New 3 Gallon tank

[tmartini]

Hi Everyone. I’m sure the subject of the post has created a collective groan. “Here we go again…” I’ve been lurking on this board and others and have seen the disastrous results of people overstocking small tanks. I am new to the aquarium hobby, and have been doing a lot of reading on the subject. I’m trying to get started in a way that involves the smallest possible financial investment. I’m also trying to avoid massacring all forms of life while I learn the ropes. This seems like an excellent community. I’m hoping to get some guidance here. I promise to be sensible and heed your advice ;)

Here’s where I’m at: I’ve got a 3 gallon tank with an UGF and a 15W incandescent light. No heater. I received this free from a co-worker.
I intend to set this up in my office. The air temp is a consistent 74. I don’t have a thermometer yet for the tank, but this will obviously be a “coldwater” set up. The tap water is hard. There was some dubious history to this tank. The previous owner believed it to be “poisoned” in some way (as a prank or whatever..). I personally think it most likely an ammonia spike, but to be safe I’ve cleaned everything out with a very dilute bleach mixture. I realize that sterilizing this way will probably make my initial cycle take a lot longer, but I’m ok with that.

I have about a 2” inch substrate of 3-5mm new gravel. I filled the tank and am running it for a few days with a couple extra drops of dechlor to make sure that any residual bleach is eliminated (although I did rinse everything thoroughly).

I do intend to do a fishless cycle. I got some Tetra 5 in 1 “Easy Strips” freshwater testing strips, but realize now that it doesn’t include an ammonia test. Anyone have any suggestions as to whether I should I just get a separate ammonia kit or start over with a different multi test kit? Also, I could use some advice on where to find suitable ammonia for doing a fishless cycle?

Regarding bio load…

Plants

I would like to have some java moss and a java fern. It’s my understanding that these are extremely hardy plants that might do well in my set up. I know that I can get a florescent bulb for my fixture, but I’m a little concerned that it might actually be too much light for this tank and lead to algae problems. I was thinking I would see how things went with the incandescent (bought a new one) first… Thoughts?

Critters

I’m thinking some freshwater shrimp would work nicely. I’d love some feedback on that possibility. Also, I’ve read that it may be reasonable to support 2-3 white cloud minnows in a setup like this. What do you guys think about that?

Thanks in advance. Sorry for such a long post. I appreciate your time.

[hungryhound]

First off welcome to the board.

I’m trying to get started in a way that involves the smallest possible financial investment. I’m also trying to avoid massacring all forms of life while I learn the ropes.

These two principles do not necessarily go hand in hand. The smaller the tank the less room for error that you have. It is normally best to set a budget and get the largest tank you can, but you cannot argue with a free fish tank. :)


Here’s where I’m at: I’ve got a 3 gallon tank with an UGF and a 15W incandescent light. No heater. I received this free from a co-worker.
I intend to set this up in my office. The air temp is a consistent 74. I don’t have a thermometer yet for the tank, but this will obviously be a “coldwater” set up.

Wait. You say you do not have a thermometer yet and then say that this is going to be a cold water setup. If you are going to do cold water you do not need to buy a thermometer, but if you are going to do tropical, then you need a thermometer. At least as a backup.


The tap water is hard. There was some dubious history to this tank. The previous owner believed it to be “poisoned” in some way (as a prank or whatever..). I personally think it most likely an ammonia spike, but to be safe I’ve cleaned everything out with a very dilute bleach mixture. I realize that sterilizing this way will probably make my initial cycle take a lot longer, but I’m ok with that.

I have about a 2” inch substrate of 3-5mm new gravel. I filled the tank and am running it for a few days with a couple extra drops of dechlor to make sure that any residual bleach is eliminated (although I did rinse everything thoroughly).

That was probably not a bad idea. Running the tank with excess water treatment will most likely not do anything as the water treatments work in the first 10 to 20 minutes. So you are most likely ready to start fish less cycling now.

Having a heater here will greatly help you out as the bacteria you are looking for grow much better at higher temperatures.


I do intend to do a fishless cycle. I got some Tetra 5 in 1 “Easy Strips” freshwater testing strips, but realize now that it doesn’t include an ammonia test. Anyone have any suggestions as to whether I should I just get a separate ammonia kit or start over with a different multi test kit? Also, I could use some advice on where to find suitable ammonia for doing a fishless cycle?

Most people will advocate that you do not use the easy strips as they tend to be more inaccurate than the liquid test kits. I would recommend getting a liquid test kit, but since you do not want to spend money. i would just pick up the ammonia liquid test kit. It will be very important in the early stages of the fishless cycling to determine parameters and it is good to have on hand when you encounter any problems in the tank.



