9 Dead Fish=One huge warning!!!

[Lady Hobbs]

After my 5 day cycle and everything going by clock work and the fish loving their new tank, I thought I had it made.

Last night within an hour of setting up my DIY CO2 (two bottles+two bubblers) I noticed my tank was clouding up. I immediately unhooked the CO2 systems and thought it would clear back up.

How wrong I was!! This morning I woke up to 9 dead tetra's, 3 nearly dead angels and my featherfin gasping at the top. I AM HEARTSICK! When I opened the lid, the 3 faces of those angels were looking right at me....their heads sticking right out of the water.

I have never had a fish die off........ever! Even when I cycled with fish, I lost one here and there but never to this magnitude. And the thing that makes me want to hit myself in the head with a hammer is this is a exact repeat of what transpired two weeks ago with these bubblers.

So, here I am again. One slimmy as***** tank, crap hanging from all my plants and another cycle had to be started.

I am sick!

[Rue]

Oh no! I'm so sorry!!! That's devastating! :(

[hungryhound]

I am so sorry Hobbs, That sucks. Having just gone through that I know how devastating this can be, and I hope that the rest of your fish recover from the shock and that your tank quickly gets back to normal. Best wishes on the recovery and my sympathy for your loss.

[Abbeys_Mom]

Sorry you lost some of you fish.

[sergo]

Asphyxiation? what happened?

[RobbieG]

A while back I tried backing off on my airstone to help out my scraggly looking plants. Day one the plants started looking better almost immediately. Day two - wow this is great. Day three 6 dead baby Bala sharks floating amongst the beautiful green plants.

Since then I've been sticking with mostly Anachris Plants (Not as pretty a plant as the leafy ones but it seems to grow under any conditions)

[Lady Hobbs]

Of course. They can not breathe in suffocating slime. You know, of all my fish these were my least favorites. They were my rosy tetra's and high finned whites but regardless if they were my favorites or not, I just don't toss fish in a glass box to die. I am extremely upset and crying over these danged fish so can just imagine had it been my angels! I had these tetra's for a year and so glad I didn't put my black skirts in that tank now.

CO2 is needed with 3 watts per gallon but sure is not needed when I have 1 watt. This is my fault and I tried and failed before so have no one to blame but myself and should have been paying attention to what I was reading which was ........CO2 in 3 watts per gallon or higher!

We need to stick with what we know, what works for us and has been our tried and true and forget the stuff we know nothing about.

To top my morning off, here comes to ex husband to tell me the dog I got for him and his wife 2 years ago was hit and killed by a car yesterday. This is the dog and the picture I took of him just last week after I had given him his haircut and bath. He has only had about 5 dogs killed by cars in front of his house now and you'd think he'd get smart. I loved this dog, gave him all his baths and haircuts and bought him all his treats. Today SUCKS!

[kenyth]

First off, I'm sorry for this unfortunate event. I hope you don't mind if I try to analyze what happened.

It sounds like a sizable culture of yeast and sugar solution bubbled out of the bottles and into the tank. The yeast were still at work, metabolizing sugars and whatever else they can eat in the water. They produce alcohol and CO2 in significant quantities and consume a TON of oxygen during their extremely rapid reproduction. The rapid oxygen depletion is the most likely killer, with alcohol toxicity running a close second. CO2 can also kill in significant quantities, but I doubt enough would stay in the warm water to cause that.

Is this the first fermentor you've made? Did you have an air-lock on the bottles and plenty of headspace? When I read about these CO2 generators, a toxic blow over into the tank was my first thought. I make beer, so I know it can happen.

In the future, you can use a tiny amount of "Jet-Dry" in your fermentors. That stuff reduces surface tension in the solution and prevents foam from forming. I know this because you can't use bottles or equipment washed with "Jet-Dry" in the dishwasher because it ruins the head on beer.

[Rue]

Good grief! Five dogs killed by cars? He shouldn't have any more dogs...:(

Don't give up on the fish-tank experimenting though...I think the trying of new ideas keeps the hobby exciting...

Otherwise we'd be bored by always staring at the ever 'perfect' tank...

[sergo]

damn hobbs i'm sorry to hear that.
i will say that i haven't had any problems with my diy co2 in my 55. it's bubbling at about 1 bubble per second in the intake of my 305 but i bet i'm not getting a lot dissolved in the water and i only have 30 watts of light. i have no idea what is happening in your tank but whatever it is it isn't right.

