overstocking cichlids?

[sheamurai]

Hi
I am just planning a 50gal cichlid tank. I was a bit shocked when the guy at the lfs told me to overstock on purpose. He said it keeps aggression from becoming too much of an issue. I've taken his advice on how to set up the tank (sand, rocky hiding places, staging area, doubled filtration) but the overstocking has me a touch worried. If its true, how much to overstock? I've spent my whole fishkeeping career on trying NOT to overstock, so I haven't any idea on what "safe overstocking" would be. I don't want a bunch of adult cichlids bumping into each other a few years down the road, but can't quite picture how to stock too much but not TOO much.
thanks in advance for your opinions...

[Northernguy]

Its never a good idea! Unless you plan on lots of maintenance.More water changes.More filtration.Probably more illness.
Are you going with Africans?

[Lab_Rat]

If you're talking about the mbuna then yes, you will likely want to overstock for aggression. This will require extra filtration and extra vigilant maintenance on your part. Overstocking distributes the aggression among many fish so that no one fish is singled out to receive the brunt of the aggression. If you have too few mbuna there is a good chance the most aggressive one will systematically kill off the others and soon you will be left with a lone mbuna. More mbuna, everyone gets picked on a little by the dominant one but not so much they're killed. You will have to switch your stock around to figure out what works, and when a sub dominant fish challenges the dominant you will need to make adjustments by rehoming one (usually the sub dominant one otherwise the hierarchy is all messed up).

I will be setting up a victorian/malawi tank and I will be overstocking for aggression. I'm planning on approximately 15 or so fish in my 55g which will likely require twice a week 50% water changes, along with purigen in my filter to help keep my nitrates less than 10ppm.

[sheamurai]

Yes, I am going with Africans - and only the smaller less aggressive species.
I have purigen ready to go, but it is not in the seeding filter yet...the filter is running on my 77 right now while I set up the 50.
I've also been told LOTS of bubbles...?

[Lab_Rat]

I'm not sure what you mean about lots of bubbles...never heard that. Lots of rock work, caves, and hiding spaces are very important.

[Jaster]

My fish guy told me the same thing. I also have Africans and I would say I'm pretty close to over stocked on my 80. Right now I have 9 cichlids in total and I also have all males. No ladies around keeps these guys from having something to fight over. I have a huge DIY background with tons of caves, rocks, and plants... Everyone still has their own spot to go and I think that helps a ton. I get the occasional tiff here and there but nothing serious.

My fish guy did say I need to pay a bit more attention to the water though. I run 2 emperor 400's and I am still have no issues with doing a normal 40% wc once a week. They are pigs though... here and there I might do a quick surface vac to neaten things up.

[sheamurai]

By lots of bubbles I meant I was told I need to add aeration - LFS advised either a bubble wall or a couple larger discs. No one else has beefed up the bubbles?

[Lab_Rat]

Not aeration...filtration is what is very important to beef up. With appropriate filtration there is no need for extra aeration.

[sheamurai]

check - thanks! You just saved me $80 for a suitable air pump...

[kaybee]

Understocking african cichlids such as mbunas and other types will enhance aggression as already explained. Understocking would be 3-5 random specimens in a 50gal.

However, while overstocking can be effective at diffusing aggression, a well-stocked and properly gender-ratio'd set up can also work without overstocking. (Rough estimate: Well-stocked would for a 50gal would be 7-10, overstocked would be 12-20 in a 50gal).

With that said some species are best kept in large groups for their own safety (demasoni's, tropheus, etc), while other species you may only be able to keep a single male of that species, regardless of how overly stocked the tank is (good luck at keeping multiple matured male melanochromis chipokae's or auratus in the same overstocked system).

With smaller less aggressive species, several females per male per species should suffice. If going the overstocked route, 50%+ water changes are the norm to deal with the nitrate build-up.

[sheamurai]

is that cichlids only, or does it include "incidental" species?
I was going to stock a small school of something fast and a bottom feeder of some type.

