Just some questions

[johnicd]

Right now I have two neon tetras, two buenos aires tetras and two sucker fish. They arent plecos, they are a smaller species. All in a 10 gallon tank. The fish seem to be doing just fine. I currently have two plastic plants, gravel and some stone structures in the tank. I plan to add 4 more plastic plants and some more gravel but I am guna wait a week to do so. How many more neons could I add before I go over the bioload? I really want schooling fish because they interest me the most.
And one last question... What size tank do you all think I should get as an upgrade to this? I prefer my tanks to be more long than tall. How about a good 30 gallon? Thanks for all of your help.

[cocoa_pleco]

in a 10g, 15 tetras can be achieved with good filtration.

33g is the best model up. Then, you are able to try cichlids and other fish

[johnicd]

I dont have the best filter at the moment. But that is next on my list to buy. What filter do you recommend for the 10g and what filter for the 33g?

[RobbieG]

Do you have any idea what the sucker fish are?

If they are Oto cats they'll only grow to a couple of inches but a lot of others will get too big for a 10 Gallon just by themselves like siamese aglae eaters or chinese algae eaters.

[Lady Hobbs]

The 29 gallon is a nice tank and you can do much more with it than a 20 gallon. It's amazing the difference what 9 gallons can make in keeping fish and what you can have.

If your tank is new, the sucker fish may not live. It's not good to add them until your tank has been set up and they have something to eat. They often starve in new tanks so make sure you give them algae waffers. Also, I take it you are cycling your tank with the fish you have? If so, you need to get a test kit and test the water daily for high ammonia and nitrites. You can learn more about cycling in the Free E-Book in the left menu or a quick read about it in Tips for Newbies (Tank Setup Thread) or anywhere online but wherever you get the information, a cycle is a must.

Once your tank has started to cycle, and it probably already has, you don't want to add more gravel or will snuff out the bacteria already starting to grow in the gravel. If you wish to add to the gravel, add some in a pile in just one corner for awhile then in a couple weeks add a bit more in another corner but don't cover up your existing gravel.

Many more pointers on the cycle so please read up about it and perhaps when you get the larger tank, a fishless cycle will be much more appealing. It sure is much faster.

[cocoa_pleco]

10g- aquaclear mini

33g- fluval 205, or even better 305

[johnicd]

Do you have any idea what the sucker fish are?

If they are Oto cats they'll only grow to a couple of inches but a lot of others will get too big for a 10 Gallon just by themselves like siamese aglae eaters or chinese algae eaters.

I know they are not siamese or chinese algae eaters. They are very small. They biggest one they had was no bigger than the buenos aires.

And I am doing the cycling with the fish in it. Probably not smart on my part but I got anxious. I already have a test kit and do daily tests. I will pick up some algae tablets when I go to petco next.
I was a little dissapointed about the gravel situation as I just bought two bags of it. I will add a clump every week and a half or so until I am happy with what I got. Thank you so much for all the help. You guys are amazing.

[cocoa_pleco]

small ones are probably otto cats. good for algae control

[johnicd]

yeah I am thinking thats what they are. I have a good sized one and then a small one.

[gm72]

I have an all-glass 40 gallon long tank that is new to me and I love it. Tons of room and long vs. tall. All-glass also makes a 20 gallon long that looks pretty cool.

I have Aquaclear 20s on my 10 gallon tanks with outstanding results. As cocoa says, the mini will work fine, but I find the 20 gives more biological filtration while still avoiding whirlpool syndrome for the fish. I think you will find a lot of people use the Aquaclear HOB (Hang On Back) filters, they are truly great.

Make sure to gently mix in new gravel to your existing gravel. Otherwise you deprive your existing (establishing) bacteria culture of oxygen and water movement by capping it. If I were you I'd fully cycle the tank first then add more gravel.

[johnicd]

Thanks for the input. I will wait some time before adding in the gravel. I dont plan to get a new tank till mid summer so I got nothing but time for this little 10g. After I get my new tank, the 10g will more than likely become a planted aquarium with some schooling fish. The new tank will either be chichlids or a community tank.

