Microbubbles!!!

[pskarr]

hello all! i've been reading this forum for a few months now, but this is
my first post. i have a penguin 350 on a 40 gallon tall freshwater tank and
it's been giving off a large number of microbubbles. really tiny bubbles that
give the appearance that the tank is full of debris. i have live plants, but not what would be considered heavily planted.
i have 9 kribs, 1 syn. petracola, 1 bristlenose pleco and a snowball pleco.
i also use a cheapo co2 infuser (tablets), but not on a regular basis.

i've eliminated the following: crack or hole in j-tube that may be letting in air (took it off and checked it...it is air-tight), water level (i get the same bubbles w high and low levels), filter media (i've changed the filters and ran them in different slots, to no avail).

even if no one has a solution, i'd like to know that i'm not the only person with this issue. from the research i've done, the only people i've found with a similar problem have saltwater tanks.

thanx!

p.

[Lab_Rat]

You may need to raise the water level, it could be splashing down too far, creating the bubbles. If they're primarily after a water change then it's just degassing.

Interesting stocking, are the kribs all adults?

[wynnEZ]

When you say you fixed the intake tube what does that intail?

[pskarr]

i just checked it to make sure it wasn't drawing air in anywhere. it didn't need to be fixed.

[pskarr]

none of the kribs are adults yet. they vary in size at the moment.

[wynnEZ]

So is there a crack in it?

[Lab_Rat]

The biowheel part may also be contributing. Maybe try taking it out and see what happens. They don't do much anyway from what I can tell, I consider them more of a gimmick.

[pskarr]

no, it's air-tight.

[Deleted User]

I don't think it could be the bio-wheel, but it wouldn't hurt to take it out and see (but keep it in the tank to preserve the bacteria). While the bio-wheel may be somewhat overly touted, I do think they're valuable especially for people who use disposable cartridges (I do not). They are a "home" where the good bacteria lives and isn't thrown away. I have four filters like yours, a couple 200's and others (Eclipse) with bio-wheels.

Is there any chance the "air" bubbles are building up and being released from your substrate?

[pskarr]

Is there any chance the "air" bubbles are building up and being released from your substrate?


hmmm, not sure...my only experience with air bubbles from substrate is when
the tank/substrate is new. this tank is about two months old, so no visible
air bubbles on the substrate anymore.

is it maybe just too much filter for the 40 gallon tank? i.e. a penguin 200
may be better suited?

thanx for the suggestion jill...that's the type of responses i was hoping for.

[Deleted User]

I don't think it would be too much filter. I'm using 200's on 20g tanks and on 55g tanks, I'm running one 350 Penquin and one Tetra 60 on each (two filters on each).

[Deleted User]

I thought of one other thing. Are you using the mid-level intake on the intake tubes? Mine have an end intake and also one that you can put 1/2 way up the intake if you choose. I do use the mid-level and end-level intakes on mine. If you are or are not using it, maybe do the oposite (ie, if you have the mid-intake on, take it off... if you don't have it on, put it on). Maybe that will make a difference (?).

[cfgsteak]

Are micro-bubbles a problem?

[wynnEZ]

Are micro-bubbles a problem?

They just make the tank look cloudy and I find them annoying.

[bushwhacker]

if your sure its just bubbles, i wouldnt know what to suggest but it may be debris in the filter. i know if i dont keep mine clean i can get cloudy water, almost looks like bubbles but its just dust. open top tanks

[Deleted User]

Is there any chance what you're seeing is really a bacteria bloom?

Or on the heels of what Bushwhacker just noted, what is your filter media? I know some stuff is very fine and can "spill" out of the filter bags if the mesh isn't ultra fine (I'm thinking of Purigen as an example).

