3 gallon tank

[Iron Man]

I have a small tank that I setup about two months ago. I used to have a 40 gallon tank and I didnt have this problem. Anyway, I started the 3 gal tank with these tablet called "Bowl Buddies Fish Tank Water Conditioning Tablets" and 3 goldfish.I expected the goldfish to die right away but the didnt. I have plants growing in there so I installed a super bright florescent light, one of the spiral kind. Algae started growing everywhere so I got rid of one goldfish and put in a Chinese Algae Eater. The algea is mostly gone. For the first 6 weeks everything went fine. I was expecting the water to get cloudy and then balance out like new tanks do but this never happened. Now however the tank water is cloudy. I did a 50% water change but this didnt help. I did this twice. Now the water is stinking up my room. I purchased and used "NutraFin Cycle Biological Aquarium Supplement". Its dormant bacteria. Well after 4 hours the water didnt stink anymore however it was still cloudy. Now 2 days later, the water stinks again and the water is still cloudy. I there anything I can do?? Please let me know if there is. Thank you. :help: :help: :help:

[Drumachine09]

First of all those gold fish need 50 gallons colectivley. Second of all, did you cycle your tank?

[cocoa_pleco]

WOAH YEAH. goldfish need 20g for one, and 10g each thereafter.

[Chrona]

I have a small tank that I setup about two months ago. I used to have a 40 gallon tank and I didnt have this problem. Anyway, I started the 3 gal tank with these tablet called "Bowl Buddies Fish Tank Water Conditioning Tablets" and 3 goldfish.I expected the goldfish to die right away but the didnt. I have plants growing in there so I installed a super bright florescent light, one of the spiral kind. Algae started growing everywhere so I got rid of one goldfish and put in a Chinese Algae Eater. The algea is mostly gone. For the first 6 weeks everything went fine. I was expecting the water to get cloudy and then balance out like new tanks do but this never happened. Now however the tank water is cloudy. I did a 50% water change but this didnt help. I did this twice. Now the water is stinking up my room. I purchased and used "NutraFin Cycle Biological Aquarium Supplement". Its dormant bacteria. Well after 4 hours the water didnt stink anymore however it was still cloudy. Now 2 days later, the water stinks again and the water is still cloudy. I there anything I can do?? Please let me know if there is. Thank you. :help: :help: :help:

Alright, where to start...

As the others said, yes, you need MUCH more room for the goldfish, as they are very dirty. A 3g tank can't hold much more than a tetra or two, or maybe a betta.

That chinese algae eater will stop eating algae after it gets a whiff of fish food. And they get real mean as they mature. They also grow to like 6 inches

Shut the lights off and leave them off. Fish don't need anything more than ambient lighting for a day/night cycle. You don't have any live plants, so a 20 watt CF is pointless.

My recommendations? Get a much larger tank or return all of the fish. None of them will last much longer in a 3g tank. The water is still cloudy because the bacteria can't deal with the ludicrous amount of waste produces by the 4 fish in a small tank. Until then, continue to do 50% water changes every day, yes every day, until you can return the fish.

[wijnands]

3 gallon is like, 10 liters? Would make a nice shrimp tank. I'd plant it and cycle it very carefully and start thinking about which shrimp.

[bettaboy691]

3 gallons is cr*p for any fish IMO.
fish like bettas and dwarf puffers need 5 gallons in my eyes
is the 3gallons heated and filtered. it need to be.
personally, follow the advice before, and cycle the tank, etc and get some shrimp. its all its good for. dont want to sound rude, but its for the best.shrimp tanks still need to be heated and planted, a sponge filter will do.
well maintained shrimp tanks can look ace, mine does, lol
read up about different shrimp species

[Iron Man]

First of all those gold fish need 50 gallons colectivley. Second of all, did you cycle your tank? 50 gal for 3 small feeder fish? So then you are telling me that its the fish causing the problem. As for cycling the tank, please read my first post again. I explained absolutely everything in it entirety. Oh I did leave one small thing out. There is a small filter.Thanks again

[Iron Man]

Alright, where to start...

As the others said, yes, you need MUCH more room for the goldfish, as they are very dirty. A 3g tank can't hold much more than a tetra or two, or maybe a betta.

That chinese algae eater will stop eating algae after it gets a whiff of fish food. And they get real mean as they mature. They also grow to like 6 inches

Shut the lights off and leave them off. Fish don't need anything more than ambient lighting for a day/night cycle. You don't have any live plants, so a 20 watt CF is pointless.

My recommendations? Get a much larger tank or return all of the fish. None of them will last much longer in a 3g tank. The water is still cloudy because the bacteria can't deal with the ludicrous amount of waste produces by the 4 fish in a small tank. Until then, continue to do 50% water changes every day, yes every day, until you can return the fish.

Wait. I do have live plants. thats why I put the florescent light in. does this change anything?

[Iron Man]

Cycling a tank is where you put like one fish in and feed it and let the bacteria balance out right?

[Iron Man]

3 gallons is cr*p for any fish IMO.
fish like bettas and dwarf puffers need 5 gallons in my eyes
is the 3gallons heated and filtered. it need to be.
personally, follow the advice before, and cycle the tank, etc and get some shrimp. its all its good for. dont want to sound rude, but its for the best.shrimp tanks still need to be heated and planted, a sponge filter will do.
well maintained shrimp tanks can look ace, mine does, lol
read up about different shrimp species

If 3 gal. is no good, then why are they sold in pet shops?

[Chrona]

Wait. I do have live plants. thats why I put the florescent light in. does this change anything?

Those 3 feeders produce a lot more waste than you think, not to mention they will physically outgrow your tank (as will the CAE) In a few weeks they won't be able to turn around without running into each other so why not use the 40g now? Feeders grow up to be well over 8-9 inches. When getting new fish, you need to keep in mind adult size, not the size they are at now.

