Biosphere-4

[Amazon]

Well, I decided to do something ive been wanting to do for a long time. A biosphere is a completely enclosed ecosystem. The hole thing is sealed, top, bottom, sides, and back. the goal is to create a self sustaining "world". It is possible by having comsumers, decomposers, and herbivores. By completing all necessary cycles including the water cycle, nitrogen cycle, O2-CO2 respiration cycle, carbon cycle, food chain, and nutrient export cycle. By calculating correct humidity and air pressure. And making sure that the creatures inside the tank WILL breed. Because if not everything fails. All this is done very easily with a simple little setup with wroms and a plant but not a whole diverse ecosystem like im tackling. It will be 25% land and 75% freshwater. With the land mostly stocked by moss and insects and the water stocked with simple animals like bugs and maybe a few ghost shrimp. This whole project is essentially basicly its own little planet without any outside interference excep for the laws of gravity and the theory of waves. My prediction is that in the beginning some things will die out until there is an O2-CO2 equilibrium. Basically if some algae doesnt have enough CO2 then some of it will start to die off until it has enough and it goes the same way with the animals except with O2. this project will be called Biosphere-4 because Biospgere-1 is Earth, #2 is a failed project attempted by a bunch of scientists except they wanted to be able to live in it to, and #3 is a succesfull project performed by the Soviet Union.

Tell me what yall think.

[troy]

Go for it.thumbs2:

[octoxpuss]

I would also say go for it.

[Aeonflame]

And documentation with lots of photos please. We want to see how this is going.

[VoidParadigm]

Photo and video are a must.

[Amazon]

I will take lots of pics guys so dont worry.:22: Still in studying mode. Tommorrow I will start the build. I have to figure out soil type right now because if it contains to much humus it will make to much nitrogen therefore disaster. I'm thinking some fertile sand will due.

[Amazon]

I cant wait till tommorow! Anyways does anyone know what type of insect that reproduces fairly a lot, eats plants (but not a lot), and will not fall in the water. millipeeds work but last time I tried them I could never see them and they would always fall in to the water.

[octoxpuss]

I will probably end up going with ants for my project. Ants fall in the water but they have hairs on their feet that allow them to survive by lifting themself off the water. So i learned from my bio teacher.

[Amazon]

Ive thought about that, its just that ants tend to destroy the sandbed and dig it all up. I think im gonna go with some land snails because they also eat land detritus.

[octoxpuss]

I never see lands snails around here PA all i see are slugs. Slugs reproduce quite rapidly but they are really wierd when it comes to habitat.

[Rue]

Is this just a model, or an actual set-up? If it's a set-up, how big is it?

I can't think of too many insects that will thrive in such an environment...but you might have some luck with fungus gnats...

[Amazon]

no model. this is the real thing.:22:

[Rhaethe]

Anyways does anyone know what type of insect that reproduces fairly a lot, eats plants (but not a lot), and will not fall in the water.

Something to think about (maybe) is -- do you want the insects to reproduce slowly but with large quantities of young ... or in smaller batches with faster regularity?

[Rue]

Okay...not a model.

How big?

Then I can tell if fungus gnats might work.

Cockroaches won't...they'd overpopulate...not enough food...die out... leave a big rotting mess...

[octoxpuss]

If you were to use some type of soil i would suggest worms. What about stinkbugs?

[Rue]

Stink bugs probably won't work - what species were you thinking of?

[octoxpuss]

I planned to just do ants for my insect. I am still reviewing. What about termites if you put a piece of wood?

[VoidParadigm]

How would the wood get renewed?

[octoxpuss]

Somer termites start off with wood and when it runs out they turn to plants like grass. So my bio teacher told me. Aphids seem like a possibility.

[Rue]

Ants won't survive unless you start a colony with a mated queen...termites need a king and queen...

[octoxpuss]

I am getting this info and suggestions from my bio teacher at school. I was planning on ordering the ants from one of them ant farms which garuntee a colony.

[VoidParadigm]

Which ant farm is that?

