Possible to Cycle with cichlids ?

[BiGBlak]

Simple i gave up on the fish less cycle added bacteria starter thinking it will do something and now im getting weird readings which i cant determine anything. Im going to drain the tank tomorrow and wanted to ask this, my issue is i dont want to add a bunch of fish im not interested in keeping in this tank. is it possible to cycle with african cichlids ? here is my plan
10-15% water change daily thats 5 gallons a day while using tetra safe start.
will this be ok ? or its not possible ? and if so how many should i start off with in a 55 gallon ? any suggestions of how i should do this will be appreciated.

ps: only reason i didnt post this in the cycling section is because i wanted it to get more replies .

[Lab_Rat]

That's not a great idea. Fishless is the way to go unless you can seed the tank with donor media.

[wolf_eyes]

That's not a great idea. Fishless is the way to go unless you can seed the tank with donor media.

I agree completely, especially with african cichlids. With these guys it's best to add them all at the same time so that no fish has a territory. I know there are ways to stock a african tank just a few at a time but there is going to be a lot of beating up on the new comers until they can claim their own area.

[SunSchein89]

One thing I know some people do is get a bunch of feeder gold fish and cycle the tank that way then just return them to the pet store when finished, though I don't know if they'll have any adverse effects on the tank water's chemistry?

[jimw/oscar]

I agree completely, especially with african cichlids. With these guys it's best to add them all at the same time so that no fish has a territory. I know there are ways to stock a african tank just a few at a time but there is going to be a lot of beating up on the new comers until they can claim their own area.

Yes it's a catch 22, one needs to overstock an african cichlid tank in order to spread the aggression around but one can't overstock a tank that's being cycled (that is if you want all your fish alive and/or healthy when it's done).

[BiGBlak]

Yes it's a catch 22, one needs to overstock an african cichlid tank in order to spread the aggression around but one can't overstock a tank that's being cycled (that is if you want all your fish alive and/or healthy when it's done).
whats wrong with stocking it with electric yellos and acei ? the two most less agressive mbuna cichlids ? a pair each ?

[Lab_Rat]

whats wrong with stocking it with electric yellos and acei ? the two most less agressive mbuna cichlids ? a pair each ?

They're still mbuna and you run a good risk of them killing each other. Overstocking for aggression is done for a reason...not to mention mbuna need good water quality and would not do well at all going through a cycle.

[dane]

ok so ive been talking with BB answering some questions for him but id just like to point this out here is what Are very own Lady Hobbs said to BB in another post

"I was just reading all your past posts regarding trying to cycle this tank. On April 2 you wrote you had been doing this already for two weeks.

Why is your ammonia again way up to 8 on your tester? This is too much ammonia just as it was too much ammonia a month ago. You do not have a bunch of bubbles when you cycle and ammonia does not cause bubbles. Some water conditioners cause some slight bubbling and also high nitrates will cause some bubbling. Pure ammonia does not so don't be concerned with bubbles, please.

Honestly........If I were you since this is not working for you is drain the tank, fill with dechlorinatored water, add your bacteria booster THEN, and add a few fish. In a couple weeks add a few more fish and move on with this tank. (Do not clean the filter.) "


another thing is people here seem to be fishless cycle nazi's im sorry but that's how it seems . Believe me i know the differences in cycles . but why even have the literature for a fish in cycle if its so looked down upon . i think he should be able to make his own decision based on how he feels as its his tank in the end all we can do is give him are advice .

also i must disagree with above african cichlids are one of the most hardy fish there is they can stand a cycle

thats all i have to say

[WhiteDevil]

Ive cycled with neons and angels before, 3 different tanks over a period of 2 years, neons died recently but had them for 3 years and my angels, well they are gracing me with weekly spawns.

Africans are very hearty fish, some of the strongest out there in terms of what stresses they can indure.

Fishless cycling is best left to those who understand it, but even if its feeder guppies you toss in to cycle it, they will be eaten later down the road or give them away on craigslist.

