Diagnostic Questionnaire:

[Discus_Dude]

Dear All:

Should you need help with diagnosing problems with your fish or tank(s), the following checklist and/or questions may prove valuable. Feel free to copy and paste it into your post in order to give those who wish to respond an overview of your issue, routine, and supporting systems.


DIAGNOTIC QUESTIONNAIRE:

General Items:
1. When did the problem start:
2. Are you using a quarantine/hospital tank:
3. Diet, what do you feed your fish:
4. Feeding schedule:
5. List tank inhabitants and sizes if needed:
6. How long have you had them:
7. Tank and filter cleaning schedule:
8. Where did you get them (breeder/Local Fish Store):
9. Medications/ salt treatments recently used or tried to treat this problem:
10. How long has your tank been up and running:

Physical condition or behavior of the fish (plus, when did it begin)
1. Bloated/ Constipated:
2. Clamped fins:
3. Cloudy eyes:
4. Darkened or Faded Color:
5. Excessive slime production:
6. Flashing/rubbing against tank objects
7. Loss of Appetite or Not eating:
8. Loss of balance
9. Pin like holes, craters around eyes/forehead or along the lateral line:
10. Rapid breathing, dysfunctional gill:
11. Red Sores or raised scales or bumps:
12. Sluggish:
13. Stays in the back or corner tank areas or pointed toward the back of the tank:
14. Stringy white feces:
15. Stringy mucus:
16. Swimming Upside Down:
17. Tilted upward/downward:
18. Visible parasites (describe appearance and location):
19. White spots, salt like flecks, velvety appearance, cotton like growths etc.:
20. Other unusual changes such as increased aggression:

Water parameters:
1. pH:
2. Hardness (GH//KH) :
3. Phosphates:
4. Temperature:
5. TDS:
6. Source: Municipal/Well, R/O (Reverse Osmosis), Rain Water:
7. Water change routine: i.e. 50 % daily, weekly monthly etc.:
8. Straight from the tap or Aged:
9. Appearance: i.e. cloudy, green, clear, yellowish, foam etc. :
10. Odor i.e. smells clean or sulfur-like/match smell

Water Conditioners/Buffers Additives:
1. De-chlorinator conditioner i.e. Prime:
2. AmQuel Plus
3. PH adjusters:
4. Salt:
5. Peat or other Resins:
6. Baking Soda, Crushed Coral, etc.:
7. Other: (i.e. Skimmer, Ozone, CO2, Carbon Reactor, etc)

Tank parameters:
1. Size in gallons/liters?
2. Substrate.? (Bare bottom, gravel, sand..)
3. Planted? (Please name or state if plastic)
4. Drift wood?
5. Other decorations:

Filter Types: (include “gph” rating/turnover and/or brand and model)
1. Wet/dry?
2. Canister (Hagen, Eheim, Rena etc) ?
3. Hang-on-the Back (AquaClear , Marineland, etc)?
4. Sponges?
5. Supplemental air?

Media Used:
1. Carbon
2. Floss/Foam
3. Cartridge
4. Sponges
5. Ammo-Chips

Lighting (for algae/plant growth issues)
1. Hood type:
2. Bulb type size, watts, and spectrum:
3. Light/dark cycle (number hours on/off)

[Lady Hobbs]

Very nice write up and thanks for the time it took you to write it and bring it to the forum.

[Crispy]

Great writeup DD! thumbs2:

[rich311k]

Very well done. That is a great idea.

[Discus_Dude]

Thanks All! In asking fellow hobbyist, breeders, and professionals alike, I've asked or been asked all these same questions myself. As you know, accurate diagnosis is important and can be very difficult without having enough knowledge of the effected tank's set-up, water and equipment cleaning routine, water parameters and so on as listed above.

I hope this (not so short) quick reference will at least help when needed to think of the many things that should be evaluated in order to maintain a healthy ecosystem for our fish.

Best Always!

