10 gallon sump

[Drumachine09]

I got to thinking, and since i am getting a fish room (yay!) and a couple of double 10 gallon shelves, that i could make a sump out of another 10 gallon tank to use for my nano and put on the bottom shelf.. Only problem is, ive been searching for the last hour and cant find a single site that can tell me what i need. Any help is apreciated.

[Drumachine09]

Ok, i found this:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Uthup_Sump_Filter.html


I get how the water is drawn from the tank to the sump via powerhead, but how is it returned?

[Chrona]

Ok, i found this:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/management/Uthup_Sump_Filter.html


I get how the water is drawn from the tank to the sump via powerhead, but how is it returned?

Usually the sump is fed by gravity, and the water is returned by the pump. You either drill a bulkhead in the 10g or put in a overflow system. I'm pretty sure the drilling is the cheapest solution, just need a glass cutter dremel bit and a half pipe of pvc to put over it. I'll see if I can find the plans, 1 sec.

EDIT: well reefcentral is down. The plans were on their forums.

[Drumachine09]

Usually the sump is fed by gravity, and the water is returned by the pump. You either drill a bulkhead in the 10g or put in a overflow system. I'm pretty sure the drilling is the cheapest solution, just need a glass cutter dremel bit and a half pipe of pvc to put over it. I'll see if I can find the plans, 1 sec.

EDIT: well reefcentral is down. The plans were on their forums.


would a powerhead work as a return, or would i need a wet/dry?

[Chrona]

would a powerhead work as a return, or would i need a wet/dry?

Not sure. Here's the article. You need to read through a bajillion responses to get to the meat though, lol

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=912378

[Drumachine09]

Not sure. Here's the article. You need to read through a bajillion responses to get to the meat though, lol

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=912378


Been reading for about an hour and im on page 7. Its a good article, but all ive seen sofar about sumps is installing the bulkhead (which BTW was very helpful, thanks chrona)

[Chrona]

Been reading for about an hour and im on page 7. Its a good article, but all ive seen sofar about sumps is installing the bulkhead (which BTW was very helpful, thanks chrona)

Keep reading lol. He will go into lighting/filtration/etc.

Btw, I found out that yes, you can use powerheads as a return pump. Make sure to get a POWERFUL powerhead though, as the height it has to pump up water can dramatically reduce GPH.

[unleashed]

personally I wouldn't use a powerhead for a return pump - most are too weak to pump against gravity. You would be better off getting a small submersible Eheim pump as your return

BTW, What size tank do you have?

[Drumachine09]

its a 10 gallon.

how much can i expect to pay for a decent pump?

[Drumachine09]

Ok, i have gotten through most of the "meat", if you will, of the articel, and i havnt seen any way to turn the sump into a filter. Any suggestions?

[Chrona]

Hmm, I thought that was the article where they tell you how to make one out of a 10g tank. I guess not. Well, I don't know, so I'll throw related links your way until someone shows up ;)

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/gt/index.php

http://www.melevsreef.com/allmysumps.html

[Drumachine09]

The article you sent me first was good. It showed how to drill and install a bulkhead, but his sump box was a small rubbermaid container with a chunk of LR in it. The second link you just sent me had a really helpfull diagram, and i think i am getting the jist of it.

[genitor]

This wet-dry is way better and easier to build.

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67797

And you can make an overflow from pvc without drilling your tank:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61364
this one sucks from the bottom of the tank

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15733
this one sucks from the top of the tank

[Drumachine09]

Well, now im kinda torn between the lines on thisone. Would i still do a bulkhead as described in the first artical chrona sent me? And could i scale it down realistically?


I like the little scrubber pads though! lol

[Chrona]

Well, now im kinda torn between the lines on thisone. Would i still do a bulkhead as described in the first artical chrona sent me? And could i scale it down realistically?


