PH... To alter, or not to alter...

[domjd05]

I've noticed a growing trend on this site and other aquarists outside of the internet that have thrown away a long held notion about fish keeping:

EX:

If the fish you intend to keep, requires a PH of say...7.8-8.5 (like malawi cichlids for instance).. and your water from the tap is say.. 6.8, do you decide not to keep this fish, as you could risk causing damage to it overtime? Do you say "nah its farm-bred it'll be fine", and not alter the PH at all? Or do you use chemicals to try and change the PH?

I have to admit I'm a mixture of just not keeping the fish, and not changing the ph, but trying the fish anyway:14:

My PH is around 7.4 out of the tap, and I've kept discus in it, and they did seem to do well, I only got rid of them because of time/maintenance issues..

I am aware there are several "sub" issues attached to this

I am aware that farm-raised fish will not be as touchy to PH levels as a wild-caught fish would be, but I'm curious, how deep does this rabbit hole go??

[Northernguy]

I would like to see how the fish and tanks are treated by breeders.
I have talked to a few that just use whats available out of the tap.
It costs too much to treat the water to keep proper ph levels that the fish have in the wild.
I think if the fish is born and raised in a standard ph than they should be fine to live in that ph.
Also by creating that proper ph for a fish that is not used to it must be stressful to it.
I can understand a wild caught fish needing the same water conditions it was originally removed from.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Honestly, I think it's a mixtures of a number of things, not the least of which is common sense. :)

As you pointed out, it is going to be important to figure out the sensitivity of the fish, and weather or not it is wild or farm raised. Even some wild fish are not all that picky about their pH. Wild Discus are, IMO, on the extreme end of the scale for pH sensitivity, I wouldn't keep Wild Discus in water that was over 6.2-6.4, but I've seen captive bred Discus spawn in 7.6.

As for changing the pH, I'm not against it at all, but it is not something that should be attempted by the beginner, or even the advanced hobbyist that has little knowledge on the subject. Furthermore, I'd never recommend using chemicals to accomplish the target pH, rather use a buffering means such as peat for lowering and crushed coral for raising.

I think it is a matter that has so many variables that there is no single right answer to it.

[KingFisher]

I Alter my ph by natural means like peat and driftwood. I do not advocate using PH altering chemicals, as they can cause swings in the ph which can harm the fish. I would not keep any fish that required parameters that were so different than mine that I could not safely maintain the proper stable ph for them through natural means.

[hybridguy]

i have africans and all but 2 are tank bred, i have 2 wild cought a calvus and a alto. comp., they have no problems in 7.4-7.6 ph range. I alter it with crushed coral, i do not use a powder buffer of any sort, to much trouble and to expensive and it seems to fluctuate to much.

[domjd05]

Great answers people, I realize there's not really a definable answer at this point in time, but I'm looking for what you guys do in your tanks.

I should have pointed out that I'm referring the PH in FW tanks.. I understand SW is a different story...

Just to clarify, the discus I kept were captive bred, and I would not have kept a wild discus in that PH either.

But what's the cut-off?? Would you keep a captive discus in a ph of 8.0??

Would you keep fronts in something less than 7.6 or so, even if it was captive bred?

I also don't advocate using chemicals, unless you have a background in chemistry and understand the logarithmic changes that will occur.

[smaug]

I used the proper chems for years to acquire the soft low ph water that exists in my 58 gal planted tank.I did this because that is part of 'my' definition of the hobby which I feel is to keep the fish in as near correct water for them as possible.Through my experiance doing this I have found the fish attain greater size,better colors and longer life.I am also aware that they can be kept in most any water if that is your choice,but they will be kept better in there naturally suitable water.

[Northernguy]

My limit is whatever I can get my water too with natural buffers.
Driftwood,peat moss for lowering.Crushed coral,tafu stone,limestone for raising.

[Lab_Rat]

It depends on the situation.

Will I recommend chemicals to beginners to mess with pH? Hell no. Did I use epsom salts and baking soda, combined with crushed coral, to harden my water for malawi cichlids when I had soft water? Sure I did. But I knew the right amount to add with each water change and my maintenance schedule was regular.

Right now I've got driftwood in my non rift lake tanks to help lower pH since I have hard water. I also purchase my fish from LFS that keep them in the same city water I use. I'm not going to try keeping discus or GBR in my tap water, but I have to say my rummynose and bolivians are doing very well.

[sheamurai]

My pH is high out of the tap (8.0) and I don't mess with it - I did add a couple peices of driftwood in one tank to bring it down, but my tests have shown no discernable drop. I haven't lost anything due to pH except maybe a pair of GBR, which I don't try to keep now.