[Lady Hobbs]

First off, I'm sorry for this unfortunate event. I hope you don't mind if I try to analyze what happened.

It sounds like a sizable culture of yeast and sugar solution bubbled out of the bottles and into the tank. The yeast were still at work, metabolizing sugars and whatever else they can eat in the water. They produce alcohol and CO2 in significant quantities and consume a TON of oxygen during reproduction. The rapid oxygen depletion is the most likely killer, with alcohol toxicity running a close second. CO2 can also kill in significant quantities, but I doubt enough would stay in the warm water to cause that.

Is this the first fermentor you've made? Did you have an air-lock on the bottles and plenty of headspace? When I read about these CO2 generators, a toxic blow over into the tank was my first thought. I make beer, so I know it can happen.

In the future, you can use a tiny amount of "Jet-Dry" in your fermentors. That stuff reduces surface tension in the solution and prevents foam from forming. I know this because you can't use bottles or equipment washed with "Jet-Dry" in the dishwasher because it ruins the head on beer.

I don't know what caused this but the same thing happened two weeks ago. I dumped that whole tank, added new gravel, did my cycle and started over with great results. Until the CO2 that is and noticed, as mentioned, within the hour a change was taking place. I would have thought unhooking those bottles would have stopped whatever was going on but obviously it continued during the night.

I keep the liquid in the bottles down about 4 inches with two inches of line going into the bottles as I read to do. Two cups sugar + 1/2 t. yeast.

I am "over" trying to use CO2 and if I get brave enough to try again will buy the outfit and the pills to use in one rather than trying to rig it up myself.

My airstone was going all night so possibly this gave it the oxygen it needed to go nuts?

I just wish I'd have left it alone! I'm just discusted with myself.

[crackatinny]

For a 1st, I am almost lost for words here.

I think I remember this little fella from a post just prior to xmas, I had thought he had shih-tzu in him, and you corrected me.
Well no matter what the breed, a dog more so than most animals become a family member, I have 7 shih-zu, and twice in the past year, I have had them almost choke, my wife had given them a treat of a slice of meat, the 1st, was at the stage of passing out, and I could not retreive the meat, she kept just dropping to the ground, in a last ditch effort. I thought, if I can't get it out, I have to shove it down, so rammed my finger down her throat as far as I could, thank god, I felt the meat move, and after a big cough, she got up.
Then, just the other night, I was in bed, when my wife came running in with Fred and was crying, saying he is choking, again, luckily, this time, I could grab the meat, he had bitten my fingers something fearce, but that was not going to stop me, again, he came around.

If anything ever happened to my babies, I don't know how I would handle it.

I am so so sorry for your loss of this liitle CHAMP

[Lady Hobbs]

PS.....One good thing come out of all this mess. The plans I had for building my stand were laying on the table and my ex asked what the plans were for. I told him I needed to built another tank stand and he took the plans with him and is doing it for me! Guess he figured I needed some "pacifying". LOL
He has been my ex for 38 years but I'm still not afraid to yell at him over that dog!

So Kenyth, now that I am calmed down and not wanting to smash something .......I am reading from your post that it could be that the CO2 solution entered my tank itself other than by bubbles? I did check the second bottle of water/yeast and see the line on that one went into the solution rather than being above it. Could this have done this do you suppose?

Thanks everyone. Today reminds me of an old song "What a difference a Day Makes." :help:

[Lady Hobbs]

For a 1st, I am almost lost for words here.

I think I remember this little fella from a post just prior to xmas, I had thought he had shih-tzu in him, and you corrected me.
Well no matter what the breed, a dog more so than most animals become a family member, I have 7 shih-zu, and twice in the past year, I have had them almost choke, my wife had given them a treat of a slice of meat, the 1st, was at the stage of passing out, and I could not retreive the meat, she kept just dropping to the ground, in a last ditch effort. I thought, if I can't get it out, I have to shove it down, so rammed my finger down her throat as far as I could, thank god, I felt the meat move, and after a big cough, she got up.
Then, just the other night, I was in bed, when my wife came running in with Fred and was crying, saying he is choking, again, luckily, this time, I could grab the meat, he had bitten my fingers something fearce, but that was not going to stop me, again, he came around.