If you have live plants, try to get a lower wattage bulb, like 10 watts max. Higher wattage like in your case requires CO2 injection and trace supplement

[Chrona]

If 3 gal. is no good, then why are they sold in pet shops?

Why are bettas kept in bowls? Why do a quarter of the fish in a typical store have some kind of disease? Just because they sell them does not mean they are good. A fish store is out to make money, not fish happy or healthy. That being said, 3g tanks work fine for shrimp.

[Chrona]

Cycling a tank is where you put like one fish in and feed it and let the bacteria balance out right?

Yes....that is fish cycling...but if you are producing way too much waste (and with a small filter to boot) the bacteria population won't catch up.

[Iron Man]

Those 3 feeders produce a lot more waste than you think, not to mention they will physically outgrow your tank (as will the CAE) In a few weeks they won't be able to turn around without running into each other so why not use the 40g now? Feeders grow up to be well over 8-9 inches.

If you have live plants, try to get a lower wattage bulb, like 10 watts max. Higher wattage like in your case requires CO2 injection and trace supplement
I'd love to use a 40 gal tank. I would if I still had it. Its gone thanks to my ex-wife. All I have now is this 3 gal tank my sister gave me.

[Iron Man]

Why are bettas kept in bowls? Why do a quarter of the fish in a typical store have some kind of disease? Just because they sell them does not mean they are good. A fish store is out to make money, not fish happy or healthy. That being said, 3g tanks work fine for shrimp.

Okay thanks. I've never heard of a shrimp tank before. Are we talking about fresh or salt water? And where can I get more info on this?

[Chrona]

Freshwater. Amano, cherry, and ghost shrimp are popular choices. As for info, google is probably your best bet, although there isn't that much you need to know about them. Download the free ebook (on left side bar) and read up on fishless cycling. After your tank is mature, then add shrimp. They aren't too particular as long as the tank is fully cycled unless you are trying to breed them.

[Chrona]

As for lighting, if you can't get a lower wattage bulb, try cutting down the photoperiod to 2x 4 hour periods with at least an hour in between.

[Iron Man]

As for lighting, if you can't get a lower wattage bulb, try cutting down the photoperiod to 2x 4 hour periods with at least an hour in between.

Here is my tank. Wont my plant stop growing if I use less light? As you can see from the pictures here, they are doing quit well. They are shooting out roots like crazy. There are more roots to see if I took another pic from a different angle.
This should be good enough for now though. So what do you think? I've been leaving the light on for 12 hours. It's a 13 watt florescent bulb that puts out the same amount of light as a 60 incandescent bulb.
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[Chrona]

Anacharis will grow just fine in lower light. A combined 8 hour photoperiod is plenty for plants, ESPECIALLY with a 13 watter sitting over only 3 gallons. The idea is to kill off your algae. Algae, unlike plants, are very slow to start using light, compared to plants that can kick into photosynthesis within 20 minutes. Thus, but having a midday "siesta" you aren't depriving your plants of anything while depriving the algae. That being said, you still need to do a 24 hour blackout as it looks like you have green water. The most important thing though, is to return those fish.

[Abbeys_Mom]

If you start a shrimp tank, do not use any of the larger shrimp. Anything shrimp over an inch won't have room. I had a Rock Shrimp in a 2.5g and he jumped out. So, also keep a tight fitting complete lid on your tank.

[Iron Man]

Anacharis will grow just fine in lower light. A combined 8 hour photoperiod is plenty for plants, ESPECIALLY with a 13 watter sitting over only 3 gallons. The idea is to kill off your algae. Algae, unlike plants, are very slow to start using light, compared to plants that can kick into photosynthesis within 20 minutes. Thus, but having a midday "siesta" you aren't depriving your plants of anything while depriving the algae. That being said, you still need to do a 24 hour blackout as it looks like you have green water. The most important thing though, is to return those fish.

I tried to return the fish but Petsmart wont take them back.
I guess I'll just flush the goldfish and keep the lges eater all by himself.

[cocoa_pleco]

DONT FLUSH THE FISH! its screws up the ecosystem and isnt fair to the fish. Place a local ad, or go to another lfs and just even give them away. I remember after i went on vacation 5 months ago i had major ammonia and couldnt keep the fish so i just told my lfs that i was going on a long vacation and they can have my fish. DO NOT FLUSH THEM! Live flushed fish can live in the sewer for above 48 hours.

[Iron Man]

DONT FLUSH THE FISH! its screws up the ecosystem and isnt fair to the fish. Place a local ad, or go to another lfs and just even give them away. I remember after i went on vacation 5 months ago i had major ammonia and couldnt keep the fish so i just told my lfs that i was going on a long vacation and they can have my fish. DO NOT FLUSH THEM! Live flushed fish can live in the sewer for above 48 hours.
What is/are "Ifs"? Also is it really that important to worry about 2 $0.12 fish? It not like they have they cognitive reasoning and a thinking ability. I read somewhere that goldfish have a memory span of 3 seconds. I believe it too! Have you ever watched when a goldfish has a turd float past it? The swim over real fast and try to eat it and the spit it out and then try to eat it again, they're like "Oh Whats that??? *gulp* Eeww thats poop! *spit*, hey whats that floating?? *gulp* Eeww thats poop! *spit* Oh look there's something floating! *gulp* Eeww thats poop! *spit*". They are almost like insects. Every single one of the same species has the exact same personality. I doubt the ecosystem will be affected any. fish die when you flush them dont they? There's more then just sewage down there. All the household cleaning supplies are down there too. Thats got to kill'em pretty quick right? Dont worry, I havent flushed them yet. I am an animal lover so I'd like to hear your opinion on this.

[Chrona]

Why does it matter? Because you bought the fish, without the proper equipment, knowledge, and without bothering to doing any research, apparently. You, yes, you, put them in this position, so it is your responsibility to correct it. A severely mentally ill patient also has nearly no cognitive ability. Do we just flush them too?