Regarding bio load…

Plants

I would like to have some java moss and a java fern. It’s my understanding that these are extremely hardy plants that might do well in my set up. I know that I can get a florescent bulb for my fixture, but I’m a little concerned that it might actually be too much light for this tank and lead to algae problems. I was thinking I would see how things went with the incandescent (bought a new one) first… Thoughts?

You should have no problems growing java moss and java fern. One thing to keep in mind is how much light your tank is going to get in addition to the light bulb overhead. Do not place it in direct sunlight as no matter what bulb you have, this will cause an algae bloom.

personally i have a five gallon with a 10 watt compact flourecent bulb that is glowing over some java fern, anubis nana, and some moss. They all seem to do okay. I have yet to have any algae problems. I think that going to a compact flourscent bulb might hel p your plants grow but is not necessary. I doubt it would give you many more algae problems, provided it is not in line of direct sunlight.



Critters

I’m thinking some freshwater shrimp would work nicely. I’d love some feedback on that possibility. Also, I’ve read that it may be reasonable to support 2-3 white cloud minnows in a setup like this. What do you guys think about that?

Thanks in advance. Sorry for such a long post. I appreciate your time.

I believe most freshwater shrimp are tropical and white cloud minnows are tropical minnows which the addition of a heater might make them a little more comfortable. Other than that I see no reason why these could not be housed in your tank.

[tmartini]

Thanks a bunch hungryhound!

I'll see what kind of small heaters are availible at my LFS. I guess that will help with the cycle regardless.

[Chrona]

Amano shrimp can do well in coldwater situations, though, to be honest, a tropical tank allows you many more choices for livestock.

Unless the tank has a full hood, just get a fluorescent desk lamp with a 10-20 watt bulb and adjust the height accordingly to avoid algae.

Make sure you use a dechlorinator on the tank before trying anything

Hungryhound has given you some good advice :thumb:

[Willyleigh]

I believe most freshwater shrimp are tropical and white cloud minnows are tropical minnows which the addition of a heater might make them a little more comfortable. Other than that I see no reason why these could not be housed in your tank.

Just to pick up on the bit in bold, white cloud minnows were discovered in streams on white cloud mountain in China, therefore the water temperature will be low, they can however survive an enormous range, from freezing to tropical temp.


I have heard of someone who kept white clouds in a pond and they bred succesfully for many years.

[hungryhound]

Just to pick up on the bit in bold, white cloud minnows were discovered in streams on white cloud mountain in China, therefore the water temperature will be low, they can however survive an enormous range, from freezing to tropical temp.


I have heard of someone who kept white clouds in a pond and they bred succesfully for many years.

Thanks for the insight. I did a little bit of research and it said that they could be kept in tanks from anywhere from 50 to 90 degrees and with the higher temp I assumed that they were tropical. That and the fact that I believe they are related to the zebra danio.

I guess that is what i get for assuming.

It is allways cool to learn where all of these fish come from and how they survived in their native environment. It still amazes me that there are so many bright colored fresh water fish. I would think that environmental pressure would dictate that most fish be drab brown and green. But none the less, the variety of fish is amazing.

[bettaboy691]

white clouds can be kept at cooler waters, or tropicals. but they need a shoal of atleat 5+, too many for a 3gallon, they are quite active too, and need some room to move around. most shrimps are tropical, or do better in tropical, amano shrimps can live at cooler water temps. but isnt good for them. by buying a small heater, you would have the choice or amano shrimps, ghost shrimps, cherry shrimps, and more.
even a few ottos could be added a while after set-up to help with the algea.
just thank you for not putting a goldfish in there.

[tmartini]

Thanks to everyone for your replies! I did get a 50 watt heater. I've been doing some reading on shrimp... very cool.

If the white clouds are not such a great idea, can anyone reccomend other small fish that might do well (and not harrass shrimp). Since the shrimp would be bottom dwellers it would nice to a fish (or fishes) that spend most of their time in the "water column" so to speak... Is a few tetras a bad idea?

[Chrona]

Thanks to everyone for your replies! I did get a 50 watt heater. I've been doing some reading on shrimp... very cool.

If the white clouds are not such a great idea, can anyone reccomend other small fish that might do well (and not harrass shrimp). Since the shrimp would be bottom dwellers it would nice to a fish (or fishes) that spend most of their time in the "water column" so to speak... Is a few tetras a bad idea?