[wlepse]

I think I have something similar to what you are describing. I find it kind of amusing since the fish think the little bubbles are food and try chasing them down. But I think mine is due to the aeration I am running. I have mine near the back of the tank in the middle. The outlet from the HOB is just to the right of it and the current created pulls the bubbles into the stream of water. When I have shut off the air pump these bubbles drop off significantly. But it takes a while for them to completely dissapate since they get entrained in the circular current. I could just move my aerator but like I said I think it is kind of funny to watch and mine isn't that bad that it clouds the water.

[pskarr]

I thought of one other thing. Are you using the mid-level intake on the intake tubes?

i do use that intake, yes. i'll try re-installing the cover plate for it
and see what happens.

i also pulled the bio wheels last night (left them in the tank), and that
seemed to help in that the microbubbles became larger bubbles that
dissipated quickly. i can live with that scenario, but not sure what effect removing the bio wheels will have. any thoughts?

[wynnEZ]

I do have micro bubbles in my tank but theres not very many of them, follow Jill's advice and see if that cover plate works. Also I know you tried different water levels, but where is it now?

[pskarr]

my water level is what i would consider pretty high. i like to keep
the water level up to the lower edge of the upper frame (plastic frame
surrounding the top of the tank) so you can't see the water's surface
if viewing the tank from the front.

[wynnEZ]

Thats where I keep mine also, other than what Jill said I'm out of ideas.

[Wild Turkey]

If i read this correctly your airstone bubbles get pulled into the filter intake?

Try correcting this, its just a guess but when you run co2 you use this method to get a little more diffusion, so it could be the culprit imo.

I agree with trying to remove the bio-wheel, thats increasing gas exchange so it could also have something to do with it.

I also I agree with lab rat when she says she thinks they are mostly a "gimic". The only people Ive ever seen go crazy for this device are the people who are trying to sell me one.

[Lab_Rat]

i do use that intake, yes. i'll try re-installing the cover plate for it
and see what happens.

i also pulled the bio wheels last night (left them in the tank), and that
seemed to help in that the microbubbles became larger bubbles that
dissipated quickly. i can live with that scenario, but not sure what effect removing the bio wheels will have. any thoughts?

You'll lose some of the biofilter but as long as the media in the rest of the filter is well established you shouldn't have an issue. Just keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrite at first and don't add new fish for a couple of weeks.

Like Turk said, the people who push the biowheels are sales people or those who simply don't have much practical experience in fishkeeping. They sound like they should be totally awesome and were all the rage at first but I do not really see a difference with or without them. If you do change out the cartridges instead of just rinsing them I would have a piece of foam behind them that doesn't get changed (because it won't get clogged) to serve as extra biofilter area.

[Taurus]

Best option, buy an Aquaclear 70 or 110 HOB Power Filter or a medium sized canister sometime in the future.

[wlepse]

If i read this correctly your airstone bubbles get pulled into the filter intake?

Try correcting this, its just a guess but when you run co2 you use this method to get a little more diffusion, so it could be the culprit imo.


That was something I posted not the OP...but I am not getting the bubbles sucked into teh intake. The intake is on the far right of the tank but the outlet is near the center where teh airstone bubbles up. So the current created by the outlet of the filter entrains some of the gas bubbles and sweeps them through the tank.

[Wild Turkey]

That was something I posted not the OP...but I am not getting the bubbles sucked into teh intake. The intake is on the far right of the tank but the outlet is near the center where teh airstone bubbles up. So the current created by the outlet of the filter entrains some of the gas bubbles and sweeps them through the tank.

Thank you for the correction. When 2 people on the thread use the default avatar it can be hard on my terrible eyes :hmm3grin2orange:

[Taurus]

Here's something to note. Don't let air bubbles get sucked into your filter intake because they can cause the impeller to cavitate and wear prematurely.

[Deleted User]

I'm curious to ask those of you who have concluded that the bio-wheels are essentially useless -- How were you able to measure the amount of bacteria housed in bio-wheels and determine it was an insignificant amount?

