What could be wrong?

[MacAnthony]

I'll give a full history since the tank isn't that old.

I got a tank (30gal) as a gift so we bought all the equipment (it was an old tank and most of it other than the tank, wasn't usable). Got the heater, a power filter (was recommended by the store), gravel. I cleaned the tank up using just a scrubber and water. We setup the aquarium with everything and ran the filter for a week and also used some cycle starter solution. I knew this wouldn't work a lot since it wasn't introducing ammonia, but it wasn't gonna hurt either.

After a week, the kids couldn't stand not having fish so we started using fish to cycle the tank and got 4 zebra danios and some live plants (I forget the name) from petsmart to get it started. One died the first day but I thought that may have just been the petsmart fish. I didn't want to introduce any more if it was toxic. I had been testing it with starter test strips and everything seemed to be fine (chlorine, nitrite, ph and hardness). The remaining 3 danios were doing fine though. After the first week they even had spawned and started showing good color that they didn't have coming home from the pet store.

I was having issues with the plants staying in the substrate so I had been changing about 10% of the water about every 3 days to put them back in the gravel. I think the problem with the plants is that we have been without a light this whole time. The old light had a starter switch and I couldn't find a replacement switch or fixture in town. Two weeks ago, I found a local petstore that ordered us one though so hopefully it will be in tomorrow.

Two weeks after the danios were in and I went in to the local petstore to inquire about the light, the kids were with and found some other fish they would like. Since the remaining danios were doing so well, I thought it would be ok to introduce some new fish and we got 3 glass catfish in the tank. Unfortunately, we didn't do much (and by not much I mean none) research with the fish and found out how sensitive the catfish could be. We did ask the petstore owner and she said if we had change the water already, they should be fine. That night we caught sight of two small snails that must have been stow aways with the plants. Two days after we got the nitrite spike on the test strip. Since then, it's been virtually non-existent on the strip.

A week later, the catfish were surprisingly doing well. Whew. So I got my arm twisted again to get some neon tetras. I have always like tetras and, even though I wanted to wait a bit more, I agreed to get a few tetras. Currently the only casualty was that first danio on day 1. We got the tetras at petsmart and not the local pet store (it's closer) and by the second night, we had lost 2 of the tetras. I thought the tank was doing so well and tetras, from what I've read, are supposed to be pretty tolerant to tank conditions. We got replacements the next day from petsmart and then that evening we had 2 tetras, the last original one, and one of the new ones that was only 4 hours in the tank, didn't make it. What was even worse was along with those 2, we also lost one of the danios.

That was yesterday. I have decided to not introduce any more fish until I have a better game plan, but I have no idea what is going on. The tank still tests fine on the strips and the catfish seem happy as well as the two remaining danios. The last tetra (only 1.5 days in the tank) doesn't look especially content or healthy which could be related to him being the only tetra in the tank, but I'm still confused as to what would affect the other tetras so dramatically.

In summary, here is the timeline.
4.5 weeks ago - setup the tank
3.5 weeks ago - introduced 4 danios
3.4 weeks ago - lost 1 danio
1.5 weeks ago - introduced 3 glass catfish, found 2 snails
4 days ago - introduced 3 tetras
2 days ago - lost 2 tetras
1 day ago - introduced 2 more tetras, lost 2 tetras and 1 danio

Current fish count:
2 danios
3 glass catfish
2 small snails
1 neon tetra


I'm completely confused and trying to learn as much as I can. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. If I left out any information that would be helpful, just ask and I will answer it the best I can.

Anthony

[cocoa_pleco]

cycling is something that you need to know. Ammonia goes up from rotting waste, then it is converted to nitrate and goes down, then you do a water change to kill the nitrate. Fishless cycling with pure ammonia would be best, but danios work alright. wait a week to add more fish to let everything out. do you have nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia test kits?


this should help

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[MacAnthony]

I had read about cycling before hand and know about the nitrogen cycle. I knew about fishless cycling but at the time I hadn't seen as good of an article on it as you have here and most of the suggested ways listed on other sites also seemed to list big draw backs. I'm a bit ashamed to say that pressure from the kids is mostly what convinced me to do this with fish.

The test strip I have was called a starter strip and tests chlorine, nitrite, ph and hardness. It doesn't test ammonia.

I have been changing the water fairly frequently already, about every 3 days I take out 10% then replace it with conditioned water and more cycling solution.