If anything ever happened to my babies, I don't know how I would handle it.

I am so so sorry for your loss of this liitle CHAMP

Two chokes and you're out! He may have a narrowing in his throat and you need to either take chunks of meat away from him totally or cut it up much, much smaller. You may not get a third chance, my friend.

[holbritter]

That really stinks Hobbs.....so sorry that happened. I know I'm fighting a losing battle to keep mine alive right now. You certainly get attached to these little guys quickly!

[Chrona]

Sorry to hear that Hobbs :( It sounds like you have had a very rough past few days, and I feel I am partly to blame because I keep egging you on to get CO2 running.

Again, I agree with Kenyth on what happened. Gaseous CO2 doesn't cloud water, ever, because it's fairly inert and doesn't react with much. And asphixiation is out of the question, because it's nearly impossible to inject enough CO2 via a yeast solution in a larger tank to go over 30-40 ppm unless you have some ludricrous overpowered system, which 2 soda bottles is not. When CO2 asphixiation occurs, it's with a pressurized system and during an end of tank dump where literally a jet of CO2 comes out. After reading your bottle build though, it doesn't sound like any yeast solution went into the tank, so I honestly don't know what to say.

You are right though, in that CO2 is only required for lighting over 2.5 w/g or so. But it benefits plant growth at almost all light levels. At this rate though, it's not even worth it anymore, I agree. Some Flourish Excel will work just fine.

[kenyth]

Sorry to hear that Hobbs :( It sounds like you have had a very rough past few days, and I feel I am partly to blame because I keep egging you on to get CO2 running.

Again, I agree with Kenyth on what happened. Gaseous CO2 doesn't cloud water, ever, because it's fairly inert and doesn't react with much. And asphixiation is out of the question, because it's nearly impossible to inject enough CO2 via a yeast solution in a larger tank to go over 30-40 ppm unless you have some ludricrous overpowered system, which 2 soda bottles is not. When CO2 asphixiation occurs, it's with a pressurized system and during an end of tank dump where literally a jet of CO2 comes out. After reading your bottle build though, it doesn't sound like any yeast solution went into the tank, so I honestly don't know what to say.

You are right though, in that CO2 is only required for lighting over 2.5 w/g or so. But it benefits plant growth at almost all light levels. At this rate though, it's not even worth it anymore, I agree. Some Flourish Excel will work just fine.

Yeast and sugar got into that tank somehow (It doesn't have to be much). I can almost guarantee it. The slimy coating sounds like yeast colonies and their by products during primary (aerobic) fermentation. Four inches is not a lot of headspace for a vigorous fermentation with softer water that foams easily. It probably happened overnight and the blow out was done by the morning. With sufficient food, yeast will rapidly reproduce and consume almost all available oxygen within 24-48 hours at room temperature. Then, it's still not done. It goes into anaerobic mode and consumes the rest of the available food at a slower pace. Modern engineered yeast will outcompete almost all other micro organisms given the right conditions. That's what it's designed to do.

Most of that is beside the point though. Most aquatic life would not survive the initial depletion of oxygen.

[sergo]

asphixiation

[Chrona]

Yeast and sugar got into that tank somehow (It doesn't have to be much). I can almost guarantee it. The slimy coating sounds like yeast colonies and their by products during primary (aerobic) fermentation. Four inches is not a lot of headspace for a vigorous fermentation with softer water that foams easily. It probably happened overnight and the blow out was done by the morning. With sufficient food, yeast will rapidly reproduce and consume almost all available oxygen within 24-48 hours at room temperature. Then, it's still not done. It goes into anaerobic mode and consumes the rest of the available food at a slower pace. Modern engineered yeast will outcompete almost all other micro organisms given the right conditions. That's what it's designed to do.

Most of that is beside the point though. Most aquatic life would not survive the initial depletion of oxygen.

Ah, I see, we were talking about different things. I was referring to asphyxiation due to extremely high injected CO2 levels, whereas you were talking about the yeast using up all the oxygen in the water. Though I only have about 2.5 inches of headway, and I've never seen any kind of yeast in the tubing.

[kenyth]

Ah, I see, we were talking about different things. I was referring to asphyxiation due to extremely high injected CO2 levels, whereas you were talking about the yeast using up all the oxygen in the water. Though I only have about 2.5 inches of headway, and I've never seen any kind of yeast in the tubing.