[naomilynn]

DIAGNOTIC QUESTIONNAIRE:

General Items:
1. When did the problem start: 2 days ago (although he has been thin for awhile, more on this later)
2. Are you using a quarantine/hospital tank:No (although im thinking about doing so)
3. Diet, what do you feed your fish: frozen bloodworms and cichlid delight along with some pellet food
4. Feeding schedule:9am and 9pm every day
5. List tank inhabitants and sizes if needed: 7 discus, two are wild. All different sizes. two 6inch, one 4inch, and four 2-3inch
6. How long have you had them: one 3inch for about 9 months, the rest i received by mail two days ago (and they are not sick...as of yet)
7. Tank and filter cleaning schedule: twice a week with RO water only
8. Where did you get them (breeder/Local Fish Store): online breeder in florida, and the one who is sick is from a local fish store
9. Medications/ salt treatments recently used or tried to treat this problem: tried treating with a hand full of salt (hear they can take small amounts of salt just fine) and my temp is at 87.
10. How long has your tank been up and running:3 years +

Physical condition or behavior of the fish (plus, when did it begin)
1. Bloated/ Constipated:none
2. Clamped fins:left fin only, today
3. Cloudy eyes:yes, two days ago.. but its on and off I have just finished treating this fish for a bacterial infection of his fins and his fins are now healing
4. Darkened or Faded Color: dark color, but only sometimes..he is a moody little fellah
5. Excessive slime production: no
6. Flashing/rubbing against tank objects: no
7. Loss of Appetite or Not eating: no
8. Loss of balance: somewhat tilted to the side but this may be because of his poor clamped fin..
9. Pin like holes, craters around eyes/forehead or along the lateral line:no
10. Rapid breathing, dysfunctional gill:no
11. Red Sores or raised scales or bumps:no
12. Sluggish:eh? sometimes, this goes in and out like his coloring
13. Stays in the back or corner tank areas or pointed toward the back of the tank: no
14. Stringy white feces: not sure
15. Stringy mucus:no
16. Swimming Upside Down:no
17. Tilted upward/downward:no
18. Visible parasites (describe appearance and location):no
19. White spots, salt like flecks, velvety appearance, cotton like growths etc.:no
20. Other unusual changes such as increased aggression:none

Water parameters:
1. pH:7.8
2. Hardness (GH//KH) : dont have a testing kit, local store is out I use only RO water so it should be rather soft
3. Phosphates: sorry guys dont know this one, feel free to educate me though
4. Temperature:87
5. TDS: also don't know about this one and please feel free to educate me .. =o)
6. Source: Municipal/Well, R/O (Reverse Osmosis), Rain Water:RO
7. Water change routine: i.e. 50 % daily, weekly monthly etc.:30% twice a week
8. Straight from the tap or Aged:Ro water from the super market
9. Appearance: i.e. cloudy, green, clear, yellowish, foam etc. : he is a solid blue discus he gets bright blue and happy then dark and sluggish but he always eats. and when he is dark he is never black just a dark blue. no one seems to be bullying him. He is also VERY thin, but always eats. Im thinking internal parasite? and if so do I separate him? or treat the whole tank? Everyone else looks fine cause they have only been in there for 2 days. Bad timing for new fish.. i know
10. Odor i.e. smells clean or sulfur-like/match smell: no odor

Water Conditioners/Buffers Additives:
1. De-chlorinator conditioner i.e. Prime: AmQuel plus
2. AmQuel Plus: yes
3. PH adjusters: none
4. Salt: a hand full and haven't done a water change since
5. Peat or other Resins:no
6. Baking Soda, Crushed Coral, etc.: no
7. Other: (i.e. Skimmer, Ozone, CO2, Carbon Reactor, etc) Melafix by API its an antibacterial fish remedy (just seems to be tea tree extract smells minty)

Tank parameters:
1. Size in gallons/liters? 60 gallon
2. Substrate.? (Bare bottom, gravel, sand..): white gravel which gave my tank OT syndrome a few months ago and killed off all my discus but one. Nitrate levels and ammonia are all very low. Ammonia is at 0 and nitrate 10ppm (which is good for where I live cause the water here has 20ppm minimum out of the tap) which is why I recently switched to only RO
3. Planted? (Please name or state if plastic) plastic
4. Drift wood? use to be, it has been removed and was replaced with plastic driftwood till i find a piece i like.
5. Other decorations: nothing

Filter Types: (include “gph” rating/turnover and/or brand and model)
1. Wet/dry? wet? I have a uniqarium (built in filter in the back) I dont know much about it but it has bio balls and maybe four chambers? Along with a white sponge type filter medium. I also have a bag of activated carbon in there and nitra-zorb.
2. Canister (Hagen, Eheim, Rena etc) ? no
3. Hang-on-the Back (AquaClear , Marineland, etc)? no
4. Sponges? see above
5. Supplemental air? see above

Media Used:
1. Carbon: yes
2. Floss/Foam: yes?
3. Cartridge: no
4. Sponges: not seems to be more of a floss/foam its pretty hard and white but still bendable etc but not like a sponge
5. Ammo-Chips: bio balls?

