i am ready to quit...

[frank_zappa]

sorry for the huge rant:

it seems like since day 1 when i started this hobby a year and a half ago, i have been dealing with something that is making my fish itch. i have posted about this several times in the past, and have followed the advice of a lot of the people on here who have a huge wealth of knowledge, a.c. mods and helpers etc. there are not and have never been signs of ich associated with the flashing; i tried treating it as that in the past with no luck. i was told it was velvet, so i forced them to live in total darkness with very little food for a week before trying to treat them for velvet. still, i would always see fish flashing from time to time. there are no visible symptoms, no ich spots. when i shine them with a light i see no signs of velvet. no redness around the gills, no rapid breathing, just fish flashing a lot. dont tell me fish get itchy too, i know that. this is way more than normal itching.

something obviously went around between my 3 tanks and is now seemingly only present in my 29 gallon. im not seeing flashing in any other tanks but all my corys in the 29 are flashing. no signs of it from the golden dwarf or the pleco, just the corys now. 2 weeks ago i treated the tank with prazi pro, thinking that perhaps the problem was gill flukes. they still are itching like crazy.

last night, i decided i was going to give my best effort to kill whatever is making my corys flash; im sick of watching it go on and on. it must drive them crazy too. i set up my empty 10 gallon and put 7 gallons of water and the dechlorinator in it and ran 2 airstones. i waited til the temps matched and then i added the meds to the tank. i used 2 Tsp/gallon of formalin and 2 Tsp/gallon of malachite green. i put every fish from the 29 gallon into the med bath for 50 minutes, the max time the bottle recommended. while i did that i changed out all the water from the 29 gallon. after the 50 minutes i put them back and ran airstones overnight.


i have no idea what to do. i have corrected all the stupid mistakes i used to make. i keep my parameters perfect. my tanks are understocked. i never overfeed.

i get home today, and i just watched one of my corys scratching on the substrate for about a minute straight, and a few others are flashing as well.
what is wrong with my fish?!?!? please help me figure this out...i am at a total loss and want to quit

[octoxpuss]

Ok, so you say that they are flashing with No signs i got this. Next thing how old are your air pumps that you are using and what type.

[MCHRKiller]

What is your specific water parms? Are you using dechlorinator....if so what brand?

With no apparent sign of illness, I would look to possible contaminants in your water source. Your water company could be putting in more chlorine/chrloramine than your dechlor can handle thus it is irritating the gill tissue of the fish.

[frank_zappa]

yeah, flashing with no other symptoms...and i have tried a few different treatments and i have also been careful to always keep up with water changes. sometimes they only flash a little and i think it is nothing, it was like that for the past few months and i just said i wasnt going to treat with anything but water changes. then the past couple weeks it has been increasing and i tried treatment.

*the air pump that i was running is a chainstore brand and it runs two stones. it is maybe 8 months old and ive only used it on a few occasions.

[frank_zappa]

What is your specific water parms? Are you using dechlorinator....if so what brand?

With no apparent sign of illness, I would look to possible contaminants in your water source. Your water company could be putting in more chlorine/chrloramine than your dechlor can handle thus it is irritating the gill tissue of the fish.

pH 7.3
nitrites 0
ammonia 0
nitrates 10

i use tetra aquasafe, maybe too much actually

[MCHRKiller]

Try switching to some Seachem Prime, it removes not only Chlorine and Chloramine but a host of other heavy metals and things from tap water...its also much more concentrated than the Aquasafe. I would add 3X your tank volume and wait 24hrs and see how the flashing goes.

Flashing has many causes outside of disease, it in apparently otherwise healthy fish is usually posioning. It could also be low oxygen level in the tank. Carbon monoxide, paint fumes, detergents/lotions(on your skin), excessive smoking around the tank can cause flashing. Another issue which alot of people skip over is stray electrical voltage can also cause a fish to flash, sometimes old damaged equipment is to blame but some fish are just extra sensitive to it. A grounding probe for the tank would take care of the stray voltage issue.

[frank_zappa]

i will switch to that stuff right away, thanks for input. those are things that have not come up yet so i am excited....it has been driving me nuts. it is hard to enjoy my fish when i am constantly watching them for this...i hate to think ive put them through all these meds for no reason. very excited to try these new things out that you suggested

[MCHRKiller]

Hope it works for you, keep us posted for sure.

Is your tank open top? Whats your filtration?

[Taurus]

Try switching to some Seachem Prime, it removes not only Chlorine and Chloramine but a host of other heavy metals and things from tap water...its also much more concentrated than the Aquasafe. I would add 3X your tank volume and wait 24hrs and see how the flashing goes.

