This is getting ridiculous - Extremely Slow cycle

[rebbs]

Hello everyone,

Ok so I have had my 2 tanks set up for about a month. The 12 gallon has been set up and running fishless cycle since Oct 1, 2009 and the 5 gallon has been set up fishless cycle since roughly Sep 5, 2009 and I am getting absolutely no results ... literally no results. It has taken well over a month for the 5 gallon tank to go from 4 ppm ammonia to 2 ppm ammonia, and the 12 gallon tank about 3 weeks for the same ammonia drop. I have 0 ppm nitrItes, and 0ppm nitrAtes. I have had 2 donations during this time, one gravel, and the other was filter media ... both donations came from a well established healthy tank (running 2+ years, last disease out break in the tank was over a year ago) and still nothing! :tappingfoot: What is going on here? I realize that cycling is not an over night process, but I figured that after a month I sould see something (almost 2 months with the 5 gallon). This is everything that I have tried thus far:

1. gravel donation
2. mature media donation (1/3 of his sponge filter)
3. water changes (advised by a friend to maybe jump start my cycle - water
was treated prior to adding to tank with tetra aqua safe)
4. had friend run my bio media in conjunction with his filter for 2 weeks in his
established tank (note different tank then the gravel and filter media
donation - but established for 5 years last disease in this tank was over 3
years ago).
5. Verifed with the company and the MSDS sheet for the product that the
ammonia I used was infact pure ammonia. Ingredients listed ammonia and
water, shook bottle did not foam.

I am really at a loss here :shrug:, I literally do not know what else to do. The only thing, other then the ammonia, that was added to my tank was the water conditioner, Tetra Aqua Safe with bio extract. I do not have live plants, I am using basic aquarium gravel, aquarium decorations and silk plants all purchased from an aquarium store. My filters are - 12 gallon tank - marineland eclipse 12 system with bio wheel - 5 gallon tank - aqua clear 20 filter using the default bio filter media (ceramic peices) that came with the filter. Also I am showing no signs of algae - at least not that I can see.

Like I said I am really at a loss here, I have no idea what I should do next. I have thought of trying one of those "bacteria in a bottle" products but everything I have read about them - reviews etc - say they do not work and are a waste of money ... besides after a month should there not be at least some bacteria in my tank?

I am at my wits end, I am very close to saying forget the whole thing and throw these tanks away ... Any help/advise/tips would be welcome.

Thanks again

FYI water stats for tanks are (same for both tanks):

ammonia 2 ppm (started at 4ppm), nitrIte 0 ppm, nitrAte 0 ppm, pH 7.4 temp between 85 F and 86 F

Tap water reads: ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0, pH 7.2

Testing supplies used:

API - verified reagents are with in dates
Jungle test strips - verified with in dates
Salifert - verified with in dates
Also had water tested at 4 different aquarium shops, and had friends also test my water (not sure of the brand of test kit - but used liquid test not strips)
All sources give the same results.

[Sharon]

It seems that you are doing everything correctly....Are you using a heater?

[rebbs]

It seems that you are doing everything correctly....Are you using a heater?

Yep, a 50 watt heater in the 12 gallon and a 25 watt in the 5 gallon. Also have 3 thermometers for each tank...a stick on the outside, a regular (I am assuming an aclcohol based) aquarium with suction cup on the inside and a probe type digital thermometer also on the inside (same set up in each tank so 6 thermometers in total). All three thermometers (in each tank) are on the opposite wall from the heater, so I know it is not reading the temp right next to the heater. Both tanks stay put at 85 F - 86 F, once the 12 gallon did drop to 84.4 F and once the 5 gallon got to 86.2 F (per the digital thermometers). But the thermometers stay put in the tanks so I do have continous temperature readings.

They only thing I can think of is my water conditioner. That is the only variation between my tanks and my friends tanks. We all live less then a mile from eachother, therefore we are fairly certain that our water comes from the same source. Infact, my one friend just finished cycling his 29 gallon tank using fishless cycle method, and used my ammonia to do it, and cycled in 3 weeks. Like I said the only difference is the conditioner, they use a different brand. Have you ever heard of water conditioners stalling or preventing a cycle?

[fins_n_fur]

I wonder if it's not the SafeStart that's causing the issue. I thought that product was used to quickly cycle a tank with fish as opposed to fishless, but I've not used it before.

[rebbs]

I wonder if it's not the SafeStart that's causing the issue. I thought that product was used to quickly cycle a tank with fish as opposed to fishless, but I've not used it before.

I have never used SafeStart. They only product I have used in the tank is AquaSafe by Tetra Aqua, it is a water dechlorinator. However, I too thought maybe my dechlorniator was the culprit, BUT everything I have read/heard/been told say it is not the dechlorinator. So at this point I have no idea.

[Sharon]

The temp sounds good. You do need a dechorinator to cycle, as chlorine is harmful to the bacteria growth.
I have no idea why your cycle is so slow...I wouldn't have done the water changes. That would have definitely hindered the bacterial growth....