Fish are in the animal kingdom, by the way. What is your definition of animals? Cute and fuzzy?

[Drumachine09]

You owe it to your fish to keep them alive. Lets put this into perspective here. Lets say someone kept humans as pets (god i hope not). And lets say he bought you and two other people, and kept them, essentially in a refrigerator box. Thats bad enough. You dont deserve that. Then lets say he cant take care of you, so he flushes you. Not right either. I am not a fan of golfish really, and infact i use them for bait, but the point is, they dont deserve that kind of treatment just because you goofed.



And i do belive mythbusters BUSTED the 3 second memory myth, so thats out the window too.

[Owen Stubbs]

Iron Man - there are some remarks here that you might find offensive. I have not been a member of this site for long, and have my own share of problems, but I wanted to add that I think people are sincerely trying to assist you, but they don't want to see any mistreatment of fish, provided that mistreatment can be avoided.

The aquarium hobby has some very loyal enthusiasts - and I have personally been the beneficiary of those people when it comes to their knowledge and experience - they have nothing more to gain than the satisfaction of knowing that they helped someone else.

Hopefully, these far more knowledeable people than I will help guide you to a solution that meets, or exceeds, your expectations.

With regards to your need, or desire, to remove your goldfish, maybe you can simply offer to give them back to your LFS (local fish store). If they will not take them, maybe a grade school, hospital, or nursing home has a tank that will happily accept them. Maybe there is some kid down the street that you could encourage to pursue this hobby by donating the fish, and helping them get things going.

If none of those things work, and you have exhausted your efforts, then do what you feel appropriate. Just keep moving forward in creating a nice habitat for whatever will ultimate live in your desktop ecosystem. Just my opinion.

[cocoa_pleco]

lfs= local fish store

[cocoa_pleco]

and yeah, we dont mean to be mean. Flushing a fish to us is like puting unwanted puppies in a garbage bag and throwing them into a lake.

[Iron Man]

Why does it matter? Because you bought the fish, without the proper equipment, knowledge, and without bothering to doing any research, apparently. You, yes, you, put them in this position, so it is your responsibility to correct it. A severely mentally ill patient also has nearly no cognitive ability. Do we just flush them too?
Fish are in the animal kingdom, by the way. What is your definition of animals? Cute and fuzzy?

Look, I didnt even expect these fish to live okay? I was just using them to cycle my tank. But for some strange reason they lived. Like I said before, I had a 40 gal tank. I did the same thing with that when I set it up. Almost all of the goldfish died with that tank. But I had a garter snake and he got the remaining fish. Goldfish die. Thats why they call them "feeder fish".I expected the same results.
I flushed one when I put the algae eater in. Believe me. I actually felt bad about it. It bothers me to think about it.

And yes I know fish are animals too. Did you read my last post? I said I was an ANIMAL lover and that I'd wait for answers. Hello???

Comparing goldfish to people is unfair. The fact of the matter is no amount of animal life can have the same value of even one human life. Are you familiar with the bible? The Jews had to make animal sacrifices to atone for their sins. They made these sacrifices continually through out their life time because no amount of animal life can equal a human life. Jesus' death is why we no longer have to sacrifice animals to receive forgiveness. Jesus bought back what Adam lost.With all that said, I'll say it again. Mentally handicapped or not, comparing goldfish to people is unfair.

Now, with that rant out of the way, how about this? I have a creek near by would it be so bad to release them there? I understand that there are government laws that prevents pet shops from selling animals that would be damaging to the local ecosystem if they escaped. I'm looking for the easiest way out here. I'm disabled and I don't have a car. See where Im coming from now?

And thank you Mr.Owen Stubbs. I applicate the polite answer. I just dont understand these other folks. I came here for help and got verbally assaulted. Did I say something wrong? I'm not unreasonable. Thats why I've been asking questions and responding. I've already implement some of the advice too. I turned off the light and did another water change. Geez, you folks make it sound like I was about to set a puppy on fire. :confused:

[Chrona]

Alright, well, let me apologize for my comments earlier. When I read your response, it seemed sarcastic to me, which is why I got all riled up. I was not saying that humans were on the same level as fish, merely that cognitive ability shouldn't be related to "flushability." As you did purchase the fish (using them to cycle a tank with the intention of throwing them out afterwards is not really that ethical either as you can use ammonia and achieve much quicker and effective results), it should be your responsibility to take care of them, regardless of whether or not they lived. And it should be noted that when a feeder fish is eaten, it dies within seconds, but ammonia poisoning kills it over the course of several days.

That being said, there are no laws (that I've heard of) that govern what fish stores can sell people (with respect to being damaging if released to the wild), which is why many stores have invasive species of plants or snails for sale. It IS illegal to ship some species or release them in various states. I do not believe goldfish are considered an invasive species anywhere, but unless you are able to release them into a large pond, I doubt they would survive in any case (this in no way is me condoning releasing anything in the aquarium business into the ecosystem). Are you sure the local fish store won't take them back? It would, after all, be free fish for them. As Owen Stubbs suggested, you could also put up an ad (most newspapers let you put a small ad for free) for free fish, or give them to a neighbor with a sufficient tank.

[Iron Man]

Yes...a pond *ponders* *rubs chin* That just might work. I think I'll place a freecycle ad first. If that doesnt work then into the pond the go.

Sorry about the misunderstanding about the sarcasm. I was trying to be funny about the floating turds and the fish. I guess it didnt work.

Ammonia to cycle huh? I had no idea. I shall have to look into that.
Ammonia takes several days to kill? Thats ammonia in the sewer right? Now I feel worse about flushing them.