I'm not refuting anything you're saying, as a matter of fact we were agreeing on the important points as far as I can see. I'm primarily just flapping my gums on the subject. I don't mean to sound like a know it all, but being a home brewer, I know about yeast firsthand.

We take advantage of it's characteristics for bread and other fermented products, but those characteristics evolved as survival mechanisms. In small areas of water with a food supply it quickly makes an environment toxic and inhospitable to other life, allowing it to flourish unhindered.

[Lady Hobbs]

I feel like I crawled on the insanity bus last week and forgot to get off at my stop. I would hate to think that all this work (and death) was caused by me having the one line too long in the bottle which sucked out too much sugar/water but I can think of no other logical reason for this mess myself. If this is the cause, then I shot myself in the foot, didn't it?

I think I have to go along with your explanation, Kenyth, because as stated in my first post I noticed a change in clearness of the water within an hour. I did unhook the CO2 then, however, so why it continued to progress during all those night time hours I don't know.

I blamed the dang fluorite before and blamed my crummy lights but in truth, it's something that I did very wrong and your explanation is the only one that I can wrap my brain around and make logic of. I mean, everything goes to hell as soon as I hooked up the CO2 so what else could it be!

Just as you described, my entire tank was covered in white slime. I know of no algae that takes over an entire tank enough to kill fish in 6 hours. Maybe I should have licked it off to see if it tasted sweet like sugar! LOL

Thanks oddles for your help. I think you hit it on the head.

Chrona! None of this was your fault. CO2 is beneficial to plants. We all know that and your urging to use it had nothing to do with me doing it wrong! It's not your fault I screwed this up!

[Lady Hobbs]

asphixiation

Absolutely! If you'd have seen those angels with their heads above water it was easy to see they were oxygen deprived. I've never seen anything like it in my life. I grabbed the featherfin in my hands! Now, grabbing a catfish that goes with the speed of light would not be easy at any other time. Neither would me grabbing one of those babies with killer barbs but I did in my rush to get him out.

He is once again happily fighting with the other one. :19:

[sergo]

maybe we should try this co2 thing on a tank with no fish in it for a bit and work out all of the bugs. is there any way the bottle cooled down and allowed some of the solution to gut sucked into the tank. was there any fluid in the lines, there would have to be if this is actually what happened.

[Lady Hobbs]

I already got to experiment twice with my tank. Now it's your turn. LOL

[sergo]

I already got to experiment twice with my tank. Now it's your turn. LOLmine is working fine. sergo beats hard on wood

[Chrona]

Yeah, Hobbs, it appears to be just you lol. Hungryhound had lots of other troubles with CO2, but nothing like this :hmm3grin2orange:

[2manyfish]

Lady Hobbs~
First let me say that I am very sorry for your fish loss, but I'm even more sorry that you are beating yourself up for it!! It wasn't like you did this on purpose, it just happened. And in this hobby, unfortunately, things like this happen!! How that yeast got into your tank (and I believe it did too) is something you may never know. You did everything right when you noticed the tank clouding up. You turned the reactors off, you added an airstone.... So please stop beating yourself up over this!!

I've never gone much for high tech. I'm not into mechanical things that have to be tweaked, etc...so when I did my planted tanks I just made sure that there was enough lighting 2 to 2.5 watts per gallon, minimal surface agitation and I used regular potting soil on the bottom of the tank about an inch thick, then added 2 inches of regular gravel followed by one inch of small gravel on top of that. The plants I had grew very, very well. Mostly crypts, swords, twisted vallis, onion plants, even java moss and anubias will send runners into the soil. I did this for some potted lilies I had too. They even flowered in the tank which was very cool!
BTW for anyone reading this, it's important that the potting soil be just plain old potting soil! A big NO to fungicides, fertilizers, etc...added to the soil.

[soulmia]

Hobbs: Sending you so much love.... I know EXACTLy how you feel - you know that... but to also have your dog die... aw...
I don't want to say anything more..... it won't help any - but know that I'm saying a little prayer for you, your fish and doggie.

Much love,
Natasha

[Lady Hobbs]

I'm a MASS MURDERER.......lol The dog was not mine but was one I took care of many, many times. She was just here at my place for 4 days getting all prettied up.

[Lady Hobbs]

Thanks a bunch but as they say in real life.......Stuff happens.