Most places I know of that sell ants you have to buy a recharge once a month.

And a lot of places aren't allowed to ship Queens over State lines.

[Amazon]

hmmm... I would like something that may breed maybe monthly to bi-monthly, but id like them to only have a few babys because changes in the oxygen levels have to occur slowly. I have plants and all that ready and lots of moss. I do have a few large earthworms to add O2 to the soil for the plants. Ants or termites would not work as said before they need a queen. I think the lands snails will work. I would really like to have some flying insects and gnats seem neat but Im not sure how fast they would populate. The tank is a 10g.
Thanks guys for the help. If this project is successful ill put AC tropical fish as one of my helpers. If it is succesful maybe I can sell some smaller versions of it.lol

[octoxpuss]

Void i wish i knew. Like i said i planned to do that. I can remember tho when i was young i had an aunt farm that lived for like ever until i turned them free. (P.s. this is Amazons thread not mine.) I will soon start my own thread for our own biosphere.
I still need to do more research and stuff.
Just trying to reccomend.

[VoidParadigm]

I am aware of whose thread it is. Regardless of my posts being so far to mainly counter your own suggestions, they are relevant.

The countering one about wood was to inform Amazon that it likely wouldn't work, as you can't renew the wood.
The countering one about ants was to inform Amazon that ant Queens are hard to buy.

[octoxpuss]

What are you using for the water chamber? I was thinking about taking a 2gallon and setting it inside of a 10 and filling the 2 with water to make the lake. (in mini terms)

[Rue]

10g? Then try the gnats...even if they die off, they won't wreck the system if it's otherwise stable...

Easy enough to get a hold of too...but you do need plants...the larvae live off the roots...

[octoxpuss]

Void i completely understand. Its all cool. I dont mind to get corrected like i said i am still researching and i am glad people are helping amazon let alone me in this thread. I'm sorry amazon about wasting space on this thread of yours. I feel foolish

[Amazon]

haha lol...seriously dont worry about it. I like having lots of posts.The land and water area is divided by tons of rocks and gravel. I have a clay layer on the bottom, then the fertile soil. It doesnt leek really at all. For a water critter im going to use a colony of water beetles, the ones that eat plants and detritus. How hard is it to breed grass shrimp? (aka ghost shrimp) I catch them all the time in my pond. The gnats seem interesting ill have to get some.
i have all the plants I need now I just need to get the animals. ill have land snails, gnats, and worms, but I really need one more creature for the land area.

[Rhaethe]

Mayflies? Or do they die too quickly?

[octoxpuss]

I am not sure about the last insect but what about the smaller versions of dragonflies (now that is shooting for the stars) Ha. Anyway what do you mean by fertile soil i thought you were doing sand? Another thing what plant did you use for a water plant or did you just let algae do its thing. Do you think my idea for the water be ok or is that going to interfere with my biosphere.

[octoxpuss]

Mayflies? Or do they die too quickly?
Mayflies often die very quickly by drowning in the water. Alteast IME as trying to keep them as a pet. Ha.

[wolf_eyes]

My roommate had her ghost shrimp breed in her tank and had a few grow up into adults. THis was in a plain 10 gallon tank with ember tetras and peacock gudgeons. The main issue with them is since they have a larval form, most filters suck in the young and well... that's the end of them. However since your setup won't have such a thing you should be fine. have you thought of any other shrimp species like cherry or yellow shrimp?

[Amazon]

yeah Mayflies die after a day or so. Your idea for the water/land conversion will work. It shouldnt have any affect on the biosphere. All plants are native collected. The ones in the water are actually emersed plants(half air half water) Wolfeyes, I think the natives here will be more used to swampy area like mine so im gonna use those. Pics are coming soon.

[octoxpuss]

How are you going to keep all the water from the lake from evaporating and being absorabed by the soil and plants? I was thinking of a slant that would allow runoff the grass into the lake again.

[Rue]

You can't keep adult mayflies, fishflies, stoneflies, dragonflies or damselflies in a 10g...not enough room, too short lived, or needs too much food...