[Lab_Rat]

Do whatever you want, I'm just concerned for the welfare of the fish. It does not generally work out well slowly stocking African mbuna, aggression is a huge problem with these fish. If you fully stock an uncycled tank you're going to have issues too.

Feel free to call me a fishless cycle Nazi if you want; I actually care about fish and don't want to see a bunch of them die or have their life span shortened from going through a cycle. There is nothing hard about doing a fishless cycle, except the wait. Fishkeeping is about patience, nothing good happens quickly in a tank...bad things happen very quickly.

I've kept mbuna for years. They can be hardy, but they can also beat the crap out of each other in the blink of an eye. Tell me, how well is that fish going to heal up if they're in a tank that's cycling? And anyone with mbuna experience knows you can't add a couple, then a couple more, then a couple more and not expect a good bit of aggression/deaths.

[Oskar]

Simple i gave up on the fish less cycle added bacteria starter thinking it will do something and now im getting weird readings which i cant determine anything. Im going to drain the tank tomorrow and wanted to ask this, my issue is i dont want to add a bunch of fish im not interested in keeping in this tank. is it possible to cycle with african cichlids ?
What kind of fishless cycle added bacteria starter are you using? Most bacteria in a bottle is to be used with fish,or in emergencies.
What are you using for your ammonia source?
One of the best things about fishless cycling,is you can build up a lot of bacteria,and you can then fully stock your tank when the cycle has completed. This is a huge benefit when stocking Mbuna. Like others mentioned,there is no time for fish to establish territories if you add them all at once.
I would get some ammonia,and do a fishless cycle. Just adding ammonia is a lot easier than daily water changes to keep fish alive. Nothing Nazi about that.

[dane]

Do whatever you want, I'm just concerned for the welfare of the fish. It does not generally work out well slowly stocking African mbuna, aggression is a huge problem with these fish. If you fully stock an uncycled tank you're going to have issues too.

Feel free to call me a fishless cycle Nazi if you want; I actually care about fish and don't want to see a bunch of them die or have their life span shortened from going through a cycle. There is nothing hard about doing a fishless cycle, except the wait. Fishkeeping is about patience, nothing good happens quickly in a tank...bad things happen very quickly.

I've kept mbuna for years. They can be hardy, but they can also beat the crap out of each other in the blink of an eye. Tell me, how well is that fish going to heal up if they're in a tank that's cycling? And anyone with mbuna experience knows you can't add a couple, then a couple more, then a couple more and not expect a good bit of aggression/deaths.


First off its not my tank i was referring to . Also i wasn't singling you out Lab Rat not once did i say lab rat your a fishless cycle nazi did I ?? this is what i said another thing is people here seem to be fishless cycle nazi's im sorry but that's how it seems . Believe me i know the differences in cycles I CARE about the fish just as much as you . but if this is BiGBlak's choice who is to tell him No you cannot do that. right ? i guess i don't have any Mbuna experience huh ?,as I've kept them for a year so what . i added a group here and there till i had about almost 40 in my 135 that also bred and grew amazingly . never a disease either . never did i have a death or a fish beating one up till almost death . and there even less aggressive as babies / plus there is always rearranging your decor. so I'm sorry if you got mad that's not what was intended

[Lab_Rat]

First off its not my tank i was referring to . Also i wasn't singling you out Lab Rat not once did i say lab rat your a fishless cycle nazi did I ?? this is what i said another thing is people here seem to be fishless cycle nazi's im sorry but that's how it seems . Believe me i know the differences in cycles I CARE about the fish just as much as you . but if this is BiGBlak's choice who is to tell him No you cannot do that. right ? i guess i don't have any Mbuna experience huh ?,as I've kept them for a year so what . i added a group here and there till i had about almost 40 in my 135 that also bred and grew amazingly . never a disease either . never did i have a death or a fish beating one up till almost death . and there even less aggressive as babies / plus there is always rearranging your decor. so I'm sorry if you got mad that's not what was intended

You seem angry.

People here care about fish and want to help people have successful tanks. That is why many advocate fishless cycling. It's a very simple process...add ammonia and wait. I don't understand how it is complicated at all, in fact it's much easier than fish in cycling.