I like the little scrubber pads though! lol

Yes, a sump is just a container. It can be made into a wet/dry, refugium, macroalgae farm, whatever you want depending on what you put in it. You still use the bulkheads and the overflow in all cases.

[Drumachine09]

Yes, a sump is just a container. It can be made into a wet/dry, refugium, macroalgae farm, whatever you want depending on what you put in it. You still use the bulkheads and the overflow in all cases.


So a wet/dry would be the way to go?


All ive seen pump wise is huge ones for big tanks. What would i idealy need for a pump. I could go to a harware store and find a small pump, but i dont know if that would work.

[Chrona]

So a wet/dry would be the way to go?


All ive seen pump wise is huge ones for big tanks. What would i idealy need for a pump. I could go to a harware store and find a small pump, but i dont know if that would work.

It's up to you. You could also grow a tankful of chaeto. That'd kill your nitrate levels like that, lol.

I would get an aquarium return pump as I don't know how other pumps are made, and if they will leech oil or whatnot. Just look on Dr. Foster and Smith's website.

[Drumachine09]

It's up to you. You could also grow a tankful of chaeto. That'd kill your nitrate levels like that, lol.

I would get an aquarium return pump as I don't know how other pumps are made, and if they will leech oil or whatnot. Just look on Dr. Foster and Smith's website.


K, will do.


And what is Chaeto

[Chrona]

K, will do.


And what is Chaeto

chaeto = macroalgae commonly used in sumps to absorb nitrates.

[Drumachine09]

I couldnt find anything on Dr.f&s, so i googled it and came up with this:

http://www.vividaquariums.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=04-2940-1

Would 220 gph be overkill, or do you think that is at 0 head?

[Chrona]

I couldnt find anything on Dr.f&s, so i googled it and came up with this:

http://www.vividaquariums.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=04-2940-1

Would 220 gph be overkill, or do you think that is at 0 head?

Aim for like 300gph. The gph rating drops by like 1/2 on most pumps at 3-4 feet.

[Drumachine09]

Aim for like 300gph. The gph rating drops by like 1/2 on most pumps at 3-4 feet.


So get the "quiet one 1200" then? This sure would provide a crudload more filtraton than the penguin 100

[Chrona]

So get the "quiet one 1200" then? This sure would provide a crudload more filtraton than the penguin 100

Was just a guess. Ask around a bit more, I'm not an expert on sumps, heh.

[Drumachine09]

Was just a guess. Ask around a bit more, I'm not an expert on sumps, heh.

Ill see if i can track down fishwhisperer. He comes on every now and then, but doesnt talk.

Edit: NM that, he hasnt been on since the end of march. Dang. Wheres reptile guy go?

[genitor]

Yes, a sump is just a container. It can be made into a wet/dry, refugium, macroalgae farm, whatever you want depending on what you put in it. You still use the bulkheads and the overflow in all cases.

If you use the pvc overflow to take water from the tank and a pump to return water to the tank no bulkhead and no drilling of tank is needed.

[genitor]

Find out what turn-over rate you need, then measure the height from the sump to the main tank and find a pump that matches as close as possible or just a bit more to be sure. If the flow-rate of the pump is too high you can either connect a ball valve to it to reduce the flow-rate or tee off the output and run one back to the sump. Here's a link explaining it more in depth, hope it helps:

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47105

[Chrona]

If you use the pvc overflow to take water from the tank and a pump to return water to the tank no bulkhead and no drilling of tank is needed.

If you just use an overflow pipe going over the edge, your tank will flood if/when the siphon breaks, ie in the case of a power outtage or a brownout. If you do an in tank overflow with drilled bulkheads as show in the first article, this will not happen.

[Drumachine09]

If you just use an overflow pipe going over the edge, your tank will flood if/when the siphon breaks, ie in the case of a power outtage or a brownout. If you do an in tank overflow with drilled bulkheads as show in the first article, this will not happen.