Flashing has many causes outside of disease, it in apparently otherwise healthy fish is usually posioning. It could also be low oxygen level in the tank. Carbon monoxide, paint fumes, detergents/lotions(on your skin), excessive smoking around the tank can cause flashing. Another issue which alot of people skip over is stray electrical voltage can also cause a fish to flash, sometimes old damaged equipment is to blame but some fish are just extra sensitive to it. A grounding probe for the tank would take care of the stray voltage issue.

You're not going to get any better advice than Killer's and I back it 100%. IMHO there is no better water conditioner than Seachem's Prime. Personally, I would get rid of the air pumps and stones. If you have adequate filtering with a bit of water surface movement, that's all you need to maintain adequate gas exchange and the tank water will be carrying enough oxygen.

[frank_zappa]

i am very happy to try out the new conditioner. the airstone is something i only use when i am treating with meds. ive only ever used it a few times. i will keep you posted

[Taurus]

Cool. Sometimes the best medicine is a 35% - 50% water change using a good water conditioner like Prime.

[HeatherB]

I have never used Prime, but maybe I will be switching to it soon. Do a major water change to get any stray chemicals out, maybe run some carbon on your filter and use this Prime. Hope it helps!

[frank_zappa]

i didnt medicate the tank, i used my empty 10 gallon as a med bath. i will pick up the new conditioner tomorrow.

[lowlight]

Are you using carbon in your filter? What type of filter are you running? If Seachem Prime doesn't work I have been using NovaAqua+ for years, it also removes heavy metals and has a slime coat additive for the fish along with some other vitamins and such. I would also agree with MCHRKiller sounds like something mechanically or chemically going on in your tank.

[Sarkazmo]

Could be a minor parasitical infestation. Something that's not deadly but very irritating to the fish. You could try adding some garlic juice to their food, letting it soak in for a minute, then feeding. Killer's suggestion on the Prime is well worth a try as well. Short of disection of one of the affected fish it's going to be trial and error.

Sark

[frank_zappa]

should i get into the habit of running some carbon every once in a while? i never use it. i have tried feeding garlic before.

im going to grab that conditioner today and tonight i will do a big water change with it and just keep watching.

[MCHRKiller]

I would actually suggest some Seachem Purigen, it is infinitely more effective than carbon and it to will suck up some free radicals out of the water. It is going to be a long hard road of trial and error as your fish dont have the typical easy fix of ich causing their flashing. If the Prime and Purigen dont work, my next suggestion would be a grounding probe. Maybe try soaking their foods in garlic daily for about 2 weeks? If anything it will give them a good immune boost, and it wont hurt anything.

[Algenco]

I would actually suggest some Seachem Purigen, it is infinitely more effective than carbon and it to will suck up some free radicals out of the water. It is going to be a long hard road of trial and error as your fish dont have the typical easy fix of ich causing their flashing. If the Prime and Purigen dont work, my next suggestion would be a grounding probe. Maybe try soaking their foods in garlic daily for about 2 weeks? If anything it will give them a good immune boost, and it wont hurt anything.


[Only Registered Users Can See Links.] Purigen is great stuffthumbs2:

[William]

It is old school and nothing I would normally recommend but have you considered adding salt (I dont know exactly what species you keep) It will help prevent ich but it would however be much better to find the cause of the ick and improve that since salt only would help against the disease not the underlaying problem. I would start of by trying Purigen and the other advice you see here.

[Scrup]

Have you tried using water from another source? say fill your 10G with some from a fish store? and put one of the flashing fish into it (acclimating them of course) Find out what if anything they put in the water, and use that.

Just a thought.

[frank_zappa]

i do not want to add salt because it is a planted tank. as for using other water, i used to use nothing but spring water or RO and if i remember correctly it used to happen back then as well. i am going to try the the new conditioner and also that purigen. i will use garlic in their food as well. i may need advice on grounding the tank, like what type of wire, where to ground it to/from etc.

this has all been very helpful. thanks everybody for all the advice....

im going to pick those things up on my way home...i am assuming that my giant chain store that rhymes with 'let go' carries it.

[Taurus]

"let go" may not have the purigen, but they'll have the Prime. You might have to order purigen on line. Then again, maybe not.

By the way, I like the new picture. I was getting sick of looking at Tom Brady.
He's a great guy and quarterback, but far from being an Angel. Change is good!

