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Plant Man
04-12-2010, 08:05 PM
I know precisely how to eliminate 90-95% of algae in my tank, maybe some of what I do, and understand to work for me, may help others to have beautifully planted algae free tanks. I posted some of this in a thread in the Algae forum and thought I’d put a modified version of it and expand on it in here as well. This is basically, all I know about the subject.

I made a lot of mistakes and learned a lot from them. The internet, with sites such as this one, is great but you really have to take the info you get and try it. See if it works for you.

The best thing to understand is that plants store energy and will continue to grow for up to a week or more after a nutritional deficiency is present in the aquarium and this is a great thing! Because this is how we can get rid of algae naturally and without using chemicals like Flourish Excel or any other algaecides. Algae are single celled organisms (thank god!) and cannot store energy; the plants that we want to grow can store energy and continue to grow, sometimes for more then a 2 weeks and that is the great news! People that buy plants and put them in there tanks that have insufficient lighting, no Co2 and who do not do regular water changes will have there plants wither and die within 1-2 weeks. Most people here that are having some difficulty, probably have many aspects of there aquariums right for growing plants but are missing the “magic ingredient”, that little piece of knowledge that would make all the difference. That piece of knowledge is “plants store energy and algae do not”.

I will tell you what I do and you can do with it, what you wish.


I’ve been trying to grow plants in my tanks for over 6 years and I’m still trying but I have figured out a few basic things that work for me every time! I do very routine water changes, same day, same time. During the cycle I do 25% afterwards I do 10-15% but keep in mind I only start a tank with just a few fish. I started my current tank with a school of Danios to get the cycle done faster; Danios are machines and can easily live through a cycling as long as you do your water changes. When my tank is cycled I put in my plants, arranging them in a way that looks as natural as I can. I start with just about all the plants I want to put in it, but I do wait to put in that one centerpiece plant so I can see how the tank is evolving and get a better idea where to put my eye attractor plant. I put the big tall ones at the back short ones near the front. Now I need to get the tank nutritionally balanced. The “balance”, we hear people say this to us all the time but what does it mean? How do we find the “balance”, and what the heck are we balancing in the first place? We are balancing nutrients and it can be much easier then you think. Does this mean we need to figure out the exact quantities of every nutrient I’m putting into the tank? NO! Fertilizer companies have done most of it for us. I hate to plug any one in particular but I have had fantastic results from Tropica Aquacare Plant nutrition. They have 2, one with, and one without nitrate and phosphate. The one with N and P must be used VERY carefully. Here is where we take advantage of algae’s big weakness; it can’t survive for more then a few hours without nutrients. At first my tank does not have a large plant population; I need to grow it into a nutrient eating machine. When my plants are first set up they are small and use up very little nutrients so I do small water changes 10% without any fertilizers. My tap water has enough of just “about” everything they need to last till I do my next water change. What my water is missing is Co2. Plants need water, light, Co2, nitrate and phosphate to grow, if you do routine water changes you’ll be getting enough of the trace elements like iron, magnesium. Most tap water has everything in it but Co2 and of course light. Light, you need to supply at least 1.8 watts. I say 1.8 because this is what my first planted tank had, you may be able to get away with less but I have no experience with that. If any of these things are missing, you’re going to have a problem. As your plants grow they use more and more nutrients. Here is the balance; you need to get your water changes in sink with your plants nutritional needs. Routine water changes that restore just enough nutrients to last for about 5-6 days leaving 1-2 days with a nutrient deficient algae killing aquarium. The nutrients that plants use up fastest are Nitrates and Phosphates. They do this by utilizing light and Co2. If you have a situation where there are no Nitrates or phosphates in the tank algae cannot grow. Without these nutrients algae will die very quickly. If that deficiency lasts longer then a week or so you run into serious trouble. And the first one that usually shows up under these circumstances is BBA. The first time I ran into BBA is when I had my first very heavily planted tank, a 29 gallon. I let the plants really take over, it was pact and really nice! I was fertilizing but with a product that did not have extra N and P in it (Nitrates and Phosphates). I had been using it with every water change for about 4 months no problems. Then one week BANG BBA shows up on day 7! I’m like “What the hell!” Well it turns out what happened was my tank was so full of plants that the food, fertilizers and water I was putting in wasn’t generating enough Phosphate and or Nitrate. I found that Tropica and other fertilizers actually do make a fertilizer that has N and P in it. So I started adding this (just a little) and the BBA died in less then a week! I can’t remember were but I read somewhere that BBA is an algae that can survive without Phosphate. This is why you almost only see it in planted aquariums.

I have a neat way to find out when to start adding fertilizer in my aquarium. When the plants start getting big I do a water change and include a small amount of fertilizer. If it’s to early my tank gets a fine covering of green hairy algae on the glass. It goes away in about 3-4 days and then I wait for the plants to get bigger and try again. As soon as the algae doesn’t show up on the glass I continue using fertilizer. I also test for Phosphate and Nitrate every week. When these start to get almost unnoticeable on my tests I do the same thing.


We all have the spores of algae’s in our tanks, what we need to do is limit for a day or two there excess to nutrients. The plants can handle it, algae cannot!

I hope this helps just one person be more successful growing plants and eliminating algae.

Aeonflame
04-12-2010, 09:06 PM
The only thing that has plagued my tank off and on are diatoms.. Have you had any success treating that using this method?

Irish2539
04-12-2010, 09:19 PM
I didnt read all of it but im very impressed! Love the way u want to understand and perfect ur Tanks Ecosystem. also good luck with water change experiment. very interested in that. I just do what feels right,,, been at it long enough. Its like when i make instant coffee, i just pour it out straight from the jar instead of using a spoon. (Yes i just compared fishkeeping to making Coffee)!!:22:

Plant Man
04-12-2010, 09:37 PM
The only thing that has plagued my tank off and on are diatoms.. Have you had any success treating that using this method?

Diatoms- the little green circles you can get on the class and slow growing plants like Anubias? Yes, they also die off but they take about 3 nutrients starvations (three weeks).

Lindsey
04-12-2010, 09:54 PM
Great thread Plant Man, thanks for enlightening me! I've had steady algae in my 29g for months now, it barely bothers me as long as I keep my front glass clean, but I get sick of the "wow what a dirty tank" comments from friends and family who see it.

Plant Man
04-12-2010, 10:14 PM
I can't believe in that massive post I forgot to mention the most important thing that makes what I do work! Co2 and lots of it, I don’t turn it off at night and none of my fish have ever had a problem. I also run it a little on the high side, 30-35ppm is a lot, you really only need 15-20ppm. But the more you have the faster your plants soak up all the nutrients in the tank and the longer period of nutrient deficiency you can have. 3 days of zero phosphate does a real number on any algae that may be in the aquarium.

You also can’t be overdoing the water changes early on and you can’t have too many fish. You’ve got to add your fish as the plants grow. The heavier the plant load the more fish you can have.

It's a controled nutrient deficient system. You control when the aquarium is nutrient deficient.

Plant Man
04-12-2010, 10:28 PM
Great thread Plant Man, thanks for enlightening me! I've had steady algae in my 29g for months now, it barely bothers me as long as I keep my front glass clean, but I get sick of the "wow what a dirty tank" comments from friends and family who see it.

You have unused Nitrate and Phosphate. If you don't want or don't have the time to deal with live plants. You can try a product called Phos-zorb. I used it while I was keeping Cichlids for a short time. It's expensive but it worked farely well, not as well as a controlled planted tank but the stuff impressed me. The algae went why down while I used it and it lasted for about 6 months.

Cliff
04-12-2010, 10:33 PM
Good post, you've given me a lot to think about.

Thx

Mith
04-12-2010, 10:36 PM
First, GREAT post, thank you!

I recently started my second attempt at a planted 50g tank. The first tank (barely any plants left LOL) was awful! Then it got BBA which was taken care off with SAE's.

I forgot what my watt/gallon ratio is, (same on this 50g as my other 50g.....exact same tanks), but I'm having a LITTLE better success for a few reasons (I'm speculating because I hardly know anything about plants). First, I'm using Flourite substrate. I'm also using Excel, Iron and Phosphate ferts. I also am using a UV light.

Now I have some plants (maroonish color) that are doing so so. I HAD those tall skinny plants (not hornwort but the thick single strand stuff) that were doing awesome at the tops, but the bases of them became yellowish and semi transparent and were breaking off, so I removed them. I have some cork screw vals that seem to be doing very well, but I have one plant that's doing AWESOME (don't know what its called).

The only thing I don't have at the moment is CO2. There is a small amount of green algae growing on the maroonish colored plants...so the jury's still out as to how they'll fare in the long run.

Lastly, I can't find ANYONE who sells the phosphate testing kit....are they only available online?

Thanks again for the thread....!!

Plant Man
04-12-2010, 11:07 PM
First, GREAT post, thank you!

I recently started my second attempt at a planted 50g tank. The first tank (barely any plants left LOL) was awful! Then it got BBA which was taken care off with SAE's.

I forgot what my watt/gallon ratio is, (same on this 50g as my other 50g.....exact same tanks), but I'm having a LITTLE better success for a few reasons (I'm speculating because I hardly know anything about plants). First, I'm using Flourite substrate. I'm also using Excel, Iron and Phosphate ferts. I also am using a UV light.

Now I have some plants (maroonish color) that are doing so so. I HAD those tall skinny plants (not hornwort but the thick single strand stuff) that were doing awesome at the tops, but the bases of them became yellowish and semi transparent and were breaking off, so I removed them. I have some cork screw vals that seem to be doing very well, but I have one plant that's doing AWESOME (don't know what its called).

The only thing I don't have at the moment is CO2. There is a small amount of green algae growing on the maroonish colored plants...so the jury's still out as to how they'll fare in the long run.

Lastly, I can't find ANYONE who sells the phosphate testing kit....are they only available online?

Thanks again for the thread....!!


I live in Toronto and I get most my stuff from Aquarium Services. I know, their way over priced, but I'm lazy.

Unless your tank is like crazy planted you probably shouldn't be using a fertilizer with Phosphate or Nitrate in it. Your tap water will most likely have enough phosphate in it already and your tank is probably generating enough nitrates to handle your plants needs. It’s generally only when you start with Co2 and your tank is getting pretty full of plant life that you start needing extra N and P. Or your scimping on the water changes and running out of some nutient.

The watts per gallon thing is a little fishy, if you’re using T-12 you would need somewhere in the 2.5 watts per gallon, T-8 in the 2 watts per gallon and T-5 is down to 1.8 watts per gallon. We get more light per watt with the newer more compact bulbs.

Plant Man
04-13-2010, 01:12 PM
Thought I would post a little time laps of my results.
I am able to control Co2 by controlling how much surface disturbance I have. I use two bottles switching one bottle every 2 weeks. My Co2 is never interrupted. You can control it; your regulator is the waters surface. The knob to turn it up or down is how much or how little surface disturbance you allow. All you need is PH and KH test kits. You can find the pH/Kh chart online. I’ve heard people say, “they just get there plants started with Co2”; it doesn’t really work like that though. Co2 is sort of like a turbo charger on a car, it's either on or it's not. Without it, it’s simply impossible to grow most plants effectively. With it, you can grow anything, with adequate lighting that is.


Check it out!

About 3 months ago when I first set it up as a planted aquarium
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]


Two months ago
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]



When I joined the site about a week and a half ago
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]



Today
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

In the next two months this tank is going to get really stupid crazy growth and I’ll be cutting out hunks of plants and tossing them in the trash! If anyone wants anything let me know.

Plant Man
04-13-2010, 01:16 PM
You can’t get this level of growth without controlled Co2.


[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]


I have it sucked into my canisters intake.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]




On the very first shot, on the right side you can just see a small group of two very green little plants. This is what they look like know.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Zilla
04-13-2010, 01:26 PM
Lastly, I can't find ANYONE who sells the phosphate testing kit....are they only available online?



I can't find them locally either and usually when I visit my LFS they are out of them. I buy mine from Big Al's, athough the odds are good that Dr.Fosters and other sites have them too.

It's a good test to have around with or without a planted tank.

Plant Man
04-13-2010, 01:34 PM
I can't find them locally either and usually when I visit my LFS they are out of them. I buy mine from Big Al's, athough the odds are good that Dr.Fosters and other sites have them too.

It's a good test to have around with or without a planted tank.


Definitely! Most plant and algae growth issues start and end with to much or to little Phosphate.

Plant Man
04-13-2010, 11:01 PM
Sunday 4th parameters,

Fertilizer 15ml of Tropica Aquacare

After
Nitrate-------just barely visible
Phosphate---virtually 0
KH----------------------7.5
GH----------------------8.5
PH----------------------6.8


An interesting update to the experiment,

I just did the second water change of the experiment on Sunday the 11th, the first water change to include testing before and after the change and the first change to include N and P with the fertilizer.


Sunday 11th parameters,

Fertilizer 15ml of Tropica Aquacare, 5ml Tropica Aquacare with N/P

Before,

Nitrate-------virtually 0
Phosphate---virtually 0
KH----------------------7.5
GH----------------------8.5
PH----------------------6.8

After,
The highest they’ve been in over a month

Nitrate------------------5.0ppm
Phosphate---------------.25ppm
KH----------------------7.5
GH----------------------8.5
PH----------------------6.8


I decided to check on this today and see what has happened.

Tuesday 13th parameters,

Nitrate-------virtually 0
Phosphate---virtually 0
KH----------------------7.5
GH----------------------8.5
PH----------------------6.8

Looks like the plants soaked up the N/P nutrients from the water in 2 days or less!

I did notice a light dusting of green hair algae on the glass though.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I’m not going to clean the glass of algae for the duration of the experiment. I hope the algae dies before the next water change. If not I’ll just do 5ml of the N/P fertilizer dropping the micro nutrients buy 75%, I’m thinking maybe I have too many micro nutrients and not enough N/P. Next water change will tell the tale.

Lab_Rat
04-14-2010, 06:31 PM
Diatoms- the little green circles you can get on the class and slow growing plants like Anubias? Yes, they also die off but they take about 3 nutrients starvations (three weeks).

Lol, diatoms are brown algae. For being an expert you sure get a lot of things wrong...

I noticed you were trying to discredit Tom Barr on another forum which makes me think there are HUGE holes in your knowledge of planted tanks.

Plant Man
04-14-2010, 10:46 PM
Lol, diatoms are brown algae. For being an expert you sure get a lot of things wrong...

I noticed you were trying to discredit Tom Barr on another forum which makes me think there are HUGE holes in your knowledge of planted tanks.

I definatly don't think I'm an expert.

I was also not trying to discredit Tom Barr. He jumped on me. I just asked if he could explain his method and I got attacked. Tom Barr, has a lot of experience and I for one respect that. However, I think he trys very hard to make plant keeping sound very complicated and I don't think that it has to be that way. I think there are a few simple things a person can do, to grow plants without a crazy amount of algae.

Lab_Rat
04-14-2010, 11:26 PM
I definatly don't think I'm an expert.

I was also not trying to discredit Tom Barr. He jumped on me. I just asked if he could explain his method and I got attacked. Tom Barr, has a lot of experience and I for one respect that. However, I think he trys very hard to make plant keeping sound very complicated and I don't think that it has to be that way. I think there are a few simple things a person can do, to grow plants without a crazy amount of algae.

Actually he breaks it down quite simply...limit the photoperiod to reduce/eliminate algae. And it works, I've reduced the intensity and length of the photoperiod on my 55g and the algae issues I was having are going away.

Algenco
04-14-2010, 11:44 PM
I definatly don't think I'm an expert.

I was also not trying to discredit Tom Barr. He jumped on me. I just asked if he could explain his method and I got attacked. Tom Barr, has a lot of experience and I for one respect that. However, I think he trys very hard to make plant keeping sound very complicated and I don't think that it has to be that way. I think there are a few simple things a person can do, to grow plants without a crazy amount of algae.


Tom doesn't "jump", but he will defend himself

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-15-2010, 12:24 AM
I agree, Tom Barr doesn't "jump" but he certainly is one of the most respected names in the hobby and has done some absolutely amazing things with planted tanks. Tom Barr has not complicated things at all, he has simplified things greatly, however he has explained the complicated processes that go on "behind the scenes" in the tank. While I'm not a huge fan of his techniques and I do not personally use them, they are tested and proven.

Plant Man
04-15-2010, 01:00 AM
I agree, Tom Barr doesn't "jump" but he certainly is one of the most respected names in the hobby and has done some absolutely amazing things with planted tanks. Tom Barr has not complicated things at all, he has simplified things greatly, however he has explained the complicated processes that go on "behind the scenes" in the tank. While I'm not a huge fan of his techniques and I do not personally use them, they are tested and proven.

We’re discussing in a post right now. Maybe he can help me with some issues I've been having with wanting to fertilize more then I've been able to. if I go over a certain dose I get algae. I'm asking him that now.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-15-2010, 01:14 AM
Are you using the EI method of dosing?

Plant Man
04-15-2010, 11:52 AM
Are you using the EI method of dosing?

Not yet, but maybe. I want to fully understand it first.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-15-2010, 10:29 PM
That would explain why Tom and you are "discussing" things right now. LOL Tom is a very very firm believer in the Estimative Index method of dosing and will encourage as many people as possible to use it. I personally do not like the method myself. I have used it and abaondoned it.

Plant Man
04-15-2010, 11:11 PM
That would explain why Tom and you are "discussing" things right now. LOL Tom is a very very firm believer in the Estimative Index method of dosing and will encourage as many people as possible to use it. I personally do not like the method myself. I have used it and abaondoned it.

What were your experiences with it? I can't imagine having that much No3 and Po4 in the tank and not getting massive algae.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-16-2010, 02:13 AM
I didn't get massive algae right away. Eventually I ended up getting hit with BBA, however for a while I was fine, no algae really to speak of, but I had to seriously adjust things because of the levels that were reached. My PO4 absolutely skyrocketed to the point that it was effecting the fish. My tank was planted to the point that my NO3 never really got above 10ppm even with the EI dosing. I ended up cutting way back on the PO4 that I was dosing. The problem that I find with the EI method is that it over estimates the amount of PO4 that is used. Apparently my plants didn't really use a lot of PO4 because it built up to the point that my test kit wouldn't even read the amount that was in my water. Ironically I have never met anyone who has had extended success with that method of dosing. Everyone I've met has had success for about a year but that's it. Beyond that, I've not met anyone doing it for 3-5 years.

Plant Man
04-16-2010, 02:18 AM
I didn't get massive algae right away. Eventually I ended up getting hit with BBA, however for a while I was fine, no algae really to speak of, but I had to seriously adjust things because of the levels that were reached. My PO4 absolutely skyrocketed to the point that it was effecting the fish. My tank was planted to the point that my NO3 never really got above 10ppm even with the EI dosing. I ended up cutting way back on the PO4 that I was dosing. The problem that I find with the EI method is that it over estimates the amount of PO4 that is used. Apparently my plants didn't really use a lot of PO4 because it built up to the point that my test kit wouldn't even read the amount that was in my water. Ironically I have never met anyone who has had extended success with that method of dosing. Everyone I've met has had success for about a year but that's it. Beyond that, I've not met anyone doing it for 3-5 years.

I think it's pretty new, yes?

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-16-2010, 02:43 AM
Been around for about 4-5 years.

Plant Man
04-16-2010, 12:27 PM
Been around for about 4-5 years.


Well, to be honest with you, it involves a lot of chemicals and right now what I'm doing if working. So I'm going to continue with my experiment and see how things go.

I think I might have jumped the gun a little with the ferts. As I have a little algae bloom popping up. Nothing I could catch on camera but I have just a tiny bit of brush on just a few leaves and fine green hair on the glass. I'll be doing a 20% change without firts this week Sun 18.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-16-2010, 09:32 PM
Well, to be honest with you, it involves a lot of chemical
Not really. I only used 4 compounds, much more effective then a broad range fert.

Plant Man
04-16-2010, 11:25 PM
Not really. I only used 4 compounds, much more effective then a broad range fert.

So you still use it, but have backed off the PO4?

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-17-2010, 12:19 AM
No, I don't use it anymore. I do still have the ferts, but I have changed things up a bit and I now take more of a Walstad approach to fertalizing my plants.

Plant Man
04-17-2010, 02:23 AM
No, I don't use it anymore. I do still have the ferts, but I have changed things up a bit and I now take more of a Walstad approach to fertalizing my plants.

Do you have a link to the Walstad approach.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
04-17-2010, 04:07 AM
It's all in her book The Ecology of the Planted Tank

Plant Man
04-20-2010, 03:02 PM
It's all in her book The Ecology of the Planted Tank

I'll try to find this book.

Thanks