[johnicd]

one of my sucker fish is acting really lathargic today. He can't stay on any wall and just slides down, then flips over. I believe he is sick. I removed him and put him into a smaller tank. What do you think I should do to get him better?

[johnicd]

came home to find him dead. Not very good seeing he was the bigger of the ottos. But it happens. I had an ammoniam increase and now need to go get some stuff to bring it down.

[Coler]

nope you don't. you need to do water changes to bring it down.

in an absolute emergency, like you do not have the 20 minutes to spare to change water I would reccomend dosing prime. Otherwise, do the water change as necessary.

someone wise once said we don't keep fish, we keep water. the fish just tell us how good the water is. avoid adding 'stuff' to your tank if at all possible :)

[Drumachine09]

nope you don't. you need to do water changes to bring it down.


Big WCs, like 50--75%

[Coler]

yup. which in a 10 gallon should take you like 10 minutes. do your change when you see ammonia hit .25ppm, make sure you are using a good liquid test, not the paper strips; they are pointless.

hey sorry for your loss btw; sucks to lose a fish :(

[johnicd]

Thanks for all the support. I thought of doing the water change, but then realized my tank is still cycling and it would be easier to go ahead and buy the stuff incase anything happens. The ammonia seems to be all good now according to the strips and to the ammonia alert sensor. I believe he died because of lack of food. Its a new tank and I believe he has nothing to eat. I am going to petsmart tomorrow to buy some algae tablets so I don't loose the other. But other than that, my other fish seem to be doing great. Swimming around having fun.

[Coler]

another suggestion - those paper strips are 100% worthless. get a liquid test.

The thing about the cycle is that it will continue until the bacteria in the tank grow to accomodate the waste produced by the stocking. So you have, in a fish cycle, the following fun :

1. Fish, water, no ammonia
2. Fish, water, ammonia (poop)
3. Fish, water, ammonia to toxic level (say .25 ppm or more, but no ammonia is good ammonia)
4. Water change
5. Fish, water, ammonia to toxic level
6. Water change
7. after many water changes
8. Fish, water, ammonia, nitrite
9. Fish, water, ammonia, nitrite to toxic level (again .25 ppm)
10. Water change
11. Fish, water, maybe no ammonia, nitrite to toxic level
12. Water change...repeat 10, 11 for lots.
13. Fish, water, no ammonia, no nitrite, some nitrate
14. Cycling party yipppeeee!!!
15. Monitor for one week. confirm nitrates rising, no ammonia/nitrite on daily test. Nitrifying bacteria now sufficient to deal with current stock.
16. Add more fish
17. Depending on how careful you are, potential mini-cycle. Test morning and evening for ammonia & nitrite. If you see any, water change. After one week with no rise in either you can consider yourself safe again.

Steps 1 - 15 in a small tank can take 8 weeks requiring daily water changes. The problem is that in a small tank the ammonia, which is the food source for the nitrifying bacteria, rises to toxic levels so rapidly and must be changed out to prevent fish death. This slows down growth of the bacteria as you are taking out their food source.

Prime is a great product which will detoxify ammonia but leave it available for your bacteria; if you must use a product rather than water change, this is the one to go for.

But please try to do water changes when the levels rise; you not only have to worry about ammonia/nitrite, there are other dissolved organic compounds and hormones in there (did you know that dominant male fish release a hormone to inhibit the growth of other males ? not relevant in the wild but in an aquarium...) which have to be changed out.

I would not gravel vac during the cycle.

Glad your fish are enjoying themselves :)

[johnicd]

Thank you so very much for informing me once again. I will continue to do water changes daily. Is it possible to use water test kits for pools or are they different?

[Coler]

you are absolutely welcome and it is absolutely my pleasure :)

I would definitely continue with the water changes - a 10 gal shouldn't take ya that long to shift out as much as is required (as you persist, you will get a good feel for how much of a change is required to get the levels down to safe - could be 50 - 75% as already said by drum machine). When your tank is cycled you will be able to leave to it to maybe 25% weekly depending on stock.

