Water chemistry

[hungryhound]

You know, I thought water changes were suppose to help remove toxins from the tank!

So yesterday we did our weekly 50% water change on the 46g. All we did was take out 50% of the water and scrape the algae off the glass (yes, the algae is still winning).

Our last full parameter check was earlier on the week and we had the following results:
pH: 7.0
Ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0-0.25ppm
nitrate: 10ppm
A later check had shown that nitrites were down to 0ppm (this is good since we'd been battling them earlier in the week).

This morning we come down to our tank to find everyone skimming along the top of the tank. This of course brings out the test kits:
pH: 6.8
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0.25ppm
nitrate: 20ppm

We are completely baffled! Why in the world would we have slightly elevated nitrites following a water change, not to mention the high nitrates????

A quick test of the tap water revealed:
ammonia: 0ppmnitrites: 0ppm
nitrates: 20ppm
The nitrates really puzzle me....so basically every time I do a water change I'll be adding a substantial amount of nitrates into the tank (I guess it's a good thing we have a planted tank!).

Anyone have any suggests or comments. I can't handle the constant spikes every time we do a water change (and I know my fishes are getting sick of it!). :confused:

[Lady Hobbs]

Test your water right from the tap. You may have it there and of course is turning back to nitrates in your tank.

[Chrona]

Is the substrate being disturbed during water changes at all? Are you vacuuming and stirring up stuff?

Next time you do a water change, try not scraping any algae. I guess it is possible that algae dieoff causes a mini spike, though it's unlikely.

[hungryhound]

Test your water right from the tap. You may have it there and of course is turning back to nitrates in your tank.

We tested the tap water and this is what we saw:
ammonia: 0ppm
nitrites: 0ppm
nitrates: 20ppm

So other than the nitrates our tap watter looks fine.....

[hungryhound]

Is the substrate being disturbed during water changes at all? Are you vacuuming and stirring up stuff?

Next time you do a water change, try not scraping any algae. I guess it is possible that algae die off causes a mini spike, though it's unlikely.

We did not disturb the substrate this week (just picked up the periodic stone here or there). The only thing we did was thin out the Vals.

On the next water change we'll leave the algae alone....sigh...

[Chrona]

We did not disturb the substrate this week (just picked up the periodic stone here or there). The only thing we did was thin out the Vals.

On the next water change we'll leave the algae alone....sigh...

Algae is best left alone imo (or use fish to eat it). They'll eat themselves to starvation at some point. I've long since given up on removing algae manually, and I only had a 10g ;)

[hungryhound]

Algae is best left alone imo (or use fish to eat it). They'll eat themselves to starvation at some point. I've long since given up on removing algae manually, and I only had a 10g ;)

Yea...it's just so hard to leave it alone when you're having trouble seeing clearly into the tank (you know how it creates that thin film on the glass)!

[Lady Hobbs]

Sitting here thinking about this and it's possible those large water changes and cleaning is tossing you into little mini-cycles. The ammonia eating bacteria is plentiful (plus the plants) so your ammonia would drop almost immediately but the nitrites will remain until that bacteria can eat it up again and then the higher nitrates.

Tanks are very touchie the first 3 months and it doesn't take much to toss them off again. Right now in my recently set up tank, I am doing only about 20% changes and just holding the vac above the gravel.

[Chrona]

Yea...it's just so hard to leave it alone when you're having trouble seeing clearly into the tank (you know how it creates that thin film on the glass)!

Is the film green? You can't do much about that stuff, since it reproduces so quickly via spores, and the stuff you scrape off the glass goes waterborne and resticks onto another surface shortly afterwards.. It does go away after about 2-3 weeks of leaving it alone though. The process seems to take longer the more you remove it, as I've noticed. Why this is I'm not sure, but I would guess it uses up a certain element needed for growth at some point.

[hungryhound]

Sitting here thinking about this and it's possible those large water changes and cleaning is tossing you into little mini-cycles. The ammonia eating bacteria is plentiful (plus the plants) so your ammonia would drop almost immediately but the nitrites will remain until that bacteria can eat it up again and then the higher nitrates.

Tanks are very touchie the first 3 months and it doesn't take much to toss them off again. Right now in my recently set up tank, I am doing only about 20% changes and just holding the vac above the gravel.

Hm....that's a thought...the tank is reaching it's 3 month Birthday.....we could go back down to smaller water changes and see if we can't get things to hold constant.

part of the reason we'd upped the water change size was the huge swings we were seeing in nitrites (i.e. they were hitting about 1ppm overnight!) and we were trying to bring them down by half....never mind they seemed to go right back up....

[hungryhound]

Is the film green? You can't do much about that stuff, since it reproduces so quickly via spores, and the stuff you scrape off the glass goes waterborne and resticks onto another surface shortly afterwards.. It does go away after about 2-3 weeks of leaving it alone though. The process seems to take longer the more you remove it, as I've noticed. Why this is I'm not sure, but I would guess it uses up a certain element needed for growth at some point.

