cycling taking too long?

[nicefix]

Hello all,

I'm a revived newbie. Just got back into fish keaping after almost a 20 year absence. I had 3 tanks when I was a little kid and was an avid reader of Aquarium Fish magazine (I think that's what it was called). Unfortunately, it's been so long I've had to reabsorb much of the knowledge I once had.

Anyway, I set up a 38 gallon tank about 5 weeks ago. For the first week there was no filtration or heat and it was only stocked with a betta. Then I installed a Penguin 200B bio wheel filter and a heater, then I added a few Zebra Danios and a Dalmation Molly.

I picked up a water test kit a couple weeks ago and began to monitor the Ammonia. Naturaly the Ammonia was a little high (1.5mg/l). So I got a little nervous and did some 10% water changes a couple days in a row (yes I use water conditioner). The ammonia levels didn't budge. Needless to say, the fish didn't look stressed at all. So I left it alone for a while. Then just the other day, one of the Danio's got either fin rot, or was nipped by another fish. It was lathargic and skinny and hanging at the bottom. So I did a 20% water change and tested the next day. Ammonia still unchanged. Did another 20% the next day and that night the Danio died (this was yesterday). I checked the Ammonia again this morning and it's still stuck at 1.5 mg/l. Also I checked the Nitrites a few times and they're nonexistent.

I plan on doing another 20% change today to try and dilute the ammonia some more but I'm puzzled why these water changes don't seem to be bringing the levels down. I'm also concerned that after 5 weeks I'm not seeing Nitrites. Shouldn't I be seeing Nitrites by now? Or is this normal?

Oh, also the PH is at 7.0 and GH and KH are fine (very soft), Nitrates are 0

[Chrona]

Hello all,

I'm a revived newbie. Just got back into fish keaping after almost a 20 year absence. I had 3 tanks when I was a little kid and was an avid reader of Aquarium Fish magazine (I think that's what it was called). Unfortunately, it's been so long I've had to reabsorb much of the knowledge I once had.

Anyway, I set up a 38 gallon tank about 5 weeks ago. For the first week there was no filtration or heat and it was only stocked with a betta. Then I installed a Penguin 200B bio wheel filter and a heater, then I added a few Zebra Danios and a Dalmation Molly.

I picked up a water test kit a couple weeks ago and began to monitor the Ammonia. Naturaly the Ammonia was a little high (1.5mg/l). So I got a little nervous and did some 10% water changes a couple days in a row (yes I use water conditioner). The ammonia levels didn't budge. Needless to say, the fish didn't look stressed at all. So I left it alone for a while. Then just the other day, one of the Danio's got either fin rot, or was nipped by another fish. It was lathargic and skinny and hanging at the bottom. So I did a 20% water change and tested the next day. Ammonia still unchanged. Did another 20% the next day and that night the Danio died (this was yesturday). I checked the Ammonia again this morning and it's still stuck at 1.5 mg/l. Also I checked the Nitrites a few times and they're nonexistent.

I plan on doing another 20% change today to try and dilute the ammonia some more but I'm puzzled why these water changes don't seem to be bringing the levels down. I'm also concerned that after 5 weeks I'm not seeing Nitrites. Shouldn't I be seeing Nitrites by now? Or is this normal?

Oh, also the PH is at 7.0 and GH and KH are fine (very soft), Nitrates are 0

Are you disturbing the substrate or filter at all? Water changes should be 25%-50%, 10% water changes do very little except supplement some more trace elements into the tank. That being said, I'm sure the daily water changes have slowed down the cycling of the tank, as bacteria needs ammonia to reproduce, but I do not think that is the sole cause, since you should be seeing some nitrites now regardless. Which water conditioner are you using? My guess is that your test kit is not being entirely accurate as well. Try bringing a sample to the LFS and having them test it for a second opinion.

Also, what is the exact kH? if your pH is exactly 7.0, it means there is very little buffering capacity in the water, so you may want to add some baking soda (1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water will raise it by 4 degrees) to ensure that that the pH stays fairly steady.

[nicefix]

Are you disturbing the substrate or filter at all? Water changes should be 25%-50%, 10% water changes do very little except supplement some more trace elements into the tank. That being said, I'm sure the daily water changes have slowed down the cycling of the tank, as bacteria needs ammonia to reproduce, but I do not think that is the sole cause, since you should be seeing some nitrites now regardless. Which water conditioner are you using? My guess is that your test kit is not being entirely accurate as well. Try bringing a sample to the LFS and having them test it for a second opinion.