[domjd05]

I wasn't aware that driftwood would soften your water? PH and hardness/softness are.. somewhat.. linear, but they are different, just because one changes doesn't mean the other will as well... right?

[smaug]

Driftwood will not soften water it will lower ph ,it will normally only bring down ph .5 at the most.

[Lady Hobbs]

I agree Smaug. I have tons of driftwood in my tanks and it barely moved the pH on the tester, if at all.

My pH is 7.6 but is constant. I use nothing to change it.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Driftwood can have a profound effect on pH. How much it effects the pH is directly related to the length of time it has been submerged. The more tannic acid contained within the wood, the greater the effect it will have. The longer it is submerged, the less tannic acid will be released.

[smaug]

Driftwood can have a profound effect on pH. How much it effects the pH is directly related to the length of time it has been submerged. The more tannic acid contained within the wood, the greater the effect it will have. The longer it is submerged, the less tannic acid will be released.
i have used much driftwood in many tanks.It has never lowered ph by more then .5.My 58 at one point had 2 5 gal buckets of mopani and driftwood,still .5 was it.Our 55 has 1 5 gal bucket of mopani,still,just .5 lower.The biggest ph lowering agent I have ever used was oak or maple leaves,that took it almost a full point lower,that was in conjunction with wood.

[MonkeyPox]

Driftwood can have a profound effect on pH. How much it effects the pH is directly related to the length of time it has been submerged. The more tannic acid contained within the wood, the greater the effect it will have. The longer it is submerged, the less tannic acid will be released.

And what kind of driftwood you're using.

[Discus_Dude]

I installed a reverse osmosis filtration system to meet my needs. As for driftwood altering your PH....it depends on the kind of driftwood used.

[Mith]

I'm too new o all this to tell anyone what to do....but common sence tells me that if someone has the expertise to adjust their tank's PH anyway they can, then do it. I don't feel using chemicals to attain certain tank cryteria is a bad thing in and of itself. I do feel, however, that if someone does use chemicals that they use them correctly and dilligently. I probably wouldn't try it because I don't have enough experience. I use dechlor and meds, that's my limitations.

[Padams]

With most FW fish they seem to have a decent ph range of acceptability. I believe the over lap is great enough across the spectrum that maintaining a constant is indeed more important to "comfort" than absolute ph.

Due to my limited technical knowledge and more limited chemistry abilities, I will add both driftwood and the shells in the substrate to balance each other to maintain stability.

[deathtroll]

I use natural methods to try to adjust my ph if it don't change to what I want I don't get fish that I can't get at least close to the desired ph and keep it stable

[Mith]

Seems that the general concensus is that stable PH is more desirable than fluctuating PH by continually doing a balancing act always adjusting it.

[domjd05]

Awesome responses, I have had success lowering PH using driftwood, while I'm not ruling out that it could've been something else in the tank that would help it along, I did notice my PH lower almost a full point using driftwood.

I have used chemicals to try and alter the PH, in my first few tanks, and it totally wreaked havoc on my fish, lost most of the more sensitive fish, because of this once again I would say only use chems. if you have the proper knowledge.

Just throwing a fish in seems to have it's occasional successes, but as we've uncovered there seems to be extremes to which most people will not venture.. but I wonder...how long?

Thanks for the responses everyone!

[dragoonwoman]

I am very fortunate that my tap (well) water is exactly what my Amazon biotope requires, soft and slightly acid. All I use is Tap Water Conditioner, and I probably don't even need that.

The problems I was having with pH fluctuations was due to using CO2, and when I pulled that out my pH settled in the 6.6 - 6.8 range.

I think I could do reasonably well with any fish in my water the way it is, but if I was set on keeping something that required different parameters, I'd use natural methods to alter the pH rather than chemicals.

[Discus_Dude]

Interesting thread all...

There is certainly more than one way to do things, but I agree with Domjd05 and Mith et al. It's more important to maintain consistent PH than it is to try to get your PH to text book origin levels.

It is best to ask your breeder or LFS what PH level they keep their tanks? Most of the time our fish are tank bred and raised within a range close to 7.0 neutral. The answer and type of fish your purchasing will determine your preparation and or acclimation process once home. Most fish are adaptable to our normal range of PH, so you can adjust your fish to your natural PH level slowly, but there are exceptions of course such as should you want to breed your fish. This may require different water parameters all together.

If you need to alter your PH, you will need to make the decision as how you’re going to alter or stabilize your PH such as via chemicals, driftwood, almond leaves, peat or using a reverse osmosis filter etc. and weigh the costs and time involved. Whatever option you choose, in my opinion, it's best to use a water storage container to pretreat your water to achieve the desired end result rather than to try to adjust it in your tank.

