AUGHHHHH... ...HATE! (hole in the head, hith)

[BIO-Linist]

Sick fish: 1 female tilapia, 12", 11 years old
Tankmates: 2 (unknown sex) yoyo loach, 4", 5 years old

Symptoms: clean white (exposed flesh color) holes appearing on gill covers and head, no apparent texture or discharge
Time: started a month ago, went away, came back with a vengeance a week ago

Parameters: (last tested yesterday, been changing 25% water / 1-2 days since last week)
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~10 ppm
pH: 7

Cause:
29 gallon Eclipse
University
Midterms
Missed one week's water change
Failed first calculus exam
Diet:
Morning: 3 pellets Hikari Cichlid Staple (size medium pellet)
pinch Tetra TetraMin Tropical Flakes
Every other morning add: 1 disc Wardley Algae Discs
Afternoon: 2 pellets Hikari Cichlid Staple (size medium pellet)
pinch Tetra TetraMin Tropical Flakes
Whenever: suck on algae in tank

Find solution
Available resources: $90 birthday money remaining
18 gal plastic storage tub
100% tea tree oil - says "do not use on children or animals" or something like that
walmart generic centrum silver
epsom salt
instant ocean salt
methylene blue
quick cure

fresh bananas
fresh mango
fresh garlic
fresh broccoli
fresh lettuce
frozen peas

A. Increase water volume.
Option 1. Fast-track building that 125 gal acrylic
-unlikely to finish in time
Option 2. Quickly find a 55 gal glass
-stress of moving
-need to be a used tank for affordability, could have weakened.
estimate cost $55 55 gal tank $10 lighting panel cover $15 diy concrete block + ?wood stand (needs to be stable on a sloped surface) total $80
Option 3. Quickly find a 55 gal plastic drum, diy an overflow and use drum as sump only for increased waste diluting volume
+no moving
-does not increase swimming room
estimate cost $30 drum, $30 pump, $10 fittings total $70

B. Improve diet. (omnivore but more on the herbivore side, refuses to eat live foods)
Please see the thread I made under the food section:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Option 1. crush some walmart generic centrum silver, dissolve in water and soak pellets
Option 2. feed fresh food <insert recipe>?
Option 3. buy processed food <insert make and model here>? estimate cost $10

C. Medication.
Option 1. DIY melafix using tea tree oil
+cheap
-weak
Option 2. Look harder for metronidazole (flagyl) or dimetridazole
+known effective
-I've looked at 3 places, can't find any
-probably expensive
Option 3?? Some other med? There's Maracyn and Maracyn 2 available at the lfs, that's probably the strongest stuff they have, effectiveness against HITH unknown

Actions done so far
- Removed carbon. I suspect the carbon a little because a few months ago I ran out of the carbon I had been using for years (Penn-Plax Pro-Carb) - imo it was the awesomest carbon ever, but the lfs no longer stock it. The shape was rounded cylindrical pellets of uniform size that rarely if ever slipped through the carbon section in the filter. It made all the great rice krispies sound when first wet that would be expected of a high quality carbon. So I had to switch to a different carbon, Marineland Black Diamond. It was the only thing they had. It was extremely annoying as some of it was always slipping through the filter and ending up floating in the tank.