[Not NEW Not OLD]

the cichlids will clean thebottom and will eat small amounts of algae...a bottom feeder is really not necessary although you can put some synodontis in with them and they are supposed to leave them alone. ck my sig thats my 90 gal stocking... no fish over 3.5 inches yet and some as small as fry... not going to remove when they breed. let darwinism have a go at natural selection...my biggest fish is the 3.5 inch blue kenyi or elec blue.. and he just picks a cave and makes a home...i change the rock decor up once a month or two months when i need to do a better cleaning...i keep a max jet 1200 down low in the rear corner hidden by some fake plants to circulate the water at the bottom of the tank to keep the larger pieces of debris(poop and food) from settling in and causing excess waste. this pump is on a timer with the lights and is only on during the day and off at sleepy time...im probably not gonna stock the 90 with any more fish although if i find an adult that fits in the mix with my species i may add one or two more...ive got a 75 i need to convinve the wife to let me setup and we will see what i stock that may do a single or dual species tank like elec blues or blue kenyi and all yelow labs with a black type aqua scape would make those blues and yellows pop...
just my .02 cents..
about bubbles quickly...bubbles do not aerate the water...the provide movement and the breakup of surface tension at the top of the tank...when the surface tension at the top of the tank is broken it allows the pressure differential of O2 in the air and water to even out... the tank expels co2 and breathes in o2 from the breakup of the surface by the bubbles...
i personally like them but only use one or two pieces in my big tank on the back wall....

i know this is long and winded but phew done....sorry
NNNOthumbs2:

[Lab_Rat]

I can't think of a small school of something fast that could really go in with mbuna. Mbuna are pretty fast and I've never seen someone successfully keep a schooling fish with them. Generally, if you go mbuna, you go mbuna only. I do know some rift lake keepers that do have bristlenose plecos. Synodontis are also kept with african cichlids.

[sheamurai]

hmmm. It was another thing I was told, to stock some chaser fish (large barbs etc)...if I don't need to waste the inches on other species I won't....thanks!

[Lab_Rat]

Maybe whoever told you that was thinking american cichlids. The africans, esp mbuna, are best in a mbuna only tank.

[Dixie]

What is the footprint of the 50g. tank (length by width)?
The height of a tank for african cichlids isn't so important. In a common 55g. (48" X 12") You could do breeding groups (1male & 3-4 females) of 3 different species. You could also have a couple of the cats kept with african cichlids & a bn pleco. Some people don't have luck with the plecos but if they are added first or with the first young cichlids they can do ok. I've always had them with mine.

[sheamurai]

my tank is 30x18, a 50 rather than a 55.
I don't really want to breed anything, as I don't have the knowledge (or the room/tanks!) to deal with fry. I'd rather have a variety, one each of a variety of species rather than breeding groups...

[Lab_Rat]

Honestly, that's not the best footprint for mbuna, but if you stick with milder species and have plenty of caves it should be ok. I did the random species of fish in my previous mbuna tank and it worked out ok. For my next tank I'll probably stick to 3 species, but I'm still not sure yet.

[sheamurai]

hmmm...well, its the tank I'm stuck with now, and I'll definitely be keeping to the least aggressive species my lfs has. After this tank has run for a while I hope to have my "favourites" hammered out and then there may be a tank shuffle...

thanks to all for your input!

[Lab_Rat]

No problem! :thumb:

[Scrup]

in my experiences understocking with juvies is not as much of a problem, but as soon as the come of age, they get mean fast. best to have a fully stocked or overstocked (like was previously said, only if you have the filtration and hiding places for em) tank from the get go, and not have to worry about dead fish.


I can tell you in my 55G I have 11 mixed Mbuna (3"-6"), 2 skunk loaches, a pleco and a syno, and they all get along fine. Actually the skunks are the meanest in the tank... (they all bicker now and then but no one gets seriously hurt as I have over 50 individual caves and countless nooks)

[sheamurai]

I have ample filtration, I beleive - I have an Aquaclear 500 (rated up to 100gal) and an Eheim 2213 (rated up to 65gal) both set up on it. I'm done stocking now, and they are all juvies. (so hard to pick species/buy juvies when they all look so much the same!) I introduced all the fish to the new tank at the same time, so no one had territory before anyone else. Aside from the "mistakes" I had purchased already that will likely need to be rehomed as they get older, from what I've read here the thing I still need to do is make some more caves. I do have a rock wall set up, but everyone seems to have far more caves than I do. I only count about 15, which sounds like too few compared to everyone else, especially as they mature. Which I initially thought would be fine as there are more caves than fish. Evidently not, lol.
So far I only have chewed tails on the smallest fish, which happens overnight. There's almost no fighting thru the day. The only tussles I have seen has been my jewel pair. I imagine one of those will be among the ones I will end up rehoming.
Back to the lfs for some more rock...