I have to agree with you about how it should be my responsibility to take care of them, regardless of whether or not they lived. I feel the same way about other animals too. I worked at a kennel in a veterinarians office and all the time people would bring their dogs in to be put to sleep because they didnt want them anymore. I hated it because I had to restrain the animals while the vet injected them with an overdose of Ketamine. It makes my heart hurt to think about it. I ended up quitting because of this.

Anyway thanks for the answers and advice.

[Chrona]

Yes...a pond *ponders* *rubs chin* That just might work. I think I'll place a freecycle ad first. If that doesnt work then into the pond the go.

Sorry about the misunderstanding about the sarcasm. I was trying to be funny about the floating turds and the fish. I guess it didnt work.

Ammonia to cycle huh? I had no idea. I shall have to look into that.
Ammonia takes several days to kill? Thats ammonia in the sewer right? Now I feel worse about flushing them.

I have to agree with you about how it should be my responsibility to take care of them, regardless of whether or not they lived. I feel the same way about other animals too. I worked at a kennel in a veterinarians office and all the time people would bring their dogs in to be put to sleep because they didnt want them anymore. I hated it because I had to restrain the animals while the vet injected them with an overdose of Ketamine. It makes my heart hurt to think about it. I ended up quitting because of this.

Anyway thanks for the answers and advice.

Depending on concentration and the pH, ammonia takes anywhere from a few minutes to several days to kill. Usually the fish can fight it off for a while, but soon falls prey to disease (if the ammonia doesn't kill the fish outright)

Yes, fishless cycling uses pure ammonia to build up the bacteria population required to process fish waste. This way, you can introduce almost all of your fish at once (instead of in small groups to give bacteria a chance to build up again), plus it's usually twice or three times as fast as fish cycling, since you can crank the heat way up. And of course, no fish are hurt in the process :)

[Owen Stubbs]

Iron Man started this tank 2 months ago according to his original post. Before he starts over at square one with ammonia, isn't it likely that all the bacteria he needs is likely present? Could this cloudiness simply be overfeeding, overpopulation, and algae? I wonder if the problem might begin to solve itself if he backed off on the light, and reduced his goldfish population down to one, or preferrable just the algae eater?

Another thing Iron Man - most local fish stores (LFS) will test your water if you do not want the expense of your own testing supplies. Use a ziploc baggie with a few ounces of water in it and take it in for analysis. The results might really help people here lead you in the right direction.

[Chrona]

Iron Man started this tank 2 months ago according to his original post. Before he starts over at square one with ammonia, isn't it likely that all the bacteria he needs is likely present? Could this cloudiness simply be overfeeding, overpopulation, and algae? I wonder if the problem might begin to solve itself if he backed off on the light, and reduced his goldfish population down to one, or preferrable just the algae eater?

Another thing Iron Man - most local fish stores (LFS) will test your water if you do not want the expense of your own testing supplies. Use a ziploc baggie with a few ounces of water in it and take it in for analysis. The results might really help people here lead you in the right direction.

Good point. I didn't intend to make it sound like you SHOULD use ammonia at this stage, but just wanted to answer your question about it. As it stands, it's likely there simply isn't enough surface area for bacteria to colonize to cope with the waste being put out by the 4 fish. If you reduce the bioload (just keep the CAE), then the cloudiness will go away. If it was a green cloudiness, then shutting off the lights for 24 - 48 hours will take care of it.

[Iron Man]

Good point. I didn't intend to make it sound like you SHOULD use ammonia at this stage, but just wanted to answer your question about it. As it stands, it's likely there simply isn't enough surface area for bacteria to colonize to cope with the waste being put out by the 4 fish. If you reduce the bioload (just keep the CAE), then the cloudiness will go away. If it was a green cloudiness, then shutting off the lights for 24 - 48 hours will take care of it.
Well' I got no responce from the freecycle group, so into the pond they went. Well actually it was a small creek that widened out to about fifty feet. One fish stayed in the same spot I let it go in. The other one swam around in a small circle a bit then darted off tward the center. It looked like a happy fish. The other one didnt look too good though. Oh well. I got to see a male and female mallard duck too. And a strange brown bug that had legs like a grass hopper. It was making a lot of noise too. Thats how I found it. It was up high on a tall blade of grass. I was going to catch it but when I got about a foot and a half away, it stopped all the noise it was making and jumped down into the deep grass. I wonder what kind of bug it is? Any way, I just thought I'd let you all know what I ended up doing with the fish.

[cocoa_pleco]

woah, not a real pond. It screws up the ecosystem!

[Owen Stubbs]

Iron Man - I think you need to avoid releasing fish/plants/living things intended for aquariums into a natural habitat. Odds are, they are already dead, and hopefully consumed by a resident predator. However, you really never know. Introducing these fish into a natural pond or river brings all kinds of potential bad things along with it.

As much as you were encouraged to save the fish as much as possible, my personal belief is that they would have been better off buried in a garden, or mulched through a food processor. Might get flamed for that, but it is the best I can come up with under the circumstances of my limited experience.

However, let's not get caught up in the past. What are your plans now that you need to move forward, and how can the experienced people here (not me) help?

[Drumachine09]

Iron Man - I think you need to avoid releasing fish/plants/living things intended for aquariums into a natural habitat. Odds are, they are already dead, and hopefully consumed by a resident predator. However, you really never know. Introducing these fish into a natural pond or river brings all kinds of potential bad things along with it.

As much as you were encouraged to save the fish as much as possible, my personal belief is that they would have been better off buried in a garden, or mulched through a food processor. Might get flamed for that, but it is the best I can come up with under the circumstances of my limited experience.

However, let's not get caught up in the past. What are your plans now that you need to move forward, and how can the experienced people here (not me) help?

Chances are, if there are catfish such as channels, blues, or especially flatheads, those golfish would have been eaten in minutes. They are the best catfish bait i have ever run across.