Also, what is the exact kH? if your pH is exactly 7.0, it means there is very little buffering capacity in the water, so you may want to add some baking soda (1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of water will raise it by 4 degrees) to ensure that that the pH stays fairly steady.

I did vacuum the gravel a couple of times over the past month but I knew not to do it too thoroughly. The filter has not been changed or cleaned since installed a month ago.

How would the water changes slow down the cycling if the ammonia is still high? There should be plenty of ammonia for the bacteria.

I've been using aqua plus by Nutrafin to condition my tap water at 5ml per 5 gal.

As for the accuracy of my test kit. I did test my tap water for ammonia and it read 0. Not sure if that justifies the kit but I will still get it tested at my LFS.

I tested the KH today and I don't know what the exact reading is, I think it's considered 0. I can tell you how it works. While aggitating the sample you apply one drop at a time until the water turn from blue to yellow. However many drops it takes to turn from blue to yellow is you reading. Mine went right to yellow, no indication of blue at all. The instructions said that if that happens then the sample is very soft.

[Chrona]

I did vacuum the gravel a couple of times over the past month but I knew not to do it too thoroughly. The filter has not been changed or cleaned since installed a month ago.

How would the water changes slow down the cycling if the ammonia is still high? There should be plenty of ammonia for the bacteria.

I've been using aqua plus by Nutrafin to condition my tap water at 5ml per 5 gal.

As for the accuracy of my test kit. I did test my tap water for ammonia and it read 0. Not sure if that justifies the kit but I will still get it tested at my LFS.

I tested the KH today and I don't know what the exact reading is, I think it's considered 0. I can tell you how it works. While aggitating the sample you apply one drop at a time until the water turn from blue to yellow. However many drops it takes to turn from blue to yellow is you reading. Mine went right to yellow, no indication of blue at all. The instructions said that if that happens then the sample is very soft.

Well first off, add 1 teaspoon of baking soda per 10 gallons of water. A kH of near 0 dH is very dangerous and this will get it up to 4-5, which provides an ample buffer against pH swings.

As for the ammonia, normal fishless cycling calls for about 5 ppm of ammonia to bring the bacteria population up quickly. Because the water changes you did were only 10%, I said that I don't think that is the sole cause of slower bacteria growth, since 5 weeks is a LONG time to go without seeing any nitrites, regardless of substrate disturbances. To be honest, I'm not sure what the cause is at this stage. At a pH of 7.0, even 1 ppm of ammonia is lethal after a week of continuous exposure

As for the Aquaplus, you are only adding it when you put in new water correct? Does it say anything on the back about effecting ammonia readings? I know products like Amquel+ screw with ammonia test kits and give a false positive, so there is a remote possibility that Aquaplus is doing it as well.

[Lady Hobbs]

Don't clean the gravel at all. Stuff is growing in there and each time you vac a new tank, you will set it back by doing that or changing out the filter media. But yes, now that you have fish, you will have to do those water changes are they will die. Betta's are not a cycling fish and may not make it.

[nicefix]

Well first off, add 1 teaspoon of baking soda per 10 gallons of water. A kH of near 0 dH is very dangerous and this will get it up to 4-5, which provides an ample buffer against pH swings.

As for the ammonia, normal fishless cycling calls for about 5 ppm of ammonia to bring the bacteria population up quickly. Because the water changes you did were only 10%, I said that I don't think that is the sole cause of slower bacteria growth, since 5 weeks is a LONG time to go without seeing any nitrites, regardless of substrate disturbances. To be honest, I'm not sure what the cause is at this stage. At a pH of 7.0, even 1 ppm of ammonia is lethal after a week of continuous exposure

As for the Aquaplus, you are only adding it when you put in new water correct? Does it say anything on the back about effecting ammonia readings? I know products like Amquel+ screw with ammonia test kits and give a false positive, so there is a remote possibility that Aquaplus is doing it as well.

Can I add the baking soda right to the water as the fish breath it in? Or should I remove them temporarily while it dissolves in the tank? What is the average ammonia reading for a tank that's cycling with fish? What would be the ideal PH to protect the fish from the lethal ammonia? I have chemicals to control the ph up or down and can change it to whatever is best for them.

As far as I know, the Aquaplus is just a dechlorenator and shouldn't have any affect on the ammonia.

[nicefix]

Don't clean the gravel at all. Stuff is growing in there and each time you vac a new tank, you will set it back by doing that or changing out the filter media. But yes, now that you have fish, you will have to do those water changes are they will die. Betta's are not a cycling fish and may not make it.