I was also told if a peice of detritus or a dead fish got stuck in the "u" tube, then the tank would flood. I would rather drill it.


(plus i get to use the dremel tool =P)

[genitor]

If you just use an overflow pipe going over the edge, your tank will flood if/when the siphon breaks, ie in the case of a power outtage or a brownout. If you do an in tank overflow with drilled bulkheads as show in the first article, this will not happen.

If you look at the link to the pvc overflows that i posted you will see that they are designed so that the siphon will not break if the power goes out but a certain tank level will be maintained. They keep water in the pipe so that when the power comes back on and the pump starts to return water to the tank, the tank level will rise and the siphon will continue.

[genitor]

I was also told if a peice of detritus or a dead fish got stuck in the "u" tube, then the tank would flood. I would rather drill it.


(plus i get to use the dremel tool =P)

This is true but the same thing can happen with a bulkhead.

[Drumachine09]

This is true but the same thing can happen with a bulkhead.


Not if you do it the way the guy on chronas link showed.

[Chrona]

If you look at the link to the pvc overflows that i posted you will see that they are designed so that the siphon will not break if the power goes out but a certain tank level will be maintained. They keep water in the pipe so that when the power comes back on and the pump starts to return water to the tank, the tank level will rise and the siphon will continue.

Think about it. It's just like a gravel vac. When the power goes out, the water will continue to flow out of the tank into the sump until the siphon breaks. At that point, the water level will be below that of the uptake. Thus, when the power goes back on, the return pump will pump all of the sump water into the tank and because the siphon broke, none of it will be returned to the pump. You can make the intake really deep, thus avoiding siphon breaking, but that would result in the sump flooding as nearly all of the tank water would go into the sump.

The only way you can avoid this is with a true "overflow" The water literally has to crest over into some container first before it is siphoned. In the case of the bulkhead, you can drill it so it intakes the water at a very low point so the siphon never breaks without the above issue.

[genitor]

Think about it. It's just like a gravel vac. When the power goes out, the water will continue to flow out of the tank into the sump until the siphon breaks. At that point, the water level will be below that of the uptake. Thus, when the power goes back on, the return pump will pump all of the sump water into the tank and because the siphon broke, none of it will be returned to the pump. You can make the intake really deep, thus avoiding siphon breaking, but that would result in the sump flooding as nearly all of the tank water would go into the sump.

The only way you can avoid this is with a true "overflow" The water literally has to crest over into some container first before it is siphoned. In the case of the bulkhead, you can drill it so it intakes the water at a very low point so the siphon never breaks without the above issue.

I drew a diagram to explain how it works:

1377

The check valve is used to remove air to start the siphon. The red line shows the water level if the power goes out. The pipe will remain filled with water so that when the power comes back on and the water level in the tank rises the siphon will continue. The 1" pvc pipe acts as the 'container' you explained above. It works the same as an overflow box that you can buy and hang onto the back of your tank, it's just made of PVC.

[Chrona]

I drew a diagram to explain how it works:

1377

The check valve is used to remove air to start the siphon. The red line shows the water level if the power goes out. The pipe will remain filled with water so that when the power comes back on and the water level in the tank rises the siphon will continue. The 1" pvc pipe acts as the 'container' you explained above. It works the same as an overflow box that you can buy and hang onto the back of your tank, it's just made of PVC.

Ok, I see what you are talking about now. However, that seems like it would take a bit more work, since you'd need to make an overflow box that hangs on the outside of the tank on top of the regular plumbing. An in tank overflow just involves a half pipe of pvc.

[genitor]

Ok, I see what you are talking about now. However, that seems like it would take a bit more work, since you'd need to make an overflow box that hangs on the outside of the tank on top of the regular plumbing. An in tank overflow just involves a half pipe of pvc.


By overflow box you mean the 1" PVC pipe?

[Chrona]

By overflow box you mean the 1" PVC pipe?