[Chrona]

Eh, I dunno about mulching or burying. Usually it's via freezer or clove oil + vodka

[cocoa_pleco]

one way i use is bury the fish in snow. it was quick.

However, now i use the freezer way. The vodka-clove oil was kinda sad because in october when i used it on a betta i could see him half-awake from the clove oil, then used vodka. However, i drank some straight vodka after. Its a good way to have a excuse for a drink

[Drumachine09]

If they are small enough, you can grip them behind the gill plate and then give them a good hard flick with your middle finger. It kills them instantly. I havent tried it on aquarium fish, but it works on pest species like white perch.

[cocoa_pleco]

sounds like a plan!

my girlfriends dad actually knows a guy who has some kind of drug that you give to big fish like oscars, and it kills them instantly and painlessly if theyre badly sick.

[Iron Man]

woah, not a real pond. It screws up the ecosystem!

Well, Chrona told me it was okay. So go complain to him/her.
Besides if it were that big of a deal I think there would be laws prohibiting the sales of these animals. I know they have these laws be cause where I live it is illegal to own a hedgehog or a ferret.

[kimmers318]

Okay, Ironman, the deed is done, how about we move forward? For the future, it is more humane to use the clove oil method or the freezer method to euthanize fish. Put your fish in a small bowl, dump some ice cubes in, the instant cold slows them way down and put in the freezer, it may not be the best method, but for those of us who haven't yet found clove oil, it works as painlessly as possible. I don't think it is right to euthanize a healthy animal, but sometimes it is a better option than others. All those dogs you were so upset to see euthanized might not have had another option......left to run loose....dropped off at a shelter.......or killed in a less humane way, not good possibilities. At least with the vet doing it it was painless. I had to have Dad's cat euthanized because she would not adapt to households with more than one person, or with other pets and I couldn't find her a home. Although she had never actually bitten anyone her attitude was equivalent to Church from Pet Cemetery, and strangely enough, she looked just like him.
Anyway, I have gotten off topic. Chances are now that the goldfish are gone, there is plenty of bacteria to sustain the CAE, but the tank won't sustain the CAE for life I don't believe. It will need something larger than a 3 gal.
3 gal tanks are quite small and don't stay stable which makes them very hard to deal with. They are cute as heck though aren't they???!!! As for shrimp, personal experience here, not a good idea in that small of a tank either. Recommended is believe it or not, 10 gallons. I recently purchased 9 little shrimp, and had them in my 10 gal. Then someone gave me a 2 gal tank and I thought, heck, would be great for my shrimp. It didn't work, shrimp are highly sensitive to levels of ammonia that don't even read on the test kit and I had 3 climb thru the water flow back into the tank and die in the filter. They were not getting sucked up in the intake as I had that covered with fine mesh. Each time I found a dead shrimp I tested the water and had 0=ammonia 0=nitrites and 5-10 nitrates. Either they were kamikazee shrimp, or they were reacting to something in the water. From here on out it will be a snail breeding tank, and maybe I will let the kids put the ADF's in there.
A 10 gal set up is not that expensive, and even a 20 gal isn't too bad. Save for a bigger tank and you will have much better luck. A larger snail that is more attractive ( I think nerites might fit the bill) might be cool, but do some research first. I don't know much about pet snails around here as snails are used for food in my tanks!!!
Good luck with your tank and finding something to keep in it. If you pick yourself up a liquid test kit you can start testing the water and see if the bacterial colonies are keeping up with the CAE only in there for now. As he gets larger, it probably won't.

[Chrona]

Well, Chrona told me it was okay. So go complain to him/her.
Besides if it were that big of a deal I think there would be laws prohibiting the sales of these animals. I know they have these laws be cause where I live it is illegal to own a hedgehog or a ferret.

I never said it was ok, I said it was not illegal. I even mentioned that I don't condone it. The thing is that the aquarium hobby is still really just in it's infancy, so we don't know what kind of diseases or parasites fish can introduce into an ecosystem.

[Iron Man]

Jesus Christ! First you people tell me that I'm a horrible unethical person if I flush my fish down the toilet! Now you are telling me that I'm destroying the planet because I released these fish to the wild!?! And finally you people are telling me that I should have KILLED my fish?????????????? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Soooooooooo,what you are now saying is that I would have been better off if killed these fish via hypothermia, poison, puree,and or bludgeoning to death by repeated flicking?????

Sonofabitch! Thats it! That does it! I'm bald now! Completely bald! Because I just ripped all the hair outa my FRIGGIN HEAD!

I will say thank you to kimmers because that was the only sane response I got. I'm still bald though!
You people are the biggest bunch of weirdos I've ever met.

[Chrona]

Jesus Christ! First you people tell me that I'm a horrible unethical person if I flush my fish down the toilet! Now you are telling me that I'm destroying the planet because I released these fish to the wild!?! And finally you people are telling me that I should have KILLED my fish?????????????? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
Soooooooooo,what you are now saying is that I would have been better off if killed these fish via hypothermia, poison, puree,and or bludgeoning to death by repeated flicking?????

Sonofabitch! Thats it! That does it! I'm bald now! Completely bald! Because I just ripped all the hair outa my FRIGGIN HEAD!

I will say thank you to kimmers because that was the only sane response I got. I'm still bald though!
You people are the biggest bunch of weirdos I've ever met.

Not completely weird ;)

Clove oil is a sedative for fish, and vodka kills them before they wake up. Euthanasia is an accepted means for dealing with extremely sick fish that cannot be cured via medications. Notsomuch for unwanted fish.

What is done is done, I was just saying that there may have been better ways to do it. But as Kimmers said, since you've already released them, it's a moot point and we should move on. But please don't misquote me :P

[kimmers318]

It's okay Ironman....your hair will grow back:thumb: Sometimes we all get a little carried away when it comes to our fish, and sometimes we even get misunderstood as it is hard to relay tone of voice and body language thru typing.
Have you considered what you might do from here on out with your little tank? How is the CAE holding up? A couple of water changes should put the cloudiness to rights and a little less light should help out with the greenish water, although you may need to do a black out for it.
Keep us posted on the positive:1luvu:

[cocoa_pleco]

its not illegal to let fish away, but the ecosystem gets screwed up since goldfish arent found in rivers naturally.

