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hungryhound
04-06-2007, 02:41 AM
Alright Guys (and Gals).....I'm getting tired of posting to this particular part of the forum.....we're back once again with Gourami issues. Here's the story...

One Gourami was diagnosed with a mouth fungus on Sunday night. On Monday afternoon we picked up API Fungus cure (it's a green powder) and dosed per the instructions (first dosage).

Wednesday the second and final dose of the medication was added.

On Thursday we noted the fish were fairly lethargic, but decided it was probably a result of the medications. Well, today the lethargy continued and we had to euthanasize a zebrafish that was having trouble breath, was pale and in general not looking good (edit: we just found a dead zebrafish). With this we decided we HAD to do a parameters check (we'd been holding off as the meds made the tank water green and as all the test kits use colorimetry they can be difficult to read). After the check this is what we had:

ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 40ppm

We obviously did an immediate water change, 50% (the concern is that the meds should have remained in the water until Friday....). As this is the first time we've ever seen this kind of spike in nitrates (yes the tank is cycled and planted) within a week, we're wondering if the green color of the meds prevented the plants from carrying out photosynthesis as efficiently.

This then brings us to a potentially more serious problem. The original Gourami appears to have lost a good part of his lip (the pictures are below from various angels). In addition it appears that another Gourami now has the fungus. Plus the third Gourami has something around his nostrils (apparently when it rains it pours!). All the other fish in the tank appear to be fine.

What in the world do we do with these Gouramis? Unfortunately we don't have a hospital tank that we can transfer them to, and we really don't want to try another round with the anti-fungus after these problems.

Please help, we're rather frantic at this point.

blue fin
04-06-2007, 02:46 AM
I would stronly recommend a hospital tank, if you don't have the money for another tank get an inexpensive heater, air pump and filter and use a large tupperware or storage bin as the tank, start it cycling and put the sick fish in the other " tank " until well, the meds will continue to stress your other fish.

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 02:48 AM
I would stronly recommend a hospital tank, if you don't have the money for another tank get an inexpensive heater, air pump and filter and use a large tupperware or storage bin as the tank, start it cycling and put the sick fish in the other " tank " until well, the meds will continue to stress your other fish.

It's not so much a money issue, but a space issue...this is defiantly something we're going to have to keep in mind...

As for the other fish, no one really seems stressed ....I don't know, we're about at our witts end here....

Chrona
04-06-2007, 02:51 AM
The lip will grow back. I had a similar problem on a goldfish a long time ago. You just need to get rid of the fungus. I believe I used Maracyn (or maybe Maracyn two? back then), but Pimafix + Melafix should be able to do a better job, as bacteria/fungus will not have a resistance against them and they are a good wide-spectrium cure. The pimafix will handle the fungus while the melafix helps speed up regrowth and prevent secondary bacterial infections. Most stores should have this (even my local Walmart, apparently)

Are you still running CO2? What's the pH? Shut it off for now and aerate the tank with an air pump (if you have one, if not, that's fine. Don't aerate and shut the CO2 off at the same time, let the CO2 dissipate out first for a few hours, then aerate.) You can cut back to just one 96 bulb for now too, so you won't have any issues with algae.

EDIT: If you've lost two zebra danios, then there's something seriously wrong with the tank. Culprits could be yeast solution getting into the tank, the fungus medications and anything else you did to the tank recently. Any clues?

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 02:55 AM
The lip will grow back. I had a similar problem on a goldfish a long time ago. You just need to get rid of the fungus. I believe I used Maracyn (or maybe Maracyn two? back then), but Pimafix + Melafix should be able to do a better job, as bacteria/fungus will not have a resistance against them and they are a good wide-spectrium cure. The pimafix will handle the fungus while the melafix helps speed up regrowth and prevent secondary bacterial infections. Most stores should have this (even my local Walmart, apparently)

Are you still running CO2? What's the pH? Shut it off for now and aerate the tank with an air pump (if you have one) You can cut back to just one 96 bulb for now too, so you won't have any issues with algae.