Obviously it is the OP's tank and choice. Hence I said for him to do whatever he wants.

When did I say you didn't have any experience with mbuna? I don't think I ever said that. I have no idea what your experience level is. Are you advocating that aggression issues with these fish are not something to worry about?

I am not mad but I don't want to see a bunch of posts from the OP asking why his mbuna are all dying in 3 or so weeks or how his fish are so mean to each other.

[Lady Hobbs]

dane, I told him that only because of his exasperation with his tank and him seeming to get no where fishless cycling that he may as well do the fish cycle. He sure was not going anywhere doing the fishless. A person CAN cyle with fish but as I explained to him in a PM, stocking with africans is not like stocking with community fish. I mentioned he could stock slowly and that danio's are a good starter but Africans are not stocked in this manner and it would be best if he planned to have africans to finish off with his fishless cycling.

No where in his earlier posts had he mentioned africans so I assumed he was wanting a community tank. This is corrected via PMs.

[dane]

You seem angry.

People here care about fish and want to help people have successful tanks. That is why many advocate fishless cycling. It's a very simple process...add ammonia and wait. I don't understand how it is complicated at all, in fact it's much easier than fish in cycling.

Obviously it is the OP's tank and choice. Hence I said for him to do whatever he wants.

When did I say you didn't have any experience with mbuna? I don't think I ever said that. I have no idea what your experience level is. Are you advocating that aggression issues with these fish are not something to worry about?

I am not mad but I don't want to see a bunch of posts from the OP asking why his mbuna are all dying in 3 or so weeks or how his fish are so mean to each other.

no I'm not angry :) really .. and honestly i didn't fish less cycle but that's before i even knew of cycling . Now i don't have to i cant just seed new filters .But Even back then i still had no deaths or bullying as stated can and most of the time WILL happen . me being lucky i know it dosent always work for everyone or should be advised .

i may have took this a different way but this is why i thought you meant i didn't have any experience with said fish

"And anyone with mbuna experience knows you can't add a couple, then a couple more, then a couple more and not expect a good bit of aggression/deaths"

but you see that's exactly what i did do add groups here and there never had a problem whatsoever .

i think with the appropriate stocking no the aggression is a normal part as they are aggressive fish that's part of being a mbuna . Also as babies there not really aggressive and by the time his fish even grow 3 inches he will I'm sure have his final stock in there or at least should .

[dane]

dane, I told him that only because of his exasperation with his tank and him seeming to get no where fishless cycling that he may as well do the fish cycle. He sure was not going anywhere doing the fishless. A person CAN cyle with fish but as I explained to him in a PM, stocking with africans is not like stocking with community fish. I mentioned he could stock slowly and that danio's are a good starter but Africans are not stocked in this manner and it would be best if he planned to have africans to finish off with his fishless cycling.

No where in his earlier posts had he mentioned africans so I assumed he was wanting a community tank. This is corrected via PMs.


fair enough i know africans are mean but with his stock yellow lab and acei there not that bad i think he should add 3-4 of acei and W/C are his friend at least everyday he should and test his parameters every day

[Lady Hobbs]

There has been a great deal of confusion over the cycling of this tank for numerous reasons.

First, ammonia was way too high which will burn a cycle out. So that was corrected, I guess.

Then he writes that he has been cycling since March 10 in one post then goes on to say that he bought a new canister filter and threw out his old filter media on March 29. 14 days ago

Another start over. And now it's the bacteria booster skewing with test results which I also state will happen. What more can I say?

[wolf_eyes]

whats wrong with stocking it with electric yellos and acei ? the two most less agressive mbuna cichlids ? a pair each ?

The only reason I suggested the fishless cycle is due to the aggression. While they are a more peaceful species of african cichlids, they are still cichlids. Even their south american cousins can be aggressive with each other. I've had a pair of bolivian rams and the male stressed the female to death with fighting.