It's mostly green, though I do still think their's a little bit of brown algae present (I know for this we just have to wait for the tank to be depleted of silicates). We're also gotten into a good routine with dosing of fertilizers, so we might just have to wait for everything to reach an equilibrium and start out competing the algae....

[Chrona]

Are you dosing dry ferts? You aren't dosing Seachem Nitrogen by any chance are you?

[hungryhound]

Are you dosing dry ferts? You aren't dosing Seachem Nitrogen by any chance are you?

We're dosing dry ferts every other day with Flourish dosed between (plus one day of rest).

[Chrona]

Hmm, not sure then. Algae die - off is the only thing that comes to mind, unless your test kits are faulty. Man, you really have a knack for weird problems ;)

[hungryhound]

Hmm, not sure then. Algae die - off is the only thing that comes to mind, unless your test kits are faulty. Man, you really have a knack for weird problems ;)

Gee thanks :18:

The sad part of all this is we have a little 5 gallon for our beta and have yet to have any problems with it (knock on wood!).

Not to mention I think we've been bite by the multiple tank syndrome bug.....my wife loves angel fish and clown loaches and so we've debated about setting up a 55g in our bedroom, but I don't dare try and set up another tank until we can get this one under control!

We'll try leaving the algae alone and see if that helps. Sigh.....

[hungryhound]

Is the film green? You can't do much about that stuff, since it reproduces so quickly via spores, and the stuff you scrape off the glass goes waterborne and resticks onto another surface shortly afterwards.. It does go away after about 2-3 weeks of leaving it alone though. The process seems to take longer the more you remove it, as I've noticed. Why this is I'm not sure, but I would guess it uses up a certain element needed for growth at some point.

My wife took a few pictures of the tank today, as she was wondering if it would be possible to scrape the tank, or if other measures should be taken because she thinks the tank looks a little green. The water is clear, it just looks green due to the green on the glass.

On a brighter note the tank is mostly green, with almost all of the brown having subsided and the black brush algae seems to have died off completely. It now seems that we have simply replaced one form of algae for another as we now have hair algae!

Is the general consensus that we should leave the algae to prevent a mini cycle from happening or can we scrape our tank?

Below are two of the pictures...the first is of the hair algae and the second is os the whole tank (you can see nicely where the algae starts and stops on the back of the tank).

Thanks all!

[Chrona]

Holy sh-- lol. I did not realize how bad it was. I'd recommend just getting a ton of cheap fast growing stem plants like anacharis or hygrophila and sticking them in the tank for now to outcompete them. It shouldn't be more than like 10 bucks shipped for a giant bundle of this stuff because it grow like a weed. It looks like the tank is a bit understocked in terms of plants given your lighting, thought you had more than that actually, heh. That + water changes when you can (the extra plants will work much better). How much are you feeding btw? Vacuuming the gravel?

You can manually remove algae if you want. The problem with the film algae is that a lot ends up getting into the water. That's not so much the case with hair algae, so removing it manually may be a good choice, though not a long term solution. The ammonia/nitrite spike after algae scraping was just a random guess, not really based on anything.

[hungryhound]

Holy sh-- lol. I did not realize how bad it was. I'd recommend just getting a ton of cheap fast growing stem plants like anacharis or hygrophila and sticking them in the tank for now to outcompete them. It shouldn't be more than like 10 bucks shipped for a giant bundle of this stuff because it grow like a weed. It looks like the tank is a bit understocked in terms of plants given your lighting, thought you had more than that actually, heh. That + water changes when you can (the extra plants will work much better). How much are you feeding btw? Vacuuming the gravel?

Yeah it really has gotten bad in the last few days. I think part of my problem with it was that I needed to redo my CO2 reactor. My pH was up about .5 a point.

I will think about picking up some cheap stem plants. tomorrow is the Eastern Iowa Aquarium association auction that we are going to so i may be able to pick something up relatively cheap. I agree that we do not have any really fast growing stem plants. The ones that we do have do not seem to be growing very fast. I tried adding riccia flutens the other day, but it was too messy and was removed.

In answer to your fertalizer question, i am doing the EI method.
Sat, Mon, Wed, 1/8 tsp k2so4, K2po4 (i think that is correct, it is the pottassium and sulfate anyways).
sun, tues, thursday 10 ml flourish
rest on friday
50 percent water change on saturday


You can manually remove algae if you want. The problem with the film algae is that a lot ends up getting into the water. That's not so much the case with hair algae, so removing it manually may be a good choice, though not a long term solution. The ammonia/nitrite spike after algae scraping was just a random guess, not really based on anything.

Okay, I was kind of set on scrapping it, but my wife wanted to put the question to the board.

I think the bigger issue is keeping it from growing so I do not have to scrape every week. You suggestion to get more stem plants confirms what i was thinking and I think that i may have to try that.

I only wish that I could talk my wife out of the stupid plastic laog as it takes up one quarter of my substrate. It may be that i will need to sacrifice some of these small swords to make room for the stem plant but if so so be it. When they start growing there will be too many of them anyways.

thanks for the response.