- Changed the water every 1-2 days, for a week now. Doesn't seem to be helping. I don't have the facilities to age/condition the water beforehand. I used to have a "clean" bucket but long ago it kept ending up as a trash can for yard work so I gave up trying to reserve a clean bucket.
I don't dechlorinate. Never did for the last 5 years. According to the board of water supply, chlorine levels are 0-0.15 ppm, and most of it is gone by the time it gets through the pipes. I don't smell any chlorine. I know what chlorinated water smells like, I've recently been to the mainland and tried to drink tap water, but the smell was just gross, reminiscent of nitrogen dioxide from reacting copper with nitric acid.
On the few times I did add dechlorinator to tank, there were fish losses, possibly from the massive amount of unreacted dechlorinator. I didn't know the concentration of chorine at that time and just followed the directions on the bottle. (one capful / 10 gallons) Now through some calculations I've realized it was a massive overdose: I found the proper amount to add, even for the full supply end strength of chlorine is about 0.1 mL/10 gallons. Calculations were as follows:
One teaspoon (5mL) treats 6.5 ppm of chlorine in 10 gallons of water.
5mL * (0.15ppm/6.5ppm) = ~0.12 mL
Now this was an ancient bottle of Marineland BIO-Safe, which they don't even make anymore. Perhaps when it doesn't have any chlorine to react with, it slowly reacts with other things, such as fish.
HOWEVER, with the massive increase in water changes and removal of carbon, it might allow for enough chlorine, even a tiny bit, to build up and hurt the fish.
So now I need a dechlorinator. What's the best in dechlorinators nowadays?
estimate cost: $7

- Tried to feed some fresh food. So far I've only gotten her to eat a small bit of banana. She ignores peas. No other fresh food has been tried.

Aside from feeding and rinsing the filter pad, nothing beyond the things listed in this section has been done.

Rebuttal of opposing flames (such flames will not be entertained beyond this section):
Flame: Give her to the lfs and/or find her a better home.
Rebuttal:
Tilapia is considered a cheap food fish here. It is widely and cheaply available live, frozen, filleted, in ready to bake battered sticks, and also prepared, hot and ready to eat, by various forms of frying, steaming, etc.
The economy sucks. People are wanting to GIVE ME THEIR fish; just recently someone tried to give me a ten inch pleco.
Who would responsibly take somebody's low market value, plain, sick fish and nurse it back to health?

Flame: Give up, and/or just euth already.
Rebuttal: That goes against my personal and religious beliefs. End.

Flame: You're an irresponsible !@#$%.
No contest. Forgive me I'm sorry!!!:scry: :scry: :scry:

[VoidParadigm]

I'm confused. Erm. Good luck?

[Lady Hobbs]

There are several medications just for Hole in the Head in the online fish stores.

Even small amounts of chlorine kill your bacteria in the filter which is why it must be used. You can not overdose. Another thing you can purchase online when you order the Hole in the Head medication.

[Red]

Why do you have a 11" fish in a 29gal tank? That is your problem right there.

[Northernguy]

Why do you have a 11" fish in a 29gal tank? That is your problem right there.

I do agreee! Too small a tank will stress them out enough to easily cause HITH!Its hard to keep your water quality pristine with a fish that big in a small tank.
Do you have enough filtration on the tank?
Find it a larger home!

[BIO-Linist]

Don't wanna to wait for something to come in the mail. I'll start calling up pet stores all over the island. I just got dechlorinator last night.
IMO it's a suspicious coincidence that all the local fs are fresh out of hith meds.
"We used to have it but we don't have any right now"
I was hoping for opinions on the options I listed under "increase water volume", and all the other elements of "find solution"
Cleaning and setting up a used 55 would take several days, have stress from moving and increase only the length by about two fifths. (width and height are about the same). I cannot afford anything larger. (see "resources")
So I want to know if increasing water volume via a 55 gal plastic drum sump is a viable option. However, it wouldn't add any swimming room. Assuming I can get a clean food grade drum it should take about two days to set up.

Eclipse is a strong filter with a biowheel. I don't know the gph on it but it used to put out so much current I put diffusers on the outflow. Flow rate is not diminished at all by the diffusers; they just spread it out.

Added small dose (~0.02 mL) of tea tree oil yesterday morning. Used an insulin syringe (precision to 0.02 mL) and mixed in a water bottle, shook and poured entire contents in tank.

No improvement.

[Nobodynotime]

Way too small of a tank

[BIO-Linist]

I do what I can with the resources I have.
The common tank sizes here are 10, 20, 29, and 55 gallons. Other sizes are not widely available and cost significantly more.
If you can get a 1337 gallon tank set up, filtered, and medicated for $90 in Oʻahu, Hawaiʻi, pm me. I'll pay you $90.