I did read that you are getting frustrated on the fishless cycle and I can understand that. Cycling with fish can be frustrating too due to all the water changes. You will need to do 30% water changes every other day to every day if you have fish in there. I've done it before and the fish made it through fine, though I personally wouldn't do it again. I would suggest asking those with more experienced with africans, especially ones that you have dealt with the ones you are trying to stock and see how they suggest to stock. If you do plan to cycle with fish, I would strongly suggest the addition of a bacteria booster. I have use Superbac's Live! Nitrifying Bacteria a couple of times with great success so I recommend it. Get a bottle that is rated bigger than your tank and add all of it along with the fish.

[Lab_Rat]

I'm glad it worked for you, but no aggression is not the norm.

OP, is this your first tank? If so, you may want to reconsider your choice of fish as the issues that often present with these fish are not for beginners. Community tanks with peaceful fish are much easier to learn to keep than a tank full of mbuna.

[Scrup]

fair enough i know africans are mean but with his stock yellow lab and acei there not that bad i think he should add 3-4 of acei and W/C are his friend at least everyday he should and test his parameters every day

Yellow labs, while on the whole may be peaceful, are still Mbuna.

I happen to have an extremely mean yellow lab who is the boss of the tank. Before, it was my acei who was the boss of the tank. Mbuna will always be Mbuna, and will always be in the "Hyper-aggressive" category. My auratus and red tops all run from the yellow lab. This should not happen, but they are Mbuna, so expect anything.

What a "peaceful" yellow lab can do to a jewel cichlid almost twice his size, in just a few hours. Probably would have been killed if they were not separated.
19506


If this is the route you are taking, go with giant danios first. When doing a fish in cycle, you run a very high chance of losing fish. I would rather, if I had to make the choice, gamble on cheapo danios than Mbuna, its just a matter of money at this point (and danios do FINE with Mbuna usually). Let them cycle the tank, then add the others, and then, start with one species, add them (all of them, not just one at a time, otherwise you risk running into bad territorial problems), wait a few weeks for the BB to level out, then add the next species.

Be prepared to take a few of them back. It happens. If you get 3 males and one female, and you do not take two of the males back and replace them with females, you will end up with two dead males, and a few months down the road, a dead female.

I wish you luck. I would not go with more than 2-3 species if you got the rockwork for it in a 55G. Mbuna are rewarding, but are by far the most challenging fish I have ever seen.


And, I agree with labrat, having no aggression is NOT the norm, not by a longshot. Dane seems to have gotten lucky, it happens, but it is rare.

[souly]

Just buy a goldfish to cycle the tank. they have heavy bioloads anyway, then just either return them or donate them back the store. I've never seen that bad of a fishless cycle before.

[BiGBlak]

Everyone I just had nooby mistakes 1after another, my first one was nuking the tank with ammonia( 2 turkey basters full) because i mis read the testing instructions and thought bottle number 2 was a back up bottle and didnt get a reading after i added. After that i got it down 2 days after but not quite to 4ppm kinda closer to 8 when i realized it, but then didnt add water conditioner to each load i replaced and guess the chlorine from my water prevented bacteria to grow( i let this sit a couple of days thinking that the cholrine would help my ammonia level drop, until lady hobbs told me to add water conditioner). did that and waited a week and a half waiting for some kind of reading but nothing and just started to get impatient because ive read people getting atleast something to let them know that it was working. and lady hobbs said she cycled in 3weeks not sure if with bacteria from another tank or not. and knowing that the nitrites take longer to to become nitrates that ammonia becoming nitrites. i felt that since it was going on 2weeks without anything to determine if i was growing bacteria i would look into bacteria starters . the only reason i got one of those products was because i simply thought it couldnt do anything to my tank because it was bacteria ? well i added that and started getting weird readings like i will test my water it will be 4ppm ammonia then test it 5 mins later and its a dark green bluish( with a different tube to compare) that kept happening for a couple days. and now i decided to go the fish route because i couldnt determine anything after that.
Im going to be on my water changes doing them every day 15% and adding water conditioner to make sure i can do what i can to prevent ammonia and nitrite levels from getting to high.
UPDATE: i got the fish two yellow labs and two acei juvis in my tank added tetra safe start up to 75 gaallons to my tank and they looking happy getting used to the tank . i have to take one of them back 2m because he has an eye problem like its white im not sure what exactly it is but im guessing its not good so hes going to go back 2m asap. But yea wish me luck..... and thnks for the past help and future help i feel you guys will be giving me on how to help my fish survive the cycle.

