Fishless cycle is done, but...

[gm72]

Yeah! My first ever fishless cycle is complete for the 40 gallon long. I added a variety of fish, 4 each dalmation mollies, silver lyretail mollies, red velvet swordtails, and gold mollies. Interesting thing is, all of the fish are doing fine EXCEPT two of the dalmation mollies. I got 2 predominantly black ones and two predominantly white ones. Both white ones are dead. Water parameters are rock solid, right where they should be. Any guesses as to what happened? I am at a total loss.

[Rue]

The Dalmations are my favourites too...and I also haven't had much luck with them...

...making they're weaker genetically for some reason?

Do you have salt in the water? Mollies really do much better with at least tonic levels of salt...

[Chrona]

It could have been they were just weak fish to start with, and the stress of moving was too much. How long and how did you acclimate them?

[gm72]

No salt in the water. Acclimated over 2 hour time period, 30 minutes for water temp, then about 33% water replacements over the next 1.5 hours in 30 minute increments. Question about the salt--would it harm snails, a rainbow shark, and/or corydoras? I'd like to add them at a later time.

[Drumachine09]

No salt in the water. Acclimated over 2 hour time period, 30 minutes for water temp, then about 33% water replacements over the next 1.5 hours in 30 minute increments. Question about the salt--would it harm snails, a rainbow shark, and/or corydoras? I'd like to add them at a later time.


You understand that rainbow sharks will be extremely aggressive, right? No salt for corys...or is that meds? i dunno


You also need to change your sig.

[gm72]

I was under the impression that as a specimen fish the rainbow shark would not likely be aggressive toward tankmates. Maybe I have wrong information, though? I can always change the stocking plan and, oh darn, have to get another tank for the rainbow in the future!

[Drumachine09]

I was under the impression that as a specimen fish the rainbow shark would not likely be aggressive toward tankmates. Maybe I have wrong information, though? I can always change the stocking plan and, oh darn, have to get another tank for the rainbow in the future!


Ive had lots of experiance with the little terrors, and they arent something you want in a peacefull community tank. Ive had them kill guppies before.

[gm72]

Got you, good to know, and thanks. I'll round out the tank with something else then. Maybe a school of neon tetras or something.

Do you think a rainbow would do well in my barb/dannio tank?

[Drumachine09]

Got you, good to know, and thanks. I'll round out the tank with something else then. Maybe a school of neon tetras or something.

Do you think a rainbow would do well in my barb/dannio tank?

It really a hit or miss thing. i dont reccomend them in anything but an agressive or semi aggressive tank. I suppose if you have it densly planted, with a lot of caves and stuff, he might be ok. he needs a dark place, as they dont like high lighiting, and also so he can mark it HIS territory. Having alot of plants and decor is a must with them, so they arent always seeing other fish.

[Lady Hobbs]

Did you leave them in the bag all that time? I will often put mine in a pail with some tank water that I've drawn out including their own water in the bag. After 15 minutes just net them and put them in the tank.

But (this will bring boo's) I don't do anything but bring them home and set them free. It only takes me 20 minutes for the ride home and there's not much chance for their water at the store and my water here at home to change much. My thoughts are sitting in that bag with the oxygen depleting can be no more stressful than just letting them out right away.

Most sites say to just float the bag for 15 minutes. Two hours adding to their stress may have been too much.

[gm72]

Great info, much appreciated. Maybe better then in a specimen tank from what you are saying.

Back to my salt question, as we have been here discussing this I have researched mollies and still find what I found before I bought them--some people add salt, others do not. I am just afraid that by adding salt I am limiting my options as to what else can go in the tank with the mollies. Any more opinions on that?

[Lady Hobbs]

Live bearers are said to do better in salt. If I had a tank with nothing but live bearers I would use it. In mixed company I would not. I don't use it personally.

Live bearers can easily bring ICK to a new tank because they are shipped in such large quantities. They're a good fish to quarantine for 2-3 weeks in a separate tank if possible. If that isn't possible, check them out very well at the store and for several days after bringing them home and be prepared to treat them immediately. Actually all fish should be held in quarantine but sometimes that's not possible.

[gm72]

I bought the fish all at once yesterday. I am watching VERY closely this weekend and will continue to do so. So far none of the other fish are acting strangely at all, very active, playing in the current, etc. In response to your post, Lady Hobbs, I did go out and bought some meds just in case!

I don't think I will use salt, I really would like to have some corys and...well, just not sure what else yet, in this tank. Thanks for the advice as always!