Keep in mind, it's the KH/carbonate component in our water that buffers the stability of PH. If your KH out of the tap/water source is higher than 4-5ppm, you will have a more difficult time altering your PH requiring more chemicals. It can be costly over time.

If your KH is lower such as below 3-4 ppm or has a higher CO2 content from the tap, you can get PH fluctuations or worse, PH crash, which can kill your fish.

In my experience, it's best to adjust your fish to your out of the tap water after dechlorination when possible. It's easier to raise PH rather than to lower it and if you need to lower it, my recommendation is having a reverse osmosis system.

I personally have well water that is hard and high in CO2, so my PH increases from 7.6 to 8.2 over a 48hr window as the CO2 is gassed off. Given this, I have a household water softening system and an RO unit to soften my water. The RO unit provides filtered water to a separate kitchen sink faucet, my refrigerator ice and water dispenser, and has a separate drain in my basement laundry room that fills a 100G food grade barrel. My RO water still needs to be aged (aerated and heated to tank temp) and allowed time to gas off the CO2 to get my stabilized PH. I don't need to use a dechlor, but do like to use Prime water conditioner to bind possible metals and such. I add the Prime at my tank first given it can cause slimy build up in my storage container over time and I don't want to have to clean it that often to compensate.

These water filtration systems give me the flexibility I need to for breeding conditions, grow outs, and community tanks of all kinds not to mention excellent drinking water and ice to boot...:hmm3grin2orange:

[Sarkazmo]

I've used natural means to lower PH (Indian Almond Leaves.) I feel that you should try to get a fish's water at least close to it's natural habitat. A lot of people talk about 'tank raised' vs 'wild caught' fish and their ability to accept different PH ranges. I don't see a few decades of tank breeding wiping out eon up eon of evolution. They may be more adaptable than their wild caught relatives but they're not a different fish, just one raised in different conditions than nature.

Sark

[Discus_Dude]

I've used natural means to lower PH (Indian Almond Leaves.) I feel that you should try to get a fish's water at least close to it's natural habitat. A lot of people talk about 'tank raised' vs 'wild caught' fish and their ability to accept different PH ranges. I don't see a few decades of tank breeding wiping out eon up eon of evolution. They may be more adaptable than their wild caught relatives but they're not a different fish, just one raised in different conditions than nature.

Sark


You have a valid perspective Sark and there are those who would agree 100%. There are also a lot of other exisiting perspectives, but I tend to focus on the breed's ability to thrive. I don't think PH is personally something to get hung up on, nor will it prevent our fish from thriving in a variety of different ecosystems.

[Lab_Rat]

You have a valid perspective Sark and there are those who would agree 100%. There are also a lot of other exisiting perspectives, but I tend to focus on the breed's ability to thrive. I don't think PH is personally something to get hung up on, nor will it prevent our fish from thriving in a variety of different ecosystems.

It's not something to get hung up on entirely, but it is something to consider. Most people will agree a stable pH is much more important than a perfect pH. I do think rift lake cichlids need a high pH and hard water to thrive. Livebearers do not do well in soft water, ime. I would never attempt to keep GBR or discus in my hard water. If I wanted to keep them with the water supply I have now I would have to get ro/di. For many beginner fish, most can adapt to a wide range of pHs. I do believe many problems with livebearers though are from being in soft water. I also think it's more difficult to try keeping neons and cardinals in hard water. Many factors go into whether a fish is able to thrive, and I do think pH of the tank plays a role, but that stability is much more important than perfection in that area.

[Discus_Dude]

Agreed Lab_Rat! You probably said it better than I did.:ssmile:

[domjd05]

Another poll in the making, keeping hard water fish in soft water, vice versa, for some reason I think we'd have a whole lot more people in the "if it doesnt match what comes out of my tap I don't bother with it" catergory.

[Lab_Rat]

Another poll in the making, keeping hard water fish in soft water, vice versa, for some reason I think we'd have a whole lot more people in the "if it doesnt match what comes out of my tap I don't bother with it" catergory.

I don't think you're going to get a clear cut answer. What someone with experience does themselves vs what they recommend for new fishkeepers will likely be very different. There is no absolute right or wrong, it's multifactorial.

[domjd05]

I know, the point would be expressing what some of those multi-factors ARE, in an attempt to make sense of some of it... but oh well.

[Lab_Rat]

I know, the point would be expressing what some of those multi-factors ARE, in an attempt to make sense of some of it... but oh well.

I think the biggest factor is the experience of the fishkeeper and the sensitivity of the species.