Losing my neons

[naiku]

I already have this in a thread in the beginner forum, but figured I would post here too......... on Thursday we bought 8 neons for our 10G tank (nothing else in the tank).......... we had previous problems with ammonia (killed 3 goldfish) and so had the tank cycling......... we had the LFS test our water twice, and the last time we were there the ammonia was a little high, so we left it another few days, tested ourselves, were confident of the water and so bought the neons.

The first night 2 died, the second day another 2, then yesterday another 2 and today another 1.......... leaving us with 1 neon. They all exhibited the same symptoms that our goldfish did, floating randomly, lethargic......... further tests on our water revealed ammonia at 0 (I also carried out a 50% water change after the first 4 died)......... we have soft water with a low pH and the tank is heated to about 80F.......... any idea's what killed the neons? they had appeared happy and very active in the tank, colors were bright, I have not been able to see any discoloration around their gills. So I have no idea what is killing them, and am really just waiting now on the last one to die......... any clues on what could be killing them? I have that I have now had 10 fish in total die, especially when we felt that our water was cycled (no ammonia, nitrite, low nitrate)........... I am reluctant to buy any more fish as we don't want them to die, and am at the point in giving up on our tank.

Is it possible the neons do not like our water? they are used to town water and we have well water? is there any other fish we could try? we want something small (tank size) and that we can get a good number of (the neons looked great zooming around the tank together).........

Any advice is really appreciated at this point. Thanks.

[cocoa_pleco]

could be that a constant tetra with neon disease is coming in

[naiku]

I just called the LFS where we bought the neons and they said it could still be ammonia? not sure how that can be since the ammonia is reading 0..........the guy told me neons are very susceptible to ammonia poisoning and that even though our tank is a month old its still new enough for ammonia to kill the neons.......... then suggested doing a 25% water change (already did a 50%) and let it sit for a week before trying some bigger tetras.

Not sure what other tetras to get, but will be leaving the tank until at least next Thursday before I add anything to it.

[Jakaris]

The symptoms sound similar to what happened wit hsome cichlids i bought earlier in the month. I would recommend checking any decorations you have, if any of them look suspicious (it was slate for me, its fine now, but i had to soak it), or rocks, or naything, check that first. then check your PH, if its too high and they go from a very low one, the shock will kill them, easily.

[J5589]

Test your tap water see what readings you get. What conditioner do you use? Do you use bleach, or soap to clean anything that goes in your aquarium?

[MacAnthony]

I am having the same issue and posted in the Biginner forum as well. My post can be found here (http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=6184).

I have good levels for everything that I have tested (chlorine, nitrite, ph, hardness, and ammonia). The nitrite and ammonia levels are just in trace amounts.

My question is pertaining to the water temperature. I have my tank around 79-80F just as the OP. A lot of the documentation I've read on the neons, puts the ideal range in around a 72-76 level. Could it be that the neons are that sensitive to temperature? Just as the OP, I'm running out of things to point fingers at.

[cocoa_pleco]

A few degrees shouldnt be the culprit. perhaps you keeps getting a batch with neon disease?

[Lady Hobbs]

Neons are intolerate of water having any ammonia or nitrites and I'm sure the guy at the store hit it on the head.

You mentioned you had goldfish that had died in cycling the tank and then later added the neons. This tells me this tank has still not cycled. You will test for 0 if nothing has yet cycled. You mentioned you had the tank cycled. How did you do it?

[jttt3]

Neons must not be as nearly hardy as they use to be. When I was 12 (long long time ago) I use to run neons along with goldfish in a tank that I never did water changes on with a bio wheel and I'd maybe only loose 1 every 4 months. I even ran them in plain tap water with no conditioner, though that was well water in Alaska lol.

Were the fish at the surface seeming to gasp for air?

When you had the goldfish die, did you start over or did you just use the same water that the dead golfish were floating in?

If your last fish dies, I'd probably start over. Take everything down, wash and rinse the heck out of everything not using soap, but the suggestions in e-book at the left. Wash out the tank in the same manner and your filter system as well, tossing the filter you have and get a new one, then follow the fishless cycle listed in the ebook and then try again.

If you start over, complete the cycle, and still have fish die, I'd change where you are getting fish and change your brand of water conditioner.

James

[Lady Hobbs]

I don't think neon tetra disease is all that common and they also don't die that fast. Ammonia or nitrites will kill them in a very short time, however. My neons have gotten moved back and forth from tank to tank I don't know how many times and have lived thru every move. I have lost maybe 3 in a year and am finding my remainders pretty hardly little buggers.

Tetra's are claimed to do better with temps around 74-76 but mine have been in warmer tanks, as well.

[jttt3]

Tetra's are claimed to do better with temps around 74-76 but mine have been in warmer tanks, as well.

I agree, I use to run mine in 78-79F with no problem.

james

[MacAnthony]

I agree, I use to run mine in 78-79F with no problem.

james
Hmm. I'm not sure what could be my issue then. I'm fairly certain my tank has cycled. I have had a spike in the nitrates and other than the tetras, I only lost 2 danios a month a part from each other, but there are still 5 other fish doing quite well in the tank. I do register some ammonia when I test it, but it is somewhere between 0ppm and .25ppm.

[NeonJulie]

I've wondered about this. All the grief I've had with my neons was when the tank was 80-82. I couldn't get it any lower, with my lowest setting.

The second attempt of my tank I got the smallest heater I can find. It's actually rated for a 3-5g tank. It's also on the lowest setting. I got it down to 78 and this batch of neons has been much much better, although still some problems.