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Sharon, you were thinking the same thing I was. :) Depending on how large those water changes have been that could account for it.

The one that started in October actually is not too bad off, it's only 3 weeks into the cycle, and it can take upwards of 6-8 weeks. The September tank is definitely way behind. If you are doing a fishless cycle, then cut out the water changes for now, there is no reason for them.

[rebbs]

Sharon, you were thinking the same thing I was. :) Depending on how large those water changes have been that could account for it.

The one that started in October actually is not too bad off, it's only 3 weeks into the cycle, and it can take upwards of 6-8 weeks. The September tank is definitely way behind. If you are doing a fishless cycle, then cut out the water changes for now, there is no reason for them.

I know that it can take up to 8 weeks to fully cycle, but 99.9% of people at least see some activity in there tank after 2-3 weeks. I am seening ZERO activity ... literally no activity. I realize that I am new to all this, but I do understand the nitrogen cycle, and the concept that the bacteria will not form or at best will form very slowly if I am constantly removing thier food source, i.e ammonia. This was not the case, perhaps I was not clear enough in the origional posting, and I apologize for that, my mistake for not making that clear enough. But there was infact only one minor water change on the 5 gallon tank prior to a seeding, and the tank has been running for almost 5 weeks now with no activity following the water change/seeding from mature filter media (and was dosed with ammonia to bring the concentration back upto 4ppm), and of course no water changes on the 12 gallon tank. While there has been a drop in my ammonia in both tanks, there is absolutely no sign that it is being converted into nitrites and ultimately nitrates. I could see me not having a nitrite spike if I had live plants, but seing as I do not there is no reason for me not to be seeing nitrites. That is what is so odd about this, my ammonia has dropped with no by products ... it is like the ammonia just vanished. The 5 gallon was redosed with ammonia following the WC/seed and there has been no further WCs, so where is my bi-product. It just makes no sense. It seems as though I have 2 tanks that defy decades of bio-chemistry.:shrug:

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

The absence of nitrites can be easily explained, however the absence of nitrates cannot. As you say, without the live plants, the nitrates would have no place to go. Do you have any algae growth in the tank at all?

[rebbs]

The absence of nitrites can be easily explained, however the absence of nitrates cannot. As you say, without the live plants, the nitrates would have no place to go. Do you have any algae growth in the tank at all?

Sorry I meant to type nitrates in that post I just have nitrites on my brain, and no to the algae, at least none that I can see. There might be some in there but if there is it is hiding very well. I purposely left my silk plants out because I was expecting algae growth and didn't want my plants to get all gunked up with algae, so I only have my decorations and gravel in the tank currently. I know that artificial plants can provided additional surface area for bacteria growth, but that is a minor area, so I didn't think leaving them out would cause that big of a deal, and certainly not a stall this bad.

[Sharon]

The only thing I can think of right now is that maybe the test kit is at fault. Make sure you follow the test procedures very carefully, shake well when specified, and rinse the vials well between each use. You could try another test kit...maybe your friend's....I'm still thinking but it's a slow process for me, sometimes!!!:hmm3grin2orange:

[rebbs]

The only thing I can think of right now is that maybe the test kit is at fault. Make sure you follow the test procedures very carefully, shake well when specified, and rinse the vials well between each use. You could try another test kit...maybe your friend's....I'm still thinking but it's a slow process for me, sometimes!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
Already done, I use my test kit (API) twice a day (gone through more then one kit already) and between my 2 neighbours they are also tesing, well now twice a day each, with there kits - only because they are just as frustrated as I am. But prior to a couple of weeks ago, between the 2 of them it would get tested once a day in addition to my twice aday. So basically 2 tests per day using API, 1 per day using Salifert, and 1 test per day using Hagen. Also, at various times throughout this process, I have taken water samples to 4 different aquarium stores, to super chain stores and 2 mom and pop type shops - essentially all this testing coming up with the same results. Plus I also called API and went through over the phone with them exactly how to do each test, just in case I was doing it wrong ... the were actually surprisingly very helpful. But sadly tests were being completed correctly ... I would have felt better if I was doing them wrong, at least then I would have a reason.

[Lady Hobbs]

Those are small tanks and since you added seasoned media, it just could be that the tanks are cycled already but that too much ammonia has been added. After a month, I would be doing a large water change, add Tetra SafeStart and a few fish.

In a couple weeks if you still have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, add a "few" more fish and continue until your tank is stocked.

Do not change out your filter media (or clean your gravel) for some time or just rinse in tank water so you don't loose your bacteria.

[rebbs]

Those are small tanks and since you added seasoned media, it just could be that the tanks are cycled already but that too much ammonia has been added. After a month, I would be doing a large water change, add Tetra SafeStart and a few fish.

In a couple weeks if you still have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites, add a "few" more fish and continue until your tank is stocked.