[MacAnthony]

I should add, I made a silly assumption that once I had the nitrite spike that the ammonia part should be taken care of.

[cocoa_pleco]

you need a ammonia test kit. ammonia is the most deadly substance. even small traces of ammonia are harmful to fish, but there is room for nitrate, and a tad of nitrite.

[A340]

In regards to cycling, I know alot of other members will disagree with this, but I everytime I set up a new tank I use Seachem's Stability. This enables you to put fish in the very first day and I haven't lost any fish due to New Tank Syndrome yet.

Just my .02 cents

[MacAnthony]

Is that similar to the Hagen Nutrafin Cycle product? That was what I was using already to help with the cycling process.

[MacAnthony]

you need a ammonia test kit. ammonia is the most deadly substance. even small traces of ammonia are harmful to fish, but there is room for nitrate, and a tad of nitrite.

I will get something to test the ammonia levels. The thing that has totally been confusing me is that the tetras have had such an issue right off the bat when the glass catfish, from what I've read, should be a much more sensitive fish than the tetras should be. As an update, we lost the last tetra this morning which I had expected.

[Lady Hobbs]

Cycle is not a good product and most of us here feel it does nothing.

What happened with your fish was that the danio's had started to add ammonia to the water so the ammonia was already there when you added the tetra's. They do not live well with ammonia and altho the danio's are known as a fairly good cycling fish, even they will die when ammonia gets too high. You have to do water changes of about 30% to 40% to make any difference.

In your case, your water was already toxic and you kept adding more fish which kept the ammonia building and then the nitrites. Both are toxic.

ammonia = nitrites = nitrates

[jessie]

I'm going to add my experience with neon tetras. They are not known to be very hardy, especially not for a new aquarium. I have never been able to keep these guys alive, even after adding them three months later to an already established tank. If you are looking at other species of tetras that may be better for a new tank, you may want to look at something like red eyed tetras or black tetras.

[RobbieG]

Whenever I get neons either all of them make it or most of them die within a couple of days.

I usually buy twice as many as I actually want for a tank - this usually leaves me with about the right amount after about a week or so.

[NeonJulie]

I have been lucky - or unlucky depending on POV. I've only lost 3 out of 13. The remaining 10 are pretty much chronically ill. Yesterday I went to snap photos and happily, only 1 of them seems to be having issues. I have been fighting things with them since the new year!

If all or most had died, I'd have gone with White/Golden Cloud Minnows like I first thought!!!!! They haven't died though, so I guess I'm going to keep them.

March photos... Stock 1
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Yesterday photos: Stock 2
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[MacAnthony]

Indeed. I just now noticed that in the article on this site it says both:
Neon tetras are so popular among aquarists because they are hardy fish. They are peaceful fish and rarely nip at each other or any other fish in a community tank.

And:

New fish are very delicate and chances of losing fish just after they are introduced into a tank are very high. However, once the neon tetras have established themselves, they get along quite well without too much difficulty.

I have read the hardy part in many places, but this is the first time I've heard them descibed as delicate to new tanks. Probably cause on most sites, they typically have just a paragraph blurb on them about each species.

[Chrona]

Neons used to be very hardy, but due to extreme inbreeding and the resulting horrid genetics, most are rather fragile now.

[MacAnthony]

I just tested it with the ammonia test kit. It tested as fewer than .25 ppm. I don't think it was the ammonia.

[cocoa_pleco]

Neons used to be very hardy, but due to extreme inbreeding and the resulting horrid genetics, most are rather fragile now.

Ditto. Theyre getting really sensitive like cardinals

[kimmers318]

Any ammonia in your tank can be harmful to most fish, some may be able to tolerate it, but you will likely see issues with them farther on down the line.
It really sounds like the amount of time you had the danios, wasn't long enough to build up much ammonia, and then you added the glass catfish, this is still a relatively small bio load for that tank, but when you kept adding fish, you kept adding ammonia. Eventually it will become too high, and the small water changes that you have been doing probably have just diluted things a bit. Neon tetras do not cycle a tank well, which is why you are probably losing them.
I suggest you test your water daily and be prepared to do water changes (20% or better) whenever you have ammonia. Unfortunately, this will slow down your cycle alot because you are taking away ammonia that is needed for the bacteria to grow that eats it up for you, thus you slow down all the good bacteria growth you want.
Remember too, that when this is all done, you have a cycled tank that can handle the amount of waste/fish that are currently in there. Whenever you add anymore fish your tank will have to play catch up on the bacteria levels to keep up with the increased bio load, so add slowly and in small numbers. This is where you really see an advantage to fishless cycling. The amount of ammonia you add, and the resulting growth of bacteria is much higher than a full load of fish on your tank, so when you are done you can fully stock your tank and it will be fine.