The CO2 is still running, so we'll get that shut off. The pH is 7.2 (sorry for got to post it earlier). We'll also cut back on the light.

So you think pimafix and melafix will help...right now we're thinking about tryingt o rearrange a little....

Move the Betta out of the 5g to a bucket or bowl...move the 3 Gouramis into the 5g (I know this is small for them....but it would isolate them) and treat the 5g with the meds you suggested...


Any thoughts?

blue fin
04-06-2007, 02:58 AM
Sounds like the best solution... those meds get expensive quick, good luck with them

Chrona
04-06-2007, 02:59 AM
The CO2 is still running, so we'll get that shut off. The pH is 7.2 (sorry for got to post it earlier). We'll also cut back on the light.

So you think pimafix and melafix will help...right now we're thinking about tryingt o rearrange a little....

Move the Betta out of the 5g to a bucket or bowl...move the 3 Gouramis into the 5g (I know this is small for them....but it would isolate them) and treat the 5g with the meds you suggested...


Any thoughts?

I think at this point, the other fish in the tank would benefit from a Melafix + Pimafix treatment as well, if only to prevent possible infections. The two are not harsh chemicals (the Melafix is actually rather soothing, apparently) so it will not harm your fish. Furthermore, since it'll be less stress on the fish, and 3 male dwarf gouramis in such a small space may start fighting. If you can't get the meds for a while, then a quarantine container is good (you can even use clean tupperware floated in your tank)

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:01 AM
I think at this point, the other fish in the tank would benefit from a Melafix + Pimafix treatment as well, if only to prevent possible infections. The two are not harsh chemicals (the Melafix is actually rather soothing, apparently) so it will not harm your fish. Furthermore, since it'll be less stress on the fish, and 3 male dwarf gouramis in such a small space may start fighting. If you can't get the meds for a while, then a quarantine container is good (you can even use clean tupperware floated in your tank)

Okay, another question...is their a greater risk of this spreading to the other fish if we leave the Gourami's in the main tank. I defiantly understand what you're saying about aggression (as they each have their own space in the 46g), the big concern at this point is also the health of the other fish.

Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

blue fin
04-06-2007, 03:04 AM
I have had no issue with fungus spreading, it is usually caused by stress or weakness that already exists from all that I have read.

Chrona
04-06-2007, 03:06 AM
Okay, another question...is their a greater risk of this spreading to the other fish if we leave the Gourami's in the main tank. I defiantly understand what you're saying about aggression (as they each have their own space in the 46g), the big concern at this point is also the health of the other fish.

Thanks guys for all the suggestions.

If you can get the Pimafix + Melafix by...say...tomorrow and start treatment, then I'd leave them in the same tank. Even if the other fish did catch some fungus, it'd be in a very early stage and easily treatable. I am VERY surprised that the zebra danios are dying and nothing else though.

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:09 AM
If you can get the Pimafix + Melafix by...say...tomorrow and start treatment, then I'd leave them in the same tank. Even if the other fish did catch some fungus, it'd be in a very early stage and easily treatable. I am VERY surprised that the zebra danios are dying and nothing else though.

Okay thanks, I think we're going to make a run to Wallyworld and see what we can find.

The zebrafish are a mystery to us....I mean we wanted to get rid of them, but not this way!

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:10 AM
I have had no issue with fungus spreading, it is usually caused by stress or weakness that already exists from all that I have read.

Thanks so much Blue fin, between you and Chrona with your quick posts, hopefully we can get this all under control!

Chrona
04-06-2007, 03:17 AM
Oh and do a large water change and/or add carbon to remove the green med you have. Best to reduce variables at this time. Not sure exactly what caused the lethargy/illness, but the powder may have had something to do with it. Wouldn't be the first time chemical medication killed fish...

blue fin
04-06-2007, 03:26 AM
Oh and do a large water change and/or add carbon to remove the green med you have. Best to reduce variables at this time. Not sure exactly what caused the lethargy/illness, but the powder may have had something to do with it. Wouldn't be the first time chemical medication killed fish...

thumbs2: thumbs2: Good suggestions.. best of luck, sickness is frustrating, the last fish I had sick I separated and hit him with Pimafix and Melafix for 3 weeks, the fungus started getting better but he wouldn't eat and finally succumb to it. I blame myself for not catching it fast enough, hope you have better luck. I had to separate the fish due to sheer volume, medicating a 75 gal tank for 3 weeks would have broken the bank!

