Natural pH Decreaser/Buffer

[A340]

Hey everyone and Happy Easter!

I'm looking at different ways to decrease my pH values (and keep it stable) with out adding any chemicals or additives.

Right now, straight out of the tap and after adding water conditioner, I have a pH value of 7.6 and would like to bring it down a few notches for my tetras and danios.

Being used to keeping Malawi Cichlids, I'm used to playing around with alkaline water and raising pH (adding crushed coral, etc.) but now I'm looking at the opposite end of the spectrum.

I know that peat will soften the water, but is not very stable. Is this true? What about adding a few pieces of driftwood?

Any suggestions are welcomed

Patrick :22:

[Genirous]

Hi Patrick,
I use peat in both my tanks and I manage to have a ph around 7...
I replace it every month to give me as much as I can get and use it without active carbon...
Driftwood will not do you much and surely not for long time...
The only difference is the tanis in the tank...
Maybe the best (and more expensive) way is to buy yourself a reverse osmosis system...
More experienced guys can tell you more!

Friendly, George

[Drumachine09]

Crushed coral will raise your PH, peat will lower your PH, and adding salt will also raise your PH.

[Chrona]

Unless you keep rummynose tetras, I would advise against messing with the pH. Every time you do a water change, your pH will shoot back up and drop down as the peat softens it. You can use an acid buffer like Seachem Acid Buffer, but that takes more work, and I'm fairly certain your fish have adapted to local water at the LFS already (Thus far, I have never heard of a LFS using RO water for tetras/danios) Unless you have some ludricriously high pH coming from the tap, just leave it as it is. Fish appreciate a stable pH far more than an "ideal" one.

[Lady Hobbs]

Crushed coral will raise your PH, peat will lower your PH, and adding salt will also raise your PH.

You were doing great right up until you got to the salt part. Salt will not raise the pH or change it in any way.

Aquarium Salt can be used with tropical fish, goldfish and koi. Aquarium Salt will not change pH. Aquarium Salt should not be used as a substitute for marine aquarium salt.

[Lady Hobbs]

Hey everyone and Happy Easter!

I'm looking at different ways to decrease my pH values (and keep it stable) with out adding any chemicals or additives.

Right now, straight out of the tap and after adding water conditioner, I have a pH value of 7.6 and would like to bring it down a few notches for my tetras and danios.

Being used to keeping Malawi Cichlids, I'm used to playing around with alkaline water and raising pH (adding crushed coral, etc.) but now I'm looking at the opposite end of the spectrum.

I know that peat will soften the water, but is not very stable. Is this true? What about adding a few pieces of driftwood?

Any suggestions are welcomed

Patrick :22:

Same with me and same pH. I also use driftwood and it doesn't do dittily. It may when it's first new but not soon after. About the time the tannis stop showing up.

I will be trying the peat pellets myself. And if you have a planted tank, the plants like the peat, as well. There is also water softening pillows that are said to work well. You can get peat by pellets of just buy what's called Black Forest that you add by the capful depending on how many gallons you have. It also contains peat.

[Chrona]

You were doing great right up until you got to the salt part. Salt will not raise the pH or change it in any way.

Ouch, that was a real zinger.

[Drumachine09]

You were doing great right up until you got to the salt part. Salt will not raise the pH or change it in any way.

I was told adding aquarium salt to a cichlid tank would raise the PH.

[sergo]

chemical or co2 (for plants) will lower your ph. my tap ph is over 8 so i use non buffered ro water and buffer it myself to 7-7.2. i take regular samples but i don't have to adjust or mess with it at all. although i've been slowly working on bringing it down for about a month and a half now so i don't risk any fish. although that does bring a question to mind that i will ask in the technical section in a few.

[sergo]

also hobbs i hate to be the one that tells you this but i now believe that the pillows are not as good as i thought. it worked great the first two times i used it but this last time it only lowered my gh by only 1 point. i was very disappointed! what's funny is that i changed the solution after it was used so it was always new. so now i don't know...

[Chrona]

I was told adding aquarium salt to a cichlid tank would raise the PH.

You are right. The buffering salts are not the NaCl we are used to when we hear salt. A salt is just cations and anions that form together to form a nuetral substance. In the case of cichlid salts, the chemicals are usually just baking soda (sodium bicarbonate - raises kH), Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate - raises hardness) and potassium chloride or plain NaCl to raise general hardness.