In the early 1900's, some rivers got screwed up because some people went and imported cabomba and other fish and plants to north amereica

[bettaboy691]

i think this thread has got out of hand, it was started as what can i put in a 3 gallon to a disscusion on how to kill fish and an argument between members.
maybe we all should take a step back and see it from other peoples views.
i agree that flushing any fish thats alive is cruel and inhumane.a dead one it doesnt matter. euthatising any well, unwanted fish is also cruel i think, if its not wanted, sell it, or give it away. and next time, buy fish your wanting to keep, do some research before hand.
if its sick and not going to be better with meds. then think about it.
releasing fish into the wild is a bad thing to do, it could be introducing a disease into the ecosystem. and the fish is probally likely to died anyway.
feeder goldfish is the term used for common goldfish, usally used to feed to bigger fish. just because it has been given this name, doesnt give us the right to treat it with less respect.
all fish, and goldfish are living creatures and deserve our respect and well treatment. just because it says in the bible that the jews sacraficed animals, doesnt make it right either. no proof of the bible stories being true, and just because the jews did it, doesnt mean we all need to hurt animals.
fish are still living animals, you wouldnt kill a puppy because it wasnt needed, so why a fish?

[Iron Man]

It's okay Ironman....your hair will grow back:thumb: Sometimes we all get a little carried away when it comes to our fish, and sometimes we even get misunderstood as it is hard to relay tone of voice and body language thru typing.
Have you considered what you might do from here on out with your little tank? How is the CAE holding up? A couple of water changes should put the cloudiness to rights and a little less light should help out with the greenish water, although you may need to do a black out for it.
Keep us posted on the positive:1luvu:

I hope my last post didnt offend anyone.What you saw there was me getting frustrated and confused and trying to make a joke out of it. It would seem that kimmers got a laugh out of it.The CAE appears to be doing fine. The water is now clear. I have two last questions. I'm thinking about giving the CAE away and putting a Betta in the small tank instead. Betta's do not like moving water right? So should I remove the filter?

[bettaboy691]

bettas dont like moving water. dont remove the filter, replace it with a less powerful one.maybe a sponge filter.
although, i personally think 3g is too small for a betta. shrimps are a better choice and look fantastic.

[Iron Man]

bettas dont like moving water. dont remove the filter, replace it with a less powerful one.maybe a sponge filter.
although, i personally think 3g is too small for a betta. shrimps are a better choice and look fantastic.

In this picture here, you can see my filter. [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] It was the smallest one I could find. It doesn't even have a motor. It uses air bubbles to pull the water through the filter. Neat huh? Is this the kind you are talking about?

[Chrona]

That should work fine for a betta tank. You need a heater too (can't see if you have one from the pic)

[Drumachine09]

I hope my last post didnt offend anyone.What you saw there was me getting frustrated and confused and trying to make a joke out of it. It would seem that kimmers got a laugh out of it.The CAE appears to be doing fine. The water is now clear. I have two last questions. I'm thinking about giving the CAE away and putting a Betta in the small tank instead. Betta's do not like moving water right? So should I remove the filter?

Your jokes always come of quite harsh and offensive. Your sense of humor sure is odd.

[bettaboy691]

it should work for the betta. like chrona said, a heater is needed too.
just to say, and not meaning to be rude, give the tank a good scrub before added a betta. and the water needs to be mature too, bettas cant cycle a tank.

[Drumachine09]

it should work for the betta. like chrona said, a heater is needed too.
just to say, and not meaning to be rude, give the tank a good scrub before added a betta. and the water needs to be mature too, bettas cant cycle a tank.


Ummm mature water?

[cocoa_pleco]

theres no such thing as mature water, just mature gravel and filters

[Drumachine09]

I think he messed up. lol XD

[cocoa_pleco]

and the water needs to be mature too, bettas cant cycle a tank.


HAHA! quoted the mistake! i often forget, no offense bettaboy. I often make dumb mistakes too

[kimmers318]

Did you ever get a water test kit? Now would be a good time so that you can find out if you have the necessary bacterial colony to handle to CAE. The fact that your cloudy water cleared up is definitely a good sign.
Everyone can debate til they are blue in the face about what can/cannot go into a 3 gal tank. Whichever way you decide to go, you do want to make sure the tank is fully cycled. I personally think a betta would do fine in a 3 gal, others obviously don't. As for the current from the filter, slow it down as much as possible, if using an air pump to power the filter slow the air flow, if using a HOB or internal type that has mechanical filtration also a nice bushy plant under the water flow helps to divert it. My betta in a 5 gal though can frequently be seen laying in the plant that is under the water flow to try to slow it down:confused: .....go figure.
As for shrimp, yes, there is plenty of room, but what I found in my recent experience is that they will try to escape smaller areas. I had 3 shrimp climb into the flow of water going back into the tank and get killed in the filter, they were apparently thrown into it by the biowheel. I tested water parameters and got 0=ammonia 0=nitrite 5-10 nitrates, so if there was anything in the water making them want to escape it was undetectable. This apparently is common in the smaller tanks. I lost none when they were in my 10 gal tank, but they kept getting "lost" so I was hoping to be able to see them better in the 2 gal.

[Iron Man]

Yeah, I will take some of the water to the pet shop for testing. The water is crystal clear with the goldfish gone but the CAE is acting odd. It's not going around the tank and cleaning like he was before. Now he's swimming really fast in circles.