Lighting (for algae/plant growth issues)
1. Hood type:has a lid ill attach photos
2. Bulb type size, watts, and spectrum: UV and normal? Not to sure haven't bought a bulb in years.. one is blue light and one is yelloish light. both at the same time is a very bright white light
3. Light/dark cycle (number hours on/off): 9am on 9pm off

oh and I just looked at him again and he doesn't have his fin clamped to his side. everyone else looks fine he just doesn't look good at all. Here are some pics.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]


Main things id like to know:
internal parasites? if not then what is your best guess?
What and how to treat? with minimal stress
Hospital tank or entire tank?
Will my whole tank get it?
I ordered Metronidazole and it should be here tomorrow AM, Is this an okay treatment? thoughts?
Thank you for your help everyone!!!
Best,
Naomi

[Discus_Dude]

Have you ever de-wormed your discus? This is good to do when they are first new and on a periodic basis. Sometimes discus eat just fine, but you mentioned being thin and that is one sign that internal worms may be taking away nutrients.

You mentioned treating for a bacterial issues. What did you use? Furan 2?

What substrate do you have now? Gravel is not good for discus IMO because it's too difficult to maintain good water quality that discus require. Sand is okay because it won't trap waste and debris so easily. Bare bottom is really good if you're raising juveniles.

TDS=total dissolved solids, which is common calcium/magnesium and carbonate primarily in all our water. Discus like a range between 100-400, but tolerate higher. There are meters on eBay that measure TDS, but you're using RO water. Most folks add back in trace elements and nutrients that are good for fin and gill development. I personally use Kent's RO Right and their Discus Essentials to reconstitute my water for good health.

[Discus_Dude]

I just looked at your pictures (sorry). Your sick fish looks like a Blue Diamond. His eyes appear rather large for his body ratio, which is a sign of being stunted. This also supports the internal worms diagnosis that would limit growth if your discus isn't getting the nutrients that it needs from the food being eaten.

It's still very possible to put some growth on this little guy and get him back on track. If he is eating, I prefer medicated flake food that contains fenbendazole.

I buy from [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] given their pricing, great packaging, and qood sized quantities for the price.

It won't hurt to feed your entire tank. You feed only once a day every other day and no other foods during the treatment period.

BTW, your temp is high when bacterial issues are suspected. Reduce to 82 during bacterial treatments given higher temps promote bacterial reproduction.

Best of luck!

[naomilynn]

I have never dewormed, any certain kind you would suggest?
Also I have gravel now, I assume I should remove it as soon as possible and replace it with sand? I tried sand once in a 25 gallon and all it did was muck up the water, do you have to rinse it a ton?

Also should I not treat my tank with any medication then?

I used API's tripal sulfa, which never fails to kill off most of my fish. I used it and it didnt seem to do much so after two treatments I started using the APT teatree oil i talked about (melafix) and he seemed much much better, eating again etc. His fins are healing up very well, however he is skinny now and had black eyes.
Did you see my photo link? You can see him there along with the others, everyone looks great but him.

Thank you so much for your help, I cant thank you enough for helping me out.

[naomilynn]

just read your other reply, Awesome! Thank you so much!

So you don't suggest I treat the tank with the medicine i ordered? Also I have never fed them flake food, think they will get hungry enough to eat it? Sure hope so =o)

-Naomi

[naomilynn]

just ordered dewormer flake thank you!

[Discus_Dude]

Metro is best for Heximita...when your fish stay to the back of the tank, pointed toward the back, slow or stop eating altogether. It's good you'll have it on hand, but I don't think you need it IMHO.

I'm not a fan of Melafix/Pimafix. I think they're great for aiding in healing, but not curing. The drug of choice is Furan 2 which is a wide spectrum bactericide for both gram positive and gram negative bacteria. Mostly external, but also treat internal.

Also just to add regarding worms. PraziPro is great if they have tape worms and such. Between the PraziPro and the fenbendazole, it takes care of most worms issues. It's hard to say which worms he/she has, but these meds will take care of the issues. I would start with whichever one you can get the fastest. PraziPro is often sold in local fish stores or can be ordered online.