The more I think about it, the more I think only a very small fly or maybe a very small beetle...but I can't come up with a beetle species for you...

[octoxpuss]

What about a "potato beetle" I like them and they are always found on the soil and leaves of grass eating it so that could work. Hopefully. Correct me if i am wrong.

[Amazon]

The top is going to have a series of ridges to basically make "rain" so that the whole area gets wet. Now that I think of it your idea with the glass panel between land and water would not allow the water to soak from the soil to the lake so you might have to do what I did wth the rocks.
potato beetles will kill and eat to much of the plants and the CO2 levels would get way to high. Plus they lay up to 800 eggs and the larvae reak havoc on plant leaves. Millipeds and "roly polys" are absolutely perfect but the last time I used those they fell in the water and couldnt get out. plus you cant see them cause they hide under rocks all day.

[Rue]

Potato beetles feed on solanceous plants...such as potatoes...they are voracious feeders...reducing a plant to just a stalk in a short time.

You need a LOT of potato plants to feed potatoe beetles...

Not to mention, they're fairly gregarious...like to hang out in groups...

[Amazon]

treehoppers are also perfect for this setup but I can never find them especially during this time of the year. Earwigs could work but you cant see those either.

[Rue]

I think there are some plant-feeding stick insects available...those might work...but they likely won't reproduce...

[Amazon]

And we have pics!

not very good ones though and these pics dont do that moss justice. It is REALLY green

side view

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top view

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transition

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water area

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[Amazon]

and part of the land
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[jackson17]

How big is that? Looks big in one picture, small in the next haha. Either way, its very cool lol

[octoxpuss]

Great setup I like ur transition from land to water. Did u put a shell in the water to hap keep the acidity down ? Or is that just a myth.

[HeatherB]

Can you put some kind of crab in there for your last animal? A fiddler crab or something would LOVE that setup!

[troy]

For the land part use woodlouse. Also known as roly-polys or pillbugs. They are extremely easy to breed. I have a small culture of them that all I do is add dead leaves and fish food occasionally for food. They eat plants, so they might eventually eat all the plants in your biosphere. If they go in the water they'll drown though.

[Amazon]

high ph is pretty good in these setups. Unless the ph gets below 6 it is ok. I did add some crushed oyster shell so the snails can build their calcium carbonate skeleton. the setup looks simple but all this really takes some hard planning. Roly polys are good but they will drown. The tanks is a standard 10g.

[Rue]

Very cool. I'm impressed.

[Amazon]

Thanks, I added a few new plants and the original ones have sprused back up from the transplant.

[octoxpuss]

Did you figure out your last insect/animal yet?

[Amazon]

sadly no. I just cant think of one. If I only could get those treehoppers.

[octoxpuss]

today i was thinking to myself about doing a thirty gallon biodome?? To big? Ha. Also, which shirmp is better, Ghost shrimp or amano shrimp

[Sarkazmo]

Amano Shrimp require brackish water to reproduce and fresh water to live in. I find Ghost Shrimp to be less than hardy. Red Cherry Shrimp are pretty hardy and reproduce well. A couple males and a couple females would do the trick.

Most flying insects such as gnats and fruit flies will end up in the water. But most shrimp scavenge so this can take care of that problem.

I'd put in a magnetic glass cleaner before sealing. You might be able to put in a valve and put in some O2 to help out a bit.

I'm curious to see how this works out. I've thought about trying a project like this and it's going to be difficult to get it to work out at best.

Sark

[octoxpuss]

Well, woulndt regularl pond snails that you get from an actual pond take the algae away. Also, Before you completely conseal everything you are supposed to let the plants adapt to the new soil and gases so i dont think adding O2 would out the best but it could certainly work. You would be like Biosphere 7 or 8. Ha.

[Amazon]

Wow I checked the plants today and they all grew literally like 1-2 in. each! I thik this is going real good so far. I might just have to skip out on having land animals, its just a little to hard. everything either eats to many plants or falls in the water.:scry: earwigs might work though. lol and 30g biodome is definantly not to big. It would probably be more stable as well. The only real differance is that the final results would take longer to retrieve.