[frank_zappa]

yeah, i like the new picture too. i thought the halo was appropriate over tom brady's head seeing how he was getting beat up all season and in the playoffs. do you recognize the avatar photo? probably have to be at least 30-32 to know it....


you were right about 'let-go'; they had the prime, but not the purigen. i will order it. i picked up a few ludwigia for the tank as well. i hope that it was that simple of a fix

[Taurus]

yeah, i like the new picture too. do you recognize the avatar photo? probably have to be at least 30-32 to know it....



I'm guessing it's one of the muppets?

[lowlight]

do you recognize the avatar photo? probably have to be at least 30-32 to know it....

No gunooz is good gunooz, right?

[lowlight]

Oh yeh. I would only use carbon to get rid of any meds in the tank and then remove it.

[Crispy]

Gary gnu! :hmm3grin2orange:

[frank_zappa]

that's right....from the great space coaster, the most classic of 70's kids shows

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[frank_zappa]

ha, but i better talk about the thread topic before this gets moved.

i didnt do a wc last night with prime because i got home late and i was watching them and saw no flashing. that could be either because of the last treatment or maybe because i did do a 100% water change while they were in the med bath 2 days ago. i will do another large wc over the weekend with the prime and cross my fingers that the flashing has stopped.

oh, and maybe somebody could jump in and tell me what i need to do to make sure everything is grounded....what kind of wire & where to run it to/from

[Lady Hobbs]

Hope you can get a solution to your problem, Frank. I'm sure it can get frustrating especially when you don't "see" anything on them. Good luck and hope the suggestions you've gotten works.

[Crispy]

Yeah, best of luck to you! Hopefully you get this thing solved. :fish:

[MCHRKiller]

Glad to hear that atleast so far the fish are doing better, if your still interested in grounding. Here is what youll need to get: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I use this specific one in all of my tanks :22:

[frank_zappa]

i just got home to find something different going on in my 46...im about to do large water changes in both tanks and use the prime. i see a fish flashing in the 29 again. please check out my other thread and offer advice if you can. this is craziness.

thanks for all the help, everybody

[Amazon]

frank, i am going to tell you the complete truth. My fish used to do the ame thing, but absolutely everything parameter wise was in check. I did more and more water changes to try to get it to stop, nut then i started experimenting and it was proven in my tanks that the less water changes i do the better it gets. now this does not mean to stop doing them, i just do them every 3 weeks or so, I keep 8 tanks, 1 reef, 1 lagoon with pipefish and soon seahorses, 1 brackish, 5 freshwater tanks, 2 ponds, 3 bowls, 1 fountain pond, my sisters tanks, and I am currently making a coldwater marine tank. And everything has been better than ever.:22: Now I know i am gonna get hassled for this.:11:

[Taurus]

Now I know i am gonna get hassled for this.:11:

Umm, not from me at least. Do whatever works best for you and the fish. I recommend frequent water changes because that's always worked for me. I've never had any issues with disease or parasites in my tanks (knock wood). Regular maintenance including frequent waters changes has always kept my fish pretty healthy. Maybe I'm just darn lucky.

[Amazon]

lol thanks, I am a strong believer in a strong bacterial filter. The more good bacteria the better everything is.

[Taurus]

:yeahthat:

[Sarkazmo]

lol thanks, I am a strong believer in a strong bacterial filter. The more good bacteria the better everything is.

You're not going to get hassled from me because I'm seeing that we think along the same lines. I really think that constant water changing is detrimental to the health of the fish. Constant water changes would keep the fish in a state of constant acclimation. A healthy biofilter will break down the waste, plants will suck up most of the nitrogenous waste, top off with fresh water daily and do a water change every other week or so to freshen up minerals and such and go hands off as much as possible.

Sark

[Taurus]

Constant water changes would keep the fish in a state of constant acclimation.
Sark

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. As long as you're changing water using the same tap water, same conditioner, same temperature, there is no reacclimation except to a lower level of nitrates which should be a good thing.

[frank_zappa]

i can go every other week with the water changes, and use the prime now instead of the old conditioner. i am certainly not opposed to easing up on the frequency some; i think 2x a month is still a good amount. i am still seeing flashing going on by a few of the corys. they look fine though, still no symptoms of anything else..

here's the tank. i like to leave some algae growing on the back wall, but the water is always nice and clear. my filter pads have a real earthy-soil, not unpleasant type smell and i assume that is a good bacteria colony...

[Taurus]

my filter pads have a real earthy-soil, not unpleasant type smell and i assume that is a good bacteria colony...

They should smell something like the bottom of a lake or pond.