Yup you can use your freshwater kit on all freshwater, including a pool/pond. But, get a liquid test. Paper strips arn't worth the paper they're...well, you get the idea :) I read good reviews of the seachem ammonia sensor, don't know about the others. But you will want to be able to test for Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate and Ph at a minimum. Personally, I like the Ph test daily on a cycled tank; if it has fallen you have probably a Nitrate problem. If you have ammonia/nitrite problems the fish will tell you. I test weekly for those, on a cycled tank, and weekly for nitrates.

Not only am I glad your fish are enjoying themselves, I should have said I'm glad you're enjoying them too :)

[johnicd]

I just did a 50% water change. Took about 5 mins tops. Tomorrow I will do a 75%. I will look into the liquid tester kits once I get enough cash. Once again thanks for your help.

[Drumachine09]

I just did a 50% water change. Took about 5 mins tops. Tomorrow I will do a 75%. I will look into the liquid tester kits once I get enough cash. Once again thanks for your help.

Liquid is the way to go. When you think about it, you could pay 13 dollars for 30 innacurate strips. Or for 8 dollars, you could get 300 accurate tests. I got a 45 dollar kit for 11 dollars at petsmart, because it was on clearance.

[Coler]

interesting thing about the paper strips; I believe that initially they can (depending on brand) are in fact more accurate and precise than the liquid tests. Its just that they degrade ridiculously quickly due to humidity and become vastly unreliable within days of purchase.

you also need to be very careful not to leave the lids of your test bottles; overnight can spoil them.

[wijnands]

I've been using tetra test strips. Bought a tin of 'm 2 months ago and they're still ok.

[Coler]

hmmmm...hopefully :)

have you tried checking the results against a liquid test ? ever get a reading you consider strange ? hard to say they're ok without a comparison.

[johnicd]

When its feeding time, I have noticed that the buenos aires are eating all the food while the neons arent eating at all. In fact the neons dont even see the food. Any ideas?

[Coler]

tricky. I don't keep tetras, bear that in mind. One thing to ensure is that the neons are actually looking to feed. Fish that are being outcompeted is one thing, which you can address with technique. Fish with no interest in feeding over a period of time is not a good sign.

With my malawi there are 2 or 3 that are real aggressive feeders and would hoover up everything, so I feed on two sides of the tank; a little over here, now a little over there. The greedy ones tend to either stay over on one side or flit between the two in a panic. Either way the less forward fish get a fair chance to feed. This might work for your tetras

When I had a couple of very shy additions in the tank who did not feed for a week on coming in I put down a couple of spirulina tablets for them which they would nibble at while the others fed. This kept them going until they had the moxie to come up for the pellets. So target feeding might work. Would they (the neons or the BA's) take some floating flakes while you feed another food; again the BA's might focus on one food source leaving the others for the neons.

Always always watch your fish eat. Never just chuck the food in and walk away.

Hope this helps :)

[wijnands]

hmmmm...hopefully :)

have you tried checking the results against a liquid test ? ever get a reading you consider strange ? hard to say they're ok without a comparison.

Who me? No, never. Quite consistent results, within what I expected and well within optimal parameters for my tank dwellers. They all look good, cardinals especially are look nice, big and plump, bee shrimp at least one's pregnant and those are picky when it comes to water quality.
But, I will take some to the shop to get a second opinion.

@johnicd:
What are you feeding? Flakes? Pellets?

[johnicd]

feeding flakes

[Chrona]

hmmmm...hopefully :)

have you tried checking the results against a liquid test ? ever get a reading you consider strange ? hard to say they're ok without a comparison.

Well, this is a debate for another thread, but you should bear in mind that test strips compares an opaque piece of paper to a opaque piece of paper. Liquid test kits compare a transparent (and round no less) vial to a opaque strip of paper. Depending on how close I hold the test tube, what room I have it in, or what angle I am viewing it from, I can get very different results. Granted, I haven't used paper test strips before, but my LFS buys it by the boxful for routine testing and they have compared it to their LaMotte test kits (regarded as one of the most accurate test kits available) and found them reasonably close. I believe they are using the API brand.