[dustin0]

hello all! i've been reading this forum for a few months now, but this is
my first post. i have a penguin 350 on a 40 gallon tall freshwater tank and
it's been giving off a large number of microbubbles. really tiny bubbles that
give the appearance that the tank is full of debris. i have live plants, but not what would be considered heavily planted.
i have 9 kribs, 1 syn. petracola, 1 bristlenose pleco and a snowball pleco.
i also use a cheapo co2 infuser (tablets), but not on a regular basis.

i've eliminated the following: crack or hole in j-tube that may be letting in air (took it off and checked it...it is air-tight), water level (i get the same bubbles w high and low levels), filter media (i've changed the filters and ran them in different slots, to no avail).

even if no one has a solution, i'd like to know that i'm not the only person with this issue. from the research i've done, the only people i've found with a similar problem have saltwater tanks.

thanx!

p.
As some people said if you dont want the bubbles. Fill the water up to the top of the filter so you dont hear the water enter the tank anymore

[terrapin24h]

I experienced the same behavior when running my emperor 350 and after fairly extensive investigation i came to the conclusion that the bubbles are made as result of a combination of 4 things:
--waterflow rate(my emperor would only make bubbles when the flow rate was on high)
--Water level: the higher the water level, the more the bubbles
--Bio wheel rotation rate: The faster the more bubbles.
--"gook" on the wheel

My theory was that the bubbles were created by trapped air pockets on the wheel. If the wheel was going around too fast, they wouldnt have a chance to equalize. Similarly, if the tank water level was too high they would have more of a straight line into the tank, and not get "popped" on anything(like the waterfall chute). Also, as the wheel became more "seasoned" it tended to do it more.

Things i suggest you try:
--if your filter has a flow control, turn it down a notch
--take off the wheel, submerge it in your tank and brush it with a soft bristle brush(careful not to tear it) Also clean the end caps. Cleaning it in the tank assures you don't kill it. I used to clean in between the pleats about every 6 weeks or so
--try to adjust the bio wheel nozzle tube so the wheel turns slower, so it absorbs more water. The more water in the wheel, the less space there is for air.
--try dropping your water level a bit. The side effect of this is that you will think you have a brook in the room.

I found these things to help alot with the mini bubbles, though even trying these sometimes i just couldn't get rid of them. After a while though i was able to practically eliminate them.

In terms of effectiveness, i think the biowheel filters do a great job. Tons and tons of aeration, lots of water movement, and a great bio filter. I don't know if the biofilter is any better than any other bio media, but from personal experience i can say they *work* and do so well. Otherwise the 30 fish i had living with it wouldn't have thrived quite so well. I even ran it on my 65 gal tank for a couple months until i got a canister and got it seeded. The only 2 areas i think they fall down in are noise and the fact that they can suffer from bypass as the media clogs.

hth

--chris

[pskarr]

--if your filter has a flow control, turn it down a notch

--try to adjust the bio wheel nozzle tube so the wheel turns slower, so it absorbs more water. The more water in the wheel, the less space there is for air.



thanx for taking the time to read my original post, chris. i'm not sure if the penguin 350 has an adjustable flow rate. my thinking is that is does not. anyone with experience on this?

and what the heck is the bio wheel nozzle tube? adjustable?

on a side note, i haven't been able to figure out how to add a pic
to my posting avatar. could use some help!

[Deleted User]

My Penguin 350's do not have a an adjustable flow rate.

[terrapin24h]

my emperor has a tube with holes in it that squirts the biowheel, causing it to turn. I can turn this bar to control the speed of the wheel rotation by changin how water is directed from the "jets" onto the wheel. My emperor is a 280 model(single wheel)-- i mis-stated it's model in my first post. I thought the penguin and emps were essentially the same, but apparently they aren't. Maybe another penguin owner can help you figure out how to implement what i did with your penguin. I'd certainly start by cleaning the wheel in the tank. That may go a long way to helping you. On the plus side, you've got great gas exchange going on :hmm3grin2orange:

--chris