[frank_zappa]

well they are quite mucky...i imagine that is what the bottom of a pond is like

[MCHRKiller]

Have you used RO on the tank? If so do you mix it with tap or use a trace element restoring product?

[frank_zappa]

in this tank i dont think ive used anything but tapwater

[MCHRKiller]

Damn, reason I asked was I ran across a piece of info online that stated flashing can be caused by a lack of electrolytes and trace elements in the water. Hence straight RO water.

[frank_zappa]

it was a good try....should i add a whole dose of prime to the tank? i only dosed the amount of the water change...can you overdo it with prime?

oh and you asked before but i forgot to tell you what i have for a filter...it is a whisper ex-70 and the tank is 29 gallons

[rich311k]

it was a good try....should i add a whole dose of prime to the tank? i only dosed the amount of the water change...can you overdo it with prime?

oh and you asked before but i forgot to tell you what i have for a filter...it is a whisper ex-70 and the tank is 29 gallons

You can overdose Prime but it would take a lot of it.

[MCHRKiller]

I think for right now adding a cap would be fine just to see if they react positively to it. Then if the flashing stops only treat for the WC. That filter is fine for that size tank...shouldnt have an issue pertainting to it.

[Taurus]

Damn, reason I asked was I ran across a piece of info online that stated flashing can be caused by a lack of electrolytes and trace elements in the water. Hence straight RO water.

I thought of that too. But he's using tap water treated with Prime. Zap..we're doing everthing we can think of to help you out here with both this thread and the cory problem. Hang in there, you're tanks will eventually season in and settle down. :ssmile:

[frank_zappa]

Zap..we're doing everthing we can think of to help you out here with both this thread and the cory problem. Hang in there, you're tanks will eventually season in and settle down. :ssmile:


oh i know, and i appreciate it...im not feeling frustrated about it anymore, at least not at the moment. if i go home and my brochis's eyeball is hanging out or something like that, then maybe i will be again...ha

[Taurus]

oh i know, and i appreciate it...im not feeling frustrated about it anymore, at least not at the moment. if i go home and my brochis's eyeball is hanging out or something like that, then maybe i will be again...ha

If you find something like that, get the diseased\injured fish out of the tank and euthanize it asap. A really stressed or weak fish has a poor chance of survival at best. Sorry if that sounds crewl, but it's the truth.

[frank_zappa]

no, im not worried about that happening...not ready to euth at this point but im not too squeemish about doing it if that is what is best for the fish.

im not sure what will become of my brochis from the other thread...i am starting to suspect it is a tumor.

[Taurus]

I keep Pimafix, Melefix, and Paraguard around just in case. If I can't resolve a problem with one or a combination of these meds, then it's not worth it. Anything stronger is going to destroy your tank anyway because your biofilter will be dead. Just my opinion, and again, I haven't had to deal with many ailments that water changes, clean filters, tanks and healthy biofilters won't clear up.

[frank_zappa]

im not worried about the bio-filter too much because i am using a 10 gallon as a hospital tank.

im actually going to run out to the fish store, not the store that rhymes with 'let-go' but the mom and pop one. they may carry purigen and i will try to pick some up. im saying heck with it and i am going to add some new fish today...i have been wanting to for a while but i wanted to figure out the flashing thing first. i know this isnt the thread for it but taurus i saw you have harlequin rasporas and i think my lfs has those right now...how many would work for my 29 with 8 corys, a golden dwarf cichlid, and an L387 pleco (they stay small-4"). i have nothing going on in the top part of my tank; do they school near the top? im going to start a new thread in general topics section if you want to comment there...

[Taurus]

Zap..you're sounding more confident all the time. That's a very good thing. I think you're in control of the situation as much as anyone could be. :ssmile:

[MCHRKiller]

I would actually consider nipping off whatever is on your Brochis, if it is damaged gill tissue its not going to benefit the fish outside the body except to get torn off and infected, and if its a tumor it could solve the issue if it is begnign. :22:

[frank_zappa]

well, it sorta almost looks a little better...two of the little red things (they look like little fish eggs, perfectly round) look to be turning white like they may fall off....

i will have the nail clippers at the ready, though.

[MCHRKiller]

Excellent it may just resolve itself in time :22:

[Taurus]

i will have the nail clippers at the ready, though.

A surgically enhanced Bronchis. Nip and tuck. :ssmile:

[frank_zappa]

A surgically enhanced Bronchis. Nip and tuck. :ssmile:

i hope i dont nip too much then he wont be so splenden


it may be the meds fixing it i have no idea, but if it is getting better i am not going to change anything im doing yet.