[BiGBlak]

What Dane meant i think about people being nazis is this forum itself. The sticky thread itself about fish less cycling and cycling with fish . basically it list all the cons of cycling with fish and none of its pros, where it list all of the pros of cycling with out fish and none of its cons. i found a article stating both pros and cons of the two methods thats all im saying nothing exactly at lady hobbs i just feel it should be more fair for both.

[BiGBlak]

here is the article im refering to .[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[SunSchein89]

Pretty good read on another view not seen much. I think it's tough to say which is better and is ultimately a matter of opinion.

If you can keep the fish out of a "stressful" cycling tank that may get ammonia or nitrite spikes then yes that is good, but is this fish doing any better at the fish store crammed in with a bunch of other fish in a tiny tank? Probably not. I work at Petco and there are dead fish scooped out alllll the time. Someone does it in the morning and someone does it at night, so fish are constantly dying in the stores.

However, my first tank I set up and cycled I admit I had some dead fish and whether that was from me not maintaining it properly or not, I'm not sure, but I wouldn't say it's not from that. The second tank I established I cycled with fish again and this time I had a liquid test kit and kept on top of my water changes. Not only did nothing die, but my harlequin rasboras were showing signs of breeding.

So really, I guess it's a case-by-case basis on which is better and it depends on the person too. Either way an uneducated person is going to kill fish, but if you know what you're doing, I think both can be carried out properly and safely. The one situation I would think fishless would probably be better is for a lot of salt water and the rarer fresh water species because they tend to be taken better care of and kept in more reasonably stocked tanks at the stores. Probably because of their price which is a whole other issue to rant and rave about.

[Lady Hobbs]

I have never said my article was the Holy Bible of fishless cycling. It is simply one of thousands of articles to try to help you understand the process. If in question, of course follow thru with one of the other hundreds of articles on the internet.

But a person can only write so many times to always use dechlorinator, do not add bacteria boosters, and do not clean anything or mess with the tank so many times and thereafter, it's up to the reader if they want to follow the instructions or not.

I do not agree with your articles statement that:

A/ Cycling the tank with fish minimizes the work you need to do, and minimizes the things you need to do and understand to get your tank running and stable.

(I do not understand how doing a water test each day and adding a bit of ammonia each day, if needed, can be considered work.)

B/ Cycling the tank with fish poses little, if any, risk to the fish.

(REALLY!)

But this is your tank and you are to do as you wish. No one was pushing this process onto you but simply trying to help you get your tank cycled. I do wish you well and hope you are enjoying your tank and your new fish.
Good luck and enjoy.

[jimw/oscar]

whats wrong with stocking it with electric yellos and acei ? the two most less agressive mbuna cichlids ? a pair each ?

They're a lot more expensive to lose than just putting a few feeder goldfish in there to cycle the tank. You only have to see a couple of mbunas rip each other a new one once to not want to see it again and it can happen in the wink of an eye out of the clear blue. What happens when you go to add more mbunas later? Are you going to just stick with those "less agressive" fish?

I think you're opening up yourself to a world of sadness but hope it all works out, keep us posted.

[tanks4thememories]

1st off I would like to say if I ask for advice then that is what I get, advice. I can not condemn the adviser for offering requested advice whether I like the advice or not.

2nd - BiGBlak Please don't take this wrong, but you haven't given anything a chance. You keep interrupting things and mixing and matching techniques before anything has a chance to take hold. Cycling a tank is a natural process you can not make it adhere to any specific schedule. As I have mentioned in several other posts regarding your tanks Pick a method and see it through to the end following ALL of the directions that go with that method.