[Chrona]

NP, I think the stem plants will take care of the hair algae situation just fine. The green film will go away by itself after 2-3 weeks without touching it (takes longer if you do scrape it, but obviously will not be as much of an eyesore :P ). You could make an in-line reactor out of pvc tubing too, very efficient and similar to the Rea Sea one, but much bigger.

Also, cut down a little bit on the dosing regime (to say 1/16 tsp of po4 and k, and 1/8 of nitrates). Those numbers were meant for a heavily planted tank, and I'd say your's is medium atm.

[hungryhound]

NP, I think the stem plants will take care of the hair algae situation just fine. The green film will go away by itself after 2-3 weeks without touching it (takes longer if you do scrape it, but obviously will not be as much of an eyesore :P ). You could make an in-line reactor out of pvc tubing too, very efficient and similar to the Rea Sea one, but much bigger.

Also, cut down a little bit on the dosing regime (to say 1/16 tsp of po4 and k, and 1/8 of nitrates). Those numbers were meant for a heavily planted tank, and I'd say your's is medium atm.

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you're saying about the in-line reactor, but I think my first order of business is getting a pressurized CO2 system.

We aren't currently dosing nitrates so that's defiantly not a problem, but where in the heck am I supposed to find a 1/16tsp?!?!?!!?!

[Chrona]

Thanks for the reply. I understand what you're saying about the in-line reactor, but I think my first order of business is getting a pressurized CO2 system.

We aren't currently dosing nitrates so that's defiantly not a problem, but where in the heck am I supposed to find a 1/16tsp?!?!?!!?!

About 1/4 of a 1/4 teaspoon measuring spoon ^_^ . It's not an exact science. I eyeball it when I can't find the spoons. ;)

[hungryhound]

About 1/4 of a 1/4 teaspoon measuring spoon ^_^ . It's not an exact science. I eyeball it when I can't find the spoons. ;)

I could do that but, if i am going to have to guess I would rather eyeball half of an 1/8 tsp. :)

My wife really likes the wisteria in your tank. i know that it is a fast growing plant, but do you think that it would be a good one to add, or should I go with something really fast growing like anachris or cambomba?

[Chrona]

I could do that but, if i am going to have to guess I would rather eyeball half of an 1/8 tsp. :)

My wife really likes the wisteria in your tank. i know that it is a fast growing plant, but do you think that it would be a good one to add, or should I go with something really fast growing like anachris or cambomba?

If you have lots of room, wisteria is great, but if it's cramped and can't spread all the fronds, it looks like a jumbled salad imo. The bottom fronds tend to end up looking that way anyways but they get covered up. It does not grow as fast as anacharis or hygro though and it can grow in weird directions if you do not have uniform lighting over the tank. (ie in my tank, it grow SIDEways until it gets right below the light, then it grow up lol) Pretty hard to kill the stuff though. I can butcher/trim it however I want and it'll come right back.

[hungryhound]

If you have lots of room, wisteria is great, but if it's cramped and can't spread all the fronds, it looks like a jumbled salad imo. The bottom fronds tend to end up looking that way anyways but they get covered up. It does not grow as fast as anacharis or hygro though and it can grow in weird directions if you do not have uniform lighting over the tank. (ie in my tank, it grow SIDEways until it gets right below the light, then it grow up lol) Pretty hard to kill the stuff though. I can butcher/trim it however I want and it'll come right back.

Thanks, I'll have to see what I can find tomorrow at the action and/or our LFS.

[hungryhound]

So we are still battling the algae outbreak. I was recently gone for an extended weekend and came home to find the tank worse than when I left. The diatoms are still present in sufficient quantities and I have what I believe is a wonderful outbreak of staghorn algae.

I know that one of the main problems that my tank has is that the triangle of CO2, lighting and ferts is out of whack. I also know that the best way to combat this is to get a pressurized CO2 system to balance out my tank, but this was put on hold with my trip out of town.

I'm trying to figure out what I need to do in the meantime to reduce my algae load. Current steps that have been taken are as follows:

*lighting has been reduced from 192 watts to 96 watts
*fertilizer dosing was stopped during my time away, however, since i have returned I added a full dose of trace and macs (IE method-no KNO3)
*Both last week and today I have attempted to manual remove as much of the staghorn as possible

The most amazing thing about my trip away was that my plants have finally started to wake up and I saw more growth in the 6 days I was gone than I had seen in the past month. Hence the reason I thought it would be a good reason to add a full dose of ferts to help keep them growing at their max potential.

I am trying to figure out what I want to do next. I do not want to scrape the algae off the sides of the tank until Saturday t my scheduled water change. Attached are pictures showing how bad the situation has gotten. Would it help to do a 24hr blackout or should I keep the lights on to allow my plants to try and out compete the algae?

Disclaimer: The pictures make the tank water appear green, but I can assure that the green tint is the result of the green algae and diatoms on the glass, hence my problem.