Chrona
04-06-2007, 03:30 AM
thumbs2: thumbs2: Good suggestions.. best of luck, sickness is frustrating, the last fish I had sick I separated and hit him with Pimafix and Melafix for 3 weeks, the fungus started getting better but he wouldn't eat and finally succumb to it. I blame myself for not catching it fast enough, hope you have better luck. I had to separate the fish due to sheer volume, medicating a 75 gal tank for 3 weeks would have broken the bank!

Go to Walmart and buy a large bottle of each...lol. It's actually like 1/3 the cost compared to getting it from a LFS for me.

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:30 AM
Oh and do a large water change and/or add carbon to remove the green med you have. Best to reduce variables at this time. Not sure exactly what caused the lethargy/illness, but the powder may have had something to do with it. Wouldn't be the first time chemical medication killed fish...

We did a 50% water change tonight to remove the API fungal meds (now the water is only pea green instead of kelley green). We'll do a second large water change tomorrow. The carbon filters were added after the water change, but will have to be removed again once my husband gets home with the meds.

Again, thanks for all your help...this is deifnatly not something you plan for...and it's not easy as the fish have becoem our babies.

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:32 AM
thumbs2: thumbs2: Good suggestions.. best of luck, sickness is frustrating, the last fish I had sick I separated and hit him with Pimafix and Melafix for 3 weeks, the fungus started getting better but he wouldn't eat and finally succumb to it. I blame myself for not catching it fast enough, hope you have better luck. I had to separate the fish due to sheer volume, medicating a 75 gal tank for 3 weeks would have broken the bank!

You make a really good point there...we'll have to look at it and see how treatment goes (thankfully they seem to be eating...or at least picking at food). It might be that we have to seperate just to be cost effective.

Again, thanks for all your help....we're hoping that we don't have any more casualties

blue fin
04-06-2007, 03:34 AM
You make a really good point there...we'll have to look at it and see how treatment goes (thankfully they seem to be eating...or at least picking at food). It might be that we have to seperate just to be cost effective.

Again, thanks for all your help....we're hoping that we don't have any more casualties

I'll cross my fins for ya!

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:34 AM
I'll cross my fins for ya!

Thanks! We'll keep you posted!

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 03:42 AM
Alright...round 2 (can you have another round if it's still the same night?!?!?).

Anyways, just went up to check on the fish and I'm not so sure about one of them (I think this is the guy we just noticed fungus on). he's hanging out at the top, but his body is curved (it's kind of like he's rolling up on himself), plus it looks like his fins are pretty rough (maybe half the size o f the other two).

blue fin
04-06-2007, 03:46 AM
Alright...round 2 (can you have another round if it's still the same night?!?!?).

Anyways, just went up to check on the fish and I'm not so sure about one of them (I think this is the guy we just noticed fungus on). he's hanging out at the top, but his body is curved (it's kind of like he's rolling up on himself), plus it looks like his fins are pretty rough (maybe half the size o f the other two).
Don't condemn him too quickly, keep an eye on him though. do you use salt in your tank? Maybe a nice vacation in a salted water tank??? not too much though, Chrona any suggestions on salt concentration?

Chrona
04-06-2007, 03:50 AM
Normally it's 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons, but you have loaches (and the oto will probably be affected as well), so salt is a nono.

blue fin
04-06-2007, 03:55 AM
Normally it's 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons, but you have loaches (and the oto will probably be affected as well), so salt is a nono.
I was referring to a " hospital " tank or tupperware in the tank to have separate water supply, just for the fish that seem to be sick.

Chrona
04-06-2007, 03:58 AM
I was referring to a " hospital " tank or tupperware in the tank to have separate water supply, just for the fish that seem to be sick.