[Rue]

I've done salt and no salt...and I find I do better with tonic levels of salt in my tanks...1 tsp/5 gallons...

...I have mollies and corys...

[gm72]

The corys don't mind the salt? When you say you "do better," what do you mean?

[Chrona]

The corys don't mind the salt? When you say you "do better," what do you mean?

Cories cannot tolerate salt.

As mollies are actually brackish fish, their osmoregulation is attuned to slight salinity. Of course, given proper acclimation, they can slowly adapt, but it doesn't change the fact that the addition of salt would be beneficial to them.

[Rue]

...by 'do better' I mean that the fish appear more active, healthier and I've had less deaths overall...

...I've had my cories with the tonic levels of salt for years...they're doing just fine...

I'm only using the 1 tablespoon/ 5 gallons of water...not more...

BTW...if anyone ever buys any fish from Petsmart...all stores use tonic salt levels in their tanks...I assume other large retailers do as well...

[Chrona]

The only real use of salt is to treat nitrite sickness, kill waterborne external parasites (such as ick), and to some extent, benefit mollies (even then, it's not necessarily NaCl they need). Fish have been regulating their osmosis just fine for millions of years.

That being said, I've seen from personal experience that a little bit of salt (1 tbs per 10g) does result in a more active molly. The same cannot be said of the other fish. And my plants certainly did not like it.

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[Rue]

The debate on salt is a 'hot topic' at the moment...so you're going to get conflicting results...I'm just posting what has worked for me over the years...

Other opinions:

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[Chrona]

The debate on salt is a 'hot topic' at the moment...so you're going to get conflicting results...I'm just posting what has worked for me over the years...

Other opinions:

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1) Note they say "certain" fish do better with salt. It is not a general purpose solution. And the writer even states that he/she has no idea what the logic behind adding salt is. His/her second paragraph detailing why salt is useful gets two things right, the nitrite and the ick part. Making a fish feel more "at home"? I mean, come on. That's blatant "I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll add quotes and make a general comment" Second, why on earth do freshwater fish require sodium and chloride in the water? And third, many fish, such as angelfish/tetras/discus/etc come from water with low salt and total dissolved solids and are often placed in tap water with high calcium/magnesium content (hardness). Adding salt just compounds the already poor situation. The only time a fish would be transfered from a native region of high total dissolved solids or salt (not NaCl) content, is in the case of african cichlids. Even then, they don't need NaCl, they need general hardness and carbonates.

Under "Does XXXX use salt in our tanks," you'll notice he says that not adding salt in the angel/discus tanks has not made any difference.

Again, it sounds like the dealer heard something from a friend and decided to apply it without knowing what is going on.

2) Not sure what your point is here. It says cories can tolerate very little to no salt, basically what I said.

3) Ok, this contests the cories deal. As I have not had personal experience with cories, I will defer that and agree that there may be conflicting information in that case and I may be wrong.

4) Again, not sure why you posted this, as it goes to prove my point. Salt inhibits nitrite poisoning and kills (or helps to kill) external parasites. It even goes to say that salt is bad for cories. It goes into osmoregulation. Fish regulate their own osmosis just fine. I particularly liked the section about the "Magical powers of salt: protection, healing, and stress"

Thus far, the only thing that has gone against my statement is the initial site, which gives....well.....a fairly general description of the use of salt, we'll say. Also, there is the cories deal, but that is a minor issue in my opinion.

Not trying to dig on you or anything, but there is much conflicting information not because salt is still an unknown factor, but because the use of salt was advocated by someone at some time, and the actual REASON for doing so was long lost. Now people just think that adding salt helps in some way. Give me a scientific explanation, instead of the general bs, and I may think otherwise. By the way, anecdotal evidence is overrated. If I were to give advice solely based on my personal experiences, I would tell you that angelfish seem to do fine in a 10g tank.

[Rue]

I wasn't trying to prove either you or me right or wrong...I selected 4 sites that had varying opinions that show the controversy regarding tonic levels of salt...

...I also suppose...that the quality of local water may play a huge factor...

We routinely test for ammonia and nitrites/nitrates...but we don't usually test for salt...

[Chrona]

I wasn't trying to prove either you or me right or wrong...I selected 4 sites that had varying opinions that show the controversy regarding tonic levels of salt...

...I also suppose...that the quality of local water may play a huge factor...

We routinely test for ammonia and nitrites/nitrates...but we don't usually test for salt...