[BIO-Linist]

oh %^& a tsunami just hit Samoa this morning

bad day

[Crispy]

I don't think your fish is going to improve in such cramped quarters. Time to look at smaller fish more suitable for a 29g.

[Cristoff]

Has the Tilapia lived in that size tank for the whole 11 years? If so, I'm shocked it survived - it's almost half as long as the tank itself!

I don't really have any more advice that hasn't already been given (including the standard get a bigger tank...), I'm just stunned - he has to be wearing that tank like a speedo :hmm3grin2orange:

[BIO-Linist]

Why are y'all so pessimistic? Maybe y'all need a pic for that awww factor so
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
She lived in the 29 since 2005. Before that she lived in a 20. Y'know what? I'll start from the very beginning.
1998. My older brother is in 6th grade. The 6th grade class has an annual project called "Mini Society" where they pretend to be a simple capitalistic economy, using fake money. To finish it off they have a big sale at the end of the quarter and everyone sells stuff to the parents for fake money.*

.
.
.

My parents come home with fish . . . lots of fish, which end up staying in various containers.

*(when I get to sixth grade the teachers say they disapproved so greatly of the sale of live animals, it only happened one time, when my brother was in 6th grade, and has not happened before and will not happen again)

.
.
.

They all die after a short while, except for one tiny dime-sized fish with striking silver/black vertical stripes, that I name Tiger. Tiger stays in a fish bowl for a length of time that I don't remember.

.
.
.

At some point Tiger moves to a 20 gal, growing up to somewhere around 10 inches. She lost the striking stripes as she grew. I find out that she's a female tilapia and push for a 50 or 55 gallon tank. Aquarium maintenance gradually transfers to my care sometime around 2002 or 2003.

.
.
.

In 2004 my dad gives me a 29 gallon Eclipse for my birthday. I cycle it with guppies for a year (that was a lot of guppies). He says he'll give me progressively larger tanks in 10 gallon increments every birthday if I'm good and get good grades. In 2005 I foolishly take some Honors classes and barely pass. Tiger moves to the 29 gallon Eclipse in 2005. My mom blames my poor performance on fish and strongly opposes getting a larger aquarium, on grounds of proportionally increased time spent on maintenance. I try to explain that larger aquarium means more water volume and actually less maintenance. I fail.

.
.
.

In 2007 they relent and allow for the possibility of a larger aquarium. After shopping around at several lfs and big chain stores we learn the only standard available size larger than 29 gallons is 55 gallons. Other sizes would need to be custom ordered for exorbitant prices. I wanted the best for Tiger so I research and decide building a large tank from the ground up is the way to go. I start building during vacation but become very ill and can't continue, only partially building a stand.

.
.
.

In 2008 summer school is hard core.
In 2009 I get on it again. I learn about Craigslist and shop around for a tank. Finding none suitable I recommit to building a tank. I get sick again.
Now Tiger develops hith when I'm half done building her new 125 gallon acrylic aquarium! Just a few more months it would be ready! Oh the humanity!

[Anomaly]

Try to find some Metronidazole, keep the water in the 29 as pristing as possible, and finish up that 125 ASAP. Best of luck!

Here's a link you might be interested in:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[BIO-Linist]

Thanks Anomaly. I have read that article.
Now I have a question to add under "improve nutrition":
What would be an effective equivalent to "HBH Oscar Show, which contains Vitamin A, B1, B2, B6, B12, C, D3, E, K3, Biotin, Choline, Folic Acid, Niacin, Pantothenic Acid, Manganese, Potassium, Zinc and Selenium" for a (mostly) herbivore? (see "diet" below for current diet)
After calling many pet stores I finally found somewhere that still had some in stock. Just got API General Cure. Active ingredients 250 mg Metronidazole and 75 mg Praziquantel.

+1 for Pet's Discount Warehouse!
+14 for Mom who paid for the meds!