[cocoa_pleco]

I prefer liquid. My superpets all just jack one of the API liquid master test kits for my testing, and petsmart still is in the old ages of test strips

[Chrona]

I guess your mileage may vary depending on the batch of test strips, but the fact that you are comparing a vial to a chart certainly offsets some of the accuracy benefits of liquid testing.

[wijnands]

OK, John, how about starting a seperate thread in the tetra forum .First id is feeding in two batches, few minutes apart and make sure some flakes sink.

I use these 5 in 1 strips:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Coler]

I guess your mileage may vary depending on the batch of test strips, but the fact that you are comparing a vial to a chart certainly offsets some of the accuracy benefits of liquid testing.

well...i don't know if that makes sense. if the fact of comparing a vial to a chart means it may not be accurate then all of the benefits of liquid testing are removed.

I reccomend to people who are wondering whether their e.g. ammonia test is 0 or .25 to mix their liquid test and then leave it sit for a half hour or more if in doubt. the test tube sample will turn 'even more golden' (with the API kit) than the initial 5 minute wait if its a 0 and will have an undoubted green tinge if there is a reading.

I also reccomend that if you are not sure whether your liquid test is showing something, test your tap water as well and compare the tubes side by side.

i would finally make the simple proposition that the vast majority of people in the hobby will trust liquid tests over paper strips. If e.g. my LFS tested water by paper strips I would be very suspicious as to their expertise.

[Chrona]

well...i don't know if that makes sense. if the fact of comparing a vial to a chart means it may not be accurate then all of the benefits of liquid testing are removed.

I reccomend to people who are wondering whether their e.g. ammonia test is 0 or .25 to mix their liquid test and then leave it sit for a half hour or more if in doubt. the test tube sample will turn 'even more golden' (with the API kit) than the initial 5 minute wait if its a 0 and will have an undoubted green tinge if there is a reading.

I also reccomend that if you are not sure whether your liquid test is showing something, test your tap water as well and compare the tubes side by side.

i would finally make the simple proposition that the vast majority of people in the hobby will trust liquid tests over paper strips. If e.g. my LFS tested water by paper strips I would be very suspicious as to their expertise.

The LFS I am referring to uses 5 in 1 paper test strips because it is far more convenient than the liquid ones and saves them time and labor. However, they are aware of the accuracy issue, and so have compared results with their LaMotte test kit, which returned a surprisingly small difference. But as I said, your mileage may vary.

And it's not so black and white with regards to id'ing the color. The color may be slightly off depending on the ambient light, etc, but it in no way completely removes the benefit of a liquid kit: that is displays a more accurate color. It's just that it's harder to interpret this more accurate color.

While the vast majority of users may indeed use liquid test kits, that doesn't prove anything. Aquarium knowledge is evolving at such a fast rate that it may just be the "old way of thinking." And challenging the norm never hurts. In fact, that's how progress occurs imo.

Tap water is in no way a good standard imo. There's so much variation in ammonia/nitrate/etc content.

Anyways, sorry to the OP for the threadjacking. We do tend to get sidetracked rather easily around here. ;)

[Coler]

yeah but its a good sidetrack :)

my point about using tap water as a base comparison was this :

if you're looking at your test tube and thinking "is that a .25 or a 0", and you know your tap water is 0 for ammonia, test a tap water sample and put it beside that tank sample; its one of the best ways I know to ensure you have a 0 sample, when you're still learning what a 0 sample looks like (becuase you're right, it can be tough to read those test tubes at first).

That is predicated on knowing your tap water is a constant for ammonia/nitrite/nitrate. If it isn't, ya got bigger issues than how to read a test sample !

Paper strips would be fine, if you could keep them from being affected by humidity. Liquid tests retain their integrity for longer (although they do have use by dates, and do not forget to put the tops back on the bottle).

I'll be using the liquids myself.