You know, I've read about the CO2 set ups all over the web. Not one place I've read does it say to use caution that the airline inside the bottle is not too long. I hope when we pass the information on here that this bit of information is given to others. I certainly would have used more care had I known.

[Lady Hobbs]

Yeah, Hobbs, it appears to be just you lol. Hungryhound had lots of other troubles with CO2, but nothing like this :hmm3grin2orange:

Yea. I'm a dope alright. But how was I to know the liquid was being directly sucked into my tank? sheesh. I never in my lifetime would have figured that one out. We dicussed in depth the fact that "maybe" I had an inbalance of nutrients. Then it was considered that maybe my problem was due to NO nitrates....

Blah! All this time all I needed to do was cut another inch off my airline. :14: :14: :14:

Goes to show that sometimes the easiest solutions are those that are overlooked. I was looking at every angle and totally missed the obvious.

[gm72]

Wow, devastating loss. So sorry to hear this, very upsetting indeed.

[xoolooxunny]

hobbs, lets get down to business. Don't give up on the C02. first, my airline tube only goes in far enough to get a bead of silicone around it on the inside. thats probly less than 1/4 inch. second, I'm pretty sure you only have to worry about aquarium water getting sucked into the bottle, not the other way around. the water cools, contracting in the bottle, making a vacuum. Unless of course the line is in the actual solution. third, you can always make a seperation champer out of a 20 oz soda bottle. one airline coming in from the reactor, one going out to the tank, that way, if any fluid does get sucked into the tube, it will be dumped to the bottom of the 20 oz before going to the tank.
a check valve, if you go this route, will be unneeded as well.

I only have 1w/g of light, and i use two 1g jugs for my co2 in a 75g. no probs, just really healthy plants and really low algae growth.

[Chrona]

I recently gave up on the air tubing + bead of silicone because it was leak prone. Just get a brass barb with a screw in end at a hardware store (just ask there) for like 1.50 and you have a rock solid unit. Screw one end into the hole you drill in the cap and silicone around the edges.

[xoolooxunny]

Actually, I recently gave up on the air tubing + bead of silicone because it was leak prone. Just get a brass barb with a screw in end at a hardware store (just ask there) for like 1.50 and you have a rock solid unit. Screw one end into the hole you drill in the cap and silicone around the edges.

Hmm, next time i change solution, ill give it a try.

[Chrona]

Hmm, next time i change solution, ill give it a try.

You won't regret it. Maybe my silicone came apart after the second solution because I didn't clean the tubing well enough during installation, but since I switched to a glass diffuser, the much higher pressure necessitated a beefier setup anyways. I for one, really did not like the simple setup because it seemed so flimsy. Lemme know if you need a pic.

[cocoa_pleco]

DAM, that sucks.

I probably would have had the same incident if i made a DIY co2 system. TG for nutrafin

sorry for the loss

[Lady Hobbs]

Oh heck. I ain't giving up yet. Now I have to try it again just to see if the problem is solved or won't sleep for the next year or two. :) Hobbs is a die-hard, you know, and will keep at it until this solution is resolved.

I believe if the tank water was getting sucked back into the bottle, the bottle would have over filled. And it doesn't explain the heavy white coating on everything IN the tank. I was running my air pump for a while last night. It could be that pressure did indeed pull it out of the bottle and not the other way around but regardless, I have cut the line much shorter!

I need to muster up the courage to try it again, however. For the next few days I will be cycling this tank AGAIN and will give another go at it.......without fish.

I'm actually thinking of using this tank for dwarf cichlids and letting my angels fight it out where they are.

[Lady Hobbs]

Plumbers putty can be used in place of silicone. It may hold better.

[Chrona]

Hobbs, did you let the mixture cool for a few hours to room temperature before capping it and putting the tubing underwater?

[hungryhound]

Yeah, Hobbs, it appears to be just you lol. Hungryhound had lots of other troubles with CO2, but nothing like this :hmm3grin2orange:

CO2 check...algae....check....sigh...........

Hobbs, as we've learned (very quickly might I add) figuring out this planted tank thing isn't easy, but you've just got to keep plugging away at it (heaven knows we're still covered in algae) until you get everything at the correct balance :)

[Lady Hobbs]

LOL I haven't even gotten to the algae yet! Still doing the white slime. The aglae will come soon enough.

