Government Controlling Healthcare

[jackson17]

Just wanted to see what everyone thought about this. I will post my views later on as right now my chest is killing me. Also, please keep it civilized and mannered:22:

[Lab_Rat]

From a health-care professional standpoint...VERY BAD idea for everyone.

[gm72]

Everyone needs to understand that these threads usually end up in chaos and that will simply not happen with this one. The moment it starts going south warnings will be issued and the thread will be closed. Just a heads-up.

[Gramazing]

I'm Australian and I've lived in the USA for the last seven years. I'm going to apply for citizenship this year. I have a good job with great health insurance, so I'm doing okay.

It still stuns me though how utterly callous the health care system is in this country. My supervisor is still paying off doctors for "experimental" surgery that was done as a last resort on one of twin babies his wife had from her previous marriage. The baby died and the surviving twin is now in college. Because it was experimental it wasn't covered. Such a thing would be unthinkable in Australia. There would be riots in the streets. (Hint: Every industrialized country has some kind of universal health care, except the USA.)

And to think that there are people who actually die because they don't have health insurance..... that just boggles my mind. I really don't understand how Americans put up with it. Actually I do - it's because they don't know any different.

[bigbad-ratman]

well right meow, the government run "Cash for Clunkers," is biting all of the car dealerships in the dingy. not a good omen if they are looking for support for another program to get their fingers in.

[Northernguy]

I guess its scary if you never had it but I live in Canada and I must say that I like our health care system.I couldn't afford to take my kids to a doctors office for anything if they charged for it.
I have also had three hip replacements that the health care system covered costing me nothing.I wonder what that would cost in the States? or is it covered for an average citizen?

[Lab_Rat]

And to think that there are people who actually die because they don't have health insurance.....

EDs cannot turn people away for emergency health care, regardless of their ability to pay. Many of the hospitals I have rotated through take on so many charity cases it's ridiculous.

I spent 5.5 weeks in Scotland learning about the NHS Scotland which is socialized health care. I would never want such a system. You can look on their website, typical wait period for a coronary bypass is 6-8 weeks. Would you want your mother or father to have to wait that long for such a critical surgery? In the US that surgery would be performed within hours to days.

ETA: NHS Scotland also provides needle exchanges for drug addicts and is considering providing spoons, etc for all the heroin addicts over there. Do you want your tax money facilitating such programs? I sure don't.

[smaug]

Its socialism plain and simple.If socialism is what the american people want then govt healthcare is the way to go.If you are for what our service men fight and die for then you should be steaming mad.You all know where I stand.:22:

[Taurus]

I guess its scary if you never had it but I live in Canada and I must say that I like our health care system.I couldn't afford to take my kids to a doctors office for anything if they charged for it.
I have also had three hip replacements that the health care system covered costing me nothing.I wonder what that would cost in the States? or is it covered for an average citizen?

NG, doesn't Canada have socialized health care? Meaning health care is paid for by your Government through taxes that you pay to the Government? I'm just curious..just a question. :22:

[MonkeyPox]

Its socialism plain and simple.If socialism is what the american people want then govt healthcare is the way to go.If you are for what our service men fight and die for then you should be steaming mad.You all know where I stand.:22:

Our servicemen and women fight for capitalism?
If government run healthcare (which is an inaccurate term for the bill being considered) is socialism, would not the VA also be considered socialism?

[cubby]

Its socialism plain and simple.If socialism is what the american people want then govt healthcare is the way to go.If you are for what our service men fight and die for then you should be steaming mad.You all know where I stand.:22:


BINGO. thats is all i will say. if i wanted to be socialist, i wouldn't live in the US.

[smaug]

Our servicemen and women fight for capitalism?
If government run healthcare (which is an inaccurate term for the bill being considered) is socialism, would not the VA also be considered socialism?
th va is an earned privelage by our servicemen.

[MonkeyPox]

So why not apply the same logic to our citizens as a whole?