[Drumachine09]

You are right. The buffering salts are not the NaCl we are used to when we hear salt. A salt is just cations and anions that form together to form a nuetral substance. In the case of cichlid salts, the chemicals are usually just baking soda (sodium bicarbonate - raises kH), Epsom salt (magnesium sulfate - raises hardness) and potassium chloride or plain NaCl to raise general hardness.


Oh ok. That makes me feel better. Im right....just stupid! lol

[A340]

Thanks for all the great (and quick :thumb: ) replies everyone.

While I do agree that messing around with your water parameters is not always the best thing to do, fish do like a stable enviorment rather then the perfect one, I would like to bring the pH down a notch.

I bought some filter media bags and some peat granulates, so I'm gonna give that a try to see and what happens.

Like I said in my opening post, I'm used to keeping Malawi Cichlids with a high pH, but now I've been wanting to get into Discus, so before I go out and buy any pricey Discus, I'd like to make sure I know what I'm doing. So, I'm using my current 29g as a bit of a trial run.

In regards to a RO system, right now I just don't have the money to get one set up, but eventually, once I get into sw tanks, I don't think I'll be able to get away with out having one.

Also, very few pet stores have ideal water conditions for their fish anyway, quite a few stores keep all kinds of fish togeter, such as Malawi's with Angelfish, etc. Even though the fish one buys there are used to those water conditions, I can't imagine it being healthy for them in the long run.

Now, I'm running an AC110 filter, so I have to figure out where to put this stuff. Right now the media set up is -foam -carbon -ceramic rings. I would think that the best place would be in between the carbon and ceramic rings.

Any other suggestions?

Patrick :22:

[sergo]

wow you are really going to the other end of the spectrum here, aren't you?

[Chrona]

Thanks for all the great (and quick :thumb: ) replies everyone.

While I do agree that messing around with your water parameters is not always the best thing to do, fish do like a stable enviorment rather then the perfect one, I would like to bring the pH down a notch.

I bought some filter media bags and some peat granulates, so I'm gonna give that a try to see and what happens.

Like I said in my opening post, I'm used to keeping Malawi Cichlids with a high pH, but now I've been wanting to get into Discus, so before I go out and buy any pricey Discus, I'd like to make sure I know what I'm doing. So, I'm using my current 29g as a bit of a trial run.

In regards to a RO system, right now I just don't have the money to get one set up, but eventually, once I get into sw tanks, I don't think I'll be able to get away with out having one.

Also, very few pet stores have ideal water conditions for their fish anyway, quite a few stores keep all kinds of fish togeter, such as Malawi's with Angelfish, etc. Even though the fish one buys there are used to those water conditions, I can't imagine it being healthy for them in the long run.

Now, I'm running an AC110 filter, so I have to figure out where to put this stuff. Right now the media set up is -foam -carbon -ceramic rings. I would think that the best place would be in between the carbon and ceramic rings.

Any other suggestions?

Patrick :22:

I would recommend an RO unit if you are getting into discus. They won't like the constant changes in total dissolved solids whenever you do a water change (which will be VERY frequent lol) Peat just won't cut it (though you can use it along with RO water + added buffers)

I'd also recommend getting adult discus, even if they are much more expensive, since juvies need veeery clean water, several feedings a day, and water changes several times a week or their growth will be stunted. Most people prefer to raise discus in bare bottom tanks, because of the maintenance issue.

[Lady Hobbs]

also hobbs i hate to be the one that tells you this but i now believe that the pillows are not as good as i thought. it worked great the first two times i used it but this last time it only lowered my gh by only 1 point. i was very disappointed! what's funny is that i changed the solution after it was used so it was always new. so now i don't know...

I thought it was too good to be true. I backed off when I checked the price of them. $6 each and it takes several for a large tank.

[Lady Hobbs]

Ouch, that was a real zinger.

Zinger? That was not a zinger. Just letting my friend Drumachine know that aquarium salt doesn't change the pH. I don't know about salt for cichlids cause this guy is talking about salt in a discus tank.