If you have not opened it yet, I would recommend returning it and seeing if you can get a 10-15 watt heater. The usual rule is 3-5 watts per gallon for heating, and too much can result in some big temperature swings as the heater kicks on an off, which is stressful for the fish. Sorry for not bringing that up earlier.

[tmartini]

If you have not opened it yet, I would recommend returning it and seeing if you can get a 10-15 watt heater. The usual rule is 3-5 watts per gallon for heating, and too much can result in some big temperature swings as the heater kicks on an off, which is stressful for the fish. Sorry for not bringing that up earlier.

Oh noes!

It was the smallest heater my (not so great) lfs had. It's already in the tank. I'll keep looking for a smaller one, and use this one just for cycling and hold on to it for my next tank.:ezpi_wink1:

[Chrona]

Oh noes!

It was the smallest heater my (not so great) lfs had. It's already in the tank. I'll keep looking for a smaller one, and use this one just for cycling and hold on to it for my next tank.:ezpi_wink1:

Ah I see MTS (multiple tank syndrome) is kicking in already ;)

[Drumachine09]

Ah I see MTS (multiple tank syndrome) is kicking in already ;)


Great diagnosis docter!

[tmartini]

I started my fishless cycle yesterday. I ended up having to add .6 ml of ammonia (the bottle is ammonia + softwater-- not sure the concentration) to get to 5 ppm on my ammonia test.

Today the water is cloudy, and there are a lot of bubbles on the surface of the water. Is this normal?

[Chrona]

I started my fishless cycle yesterday. I ended up having to add .6 ml of ammonia (the bottle is ammonia + softwater-- not sure the concentration) to get to 5 ppm on my ammonia test.

Today the water is cloudy, and there are a lot of bubbles on the surface of the water. Is this normal?

Cloudy water is normal, it's bacteria multiplying so fast they are visible in the water column. What do you mean lot's of bubbles? That aren't popping? You probably have a layer of surface oil. It's nothing to worry about.

[tmartini]

Thanks Chrona!

I'm using an UGF, and the bubbles from the air stone come out of the top of the tube near the surface. I ran the tank for a while before I added the ammonia and the bubbles would just bubble up to an area about the size of a silver dollar on the surface of the water over the tube and disperse. Today there is basically a blanket of bubbles covering about half the surface water in the tank. It's mostly just a single layer, but right above the tube it's almost like foam... o.0

[Gelo_USA]

my tank was like tht too when I had my ten gallons...
the bubbles take long to break in my tank too.... I have no idea why but when I got a bigger tank it doesnt happen anymore cause its more water surface....
u probably have the same problem I do but since ur tank is smaller it gets more concentrated just like on my 10G.....

[Gelo_USA]

Ah I see MTS (multiple tank syndrome) is kicking in already ;)

yeaa!!! when I got my 10g I never thought I would want more....
and after about 5 months I got my 40g and I m already looking for a bigger tank....

[tmartini]

Thanks Gelo!

I'll try to keep my hand wringing in check ;)

[tmartini]

I am on Day 8 of my fishless cycle, and still no nitrites. It's also still cloudy. Should I be worried?

[tmartini]

two weeks now and no nitrites :(

I'm worried I may have too much ammonia. The test for ammonia is super dark.

I have a slight trace of nitrates, which is weird.

I'm think I should at least stop adding ammonia for a while, and I'm considering a water change to rein it in a little bit. Thoughts?

[tmartini]

Just to follow up...

Things are in much better shape now. I think I was using way too much ammonia, and I'm not sure that ammonia I was using was appropriate. The ingredients listed soft water, ammonia and "quality control agents." The bottle didn't foam when I shook, so I thought it was cool but it made my water cloudy and the return from my UGF was kinda foamy and I had bubbles covering the surface area of my water (Yuck!).

I did a ton of giant water changes over the course of a week until the water was clear, the bubble issue went away, and the ammonia levels were measurable on my liquid test kit (around 2 ppm). I have not and will not add any more of that ammonia to the tank.

I added live plants to the tank (Java Moss, Java Fern, and Anubias). Within the last couple of days the ammonia level has disappeared. I have 2 ppm Nitrites and about 10 ppm Nitrates.

I know that I need to wait until the nitrites are eaten before I think about adding fish. The plants I ordered we're in kind of rough shape when I got them (some dying leaves - just a few). I'm thinking I might leave them in there for the time being as a source of ammonia... Is that crazy talk?

I'm really gun shy of adding any kind of store bought ammonia at this point.

Thanks for any input.