It still makes me suspicious that so many lfs have run out of hith meds at this time.

It's amazing what one cute picture can do. I think I'll keep posting it every so often to keep up the positive spirit!

So, any opinions on the options I listed in the originating post?
In particular, how much would be expected from a die off of microbes? The sides and back are covered with algae, partially for Tiger to eat. She does eat a lot of algae. Metronidazole and praziquantel kill parasites, so my algae and nitrifying bacteria should be ok, right?

(since it's fallen a page I'll repost the op, updated slightly)
:

Sick fish: 1 female tilapia, 12", 11 years old
Tankmates: 2 (unknown sex) yoyo loach, 4", 5 years old

Symptoms: clean white (exposed flesh color) holes appearing on gill covers and head, no apparent texture or discharge
Time: started a month ago, went away, came back with a vengeance a week ago

Parameters: (last tested Sunday, been changing 25% water / 1-2 days since last week, last change on Sunday, will test again soon)
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~10 ppm
pH: 7

Cause:
29 gallon Eclipse
University
Midterms
Missed one week's water change
Failed first calculus exam
Diet:
Morning: 3 pellets Hikari Cichlid Staple (size medium pellet)
pinch Tetra TetraMin Tropical Flakes
Every other morning add: 1 disc Wardley Algae Discs
Afternoon: 2 pellets Hikari Cichlid Staple (size medium pellet)
pinch Tetra TetraMin Tropical Flakes
Whenever: suck on algae in tank

Find solution
Available resources: $90 birthday money remaining
18 gal plastic storage tub
100% tea tree oil - says "do not use on children or animals" or something like that
walmart generic centrum silver
epsom salt
instant ocean salt
methylene blue
quick cure

fresh bananas
fresh mango
fresh garlic
fresh broccoli
fresh lettuce
frozen peas

A. Increase water volume.
Option 1. Fast-track building that 125 gal acrylic
-unlikely to finish in time
Option 2. Quickly find a 55 gal glass
-stress of moving
-need to be a used tank for affordability, could have weakened.
estimate cost $55 55 gal tank $10 lighting panel cover $15 diy concrete block + ?wood stand (needs to be stable on a sloped surface) total $80
Option 3. Quickly find a 55 gal plastic drum, diy an overflow and use drum as sump only for increased waste diluting volume
+no moving
-does not increase swimming room
estimate cost $30 drum, $30 pump, $10 fittings total $70

B. Improve diet. (omnivore but more on the herbivore side, refuses to eat live foods)
Please see the thread I made under the food section:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
Option 1. crush some walmart generic centrum silver, dissolve in water and soak pellets
Option 2. feed fresh food <insert recipe>?
Option 3. buy processed food <insert make and model here>? estimate cost $10

C. Medication.
Option 1. DIY melafix using tea tree oil
+cheap
-weak
Option 2. Look harder for metronidazole (flagyl) or dimetridazole
+known effective
-I've looked at 3 places, can't find any
-probably expensive
Update: Found metronidazole in API General Cure!
Option 3?? Some other med? There's Maracyn and Maracyn 2 available at the lfs, that's probably the strongest stuff they have, effectiveness against HITH unknown

Actions done so far
- Removed carbon. I suspect the carbon a little because a few months ago I ran out of the carbon I had been using for years (Penn-Plax Pro-Carb) - imo it was the awesomest carbon ever, but the lfs no longer stock it. The shape was rounded cylindrical pellets of uniform size that rarely if ever slipped through the carbon section in the filter. It made all the great rice krispies sound when first wet that would be expected of a high quality carbon. So I had to switch to a different carbon, Marineland Black Diamond. It was the only thing they had. It was extremely annoying as some of it was always slipping through the filter and ending up floating in the tank.