Here is my concern for you BiGBlak: Fishless cycling is the easiest thing to do all you have to do is follow the directions and sit back and wait and test. However you seem to be having great difficulty with this. So if you do a cycle with fish I fear you will not complete that cycle either and will end up with a tank that is fought with disease and constantly mini cycling. My neighbor has a 10 gallon it has been running for 3 months, every fish he has put in there has died, and it is still not cycled. Why? because his son keeps doing things that aren't in the directions. We all have made and will make mistakes. However getting cycled really isn't rocket science it is very simple. You only need two things: Patience and the desire to follow instructions to the letter. Just pick a set of directions and follow them. Please don't think I mean this in any bad way I only wish to save you from the frustration that is immanent if you continue things as you have been.

Now on to options: If you want to do "cycle with fish" it is actually my preferred method of cycling because I am not as patient as I think I should be...lol Plus I enjoy watching something in my tank as I wait. IMHO and I stress you are asking for advice so I am giving it. Do not use Cichlids. Use (6) Giant danios. Why? 1) They are cheap. 2) they are EXTREMELY hardy. 3) They are very active and fun to watch. 4) If you are lucky you can cycle the tank in 3 weeks and get a full refund for the fish 5) if not, Did I mention they are cheap?...lol
Now here is the key though, Read several "Cycle with fish" walk throughs and decide on the one you wish to use. Then follow it to a 'T'. Do not deviate from it at all, in any way, shape, form, or fashion...:hmm3grin2orange: and honestly you will be rewarded with a cycled tank. Honestly patience is very difficult but there is no way around it in fish keeping.

PS one exception is if you have a friend or maybe a LFS that will let you have enough of their filter media to completely stock your filter then you will be instantly cycled - the only down side here is that you will inherit any pathogens they have and it may cause you trouble in the long run. Many people do it many people don't. Its your tanks and your time and money so as always its your call:hmm3grin2orange:

Good luck bro!!thumbs2:

[Northernguy]

I think you should stick with one plan and one forum.
You are confusing yourself!lol
This is cycling a fish tank not building the Space Shuttle!
Stick with one plan and get it over with.It really is easy to do.
Good Luck.

[Brhino]

people may have missed it because he editted it into one of his longer posts, but he's got 4 mbunas in the tank now going.

[tanks4thememories]

people may have missed it because he editted it into one of his longer posts, but he's got 4 mbunas in the tank now going.

Thanx for the heads up Brhino. I'm finished on this thread series..lol.
I hope it all eventually works out for ya BiGBlakthumbs2:

[BiGBlak]

All i can say is that i am a noob and i know that i was impatient maybe for the fact i was reading other peoples journal and wondering why my tank wasnt getting anything that fast. i stalled it several ways as stated in my other post. Afteer the funky readings after i did the nieve thing and added bacteria booster i got fed up. i know it was my fault but draining my tank and waiting another month atleast to even get fish was too much on me. I got fascinated with this hobby over night for some reason and purchased my tank i believe in mid feb. so for those days of being exicited to fill it up and cycle it to the days i made those errors till yesterday when i drained my tank i just felt i had to go another route. hopefully it works out for me but yea im following the fish route word for word. if any of my mbunas die off which im hoping none will i will replace them with the cheaper danios...

[WhiteDevil]

All i can say is that i am a noob and i know that i was impatient maybe for the fact i was reading other peoples journal and wondering why my tank wasnt getting anything that fast. i stalled it several ways as stated in my other post. Afteer the funky readings after i did the nieve thing and added bacteria booster i got fed up. i know it was my fault but draining my tank and waiting another month atleast to even get fish was too much on me. I got fascinated with this hobby over night for some reason and purchased my tank i believe in mid feb. so for those days of being exicited to fill it up and cycle it to the days i made those errors till yesterday when i drained my tank i just felt i had to go another route. hopefully it works out for me but yea im following the fish route word for word. if any of my mbunas die off which im hoping none will i will replace them with the cheaper danios...

wow, ive seen that post word for word ALOT on forums lately........

[BiGBlak]

wow, ive seen that post word for word ALOT on forums lately........
yup its a gamer word lol. . .