[kimmers318]

Okay......this thread is a sure convincer for me that I am NOT ever going to try a planted tank!!!! I will stick to the floating low lights that my fish like to eatthumbs2: . Sorry for all of your problems Hobbs, hopefully you will get things worked out next time.....we all know you will try again.

I do have one Q that may sound totally crazy, but why the heck, after being divorced for 28 years, did you get your ex husband and his wife a dog???? Especially knowing he likes to let them run loose and get killed by cars????? I get along quite well with my ex husband (as a matter of fact, his sister kept my oldest while I was on my honeymoon with current hubby, at the parents house where they both lived) but I can't see giving him gifts LOL!

[Lady Hobbs]

We've been divorced 38 years....not 28 so guess that makes it even odder. We were only married 9 years and he and his now wife have been married for 21. We had a very bitter divorce and he was hell on wheels for a long time after. Never paid child support and was at the top of my S*** list for a good many years.

I moved to FL and was gone for 15 years with no communication from him which was fine but when I returned home, and here come the kids again for dinners, etc, it just seemed right to ask their dad and step-mom to join us. Besides, I like her a lot and he no longer drinks so I now like him again, as well. My kids tease me that my only friends are my ex husband and his wife but actually, it's true. I stop in for coffee now and then, go clean their house (UGH), loan them my car, and we rather help each other out when needed. I will be helping him lay new kitchen tile very soon and he's building me a tank stand so being friends works a whole lot more than being enemies!! LOL

His wife is a mess physically and right now is unable to even walk. So whatever I can do for her to make her life more bearable is what I do. I was offered this pure bred Schnauzer 3 years ago so got it and took it to her. It really isn't the mystery it sounds like. They live in the country but face a busy road but the house is back a considerable distance from the road. The dogs they've lost have been over 20 odd years....mostly hunting dogs that liked to run loose. This darned dog wouldn't walk 20 ft away so her getting hit was a total surprise. I think she must have seen a squirrel and took off after it.

I lost a Yorkie in the same way so can feel for them. I had a beautiful yorkie that never went in the road but once.....and that's all it took. Mine saw a cat across the street. But the dog I have now never leaves the house without a leader rope. One time is enough, I figure, and being in the country doesn't matter as long as there are cars and roads.

Planted tanks! My best advice is to get a substract you can live with, have the lights you have to have (not get them after the plants die) and read about ALL my mistakes so none will be made by you. LOL And from the looks of things, my entire mess from the beginning as been this one problem but was continuous as I continued using the same set-up. So my problems have all been the same one ......just over and over.

:wink2: :wink2: :wink2: But alas, today my tank is cystral clear. Ya think I should hook up my CO2 ?????? sheesh

[Chrona]

Cut off the tubing until there's only a half inch in the bottle and give it another rip. No fish in the tank obviously ^_^

[Lady Hobbs]

I started them both up less than 10 minutes ago. This will be a strike out for me if I mess it up again. One bubbler took off within 5 minutes of putting it in the tank. The other hasn't begun yet and yes......I cut the line off at once inch in the bottle!

It was annoying have a wonderful, perfect looking tank for one whole day! *giggles

[Chrona]

lol. *waits*

[Lady Hobbs]

Staring at it, shaking my head, pointing my no-no finger, scrowling.......

[Chrona]

Staring at it, shaking my head, pointing my no-no finger, scrowling.......

LOL

can't forget waving the wooden spoon

[Lady Hobbs]

I will haul out the middle finger if things go wrong again!

And sprew language that would embarrass a sailor.

[Lady Hobbs]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.] Nothing yet.

[2manyfish]

Well?



Geesh. You musta got married at 13!!
And that's very nice of you to help out his second wife like that!! Kudos to you!!! thumbs2:

Sorry to hear that she is messed up physically. My sister-in-law has MS so sometimes she has real problems doing anything. Where did you live in Florida? I've lived in Pinellas County FL for the last 27 years.

[Lady Hobbs]

I lived in Punta Gorda/Port Charlotte......home of Hurricane Andrew. I moved from there and now am in Michigan, tho.

Where is that Kenyth. I'm dying to tell him CO2 has been up and running over 8 hours with no problems at all. He sure solved a big problem for me!

(Geesh. You musta got married at 13!! ) LOL No way. I am the granny of the forum. I'm 63.