[*Sarah*]

I once had a goldfish i didn't want anymore, and my mom has one of those decorative ponds in her back yard. I gave her the fish about 4 years ago, and the little bugger is still alive and has outlived some of her "pond" fish lol! Happy as can be that little guy, his name is Clyde.

[bettaboy691]

just to clear the mistake i made eariler, i meant mature filter, gravel etc. bettas arent strong enough usally to survive the cycling process, like some tetras are. you will need to keep the filter bacteria alive what ever you do.
as much as i hate to see bettas in small 3 gallon tanks, i will accept you are going to put one in there whatever, so instead of arguing with you about ti being too small, i will try to advise you on how to look after it well and make it as happy as it can be.
a heater is still needed, but good on you for taking the goldfish back.they just werent suited for that tank. not sure why your CAE is acting funny, maybe the cooler water is taking effect, or is the water quality poor? it will be easier to tell when the results from the water test are posted. i once bought 2 CAE when i started out ( we all make mistakes )and they started swimming around faster as they grew, maybe they are maturing and started to get aggressive, needless to say, i took them back.
give the tank a good scrub aswell, use an algea scraper from the store, or use a sponge (like the ones for washing dishes, but never used and not scented) and get your hands wet.
you will also need to get some live plants, ferns and mosses are easy to grow. the plant you have now is coldwater and will often break up and make a mess, remove it now i suggest.

[Iron Man]

Well, I dont know what is wrong with the CAE. I've had them before and none of them acted like this. He's going crazy. I'm just getting over the flu, so I havent been able to get the water checked at the pet shop. His weirdness started right after I took the goldfish out.He keeps swimming from top to bottom to top to bottom to top to bottom to top....It drives me crazy watching him. I havent seen him eat either. The food gets a rotten and I have to pull it out. It looks like it had mold growing on it.

Here is the little culprit taking a rest only to resume his endless swimming cycle.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Here I something I wanted to say about my Betta. Generally I had to change his water every couple of days or so or his water would get discolored and stinky. Now do remember the Cycle bacteria I was telling you about earlier? I put some of that in with the Betta and now that water doesn't get smelly or discolored or cloudy. All I've had to do since is just replace the water that evaporates.

Now as for putting the Betta in a big aquarium, I don't think thats really necessary is it? In the wild they live in the standing or slow moving waters of the rice paddies and flood plains of Southeast Asia. Those conditions are pretty shallow arent they? I had mine in a small bowl at first and he didnt move much. He looked depressed. So I moved him to a vase with a plastic plant in it. Now he's a lot more active. He seems happy.
Here's a picture of him on my moms counter if you want to see it.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Chrona]

The main issue is that in those rice paddies, there are so many plants to filter the water and it's in such a warm climate that heating and filtration is not an issue. In a small bowl or a vase without flourishing live plants or filtration, waste will build up quickly, and the temperature will settle below room temp, which, unless you keep your house veeeery warm, isn't enough. 3-5 gallons is fine for a betta, if you can spare it. As a side note, perfectly clear water can be deadly as well, since ammonia by itself doesn't cloud water. I don't have any faith in Cycle in terms of it actually helping with the cycling process, but it does help break down solid waste into ammonia (which is even worse than the solid waste). Without a filter, and because it is still water, the fish will suffer, as they are swimming in ammonia, which causes permanent gill damage and death after a period of time.

As for the CAE, it sounds like he is under quite a bit of stress. I would recommend doing 50% water changes every day or two to get the waste down until you can get the water tested.

[Iron Man]

I'll do it.

[naiku]

Well, I dont know what is wrong with the CAE. I've had them before and none of them acted like this. He's going crazy. I'm just getting over the flu, so I havent been able to get the water checked at the pet shop. His weirdness started right after I took the goldfish out.He keeps swimming from top to bottom to top to bottom to top to bottom to top....It drives me crazy watching him. I havent seen him eat either. The food gets a rotten and I have to pull it out. It looks like it had mold growing on it.


Your CAE sounds like he is acting how my goldfish did before they died, he most likely is suffering from exposure to ammonia (this killed my goldfish). I hope he survives.

If the worst happens, and he does die.......... can I just suggest you give your entire tank set up away to someone? several people have given you good advice, most times you throw it back at them with a rude post, then later when people take offense to your rudeness you try to pass it off as a joke. Reading your first post that you "got rid" of one of your goldfish had me worried, you then planned to flush them down the toilet, and ultimately released them into the wild........... I think you could have put in far more effort to give those fish away.

Sorry if this post offends you, but someone had to say it.

[Iron Man]

I dont have the slightest idea what you are talking about. You are obviously misunderstanding. How have I thrown advice back at someone with a rude comment? Please explain. You said someone needed to say it so go ahead and say it.

I believe it started with this post where I said
What is/are "Ifs"? Also is it really that important to worry about 2 $0.12 fish? It not like they have they cognitive reasoning and a thinking ability. I read somewhere that goldfish have a memory span of 3 seconds. I believe it too! Have you ever watched when a goldfish has a turd float past it? The swim over real fast and try to eat it and the spit it out and then try to eat it again, they're like "Oh Whats that??? *gulp* Eeww thats poop! *spit*, hey whats that floating?? *gulp* Eeww thats poop! *spit* Oh look there's something floating! *gulp* Eeww thats poop! *spit*". They are almost like insects. Every single one of the same species has the exact same personality. I doubt the ecosystem will be affected any. fish die when you flush them dont they? There's more then just sewage down there. All the household cleaning supplies are down there too. Thats got to kill'em pretty quick right? Dont worry, I havent flushed them yet.]I am an animal lover so I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
As it has already been discussed, Some members thought I was being sarcastic. If I was, I honestly didn't mean to. This was how I felt so I said it. I also said, if you don't recall,"Dont worry, I havent flushed them yet.I am an animal lover so I'd like to hear your opinion on this." I was not being unreasonable. I think some people were just being too sensitive about a few goldfish. Perhaps they realized this because as you'll notice they later said that I should kill my fish instead. They gave me several methods too. Am I wrong to get confused and maybe a little frustrated?Or maybe I was too sensitive.I do believe I apologized if I offended any one, also. Perhaps, you should mind your own business.