I'm a little worried about the betta. I thought because he has a libyrinth organ that he wouldn't be as susceptible to the ammonia. He's been in there since the beginning and seems fine but maybe I should take him out anyway.

[Owen Stubbs]

FYI - I use Aquaplus as well. Filled a test vial (5ml) with tap water, added 10 drops of aquaplus. No ammonia detected.

[Drumachine09]

Water Changes during a cycle will do nothing but slow down the cycle. I reccomend fishless cycling, it is way faster, and much cheaper.

[nicefix]

Water Changes during a cycle will do nothing but slow down the cycle. I reccomend fishless cycling, it is way faster, and much cheaper.

If the ammonia levels stay this high for too long then it will be a fishless cycle if you know what I mean.

Thanks for the tip, but unfortunately that's not an option. At this point I just need to keep my fish alive while waiting for the cycle to end.

[nicefix]

I was getting nervous so I took out the betta and returned him to his original depressing bowl. He's not happy to be back in that cramped space but I think he'll thank me (or maybe not because he's a fish) when he survives.

[Chrona]

Can I add the baking soda right to the water as the fish breath it in? Or should I remove them temporarily while it dissolves in the tank? What is the average ammonia reading for a tank that's cycling with fish? What would be the ideal PH to protect the fish from the lethal ammonia? I have chemicals to control the ph up or down and can change it to whatever is best for them.

As far as I know, the Aquaplus is just a dechlorenator and shouldn't have any affect on the ammonia.

Mix it with a little tank water first, then pour the solution in front of the outlet of your filter to disperse it. Don't add more than 1/2 teaspoon worth at a time (wait 10 minutes before adding more)

Average ammonia depends on the variety and number of fish in the tank. Normal fishless cycling calls for 5 ppm of ammonia, which is the waste equivalent of well over the stocking capacity. Ammonia poisoning is reduced at lower pH's, so getting some kind of acid buffer (or Proper pH) to drop the pH down to 6 (SLOWLY over the course of a week) will reduce the stress on the fish.

[nicefix]

Mix it with a little tank water first, then pour the solution in front of the outlet of your filter to disperse it. Don't add more than 1/2 teaspoon worth at a time (wait 10 minutes before adding more)

Average ammonia depends on the variety and number of fish in the tank. Normal fishless cycling calls for 5 ppm of ammonia, which is the waste equivalent of well over the stocking capacity. Ammonia poisoning is reduced at lower pH's, so getting some kind of acid buffer (or Proper pH) to drop the pH down to 6 (SLOWLY over the course of a week) will reduce the stress on the fish.

OK, I added the baking soda and I tested the KH last night. I got a reading of 7. A little higher than you said but from what I've read, it should be fine. I also added an acid buffer which should have lowered the PH by 0.2. This morning I tested the PH and I got a reading of 8.0 which is way higher than the reading I got a few days ago (7.0). I'm assuming the PH swung before I increased the KH. I added some more acid buffer. Enough for a .2 shift per 24 hours.

I'm thinking now since the KH is up, I might have problems trying to get the PH down to 6.0. What do you think? Also, how much more vulnerable are my Danios and Molly to the ammonia at such a high PH?

[Chrona]

OK, I added the baking soda and I tested the KH last night. I got a reading of 7. A little higher than you said but from what I've read, it should be fine. I also added an acid buffer which should have lowered the PH by 0.2. This morning I tested the PH and I got a reading of 8.0 which is way higher than the reading I got a few days ago (7.0). I'm assuming the PH swung before I increased the KH. I added some more acid buffer. Enough for a .2 shift per 24 hours.

I'm thinking now since the KH is up, I might have problems trying to get the PH down to 6.0. What do you think? Also, how much more vulnerable are my Danios and Molly to the ammonia at such a high PH?

It looks like you had a decent amount of kH in there to begin with (3 degrees) so you can add some acid buffer to eat up some of it. I assumed by soft water, you meant you only had a kH of like 0-1. What kind of acid buffer is this btw? If it's just a pH lowering solution, then I would advise against using it, but Seachem's Acid Buffer will work well (it eats up kH in the process in order to help bring the pH down and keep it down)

pH only affects ammonia poisoning, and since you don't have any ammonia in the water (non detectable that is) you are fine. To relieve nitrite poisoning you can add 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10 gallons of water. The mollies will love it. Eventually, through water changes you'll want to get rid of most of this salt though.