Then summer kicks in on the Gulf, and my hot humid bathroom that somehow missed my great AC, and I have 80 degrees again, and the white patches start coming back and deteriorating. Then I read on forums about the evaporation process and heat, so I see what happens if I leave the feed/filter lid off of my Eclipse 12. And I end up with near constant 76 degrees.

It's been about a week now... and they are looking their best! It doesn't look all that great to see the filter pads and everything, but who cares, the neons look a lot better.

Then I hear many many people keep neons just fine with their discus, notoriously high temps.

All I know is I hope to be sticking with my 76-78 degrees. I hear temps toward the lower range of the fish can do things like... inhibit bacteria infection (Columnaris loves summer temps) lower the fish metabolism, and prolong the life of the fish supposedly.

The other reason I wanted to try it, was because years ago in our old tank with only bimonthly water changes, we had it about 75 or something, and none of our fish got sick once.

I guess the jury's out... you just have to see what works best for your neons, and make gradual changes.

[jttt3]

When the water gets hotter, it reduces the rate at which oxygen is dissolved into your tank. I would drop in an airstone to break the surface tension of the water and see if you can get more oxygen into the tank. That's why I was asking about the fish gasping for air.

That's all I can think of at this point.

james

[MacAnthony]

When the water gets hotter, it reduces the rate at which oxygen is dissolved into your tank. I would drop in an airstone to break the surface tension of the water and see if you can get more oxygen into the tank. That's why I was asking about the fish gasping for air.

That's all I can think of at this point.

james
I do have two airstones in the tank and a power filter that both add significant bubbles to the tank. You can easily see the tiny bubbles just floating around in the water. Although my tank is a hex tank, so my actual surface area at the top of the tank is signicantly less.

[hungryhound]

I already have this in a thread in the beginner forum, but figured I would post here too......... on Thursday we bought 8 neons for our 10G tank (nothing else in the tank).......... we had previous problems with ammonia (killed 3 goldfish) and so had the tank cycling......... we had the LFS test our water twice, and the last time we were there the ammonia was a little high, so we left it another few days, tested ourselves, were confident of the water and so bought the neons.

I agree with Lady Hobbs in that your tank is not cycled. The timeline of how your tank was cycled is not clear, but here is how I understand it.

10 gallon tank
Added 3 goldfish
Goldfish go number 1 and 2 in your tank releasing ammonia and starting your cycle.
3 goldfish die -(ammonia High, not enough bacteria)
Test water at local fish store and the ammonia is high.
Let fish tank sit empty until ammonia is 0.
All of your bacteria ate the left over ammonia
no new sourceof ammonia for your bacteria and they die.
Added 8 tetras
Went number 1 and number 2 in the water
Ammonia rose because bacteria was all dead from being starved.
Fish died.

That is the timeline that I gleam from your post. If this is correct then Hobbs is correct in that the tank is not cycled. I would suggest checking out the fishless cycling sticky as to save other fish the horror of going through a cycle.

[hungryhound]

I just called the LFS where we bought the neons and they said it could still be ammonia? not sure how that can be since the ammonia is reading 0..........the guy told me neons are very susceptible to ammonia poisoning and that even though our tank is a month old its still new enough for ammonia to kill the neons.......... then suggested doing a 25% water change (already did a 50%) and let it sit for a week before trying some bigger tetras.

Not sure what other tetras to get, but will be leaving the tank until at least next Thursday before I add anything to it.

If the tank is sitting empty then all of the bacteria will die as they will have no source of ammonia. You would be best to read the sticky on fishless cycling or add either 1 goldfish or 1 zebra danio and use them to cycle.

Using more than one fish in a small ten gallon tank will cause the ammonia to build up quicker than your bacteria colony can grow. This will cause you to see lethal levels of ammonia and kill your fish.

Either way you have to have a constant supply of food for the bacteria. Without it they will die off.

[jttt3]

Broken down like that, I agree.

[bscman]

I agree with Lady Hobbs in that your tank is not cycled. The timeline of how your tank was cycled is not clear, but here is how I understand it.

10 gallon tank
Added 3 goldfish
Goldfish go number 1 and 2 in your tank releasing ammonia and starting your cycle.
3 goldfish die -(ammonia High, not enough bacteria)
Test water at local fish store and the ammonia is high.
Let fish tank sit empty until ammonia is 0.
All of your bacteria ate the left over ammonia
no new sourceof ammonia for your bacteria and they die.
Added 8 tetras
Went number 1 and number 2 in the water
Ammonia rose because bacteria was all dead from being starved.
Fish died.

That is the timeline that I gleam from your post. If this is correct then Hobbs is correct in that the tank is not cycled. I would suggest checking out the fishless cycling sticky as to save other fish the horror of going through a cycle.

I'd say this is just about about spot on.
That bacteria can't live forever without a food source!!!
Also, adding 8 fish all at once in a (now determined) uncycled tank will cause a large spike in ammonia--which is probably the culprit of your problems.

The smaller the tank, the more careful you have to be with keeping up with good water parameters! THIS IS IMPERATIVE!
Constant water changes (say 25%) will help dilute the ammonia levels to a less-toxic (but still deadly) level. Remember, the good bacteria don't float around in the water...they live in filter media and your substrate...so doing water changes is a good thing (use a good conditioner!)

My opinion would be COMPLETELY clean out your tank, gravel, etc, and start completely over.
Do a complete fishless cycle with PURE ammonia...
And when you are finally ready to add fish, only add a few at a time...