Do not change out your filter media or clean your gravel for some time or just rinse in tank water so you don't loose your bacteria.
The problem is that my ammonia never dropped below 2 ppm, nor in all this time of twice a day testing (or more) has there been any nitrites or nitrates present in my tank ... I have my doubts that a cycle occured and there is just residual ammonia in the tank. If that were the case at some point over these last 2 months with twice a day testing I would have seen a drop in ammonia below 2 ppm and some sign of nitrites/nitrates. And I have been vigulant about it. I work from home so I know I have been doing twice a day testing ... not including what my neighbours have done over and above my tests. I have kept a log, and I can post it if you want I have everything from the day the tanks were set up ... well almost everything I am missing the first few days of the 5 gallon tank ... but everything else. I just never posted them because that is a lot of results to post. But rest assured I have NEVER seen ANY nitrites or nitrates in my tank and I have NEVER had any live plants so lack of nitrates in a cycled tank ... from my understanding impossible with no live plants.

[Sharon]

Then I'm totally clueless as to what's going on here! It sounds like you have a really good understanding of the process, and I really can't figure out why you're not getting the predicted results. I notice you're PH is 7.4 so that is not the culprit either...maybe someone else can give an explanation. :sconfused: :ssmile:

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Just an off the wall thought here, have you ever had your water tested for copper?

[rebbs]

Just an off the wall thought here, have you ever had your water tested for copper?
Ironically, yes, my entire city's water was tested a few weeks back now, actually it was right at the end of September, just a few days before I set up the 12 gallon tank. It was tested by an independant water testing company, or so we were told ... long story short it was something to do with government requireing the city to have its water tested. In addtion to copper I believe it was also tested for iron, lead, flouride, calcium, phosporus, and a few other things I can't remember all the tests they did. The report was released a few days ago and although they did not give exact numbers, they did say the water tested "normal". I suppose I can do some digging and see what the actual numbers were. I have never tested my actual aquarium water for copper as I thought that was a test for salt water aquariums, at least the tests I have seen for copper all say salt water on them. Is there a freshwater test for copper out there?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Yes, Sera makes a FW Cu test. Safe for drinking water doesn't = safe for aquariums.

[rebbs]

Well I think I at last found the problem and a potential solution. I took my nieces to the local public aquarium (not a large one, small private owned) and spoke to one of the aquarium "keepers" that work there. When I told him the story of my tanks that just won’t cycle, he actually laughed; he said that they get at least 1 phone call a day saying the same thing. Basically this is what he said the water in our area has 2 main problems that most people do not know about. They are:

1. Our fresh water contains a slightly high salt content. Not significantly high, he said it would be equal to adding approximately 1/2 tsp of aquarium salt per gallon.

2. Our water company adds additional fluoride to our water ... great for people, not harmful to the fish (so he said) but can stall and or prevent cycling.

So solutions - I ran through everything I did thus far with him and his response was that I did not use enough mature media to combat the problems with the water. He said I needed at least twice the amount of mature media ... but more would be better. So tomorrow, Sunday, the aquarium is closed for their weekly cleaning of their tanks. He generously offered to set me up. He said come back tomorrow afternoon and he will have bags of substrate for me, he will also squeeze/wash out all their filters into some of their aquarium water for me (so that is at least 20-30 filter washings). He also said that since it is month end he will be changing out one complete filter sponge from the one of the 6 extremely large canister filters from the very large main freshwater aquarium and he will give me the entire sponge. I saw the sponges they use for those large canister filters ... it is huge at least 4-5x larger than the pieces of mature filter sponge I had used before. Here are the steps he told me to take:

1 - Do a partial water change in the tank exchanging my water for the aquarium water (with the washings) he will provide to me.
2 - Add the substrate he will provide for me - he said he will put the substrate into fine mesh bags that way since it won't match my current substrate I can easily remove it once the tank is cycled.
3 - Add the filter sponge directly to my tank, clipping it to the side or weighing it down with the substrate bags.

He told me he would provide me with enough mature media/filter washing water to cycle both my tanks. He also said that if my tanks are not cycled within the week to let him know, but he is positive that my tanks should be fully cycled within the week.

So I will let you all know the results of this new plan ... I really hope it works. But at least I seem to have an answer now.

Oh and FYI to the copper question - I confirmed with him that there is no copper in our water - or worst case senerio very little and would not be detectable on the testing kits.

[Sharon]

I'm so glad that you may have it sorted...keep us posted!:ssmile:

[CincyGida]

Rebbs - any update? I have a new tank that seems to have stalled, too. Thanks!

[CincyGida]

Does an activated carbon filter hinder the cycling process? It's been five years since I cycled a tank and that was a saltwater setup - not sure if that matters anyway.

[rich311k]

No carbon does not remove ammonia or niotrite from the water so it would have no effect. As a matter of fact AC is loaded with surface area and is a good place for bacteria to grow.

[Taurus]

That's right, when AC is 3 or 4 weeks old, it becomes biomedia.

[hursab]

How is your tank looking?