[nicefix]

It looks like you had a decent amount of kH in there to begin with (3 degrees) so you can add some acid buffer to eat up some of it. I assumed by soft water, you meant you only had a kH of like 0-1. What kind of acid buffer is this btw? If it's just a pH lowering solution, then I would advise against using it, but Seachem's Acid Buffer will work well (it eats up kH in the process in order to help bring the pH down and keep it down)

pH only affects ammonia poisoning, and since you don't have any ammonia in the water (non detectable that is) you are fine. To relieve nitrite poisoning you can add 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt per 10 gallons of water. The mollies will love it. Eventually, through water changes you'll want to get rid of most of this salt though.

I tested the KH on Wednesday after you asked for the reading and I got 0. The next day I added the baking soda and tested again that night and got 7.

I've been using Aquarium Pharmaceuticals PH Down. Not sure if it's considered an acid buffer or a ph lowering solution, I didn't know there was a difference.

Not sure what you mean when you said I don't have any non detectable ammonia in the water because I have a consistent reading of 1.5 ppm. Also, I just tested the nitrite an hour ago and I'm getting the same reading as always (0 ppm).

[Chrona]

kH of 7 is ok. A bit high (1 teaspoon per 10g should have raised it by exactly 4 degrees) So try to get it down to about 3-4 dH through water changes over the course of a week. Don't use pH Down, as the pH will keep rebounding. Don't worry about pH for now, since fish would much rather have a stable pH than an ideal one (they probably adapted to local water anyways at the LFS). What is your feeding schedule like? Any leftover food? I'm stumped as to the lack of progess with cycling.

[nicefix]

kH of 7 is ok. A bit high (1 teaspoon per 10g should have raised it by exactly 4 degrees) So try to get it down to about 3-4 dH through water changes over the course of a week. Don't use pH Down, as the pH will keep rebounding. Don't worry about pH for now, since fish would much rather have a stable pH than an ideal one (they probably adapted to local water anyways at the LFS). What is your feeding schedule like? Any leftover food? I'm stumped as to the lack of progess with cycling.

Not really sure why the KH went up so high. I'm sure I did it right. I even researched the formula you gave me after the high reading (no offense). Maybe I used some kind of double strength baking soda. No biggie, I'll do some water changes and bring it down.

Why will the PH keep rebounding? Because of the KH?

Lately I've been feeding sparingly once a day because I'm worried about the ammonia but for the first month it was twice a day. Sometimes there's a couple uneaten flakes that fall to the bottom.

FYI, I stopped doing daily water changes because I didn't want to slow the cycle even further and I'm keeping an eye on the ammonia. It just doesn't budge from that 1.5 ppm reading.....strange. Never goes up or down. If it's critical to get that KH down then I'll do some water changes this week. If not, maybe I'll wait untill the cycle finishes.

[Chrona]

Not really sure why the KH went up so high. I'm sure I did it right. I even researched the formula you gave me after the high reading (no offense). Maybe I used some kind of double strength baking soda. No biggie, I'll do some water changes and bring it down.

Why will the PH keep rebounding? Because of the KH?

Lately I've been feeding sparingly once a day because I'm worried about the ammonia but for the first month it was twice a day. Sometimes there's a couple uneaten flakes that fall to the bottom.

FYI, I stopped doing daily water changes because I didn't want to slow the cycle even further and I'm keeping an eye on the ammonia. It just doesn't budge from that 1.5 ppm reading.....strange. Never goes up or down. If it's critical to get that KH down then I'll do some water changes this week. If not, maybe I'll wait untill the cycle finishes.

The kH is fine the way it is, but ammonia poisoning is worse at higher pH's, so if you see anything unusual, do a partial water change. The pH Down will not be able to maintain a steady pH because there is so much buffer in the water now, so just don't bother. The only time you need to worry about pH is if your tap water is through the roof (like 8+) or if you are keeping sensitive fish like discus or rummynose tetras. Seachem Acid Buffer works, since it eats up some of the kH (while leaving enough to provide a buffer) in order to lower pH. Again though, entirely unneccesary, and undesirable at this stage because your fish don't need an additional source of stress.

[nicefix]

The kH is fine the way it is, but ammonia poisoning is worse at higher pH's, so if you see anything unusual, do a partial water change. The pH Down will not be able to maintain a steady pH because there is so much buffer in the water now, so just don't bother. The only time you need to worry about pH is if your tap water is through the roof (like 8+) or if you are keeping sensitive fish like discus or rummynose tetras. Seachem Acid Buffer works, since it eats up some of the kH (while leaving enough to provide a buffer) in order to lower pH. Again though, entirely unneccesary, and undesirable at this stage because your fish don't need an additional source of stress.

Well I appreciate your help. Hopefully the tank will finish cycling soon. I'll post again if anything interesting happens.

thanks again,

Jim