As for your gravel, you may find yourself with reoccurring illnesses, which stem from water quality issues that most likely could be eliminated with removing your gravel and getting a courser sand that still can be vacuumed. You could try just taking out most of the gravel to about an inch (enough to hold down your plants). I would also recommend adding another water change each week @ 30% each or do two @ 50% and see how that goes. Be sure to do a thorough vacuuming each time. These steps will greatly increase your water quality and promote growth. Be sure to wipe the inside of your tank down each time with paper towel to remove slime coat build-up, which also can foster bacteria growth.

Hope this helps.

[naomilynn]

can I deworm and treat for the bacterial infection all at once?

Update: all fish have mild cloudy eyes, ordered Furan 2 but wont be here till saturday... No one in town has it in stock.. Kinda worried.. Anything I can do to slow the bacterial thing down till the furan gets here? I lowered the temp to 82 it isnt there yet but should be within a day.

Also I will take out my rocks I think this is the reason my fish often fall ill, thanks again!

-Naomi

[Dkarc]

From my brief reading on the problem, first thing that sent a red flag up in my mind was that you got new fish a few days ago....and now they're sick (correct?). Lack of quarantine is the root cause for the current issue im sure. Also, I would avoid using straight RO for your water changes. All fish need minerals to survive (it affects metabolism, skeletal growth, nerves, etc). Whynot use tap water? Because of your nitrates in the water (20ppm)?? Honestly, they would do better in the tap water with elevated nitrate levels and having more stable conditions than being in mineral free RO water. Because it is straight RO, there is zero alkalinity in it which buffers the water against pH changes (alkalinity also helps fuel your biological filter as well).

As for a fix at the problem at hand.....if its just cloudy eyes, I bet salt and a GOOD tank cleaning/water change would go a long way. 1/2 cup salt per 10 gallons will get you in the 1-2ppt salinity range and should help a lot. That combined with a tank enema and things should be doing better. If in doubt Furan 2 would work fine, however I strongly believe it is a simple water quality issue. But if not dealt with soon it can become something more, requiring the use of antibiotics.

-Ryan

[naomilynn]

Just did a 50 - 60% ish water change. Tap in LA isn't very good. Since i switched them to RO they seem much happier. And I don't think there tank is 100% RO yet, just switched a bit ago. I ordered Discus essentials and RO right to add all the good stuff back in, cause I know your right.. lol

Also are you sure discus can take that much salt? Ive read a bit about it and people have heart attacks when you even put the slightest bit in.

They seem much happier now. I will change the water again tomorrow 20% or so and go from there.

I also took out most of the rocks. There are only enough to cover the bottom, and hold down a few plants (less than an inch) and when I was taking it out I felt awful for having it in there =o( all this muck came out. I have nitra-zorb activated carbon a poly filter and extra filter media to clean up the rest of the muck.

Thanks for all of the help I really appreciate it!

[Dkarc]

Just did a 50 - 60% ish water change. Tap in LA isn't very good. Since i switched them to RO they seem much happier. And I don't think there tank is 100% RO yet, just switched a bit ago. I ordered Discus essentials and RO right to add all the good stuff back in, cause I know your right.. lol

Also are you sure discus can take that much salt? Ive read a bit about it and people have heart attacks when you even put the slightest bit in.

They seem much happier now. I will change the water again tomorrow 20% or so and go from there.

I also took out most of the rocks. There are only enough to cover the bottom, and hold down a few plants (less than an inch) and when I was taking it out I felt awful for having it in there =o( all this muck came out. I have nitra-zorb activated carbon a poly filter and extra filter media to clean up the rest of the muck.

Thanks for all of the help I really appreciate it!

I have had discus at a salinity of well over 4-5 ppt with little issues long term. If you're going for a high salinity like 4-5ppt dont dump it all in at once, space it out over a day or so. Keep in mind though that this is regarding domestic fish and not wilds.

-Ryan

[Discus_Dude]

Some folks use salt at each water change...I'm not a fan of on-going usage, but do believe in its useful as a treatment depending on the health issues.

I would definitely add 1-2 tablespoons/10 gals, but I lean to the conservative end of usage.

I would vacuum out all the muck though. Think of food with mayo out in the sun at a summer picnic. It doesn't take long for harmful bacteria to form and fowl the water, so it would be with decaying food trapped in your tank or waste. That's why I'm not a fan of gravel.