Oh, my mistake. Yes, 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons, so 1/2 tablespoon for that 5g tank.

cocoa_pleco
04-06-2007, 04:00 AM
Oh, my mistake. Yes, 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons, so 1/2 tablespoon for that 5g tank.


my AP salt says 1 tablespoon for 5g

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 04:02 AM
Husband just got back from Wallyworld with Melafix (they didn't have any Primafix...we'll work on that later).

Saw the salt suggestion, but as Chrona said we have loaches and oto cats...Chrona, any comments on isolation and salt?

We're going to go a head and dose with the Melafix tonight and see how eveyrone is doing in the morning...

Chrona
04-06-2007, 04:11 AM
Husband just got back from Wallyworld with Melafix (they didn't have any Primafix...we'll work on that later).

Saw the salt suggestion, but as Chrona said we have loaches and oto cats...Chrona, any comments on isolation and salt?

We're going to go a head and dose with the Melafix tonight and see how eveyrone is doing in the morning...

Well, it's a mixup. You can transfer the fish to the 5g, and add salt, or skip salt to keep the gouramis where they are. I'm still not all that convinced about the use of salt beyond treating external parasites and nitrite poisoning, but I do believe it helps fish regulate their osmosis when weakened. I don't have any concrete figures about which option is better, so if no one has experience with this particular situation, then I'd say its your choice.

I would definitely keep looking around for some Pimafix too. The two working together produce some great results, as blue_fin said.

blue fin
04-06-2007, 04:13 AM
Well, it's a mixup. You can transfer the fish to the 5g, and add salt, or skip salt to keep the gouramis where they are. I'm still not all that convinced about the use of salt beyond treating external parasites and nitrite poisoning, but I do believe it helps fish regulate their osmosis when weakened. I don't have any concrete figures about which option is better, so if no one has experience with this particular situation, then I'd say its your choice.

I would definitely keep looking around for some Pimafix too. The two working together produce some great results, as blue_fin said.
Gee, thanks for the plug..:22:

Chrona
04-06-2007, 04:15 AM
Gee, thanks for the plug..:22:

Anytime, you owe me a beer though..... :thumb:

blue fin
04-06-2007, 04:18 AM
Anytime, you owe me a beer though..... :thumb:
You drive to Jersey, I'll buy you a beer. But I aint drivin you all the way back home!

cocoa_pleco
04-06-2007, 04:20 AM
give him a bicycle for the way back. That'd be funny. Chrona riding from new jersey drunk on a old bicycle, then the cops come. :ezpi_wink1:

blue fin
04-06-2007, 04:22 AM
give him a bicycle for the way back. That'd be funny. Chrona riding from new jersey drunk on a old bicycle, then the cops come. :ezpi_wink1:
I'll be sure to take pics and post 'em

blue fin
04-06-2007, 04:25 AM
We did a 50% water change tonight to remove the API fungal meds (now the water is only pea green instead of kelley green). We'll do a second large water change tomorrow. The carbon filters were added after the water change, but will have to be removed again once my husband gets home with the meds.

Again, thanks for all your help...this is deifnatly not something you plan for...and it's not easy as the fish have becoem our babies.

Have you checked your water balance since the water change?? Ph test?

cocoa_pleco
04-06-2007, 04:40 AM
I'll be sure to take pics and post 'em


by may, he'll be on video, probably on cops. That'd be HILARIOUS:ezpi_wink1:

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 12:50 PM
Have you checked your water balance since the water change?? Ph test?

No we didn't do that (good idea). We're going to do another water change today so we'll test parameters again.


I would definitely keep looking around for some Pimafix too. The two working together produce some great results, as blue_fin said.

Definatly going to find some Pimafix. The problem was that Wallyworld was the nly thing open at that hour and they were out. We have a few other places we can check today:)

THanks guys for all your help.

The death toll continues to rise, here's where we are as of this morning:
1. Last Sat: 1 oto cat
2.Thursday: 1 dead zebrafish and 1 euthaniized zebrafish
3.Friday am: 1 SAE, 1 Gourami appears to be on his death bed (barely able to swim, sitting on the bottom with shallow breathing).