- Changed the water every 1-2 days, for a week now. Last change on 9/27/09. Doesn't seem to be helping. I don't have the facilities to age/condition the water beforehand. I used to have a "clean" bucket but long ago it kept ending up as a trash can for yard work so I gave up trying to reserve a clean bucket.
I don't dechlorinate. Never did for the last 5 years. According to the board of water supply, chlorine levels are 0-0.15 ppm, and most of it is gone by the time it gets through the pipes. I don't smell any chlorine. I know what chlorinated water smells like, I've recently been to the mainland and tried to drink tap water, but the smell was just gross, reminiscent of nitrogen dioxide from reacting copper with nitric acid.
On the few times I did add dechlorinator to tank, there were fish losses, possibly from the massive amount of unreacted dechlorinator. I didn't know the concentration of chorine at that time and just followed the directions on the bottle. (one capful / 10 gallons) Now through some calculations I've realized it was a massive overdose: I found the proper amount to add, even for the full supply end strength of chlorine is about 0.1 mL/10 gallons. Calculations were as follows:
One teaspoon (5mL) treats 6.5 ppm of chlorine in 10 gallons of water.
5mL * (0.15ppm/6.5ppm) = ~0.12 mL
Now this was an ancient bottle of Marineland BIO-Safe, which they don't even make anymore. Perhaps when it doesn't have any chlorine to react with, it slowly reacts with other things, such as fish.
HOWEVER, with the massive increase in water changes and removal of carbon, it might allow for enough chlorine, even a tiny bit, to build up and hurt the fish.
So now I need a dechlorinator. What's the best in dechlorinators nowadays?
estimate cost: $7

- Tried to feed some fresh food. So far I've only gotten her to eat a small bit of banana, once. She ignores peas. No other fresh food has been tried.

Aside from feeding and rinsing the filter pad, nothing beyond the things listed in this section has been done.

Rebuttal of opposing flames (such flames will not be entertained beyond this section):
Flame: Give her to the lfs and/or find her a better home.
Rebuttal:
Tilapia is considered a cheap food fish here. It is widely and cheaply available live, frozen, filleted, in ready to bake battered sticks, and also prepared, hot and ready to eat, by various forms of frying, steaming, etc.
The economy sucks. People are wanting to GIVE ME THEIR fish; just recently someone tried to give me a ten inch pleco.
Who would responsibly take somebody's low market value, plain, sick fish and nurse it back to health?

Flame: Give up, and/or just euth already.
Rebuttal: That goes against my personal and religious beliefs. End.

Flame: You're an irresponsible !@#$%.
No contest. Forgive me I'm sorry!!! :scry: :scry: :scry:

[Crispy]

The best medicine for HITH is pristine conditions. Oscars frequently get this in cramped quarters, so doesn't surprise me that your fish got it. It's largely the stress of being so cramped in. I don't see all the meds in the world helping here.
Sorry it wasn't what you want to hear.

[MonkeyPox]

Forgive me if I missed it in the post, but I didn't see your water parameters. Those would be helpful as well.

I'll echo some of the other useful advice you have here, the fish is in much too small a tank. The relevance is that even if you clear up the HITH, it is quite likely to return as the conditions that caused HITH in the first place will remain.
If you can afford a 55g tank, I would go that route, though larger then that would certainly help. You can skip things like a stand and top in the short term if necessary.


Note: You can not smell chloramine, which is preferred to Chlorine in most municipal water supplies. It also doesn't off gas. No idea about Hawaii's water system.

[BIO-Linist]

Sun. 9/27
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~10 ppm
pH: 7

Fri. 10/2
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~20 ppm
pH: 6.8

No chloramine. No fluoride either. thumbs2: Sometimes some group of people pushes adding chemicals to the water, but a bigger, better, awesomer group of people always opposes it with great effectiveness.

Edit: Oh and
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[MonkeyPox]

Sometimes some group of people pushes adding chemicals to the water, but a bigger, better, awesomer group of people always opposes it with great effectiveness.

I'm not sure what this means.

[BIO-Linist]

I was referring to the debate about fluoridating the water supply.