[Drumachine09]

Zinger? That was not a zinger. Just letting my friend Drumachine know that aquarium salt doesn't change the pH. I don't know about salt for cichlids cause this guy is talking about salt in a discus tank.

thanks for letting me down easy.lol

[sergo]

I thought it was too good to be true. I backed off when I checked the price of them. $6 each and it takes several for a large tank.actually i was using only one and the fist two times it did cut my gh in half. i don't know what happened this time, but it has been a while since i used it. maybe the fact that i have been dosing more with flourish, i don't know but i'll try it one more time with a fresh batch of solution just before i use it instead of just letting it sit for a while.

[Chrona]

I thought it was too good to be true. I backed off when I checked the price of them. $6 each and it takes several for a large tank.

I warned you! lol. Been down that road. Not worth it imo.

[Lady Hobbs]

thanks for letting me down easy.lol

I got all excited because it's not often I'm right about anything but this one topic I did check on for ages myself one night. It "seems" like it would but it doesn't.

:14: Don't hurt me honey.

[Drumachine09]

:14: Don't hurt me honey.


HA! lol. Its ok, as long as you have your spoon in hand, you are safe.

[A340]

Zinger? That was not a zinger. Just letting my friend Drumachine know that aquarium salt doesn't change the pH. I don't know about salt for cichlids cause this guy is talking about salt in a discus tank.

Who's putting salts in discus tanks?

Chrona, thanks for the advice in regards to discus, I know that they are very sensitive fish. An RO system is out of the question (unfortunatly) at least until the fall sometime. But I will be looking into them, especially once I start getting into sw tanks.

George, what was your pH before you added the peat?

Sergo, I have a CO2 system as well (if you want to call the Nutrafin CO2 a "system".....lol), but it doesn't seem to be doing anything with the pH.

I'll do another pH dip tomorrow and keep everyone updated to see what happens.

Patrick :22:

[Lady Hobbs]

No one was talking about salt for discus. We all got turned around there in our discussion regarding if salt raises the pH. I just slammed the keyboard down on my fingers because I did a typo there. :)

[A340]

No one was talking about salt for discus. We all got turned around there in our discussion regarding if salt raises the pH. I just slammed the keyboard down on my fingers because I did a typo there. :)
Way to go, confuse me! You should know, boys are very easily confused .... :ezpi_wink1:

Patrick :22:

[A340]

So, my pH has dropped from 7.6 to 7.2 in just under 24 hours of adding the peat granulates. It does seem a quite a sudden drop, but all the fish are present and accounted for, infact, they seem a little more active then they have in the last few days.

However, now after adding the peat, the water is somewhat murky. A natural side effect I know. So, how do we go about solving this? I think I have to study my filter a little more and see if I can put the peat in a more effective spot.

Any suggestions?

Patrick :22:

[Chrona]

So, my pH has dropped from 7.6 to 7.2 in just under 24 hours of adding the peat granulates. It does seem a quite a sudden drop, but all the fish are present and accounted for, infact, they seem a little more active then they have in the last few days.

However, now after adding the peat, the water is somewhat murky. A natural side effect I know. So, how do we go about solving this? I think I have to study my filter a little more and see if I can put the peat in a more effective spot.

Any suggestions?

Patrick :22:

Activated carbon will remove tannins

[A340]

Activated carbon will remove tannins
I was wondering about that. The way I have it set up now, is that I have the peat on top of the carbon. I was going to try a few set ups such as putting the peat before the carbon, however will this reduce the effect of the peat?

Patrick :22:

[sergo]

does carbon affect kh or just gh? i can't remember.

[Chrona]

Carbon doesn't affect kH or gH. It doesn't matter where your put the carbon or peat as long as both of them are after the mechanical filtration.

[sergo]

huh?i thought carbon stripped minerals and such out of the water hense the reason you don't use it in planted tanks.

[Chrona]

They strip trace metals like boron, and other metals like iron. kH is carbonates, which is doesn't touch. gH is general hardness, or calcium/magnesium content, which technically are metals as well, but I know that carbon doesn't soften water, so I guess they do not bond to the carbon (well)

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

EDIT: Hm, wait nothing on calcium/magnesium there....1 sec lol

[sergo]

i would probably help if i quit skim reading everything.
it was the trace elements that get filtered out like you said.

[cocoa_pleco]

yup. carbon absorbs some minerals that plants like. some plants are affected, and some arent