We still have:
1. 2 zebrafish
2. 4 oto cats (can only count 3 right now)
3. 1 SAE
4. 2.5 Gouramis (the half is the deathbed Gourami)
5. 4 Yoyyo loaches (can only find 3 at the moment)
6. 3Rainbow fish

The Melafix was added last night and we'll add another dosage after the water change.

Chrona
04-06-2007, 02:16 PM
Don't give up hope yet! You can often pull fish back from the brink!

hungryhound
04-06-2007, 04:20 PM
Another day brings even more questions. I am really starting to wonder why my SAE, zebra fish died.

I realized this morning that,Like an idiot, I used the saltwater nitrate card to read my freshwater nitrate reading. Which means that the reading last night was only 20 and not 40. While high it is not in the death range.

Today my nitrates are at 10 ppm. everything else is the same.

I don't know why it would be, but I did not have any of the problems with the SAE, and zebra until I added the anti fungal medication. It was the only variable that drastically changed in the last couple days that I can pinpoint the problem on. It makes no sense to me, as I would not expect it to have any adverse side effects.

I am still going to do a water change today probably 30 to 40 and then Continue to treat with melafix and primafix. (crosses fingers and hopes that medicine will work, because while I do cpr research I am not sure mouth to gill will be effective in reviving my little fishes). Sorry, I have to use humor to color the loss.

Let me know if I came to a faulty conclusin and if there is any thing else that I need to do. Once again thanks for your help as you guys are truely a life saver.

Chrona
04-06-2007, 04:24 PM
Good luck! I think it was the fungal meds as well. Just a hunch though

hungryhound
04-07-2007, 02:03 AM
Well, we lost the Gourami today...this was the one that appeared healthy. Everyone else seems to be okay...though only really the rainbow fish ate...

We're in the midst of a water change and will add more Melafix and Pimafix.

Thanks for all the help!

Chrona
04-07-2007, 03:29 AM
Well, we lost the Gourami today...this was the one that appeared healthy. Everyone else seems to be okay...though only really the rainbow fish ate...

We're in the midst of a water change and will add more Melafix and Pimafix.

Thanks for all the help!

Sorry to hear that :(

I wish you the best of luck!

(At this stage, it doesn't look like fungus is the only issue. Melafix and Pimafix is a pretty good cure all unless you have internal or external parasites though.)

hungryhound
04-07-2007, 01:48 PM
thanks for your kind words and thanks for your help.

With the water change the tank is starting to act like normal again.

Lady Hobbs
04-07-2007, 02:52 PM
http://www.gnsaquarium.com.au/html/ammonia_nitrite.html

This is a good article about how high ammonia, nitrites and nitrates affect fish. Sorry you're having so much trouble but sometimes you have to do what you have to do, as well. Spending a bunch of money on a $2.50 fish means sometimes you have to draw the line and decide if this fish is worth all the hassle and expense and the stress treating him may be putting on all the others.

I have to say that the only fish I have lost (other than the very occasional one of two) has been the gourami. I lost all I had......like 8 of them other than for the big gourami's who did great. They are very susceptible to adverse water conditions. But they were one of the first fish I had, as well, so possibly I didn't have my water parmeters up to perfect yet, either.

Did you do water changes before adding another dose of the meds. I know a 25% water change is recommend before adding more.

I wish you well and hope they do OK.

OH.....I wanted to add.......I have never had barely any nitrates in any of my tanks ever. Yesterday (on a lark) did a check of my 55 gallon and I had nitrates to 40 ! I about stroked out. This is the tank I kept those potted plants in for a while and using CO2. So, I have a mystery here, as well. Why would nitrates go from less than 5 to 40 in a short time I have NO idea.

Lady Hobbs
04-07-2007, 03:12 PM
Here's another reason for high nitrates

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Freshwater-Aquarium-3216/High-NITRATE.htm

In my case, I believe it's due to feeding more blood worms than I normally do. I will do another water change today.