[NeonJulie]

Yikes I know all about those "quality control agents." So far the only brand I've come across unilaterally recommended is the ACE Hardware Janitorial strength. If you come across that, you probably don't need to worry. Other brands include Walmart are safe in some places, not safe in others, and they also have other stocks of different and vague ingredients, to replace when they are out of the Great Value brands (at least that's what I've picked up in 8 months of research.)

The first thing I read when you said "cloudy" + "bubbles at the top", and I thought "uh oh." The water changes were a good idea. You might consider running carbon, and stirring things up very very well to ensure nothing nasty has "settled" or stuck on to things.

The other thing you can look into getting is the Ammonia Alert from Seachem. I think it's only $6, but it's a constant reading and can save you money on ammonia test during the cycle process.

Sounds like a good tank for a Betta? I know everyone suggests that... but it's hard to get so much color AND personality and activity out of a small tank, whereas betta+shrimp/ADF/Otos would do it. (And now you have the heater.)

You could try a few of the white clouds (the thought on their schooling necessity is still out for jury per liveaquaria.com) But I think it's not very interesting to watch 3 little fish bob and hover and dart a few inches. A Betta will use up every inch of your tank, top and bottom, he will recognize you and possibly greet you :) , whereas those small types of fish tend to stick to the bottom-mid part of the water column, and swim just back and forth. You might not get to see all of their natural behaviour that you might with a different kind of fish, especially since it's said their colors show best when they are in higher numbers.

Edit: You don't want or need to exceed 5ppm in ammonia. If you see it go above much more than that, you should do a water change. A) too much ammonia will adversely affect the bacteria you're working for and prolong your cycle. B) too much ammonia will create a huge supply of the bacteria that converts to NitrIte. It will take a long time for your NitrItes to go down and the --> NitrAtes bacteria to catch up. I would know. I had to contact API about the NitrIte readings I got, because they were mint green. *lol* Dillution tests show something like 30ppm in NitrItes. :O

[Benny2k1]

I have a coldwater setup I love my little white clouds!!

i have had problems with amonia, overstocking and swimbladder but my white clouds have survived through it all and seem to be happy and thriving!

from what i have heard and experianced they are quite hardy!
its the goldfish that i have lost :(

[tmartini]

Thanks for the replies!

I'm having a lot of fun with it. I have given a lot of consideration to White Clouds and Bettas (they're both awesome). I think I'm going to end up going with 3-4 Endler's Live Bearers though:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I just think they're really cool.

Eventually I'd also like to add some cherry shrimp :)

Here is a pic of the current state (I need to clean the acrylic!):
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[tmartini]

I got my fish Thursday! (3 males, 2 female Endler's). Friday morning, there were two fry additionally...

So, today is day 5. All fish are well. Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrates are all reading 0. Couldn't be happier!!

Thanks to everyone for their help. It took a long while, but now I'm really glad I got my bacterial colonies healthy before adding livestock.

Also, I did I big pruning on Saturday and the plants are looking much better.

Have a good one!

[bettaboy691]

glad everything is well, but im concerned about your male/female ratio, they is suppose to be 1 male per 2-3 females. so i would consider to take back 2 males, or all the females.

[tmartini]

Thanks for the input BettaBoy! I'm planning a new 29g tank, and I'm hoping to use my current small tank as as sort of a 'seed' for that (for Endlers, bacteria in the gravel, and hopefully some plants as well).

I'll be able to switch around the male/female ratio once that's up. Also, I have a couple of friends with established community tanks who would love to take some off my hands.

I'm not sure I understand your concern about the male/female ratio though? It's my understanding that it's best to use several pairs to start a 'colony,' which is ultimately what I want to do. Can you give me a little more info as to your concerns?

[NeonJulie]

Generally speaking, you want more females to males because the males could harass the low number of females in the tank, and you want to spread around their attention. *lol*

[tmartini]

Ok, gotcha.

Thanks for the clarification. :)

[bettaboy691]

sorry i wasnt clear enough mate. i meant its better to have more females than males like neonjulie already said. otherwise the males fight with one another for the females and the females end up having all the males trying to mate with her.

[Rue]

...yes...3 to 4 females per male...

...and if you dont' want babies, get either females or males only...

[tmartini]

sorry i wasnt clear enough mate. i meant its better to have more females than males like neonjulie already said. otherwise the males fight with one another for the females and the females end up having all the males trying to mate with her.

I appreciate the heads up. I'll keep an eye out. It's not too rowdy in there at the moment. I would even say the old girls are enjoying the attention.:ezpi_wink1:

[tmartini]

...and if you dont' want babies, get either females or males only...

C'mon Rue! :ezpi_wink1: I know this is the begginer's corner, but we deserve a little credit..

:hmm3grin2orange: