Help with ammo spike

[canmorefishgirl]

Hi,

Recap: 15 gallon tank, set up for 1 month, fish in cycle finished 2 weeks ago. I cycled with 4 zebra danios then added 4 more when the cycle finished.

On the advice from an LFS that I would see another spike I have not fully stocked yet.

1 DEAD DANIO TODAY! :(

Tested the water and I got an ammonia spike! It was about 3.0 I think.

I just did a +50% water change and tested again and got the following:

Ammo 1.2
Ites 0
PH 8.0 (no change from the 24th)
GH 70 (was 120 on 24th)
KH 90 (no change from 24th)

On Friday I did a 15% water change as per my weekly schedule. I was doing larger water changes before but my cycle seemed to have stabilized so I just did 15% Friday. Yes, I dechlorinated.

The ONLY change in ANYTHING in the tank was that I put in fertilizer tabs under the plants. BUT I checked in here before I did that and was told I was okay to do that.

HELP! What happened. I still have ammo .... do I need to keep water changing? How much? ARGH!

Thanks!

[Lab_Rat]

I'd do another water change of 50% in a few hours. Then more water changes, trying to keep ammonia below 0.5 if you can. Obviously 0 is best. Also, I would get Prime dechlorinator as it will help lock up the ammonia into a non-toxic form.

The root tabs should not have caused the ammonia spike. Something has disrupted the biofilter or you added too many fish too soon. Before this reading what and when were your last ammonia levels?

[Wild Turkey]

Definitely keep the ammonia around or below .5 since your ph is so high.

Do another 50% asap, should take you down to around that mark, I would test it again before you go to bed and do another wc if needed.

You are using dechlor right? Do anything to the filter or media?

[canmorefishgirl]

Thanks guys. I will do another WC later this afternoon.

Yes, using declor. Always careful about that.

I did nothing to the media. Usually I have to turn off the filter when I do a WC b/c I change enough that the intake gets above water level, but I didn't have to do that Friday when I did the 15% change. It's only ever off for maybe 10 minutes.

Again, the only change was the ferts. Can those cause an ammo spike?

[Wild Turkey]

Thanks guys. I will do another WC later this afternoon.

Yes, using declor. Always careful about that.

I did nothing to the media. Usually I have to turn off the filter when I do a WC b/c I change enough that the intake gets above water level, but I didn't have to do that Friday when I did the 15% change. It's only ever off for maybe 10 minutes.

Again, the only change was the ferts. Can those cause an ammo spike?

Not very likely.

Are you pre treating the water or filling the tank and then treating? I used to fill then treat, and never had bacteria colony problems. However, since your cycle is quite new and usually u shut off the filter, that may have been it

[canmorefishgirl]

Declor in the buckets before they go in the tank.

I have not shut off my filter in 10 days.
Filter shut off for less than 10 mins on 20th or 21st. No shut off since then until 50% change today. Again, less than 10 minutes.

No ammo on the 24th but got ammo today.

edit - I reduced the water change last Friday (27th) partially so that I would not have to shut off the filter. I thought if I do wc's every 4-5 days at 15% that would be better than shutting off the filter every 7 days for a 25% change.

[Wild Turkey]

Declor in the buckets before they go in the tank.

I have not shut off my filter in 10 days.
Filter shut off for less than 10 mins on 20th or 21st. No shut off since then until 50% change today. Again, less than 10 minutes.

No ammo on the 24th but got ammo today.

It has to be the increased bio-load in that case.

Just keep treating it like a cycle, test ammonia and nitrite each day, with your ph in mind I suggest keeping the levels at:

Ammonia .5ish or less
Nitrite 1.0ish or less

[bushwhacker]

i'm kinda doubting the tank finished cycling. 2 weeks is awfully fast whichever way you cycled it... just watch it close and be ready for more water changes

[canmorefishgirl]

i'm kinda doubting the tank finished cycling. 2 weeks is awfully fast whichever way you cycled it... just watch it close and be ready for more water changes

Well I did a fish-in cycle with media from an established tank. I asked questions here and elsewhere while that was happening and everyone seemed to agree my cycle had ended.

I saw the typical ites spike that lasted for 2 weeks and then ended about a week after I added established media.

My ammo levels have never been as high as they were today.

[Wild Turkey]

If you can, getting more seeded media and adding it can help. You will still need to test and change as appropriate though of course

[canmorefishgirl]

on another thread I was told that using established filter media from another tank (2 years old with fantastic water) meant an insta-cycle.

nonetheless I had ites for another week.

I don't understand why some say I'm cycled and now maybe I'm not! ? ? ?

[Wild Turkey]

on another thread I was told that using established filter media from another tank (2 years old with fantastic water) meant an insta-cycle.

nonetheless I had ites for another week.

I don't understand why some say I'm cycled and now maybe I'm not! ? ? ?

Its an "instant" cycle in relation to the other methods. Usually it still takes at least a few days for your bacteria to catch up.

In a few days, your readings will tell us more about whats going on and where you are in the cycle process.

[canmorefishgirl]

10/4. Thanks.

Big water change and more monitoring coming my way!!

[bushwhacker]

sorry .. you didnt mention that you had seeded media in your original post. so i was basing my response on that

[canmorefishgirl]

Sorry for not being thorough Bushwhacker.

Now I think I have algae too. I thought it was just brown spots on some plant leaves but now I realize it's on the substrate, the top of the castle, more extensively on the plants than I thought and also at the lip of the filter....

:help:

[bushwhacker]

lol thats diatoms "brown algae" happens in almost all new tanks. most of the time it will go away on its own but a cple bn plecos will eat that stuff right up

[canmorefishgirl]

well... I've been told not to put more fish until my water levels are stable and at the moment they are crazy but I'll go get one right now if I can BUT I think bn plecos are too big for my tank???....15.5 gallons?
Can I get one?
And can I get just one?
And will it do okay with danios (current), small cories and small gouramis (as soon as this water problem disappears!)?

Great news it will go away though!

Also, my ammo is down to .6 - I'll do another big wc shortly and see if it goes away.

[bushwhacker]

bushys are some of the smaller plecs i dont think one would hurt your stock and no they dont have to be in schools. they are pretty hardy too

[canmorefishgirl]

Thanks. I'll go see if my LFS has any.

My ammo levels are down to .5 after 3 50% wc's. another one later today should resolve it.

However, to have algae I have to have nitrates right? And in order to have nitrates my cycle has to have finished at some point right? (sorry, I have a liquid test kit but not for nitrates).

[Wild Turkey]

Wait to add more fish until your tank is cycled, definitely.

As stated above, diatoms are harmless and will go away on their own eventually. An algae eater may be okay for your tank later on, but for now you dont want anything in the tank producing more ammonia, especially something like a pleco thats a waste factory

algae is not very picky, I dont make any assumptions based on its presence. Diatoms are a little different anyway, they use the silicates in the tank up

[bushwhacker]

as long as ammo and ites are 0 your probably finished. you wont know till you see some ates.. my tanks are planted and i very seldom see any. get the test and check.. wt i dont think one bn is gonna come to harm in that tank

[Wild Turkey]

Thanks. I'll go see if my LFS has any.

My ammo levels are down to .5 after 3 50% wc's. another one later today should resolve it.

However, to have algae I have to have nitrates right? And in order to have nitrates my cycle has to have finished at some point right? (sorry, I have a liquid test kit but not for nitrates).


Thats from today bushwhacker

[kennedpa]

Ammonia spike take up to 2 weeks to show...so I just found out...see my other thread re stock dying. Possible ammonia spike in container where I kept fish while setting up new tank.

Solution - Sea Salt at 1 tablesppon per 10 litres of tank water. Sea Salt will help the fish with damaged gills breath and assimulate the O2 easier until their gills heal from being burnt by ammonia

[canmorefishgirl]

My LFS did not have any plecos smaller than a common so I couldn't buy one of those anyway. Through our conversation they learned about smaller plecos and will order some next time they order. (why I knew that after a month and they own an LFS/pet store is another story, lol - they were suprised I refused to buy a common 'because it will only grow to the size of the tank'... "um, that's not the way it works I don't think"...)

This morning my ammo is down to trace levels - my color chart goes down to .6 and it's not quite that high.

Do I need to add salt? I'm concerned to add anything that might mess up the water further. Does salt do anything for PH or GH or KH?

[canmorefishgirl]

I read your other thread.... this may have been one of the fish I cycled with - one of them was off on their own out of the group and didn't look to be doing too well but with zebra danios it's hard to tell them apart!

So, if ammo spikes take 3 weeks to show up in the fish, that means this guy died from what happened some weeks ago during the initial cycle and now in a couple more weeks the other 7 may or may not die from what happened in the last couple days? I thought no oxygen pretty much meant insta-death.

I'm sorry, I'm confused.

[Wild Turkey]

No, you dont need to add salt, most people dont add it at all, and you certainly dont need it since your ammonia is already dropping on its own. Times for ammonia spikes dont apply to your situation either, it has to do with tank size and bioload etc etc. Once you see ammonia, its doing its damage.


Dont be confused, just test ammonia and nitrite and if ammonia is above .5 or nitrite above 1.0 do a waterchange. Repeat this everyday.

You dont need to do anything else right now.

[canmorefishgirl]

Ok thanks Wild Turkey; that's exactly what I'm doing. Ammo has stayed at about .5 and I've just finished another 50% WC.

Now... any clue what could have caused it or not till I've tested for a few days, it drops and we see if I have nitrites again?

Since I think I finished cycling, this seems like a mini cycle - does that always happen in the beginning when you increase bioload bit by bit?

[Wild Turkey]

Ok thanks Wild Turkey; that's exactly what I'm doing. Ammo has stayed at about .5 and I've just finished another 50% WC.

Now... any clue what could have caused it or not till I've tested for a few days, it drops and we see if I have nitrites again?

Since I think I finished cycling, this seems like a mini cycle - does that always happen in the beginning when you increase bioload bit by bit?

If you dont give it a little while (2 weeks is good) it can definitely cause a mini cycle. The less fish you add, and the farther in between the less likely. Making sure you have proper filtration is also crucial

[kennedpa]

No, you dont need to add salt, most people dont add it at all, and you certainly dont need it since your ammonia is already dropping on its own. Times for ammonia spikes dont apply to your situation either, it has to do with tank size and bioload etc etc. Once you see ammonia, its doing its damage.


Dont be confused, just test ammonia and nitrite and if ammonia is above .5 or nitrite above 1.0 do a waterchange. Repeat this everyday.

You dont need to do anything else right now.


Sorry for the confussion - what I meant to say is if you did have an ammonia spike and your fishes gills have been damaged red and swollen it could be ammonia burn. The salt part is to make life easier for the fish and to breath while the gills repair/heal...

[canmorefishgirl]

I've been trying to see if they are red - the trouble with Zebra Danios is that they don't stop moving long enough for me to get a good look... except when the light is off....!

The ammo is still about .5 this morning... more water changes.... I don't really understand whiy this happened. I only put 4 more danios in after the cycle ended - you wouldn't think that would shoot the bio load up that much.

I read somewhere that plants can lower the PH enough that it creates an ammo spike - and I put 4 plants in about the same time as those 4 danios. Being that my PH is already on the high side, I can't imagine it was lowered a full point to create an ammo spike, but maybe it was. I don't think I measured PH for awhile.

[Wild Turkey]

Nah, dont worry about ph just yet.

What were your nitrites this morning?

Are the plants dying?

[canmorefishgirl]

Ok - I think I might be on the mend...

Tested for Ammo - >.5
Nitrites - 0

Tested the tap water - 0 ammo out of the tap, 8.0 or so PH

Did a 50%+ WC, tested again = 0 Ammo!! But I'll test again in a few hours, maybe I just got clean tap water...:(

I've had this tank 5 weeks and I'm almost through my ammo and ites test liquids!

The plants seem fine other than the diatom spots. Where there are no diatoms I would say the swords are growing. In general I would say the diatoms are decreasing on the plants fractionally but increasing in the rest of the tank (substrate & decor & glass). I did a minor scrub of the glass just now but left the decor alone. I figure when I get that bn pleco he will be well fed by then. I'm not nearly as worried about the diatoms as the ammo!

[Wild Turkey]

You dont want to reduce the ammonia and nitrites to zero via waterchanges, you want them to reduce themselves. By removing all of the ammonia, you may be stopping the process to a point.

Keep ammonia around .5 or lower
Nitrite around 1.0 or lower

If they are already low enough, dont do a wc

Test again tomorrow

[canmorefishgirl]

Thanks, I will!

Nothing like being your own worst enemy! (blush)

[canmorefishgirl]

I'm getting frustrated - a week with no change. Ammo is still .6 or so and Nitrites still 0. I don't know what to do to make this better!!

I'm keeping the ammo down, but HOW do I get rid of it? :help:

My diatoms are still happily growing too until I get to the city to get a plec next week, but the plants are growing too, so that's fine.

[Wild Turkey]

Give the tap water another test for ammonia

Are you running an airstone?

You dont want to add a pleco next week.

[canmorefishgirl]

Tap water is 0 ammonia.

no airstone.

Ok, no pleco yet; diatoms galore instead! lol.

[Wild Turkey]

Tap water is 0 ammonia.

no airstone.

Ok, no pleco yet; diatoms galore instead! lol.

Its ok, diatoms will go away on their own, and the pleco is going to make that ammonia sky rocket

Jacking up the heat to the low eighties and running an air stone can help, so can a bio additive if you are getting impatient. Other than that, just keep testing and doing those wcs

[canmorefishgirl]

ok cool.

what is a bio-additive?

can you please tell me what an airstone does to reduce ammonia?

[Wild Turkey]

ok cool.

what is a bio-additive?

can you please tell me what an airstone does to reduce ammonia?

It doesnt, it helps make sure the bacteria are getting enough oxygen, raisng the heat a little can also help

Bio additives are the bacteria in a culture. People have sucess with tetra safe start, api stress zyme, and seachem stability

[Afk4Jfk]

Turkey, Are you sure the Bn isnt a good idea? I put an albino bn in at about 3 weeks in my 10g and hes been fine. the tank is cycled and my nitrates are rising.

[Wild Turkey]

Turkey, Are you sure the Bn isnt a good idea? I put an albino bn in at about 3 weeks in my 10g and hes been fine. the tank is cycled and my nitrates are rising.

Yea im sure, you have to get your ammonia down to zero and tank fully cycled before you add him or hes gonna really exacerbate the problem

[Afk4Jfk]

Ok that makes sense. I didnt know...

[canmorefishgirl]

Ok - one more question.

2 things:
1. My Ammo is holding steady at .6
2. I discovered yesterday through another post that one of my plants was mondo grass - a non aquatic that will not survive, that will break down and cause ammo spikes. It's only been in there 2 or 3 weeks so I'm not sure it's the cause of the ammo but I took it out.

Because I did a fish-in cycle I was using Nutrafin Cycle to help manage the bacteria. I finished the bottle a couple of weeks ago.

Since this last ammo spike I have not used any Cycle (while this may or may not be the best product I only have 1 LFS in town and this is all they carry). I am hesitant to buy another bottle because I wonder if it screwed up my cycle in the first place.

So... should I add some or shouldn't I? Why or why not?

Thanks!

[Wild Turkey]

I would wait and see what happens over the next few days with the plant gone. Keep testing and do your wc if you need to.

Later on if you need it, I would go with a more proven-successful brand like tetra safe start, api stress zyme, seachem stability or big als bio support even though the "new and improved" cycle is supposed to function more like they do.

[rlkramer1]

Sorry for jumping in in the middle, but I just read this thread today.

I agree, keep checking NH3 everyday and doing water changes to reduce to accaptable levels, DO NOT add any fish until NH3 and NO2- is at 0 for 2 weeks without doing water changes.

I think your problem are the plants? If a plant photosynthesizes and grows, it gobbles up all the NH3 and you'll never have a problem. You'll also not get a strong colony of nitrifying bacteria (you'll always have some) because the plants and the bacteria are in direct competition for NH3.

IF they do not do well, then they decay. Decaying plants release NH3. If plants start decaying all at once (like when they are moved from a comfy tank to an unestablished tank) they release more NH3 than a bunch of fish.

What type of substrate are the plants planted in? How much light do you have (hours/day, watts/gallon)? What type of plants are they (fast growing or slow gowing)? Are they getting taller? Do you see new leaves? Are they obviously growing?

If I were you, I might try to add a FAST growing FLOATING plant, such as water sprite or duck weed, if you have enough light to support these plants. If you have enough fast growing plants, then the slow growing plants can be left in long enough to become established. If not, then remove any slow growing plants until you have 0 NH3 and NO2- for a few weeks without water changes.

[canmorefishgirl]

Now that I removed the mondo grass I have 1 java fern and 2 swords. I have root tabs in plain gravel - checking with members on a plant thread in that part of this forum in regards to that and my lighting I'm alright according to the people who responded. They did encourage me to identify my mystery plant, which I did eventually (it wasn't easy because I was looking at aquatic plants!!) and then removed it.

They are growing. They do have some diatoms which Wild Turkey assures me are normal, but the swords existing leaves are growing and new growth is showing. Same with the Java fern. All seems alright in their world.

I definitely think it's possible that the plants - probably specifically the mondo grass? - caused the problem.

I've decided to be patient because I know it will all sort itself out. However, I am up for any advice or suggestions!!

Someone else did say they've had luck with Cycle...?

[rlkramer1]

I would add 1 or 2 bunches of water sprite and let it float around. To fish, NH3 is deadly, to plants, it's food. It will sponge up the NH3. Make sure you leave the tank light on 10 -12 hours a dy. No sure things with aquariums, but I'd be willing to bet your NH3 will be undetectable in 2 or 3 days.

Best wishes

[canmorefishgirl]

rlkramer1 I wish that was the case - I'm going on 10 days with an ammo spike (was higher than it is currently but got it down with some wc's) despite having plants in there.

I will look into the water sprite option though for sure. Why will it help more than my other plants?

[rlkramer1]

Java fern is a slow growing plant, swords are a moderate growing plant. Additionally, while the sword may be showing a little growth, it really needs a nutrient rich substrate to do really well.

Water sprite is a fast growing plant. Sometimes it may grow more than 2 inches higher in a day. It's an easy growing plant and does not require a nutrient media. It's a hungry plant. It's used to remove excess nutrients, including NH3 and PO4 from the water. When I set up a brand new tank, I put plenty of water sprite in it and I'm never even able to measure the first NH3 spike. For example, I set up a 29 gallon tank 6 weeks ago with plenty of water sprite and other plants. I added 5 loaches after 1 week, 2 cichlids after another 2 weeks, and 12 tetras after another 2 weeks. I've checked NH3 every few days and I've never even been able to detect it. It's always 0 and always has been 0. Same with nitrites. The only way I know it's really 'cycled' is becuase nitrates are detectibel, fluctuating between 2 and 12 ppm.

[canmorefishgirl]

Ahhhh.... got it. THanks.

Off to the store - the understocked store with a new plant order recently. Let's hope I can identify water sprite because I know the staff will have nooooooooooo idea!

[Afk4Jfk]

One thing i learned when buying plants, if all you read or hear is the name... then before you buy it, look up some pics of it online. this will arm you with the knowledge just in case the LFS tries to sell you the wrong plant or even sick plant.
rlkramer1... i think i will also grab some water sprite for my 30... good idea!

[Wild Turkey]

Yes, your mondo grass was definitely rotting since its not an aquatic plant.

What are your readings now?

[canmorefishgirl]

I just tested -

Ammo Still .6
Now I have ites too for the first time, though I haven't tested those in a day or 2 - those are .1

[Wild Turkey]

I just tested -

Ammo Still .6
Now I have ites too for the first time, though I haven't tested those in a day or 2 - those are .1

Now thats something to smile about :ssmile:

The most important thing is to monitor those closely, you will probably see a sharp drop in ammonia and a spike in nitrites soon

[canmorefishgirl]

Now that I've decided to be patient instead of frustrated it IS something to smile about. At least I know my cycle will be well established by the time this is over - without Cycle or any other additive, just my filter and the plants on their own. :ssmile:

I'm due for a wc but I think I'll just do a small one today so I can keep the filter running and not totally remove the ites.

Thanks for all your help Wild Turkey - and all of you others. :22: Much appreciated - though I don't know if I'm done!!

[Wild Turkey]

Np - and its hard to say to where you are in the cycle, but generally the appearance of ites means you are "half way" or thereaboutsthumbs2:

[canmorefishgirl]

LOL - I think you're always half way when you're going in circles!

[Wild Turkey]

LOL - I think you're always half way when you're going in circles!

LOL good answer:hmm3grin2orange:

[canmorefishgirl]

Update!

My ammo and ites are both down to 0! They've been that way for a few days now so I can safely say that my cycle is finally established!

What a relief.

[rlkramer1]

Cool.

ps-I have to enter at least 10 characters to post.

Cool.

[rich311k]

Congrats! Job well done.

[Afk4Jfk]

Thats great news