[octoxpuss]

I am having trouble explaining to my friedn about what animals to have. She wants to do 2 toads that live around my house the tiny ones. They only get like 1 inch big. She also said about breeding crickets in it. Which dont fall into water. Now would this work or no.

[Amazon]

The toads will definantly not work. I have thought about crickets before. But they would either breed to fast, or eat every plant you have. They eat a lot. I used to have some for fishing bait. Ill keep thinking, and keep yall updated:22:

[octoxpuss]

I knew the toads wouldnt work. No matter what i say she is like TOADS TOADS TOADS. I plan to make a densly planted "land portion" of the biosphere with lots of fast growing plants. I could always try the crickets. I mean it is 33 cents for a dozen of them. Ha. I just saw a 55 gallon craiglist and was like OOOOOOOOO maybe that is too big hahahaha.

[Amazon]

lol you would be freeking awesome if you make a 55g one. Be careful with fast growing plants though, O2 levels cant raise too fast.

[octoxpuss]

I was going to use Grass, along with a vine type plant, and some type of deep rooting plant. I was in chinese craft store today and i saw those little trees and i was like :) but then i had doubts and i turned to :(

[Sarkazmo]

Crickets wouldn't work I don't think. They're VERY dirty insects and would probably cause the whole thing to collapse due to their waste.

Sark

[Amazon]

^what he said

yep those bonsai trees are quite awesome. But they are really hard to keep, I had one once. They have to be carefully trimmed and all. But a vine plant would be neat.:shappy:

[octoxpuss]

Since i am doing a 30 gallon. Hopefully anyway, one of the teachers says they have a "30" gallon for me and my friend to use. Anyway, i am having trouble deciding on the land and water animals for the tank. Would the smaller dragonflies be too big if i get a couple of them to breed.

[UncleWillie]

Are you talking about adult dragonflies? Adults are insectivorous, just like when they are in their aquatic stages. As larva, they are are very good hunters and will eat other insects and small fish. Adult dragonflies are too large for a tank like that IMO.
Although damselflies may be what you are thinking of. Either way, Odonates are all hunters as larva.

[octoxpuss]

OK. hahaha i am kind of mooching off amazons thread which isnt cool so IT IS MY THREAD TIME. I got the tank it is a 20 high.

[Aeonflame]

I was thinking about some marsh reed type plants we have here. they would probably go great in there. I'll try to get a proper ID for you.

[Amazon]

octo, dragonflies will sadly not be able to work, damselflies too. theyre are just so many things that could go wrong. Tehy might not breed. they will probably run out of food as they atre predators. Theyre breeding cycle is really long and complicated. i just cant figure out something. Now if we had a biosphere maybe the size of a small room, almost everything would work, but in small systems you kind of have to have a perfect match.:22:

[annageckos]

Crickets won't work, they will fall in the water and drowned. You can't even keep a little tiny bowl of water around them or they will drowned. Plus they eat a ton and eat everything. I raise Blaptica dubia for my beared dragon. They are a tropical roach species, they reproduce only to the amound of food they have. I really don't know if they would work out or not.

[Amazon]

well I just found something.

So I was just walking outside in the grass to search for insects and I looked down and saw all kinds of bugs jumping around. And they are froghoppers!
Im gonna go get a lot of them. Finally my problem is solved!:19: :hmm3grin2orange:

octo check your yard. These guys are very small.

[octoxpuss]

AMAZON!!!!! UR A GENIUS. Sadly to say i dont have them this time a year but i have them mid. spring. :19:

[Amazon]

thats good. I caught 4 today and there are hundreds more. I plan on getting maybe 25-30 of them just incase of a a few dead ones. Im also gonna make the lake a lot smaller.

[raulfd4]

Good luck!

:ariel:

[superbsite]

Any update on this. I read the whole thread and found this interesting.

[Lady Hobbs]

Doubt it as the thread is two years old and the poster hasn't been here since August of 2010.