[Scrup]

So far I only have chewed tails on the smallest fish


well there is your first problem...stop chewing on them.

I made most of my caves based on this..really cheap but..well..time consuming if you do it right. well worth it in my opinion. most mbuna will swim as high as there are rocks to hide in, after adding these they actually are on all levels of the tank...
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
if you do these, some advise...
1-make sure you buy silicone that is all the same color/type...mixing makes it look silly.

2-dont worry too much about the sand on the inside...actually I didn't put any in mine...cant see it either...

3- fiberglass screens work great as a substitute for the paper separator, just have to layer a little siliconed sand on them...not too hard to do.

4-the gloves are NOT optional. lifesavers in fact. get as many as you know you will need, and then a few more.

5- Mbuna seem to like them better if some/most of the caves have 2 entrances. make sure and leave some caves with small holes for the younger fish to hide in (3/4",1" holes)

6- make sure they are flush/up against the bottom of the tank, or they will fall over, possibly trapping/squishing some fish...another option would be to either plan for that, and pre-lean them on each other, and a few on the side of the tank, or get some sort of fish safe rigid plastic sheet/plate and silicone/epoxy it to the bottom of the tower...then cover the sheet with your substrate.

another REALLY cheap option, go buy a few coconuts, saw in half, boil for 2 hours, replenishing water as needed. let cool and you should be able to just work the meat out with a spoon and by carefully squeezing the husk. (by the way, it will still taste great)

drill a hole in each half, minimum of 1.25" (would go 1.5-2" if you have or plan on using them with adults)

boil for 1 hour, change water, repeat until water is clear.

add to tank.

one night a month I flip them over for a night and the pleco goes NUTS!

next day I flip them back over.



downside to both of these, makes vac'ing the gravel a PITA, moreso with the towers as they can be hard to safely balance without a bottom support or being flush against the glass.


hope this helps!

if you need any help please let me know!

[sheamurai]

hey those look great...and if I take that project on (sounds like a good winter project) it will give me an excuse to buy a jigsaw...or maybe a dremel... :) and there would go all the money I saved, lol...

[Lab_Rat]

You have jewels in there??? If so, I'd be taking them back since they are uber aggressive and have different needs than mbuna. They are african cichlids but they are not rift lake cichlids. They are likely to be big time trouble, esp if they start breeding.

[sheamurai]

yeah, I figured I'd be rehoming those...

[jergreen]

The one reputable lfs in town has a Malawi display tank that he has had running for years now. Its 180 gallon and he has at least 100 fish in it. Some are full grown and some are fry and in between. He basically lets it cycle some of his fish grow old and die and some fry manage to grow old enough to escape being eaten and become permanent members.

He says as long as you have enough fish in the tank aggression is not a problem. As well if you have enough hiding places some of the fry will escape and continue to live in your tank. He figured I could probably do 30-40 malawis in my 80 gallon with enough filtration. Currently I have 6 msobo, 4 socolfi, 4 acei and 4 demasoni and run a fluval fx-5.

Another suggestion I have for any potential malawi owners is go to your local landscaping whole saler and see if you can pick up some rock from them. I picked up enough black slate to fill my 80 gallon for around $20. Probably 1/5 of what it would have cost me in the lfs.

[sheamurai]

Just a follow up - my tank is pretty much full up, overfull to some, but anyway I am done adding fish. Pretty sad and disappointed tho - I bought two nice syno cats (and they were bigger than anything in the tank) and the dominant male Acei bullied them to death. I tried to provide "catfish specific" shelter to the 2nd one after the first died (found it when I got home from work), and shuffled all the rocks around to erase any territories there were. Not sure why, but the catfish didn't even try to evade or hide, just sat there and let the acei chomp on his barbels. In the morning the second one was dead too.
:(
The acei was the only fish I saw bugging them, even tho they are supposed to be a milder mbuna, but mine seems to be the exception to the rule.