[Chrona]

Yes, we have been over this, all parties are forgiven *grants Pope's blessings*

How are the fish doing btw? Any changes?

[Iron Man]

Thank you Chrona. "*grants Pope's blessing*" Thats a good one! I'll have to use it some time.

To answer your question, this why I came back after all. I purchased some water test kits. Turns out that the water had dangerous levels of ammonia on it. I purchased and used chemicals that claim to "neutralize the harmful effects of ammonia". The fish calmed down considerably but did not stop the erratic behavior. Is there a possible remedy? Even though I dont want to, do you think that I might have to remove the live plants? They are messy.

[Iron Man]

After watching the fish for a while, it would appear that things are back to normal. It must have just taken several days for the neutralizer to work. Or maybe the fish needed time to recover.

Thanks all, for the help.

[Chrona]

After watching the fish for a while, it would appear that things are back to normal. It must have just taken several days for the neutralizer to work. Or maybe the fish needed time to recover.

Thanks all, for the help.

You need to be careful using the ammonia remover liquids, because they take away the ammonia needed to cycle your tank as well. You should see if you can get some Amrid (or something made of Zeolite) which traps ammonia, but still makes it available to the bacteria. That way, you would not have to worry about ammonia spikes (although you will get a nitrite spike)

[cocoa_pleco]

The best way to get rid of ammonia is water changes. I too used to always go straight for ammo-lock or biological tank clearers, but now i learnt that water changes are the best way.

[Iron Man]

After watching the fish a little more closely, I have to retract my last statement. He is still exhibiting erratic behavior, though not like he was before. Do you think he is permanently brain damaged? Water changes work huh? I just get sick and tired of changing the water every two or three days. I dont understand why this tank is being so difficult. My 40 gallon tank was a joy to have, it was very stable and my fish lived a LOOOOOONG time. Some of my fish got so old that they developed cataracts infact even my African dwarf frog lived happily in there for years. I accident smash him while I was cleaning the gravel. Damnit! That still pisses me off.
Anyway, I just purchased and installed a small water heater made specifically for 2 to 5 gallon tanks. I got a thermometer too. You think the heater will help stabilize the tank?

[Tails]

Some of my fish got so old that they developed cataracts infact even my African dwarf frog lived happily in there for years. I accident smash him while I was cleaning the gravel. Damnit! That still pisses me off.


Gosh thats horrible! :( :(

[Chrona]

After watching the fish a little more closely, I have to retract my last statement. He is still exhibiting erratic behavior, though not like he was before. Do you think he is permanently brain damaged? Water changes work huh? I just get sick and tired of changing the water every two or three days. I dont understand why this tank is being so difficult. My 40 gallon tank was a joy to have, it was very stable and my fish lived a LOOOOOONG time. Some of my fish got so old that they developed cataracts infact even my African dwarf frog lived happily in there for years. I accident smash him while I was cleaning the gravel. Damnit! That still pisses me off.
Anyway, I just purchased and installed a small water heater made specifically for 2 to 5 gallon tanks. I got a thermometer too. You think the heater will help stabilize the tank?


Definitely. Make sure to raise the temperature slowly though, over the course of a few days.

[tmartini]

[QUOTE=Iron Man]
Anyway, I just purchased and installed a small water heater made specifically for 2 to 5 gallon tanks. [QUOTE]

Where did you find it? What brand/model? I'm having a hard time finding anything less than 50 watt.

[Iron Man]

[QUOTE=Iron Man]
Anyway, I just purchased and installed a small water heater made specifically for 2 to 5 gallon tanks. [QUOTE]

Where did you find it? What brand/model? I'm having a hard time finding anything less than 50 watt.

I found it at Wal-Mart. It's a 7.5 watt preset heater. Preset meaning you cant adjust the temp. It seems to be keeping the water temp around 78 degrees. Mine is very similar to the one found here [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] . There are two heater here. mine is the shorter one. the bigger one is called a "Junior Heater Plus" The other on is identical to the one I have, everything except the brand. I dont remember the brand that I got from Wal-Mart. Mine was $6.57.
Here are some I found on the net. They cost a little more amd I think the rectangle one is ugly. Enjoy [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Iron Man]

Gosh thats horrible! :( :(

Yeah, I had been away from home for about 8 months and my wife didnt know how to take care of the aquarium, so when I got home it was filthy. There was brown bacteria coating everything. It was thick, I couldnt see the gravel it was that thick. I figured that my frog was dead from the filth. I got about half way through cleaning the tank when I saw him smashed across the center of his back. It was very upsetting. I had him in there for about 3 years. I wonder what their life expectancy is.

[kimmers318]

Seeing the difference in how easy it was to take care of your 40 gal, and how difficult the 3 gal is shows you what we have mentioned.....smaller tanks go south faster with issues. There is less water to dilute the toxins, no matter how good your filter is. If you had had the same number of fish in a 40 gal tank there would have been more than 10 times the water volume to dilute the toxins in there.
Good luck with everything, you will get it under control soon. Just remember that you will never be able to have large loads in a small tank and enjoy the tank for what it can be.

[Iron Man]

Seeing the difference in how easy it was to take care of your 40 gal, and how difficult the 3 gal is shows you what we have mentioned.....smaller tanks go south faster with issues. There is less water to dilute the toxins, no matter how good your filter is. If you had had the same number of fish in a 40 gal tank there would have been more than 10 times the water volume to dilute the toxins in there.
Good luck with everything, you will get it under control soon. Just remember that you will never be able to have large loads in a small tank and enjoy the tank for what it can be.
Okay thank you.