Ah, ok, that's what I get for not looking carefully at the diagram lol. That's a pretty sweet idea actually. I see now. I still think a drilled bulkhead would look better (no visible piping) but I guess both options are viable.

[genitor]

Ah, ok, that's what I get for not looking carefully at the diagram lol. That's a pretty sweet idea actually. I see now. I still think a drilled bulkhead would look better (no visible piping) but I guess both options are viable.

I agree, a drilled bulkhead looks better and both options are viable. The reason I will go with the pvc overflow is I don't like the idea of drilling a tank and more importantly I like that the PVC overflow can be made to suck from close to the bottom of the tank where the heavier waste collects.

[Fishguy2727]

I did not read all these posts, but for sumps you need an overflow to get the water form the tank to the sump. This has to be setup so that it will only overflow what the pump in the sump sends back up to the tank. Once the water overflows out of the tank it goes through some media and ends up in the sump. A pump sits in the sump and pumps water back up to the tank

[Drumachine09]

I did not read all these posts, but for sumps you need an overflow to get the water form the tank to the sump. This has to be setup so that it will only overflow what the pump in the sump sends back up to the tank. Once the water overflows out of the tank it goes through some media and ends up in the sump. A pump sits in the sump and pumps water back up to the tank


I knew that much. However i need to plan a realistic wetdry to fit a 10 gallon. i also need to choose a good pump. Any suggestions?

[Dave-id]

I'll be building a ten gallon sump as well, but not for another few months. I'd been considering the quiet 800 so far. I don't need a huge amount of flow, and noise is a concern. At three feet of head, it would pump about 100 gallons.
[/img]http://www.pentairaquatics.com/products/detail/quiet_one/Q1_images/800_flow_ft.jpg[/img]

Does anybody know where you can get the bulkead fittings? Are there any hardware stores that carry them or are they a specialty aquarium store thing?

[Dave-id]

Oh, the image doesn't work, what did I do wrong?

[Dave-id]

I hope drumachine doesn't feel I'm hijacking his thread, but I've got some questions about biological filtration for everybody to ponder.

Is there such a thing as too much?

I see a couple of things that could happen:
1. A huge amount of bacteria will eventually develop, and your tank will be stable as heck. You could dump a spoon full of rotting fishguts in there, and you wouldn't even get an ammonia spike.
2. You will have the same amount of bacteria as with a normal setup. There is a maximum amount of bacteria that your tank will support, no matter how much media you provide for them. You may even have a problem with them being too spread out / diluted?

Media?

Ceramic rings, or "biomax" are used regularly in cannister filters. The marine guys all use those bio-balls instead. They also leave a about a third of them above the water level, and use drip plates to keep a constant trickle of water over them. The bacteria that develops on the submerged balls is different than what's going on in the upper levels. So should I stick to the biomax? Or go for some of those balls?

Bio-wheels - I love biowheels. I've had a couple of eclipse canopies, and they worked great (except that condensation dribbled out the sides and the pumps eventually failed). I think a sump would be a great place for a biowheel, anybody see a problem with that?

Here's a quick sketch in mspaint. It's not complete, or to scale or anything it's just supposed to show the relative location of the basic filtering components. I may also want a drip plate above the biological media to even out the flow.

[Drumachine09]

http://www.coralforum.com/forums/images/smilies/hijacked.gif

[Dave-id]

Hey, have you decided how much flow you want? Most pumps have charts available to show you how much flow you can expect at a given head pressure. I'm not sure how big a "nano" is; my sump's going to be for another ten gallon, and I don't want to create too much current in it, so I feel 100 gph would be sufficient. I can modify the design of the sump to work efficiently with low flow if I have to.

[Drumachine09]

A nano is any reef tank under 20 gallons. Mine happens to be 10 gallons.


Im still tossing around the sump idea.

[Dave-id]

If you're still looking for a pump, here is a pretty good list; they all seem to have flow charts.
http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/