With discus it's important not to overfeed where leftovers can settle to the bottom of the tank able to get stuck in the gravel. If this is an issue, you may want to cut back on feeding or increase your vacuuming of your substrate. I use a smaller 1/4" tube (like my drain tube into my RO storage barrel). It draws less water, but you can clean the bottom of the tank quicker. So I end up only removing 1/4 of the amount of water that I would with a gravel vac. Just an option.

Best of luck...and keep me posted.

[naomilynn]

I removed almost all of the rocks, My boyfriend says EVERYTHINGS gotta go. Fake plants fake drift wood, gravel.
Think this would be okay? Or will it take out a lot of the good bacteria also? And wont that stress them out?

Do you think it is better to use tap or RO right now? While I'm waiting for my RO conditioners to come. Maybe when I do a water change today half RO and half Tap?

Thanks for the help, also my fish arrant looking any better today. Actually a lot worse. Darker in color and the same cloudy eyes. Ill add the salt and go form there while I wait for meds to come.

[Discus_Dude]

The majority the nitrification process is in your filter media such as ceramic rings, so you'll be fine. I do think it would be a good idea to remove everything for now until you get your discus on the right track at the very least. I only have sand in my tanks..no plants, driftwood or other decorations until my fish are adult-size. The are much more stable health-wise when they are adults.

I am concerned for you if didn't get all the much out of your tank and go a very good cleaning. It's important.

If you really think they are getting bad, you could consider API's General Cure, which most fish stores carry, but if you think you can hold off good clean water and salt will go a long way.

[naomilynn]

in going down to Chatsworth to get discus essentials and Kents RO right. I think I'll do another major water change 50%? and remove everything.

I also picked up furan 2, think I should treat with it or hold off? They seem to be getting worse rather than better. even after my water change yesterday. I think I'll eventually throw sand back in and that's it, but I'll hold off till they r better.

thank you so much for your help, I hope this thread will help people in the future too.. lol

thanks so much!

[Discus_Dude]

I believe your Blue Diamond may have worms rather than bacterial given you just treated your tank for bacterial. Am I correct that your new discus are fine at the moment?

[Discus_Dude]

The thing with medicines...you don't want to rush to a quick judgment and pick the wrong medicine then have to switch. Medicines are difficult on our discus systems. So I just want to be sure I'm understanding your correctly with what is going on in your tank.

Like Ryan said earlier...mixing new fish with your existing discus is a gamble and quarantining new fish is important. Some folks quarantine for at least six weeks. The reason is due to what the new discus might bring into the tank or what the existing discus may transmit to the new discus. Even if they all appear health at the moment, there are dormant issues...carriers if you will that one or the other might pass along.

No worries though...we all make mistakes and I have made my share as well along the way. Just keep me posted and I'll help all I can.

So the sort answer is... no I wouldn't start Furan 2...good clean water and salt for a couple of days. Add 2 tablespoons of salt/10 gallons and I'll look for your answer to the question in post #21.

[naomilynn]

hey there

I didn't quarantine the discus which I know was a huge mistake. My one blue diamond does have internal parasites, I have prazipro now, thinking of soaking their food in it.

All of my fish have cloudy eyes and are darker in color now. They had cloudy eyes yesterday and now they have worse cloudy eyes and are darker in color. They arrant happy that is for sure.

I picked u discus essentials and Kents RO right. I have placed both in the tank along with the salt you have recommended. (that was earlier had to go to work)

Now I am back home and about to do a water change. for the fish add the salt RO right and discus essentials.

So you suggest I just change the water every day and watch for a few more days?
Seems to be getting progressively worse. I know that water is the biggest deal and ive tested it for nitrates nitrites etc

ammonia and nitrite are at 0 and nitrate is at 10ppm. going to change the water now and wait to see if I should medicate with Furan or not

Thanks again!

[Discus_Dude]

I sent you a PM for med instructions and dosage.

You can use salt with Furan after you do your water change today cleaning out any remaining muck (50% should be good). Keep lights out in and around the tank. Most medicines including Furan lose their potency over time. You will want to redose in 24 hours after your next water change of at least 25%. Normal dose this time.

Be sure to mix the Furan in warm non-chlorinated water to dissolve before adding to the tank. It will make your water yellow, but that's to be expected.

[Discus_Dude]

PS: keep an eye on your discus from time-to-time for possible reactions to meds. It's unlikely, but it's a good general practice to have. You should always be ready to do a water change if needed.