That's because we don't need to. In nature, sodium and chloride ions generally exist in only trace amounts, except in brackish or oceanic conditions of course. The trace element content of all water used in aquariums (unless you are using pure RO water) is plenty to sustain fish given routine water changes. People hear that in water, nature contains salt, and go right on adding NaCl into the tank, not realizing that salt is a general term in chemistry involving positive and negative ions forming a non charged compound.

And the the four sites did indeed have conflicting information. But if you will notice, the only one that goes against what I said about the uses of salt is the first site, and the writer still agrees on half the stuff. The other half, he has no explanation for, and merely uses general comments to hide his lack of research as well as anecdotal evidence that even he wavers on. The article I posted, and the article from the skepticalaquarist, give a scientific explanation of the actual uses of salt. It should be fairly easy to spot the bs.

In my eyes, it's not even a debate. The other side has yet to put forth anything other than anecdotes. By saying it's a controversy, we are just merely perpetuating the myth.

[Drumachine09]

That's because we don't need to. In nature, sodium and chloride ions generally exist in only trace amounts, except in brackish or oceanic conditions of course. The trace element content of all water used in aquariums (unless you are using pure RO water) is plenty to sustain fish given routine water changes. People hear that in water, nature contains salt, and go right on adding NaCl into the tank, not realizing that salt is a general term in chemistry involving positive and negative ions forming a non charged compound.

And the the four sites did indeed have conflicting information. But if you will notice, the only one that goes against what I said about the uses of salt is the first site, and the writer still agrees on half the stuff. The other half, he has no explanation for, and merely uses general comments to hide his lack of research as well as anecdotal evidence that even he wavers on. The article I posted, and the article from the skepticalaquarist, give a scientific explanation of the actual uses of salt. It should be fairly easy to spot the bs.

In my eyes, it's not even a debate. The other side has yet to put forth anything other than anecdotes. By saying it's a controversy, we are just merely perpetuating the myth.

You should write a book. im not kidding. That or be the president.

[gm72]

Okay, then. Wow, such a variety of information. I do appreciate the discussion, this is one of those topics such as the 1 inch of fish per gallon of water "rule" (and I do use the word "rule" exceedingly lightly) that raises eyebrows and confuses new aquarists. Well, it is confusing me, too. I am more for the non-use of salt...I think.

So here is a question. I am considering doing an experiment. What if I were to get 2 20 gallon tanks. Both with mollies. One with added salt, one without. Identical filtration and water changing. Yes, I know that there are wide differences between individual fish specimens. Anyone think this would be worth it? Or maybe worthless? OR, perhaps better yet, another excuse to simply add more aquariums?

[Rue]

...it's understood that mollies do better with salt...

...but it would be an interesting experiment to carry out with the corys...given how popular they are and given the conflicting (anecdotal or otherwise) info. out there...

[Chrona]

Okay, then. Wow, such a variety of information. I do appreciate the discussion, this is one of those topics such as the 1 inch of fish per gallon of water "rule" (and I do use the word "rule" exceedingly lightly) that raises eyebrows and confuses new aquarists. Well, it is confusing me, too. I am more for the non-use of salt...I think.

So here is a question. I am considering doing an experiment. What if I were to get 2 20 gallon tanks. Both with mollies. One with added salt, one without. Identical filtration and water changing. Yes, I know that there are wide differences between individual fish specimens. Anyone think this would be worth it? Or maybe worthless? OR, perhaps better yet, another excuse to simply add more aquariums?

It is certainly possible, but you need to be very careful about keeping all other conditions the same or the results of the "test" may end up doing more harm than good. And again, my argument was against the use of salt as a general tonic for everything. In the case of mollies, they WILL do better with a slight concentration of table salt. The same cannot be said for other non-livebearer species.

[gm72]

True, true. So the question perhaps becomes, for mollies anyway, can they survive without tonic levels of salt?

[Chrona]

True, true. So the question perhaps becomes, for mollies anyway, can they survive without tonic levels of salt?

Yes, mollies can live in everything from pure freshwater to pure saltwater. Slow acclimation is key though. Just ask what conditions the mollies are in at the LFS. Mine were kept in freshwater, so they did just fine when I brought them home and dropped them in after a 30 minute acclimation.

[gm72]

Interestingly enough, I have so far lost both predominantly white dalmation mollies and two silver lyretail mollies. Other tank inhabitants appear fine, no signs of illness whatsoever. Water parameters remain rock solid. Disappointing and...well, just disappointing.