[MacAnthony]

I guess I was always under the assumption that, even if it was cycled properly and has the bacteria is in place to handle the ammonia level, that there should be trace amounts of ammonia that would register as it goes throught the ammonia/nitrate cycle. This could just be my ignorance of the process though.

I could also be reading the test wrong since it's a color matching test. It most certainly isn't as dark as the .25ppm code but the only other code is 0ppm which didn't quite seem to match the chart. I'm not sure how accurate they are.

[hungryhound]

I guess I was always under the assumption that, even if it was cycled properly and has the bacteria is in place to handle the ammonia level, that there should be trace amounts of ammonia that would register as it goes throught the ammonia/nitrate cycle. This could just be my ignorance of the process though.

You are correct in that there will be a little bit of ammonia in the water right after your fish urinate, but in a cycled tank your Bacteria colony will quickly consume it, making the actual average value of ammonia in a tank virtually 0.


I could also be reading the test wrong since it's a color matching test. It most certainly isn't as dark as the .25ppm code but the only other code is 0ppm which didn't quite seem to match the chart. I'm not sure how accurate they are.

Are you saying that your chart only has two different colors. Mine has at least 5 color choices ranging from 0 ppm to I think 2 ppm.

What ammonia test kit are you using.

As an aside. The liquid test kits are much more accurate then the paper test strips.

[NeonJulie]

Or if it's a shade in between 0 and .25, you could have something like .12ppm ammonia... it's a little high, obviously since it's showing up, and what we really want is 0. It MAY affect the neons, but mine have never been affect by the mini-cycle they went through with similar low amounts. Clearly stated above though, any amounts, even low, on a fickle fish type like neons (and I use "fickle" because some people's neons are hardy, others roll over if you wear a pink shirt *jk*) can definitely cause problems.

[MacAnthony]

Are you saying that your chart only has two different colors. Mine has at least 5 color choices ranging from 0 ppm to I think 2 ppm.

What ammonia test kit are you using.

As an aside. The liquid test kits are much more accurate then the paper test strips.

It is in fact a liquid test kit with a range of 0ppm to 8ppm but the the next level above 0 is .25ppm and the shade is definitely closer to the 0 shade, but I find it difficult to be comfortable saying it is the same shade as the 0 shade.

I'm at work, so I don't know the exact brand, but it was in a pretty generic yellow box. The LFS had this kit and a stay-in-the-water meter type.

[hungryhound]

Or if it's a shade in between 0 and .25, you could have something like .12ppm ammonia... it's a little high, obviously since it's showing up, and what we really want is 0. It MAY affect the neons, but mine have never been affect by the mini-cycle they went through with similar low amounts. Clearly stated above though, any amounts, even low, on a fickle fish type like neons (and I use "fickle" because some people's neons are hardy, others roll over if you wear a pink shirt *jk*) can definitely cause problems.


I would be willing to bet that you are correct in that it is probably between 0 and 0.25ppm, but I am not sure by what MacAnthony means when he says the "the only other color." That is why I was wondering if it might be a color down the chart, that his kit may not be showing him.

[MacAnthony]

I would be willing to bet that you are correct in that it is probably between 0 and 0.25ppm, but I am not sure by what MacAnthony means when he says the "the only other color." That is why I was wondering if it might be a color down the chart, that his kit may not be showing him.
Sorry, poorly written and bad choice of words. I meant the only other color close to the color in the test tube was the 0ppm. There weren't any values in between.

[hungryhound]

Sorry, poorly written and bad choice of words. I meant the only other color close to the color in the test tube was the 0ppm. There weren't any values in between.

Okay, I just wanted to make sure that you didn't have a defective tester. I would have to agree with NeonJulie in that it most likely a value some where in between.

I have noticed that the colors are sometimes to hard to read. I always make sure that I hold mine up to a bright light and use a white background to read them. In my experience low light levels and colors in the background can give you false readings. Of course I am sure that you already do this anyways.