[Cristoff]

Great looking fish and the water perams are fine. I think it's simply the stress of the cramped quarters and perhaps larger fluctuations in the nitrates due to the massive bioload this thing has to put out!

Hurry on the larger tank (I've been following your thread on that I believe) and once in there, I think you'll see his condition improve greatly.

BEST of luck!

[vegas2k]

can make a tasty dish...especially to the filipino community...

I KEED!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

That's a good lookin fish :)

[BIO-Linist]

Gonna change water and begin medicating with the API General Cure soon.
None of the options I listed under "increase water volume" have been put in motion thus far.
At this point I'm intending to treat the whole 29 gallon tank as is.
Hope & pray everyone including the yoyo loaches will be ok.

One more thing: Before I do that I'm gonna check if the dechlorinator screws up my ammonia test.

And of course:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.],

and one of the yoyos:
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[BIO-Linist]

I did some messing around with ammonium nitrate and dechlorinator (Weco Products Instant Dechlor), and decided it does not screw the ammonia test (TetraTest Total Ammonia), nor the nitrate test part of the Tetra 5 in 1 strip.

Changed water and dosed 3 packets of API General Cure.

[Lady Hobbs]

A true act of love would be to find him a larger home. Knowing he will be much happier should make the sacrifice easier for you. He should be in a 75 gallon, at least. It's very hard to part with fish we love but because we love them we're able to give them better homes when it's needed.

[BIO-Linist]

Sun. 9/27
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~10 ppm
pH: 7

Fri. 10/2
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~20 ppm
pH: 6.8

Mon. 10/5
NH3 & NH4+: 0 ppm
NO2-: 0 ppm
NO3-: ~13 ppm
pH: 7

Since no ammonia or nitrite was detected, it looks like the biological filter is working correctly, and was not damaged much, if at all by the API General Cure.

[violet]

I don't think you'll find a large enough tank anywhere for that price.. and if you do your lucky.. you should find a new owner who has a bigger tank for your fish. It's wrong to keep him in a small tank... plain wrong

[BIO-Linist]

Why is there this mentality of "get X tank NOW or give up"?

I have asked for opinions on options for increasing water volume that could have given a total volume in the neighborhood of up 80 gallons but it has been completely ignored, even when I had repeatedly inquired about it in several posts, along with the majority of the information I have given.

It seems the pessimists haven't even bothered to read the entirety of my posts (Hellooo... I specifically said Tiger is a SHE, a FEMALE many many times!) and simply decided to gloss over everything on sight of overstocking, simply posting something extremely short to the effect of "get X tank NOW or give up".

They have also failed to notice and/or acknowledge the 125 gallon tank I've been building and has been set back nearly a month due to time spent researching, shopping for hith medication and treatment.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Anomaly]

The problem is that you can keep a fish in just about anything that holds water. So if you have an 80 gallon container lying around that is longer than it is tall, then you will know better than us. IMHO, working non-stop on the 125 until it's finished would be the best thing you could do for her.

[BIO-Linist]

Thanks Anomaly...
My previous post was not for you; you've been really helpful throughout!


Also thanks to any/everyone who actually read through everything! I know it was kinda long.

[Crispy]

Agreed. Getting that tank built is the best way to save your fish. I would put your money and time there and get it done ASAP.

BTW, nice loach!

[BIO-Linist]

I just bought a 42 gal sump. $60.
$90 - $60 = $30
Remain: $30. Gonna be limited on pump options.
29 gal + 42 gal = 71 gal

Course of API General cure completed Thurs. 10/9. Changed water and running carbon. No improvement noted yet.

[Anomaly]

May I suggest moving your fish to the 42 and using your 29 as a sump.

[BIO-Linist]

I can't do that. :11: It is a purpose built acrylic sump, not a regular tank that someone converted. It has dividers dividing it into 4 chambers approx. 10 gallons each that hold the sides together under tension. With the dividers in it holds nicely without much bowing. However, if I cut out the dividers it would more than likely burst when filled.