Socialism is thrown out a lot as a negative term, but what does it really mean?
Aren't consumer protection laws anti-capitalism? Isn't medicare socialism? Aren't the police and other government funded services a form of socialism?

Isn't sewer, electricity, water, garbage socialism?

The national flood insurance program is socialism, no?

How about the national highway safety service?

Our national parks are run by the federal government, right? Should we abolish those as well?

[smaug]

So why not apply the same logic to our citizens as a whole?

Socialism is thrown out a lot as a negative term, but what does it really mean?
Aren't consumer protection laws anti-capitalism? Isn't medicare socialism? Aren't the police and other government funded services a form of socialism?

Isn't sewer, electricity, water, garbage socialism?

The national flood insurance program is socialism, no?

How about the national highway safety service?

Our national parks are run by the federal government, right? Should we abolish those as well?
no,thats not socialsim.all of those things are paid for by people who actually use those services.gov med care will be paid for by me whether i use it or not.

[MonkeyPox]

I pay for police and fire services if I use them or not. I pay property taxes that fund the public school system, though my child is in private school. My taxes pay medicare and social security and I certainly do not use those services.

My federal taxes support the park system with no regard to my desire to visit the parks.

How is that not socialism?

On a separate note, how do you know that you will pay for a government optioned system? Last time I read, they hadn't decided how to pay for it and were suggesting a variety of methods. The most popular one I've heard is through taxes on wage earners making over 250k a year?

If a person without insurance goes to a hospital for treatment, they can not be refused by law for non-elective procedures. Where do you think the cost for those services comes from and who funds them currently?

[Red]

"red sits down, with his popcorn and some star wars elavator music playing"

[smaug]

And how would that be fair for anyone regardless of yearly income to pay for anyones insurance but there own?Like I said,I have no desire to pay for anyones insurance but my own.

[Lab_Rat]

I am bowing out of this thread now, I don't want to provide more entertainment for Red.

[MonkeyPox]

But as I pointed out, you do that already. You subsidize the National Flood Insurance Program. You pay for those who don't have insurance and need medical care. You pay for a ton of things you don't use already.

[Red]

I am bowing out of this thread now, I don't want to provide more entertainment for Red.

Thats what the chat is for :rolling:

[smaug]

But as I pointed out, you do that already. You subsidize the National Flood Insurance Program. You pay for those who don't have insurance and need medical care. You pay for a ton of things you don't use already.
Minimally,,,,,,,,Not the much larger amount that this would cost.I have heard figures as high as 30%.As for your fed taxes paying for the parks that is not much true either.The lions share of that come from the pittman robbinson act enacted on equipment purchased by sportsman,the rest comes mostly from mineral rights and other leases payed for land use.
And of course you will use medicade and soc security,though you are right on those few points ,those 2 are purely socialism.

[MonkeyPox]

Partially true. They are state and federal employees who run the parks. Where do you think the funding comes from to pay their health insurance?

The point I am making is that socialism is thrown out as an argument against this plan, and damn near everything the President has attempted to do. In my book, applying an inaccurate label to something isn't a proper reason to be against something. Many, many liberties we enjoy in this country would fall under the term "socialism", and our citizenry would scream bloody murder if we attempted to take them away. I find it very offensive to the the construct of sensible debate when demagoguery is used in favor of political buzzwords by politicians and media opponents instead of a rational discussion of the merits and ideas set forth. I find it to be a form of neo-McCarthyism, and something I had hoped our nation had moved past.

I'm not necessarily in favor of the current proposal, but I would submit the thought that one of the marks of the nation (one who frequently tells the rest of the world we're the greatest nation this planet has ever seen, might I add) is how we treat our less fortunate. 40 million Americans without health insurance is an absolute abomination from where I sit. A fix of some sort is definitely in order.

[Northernguy]

NG, doesn't Canada have socialized health care? Meaning health care is paid for by your Government through taxes that you pay to the Government? I'm just curious..just a question. :22:
Yes and at what they charge for hospital rooms,the surgury,bloodwork and xrays I'd be going bankrupt every couple of years !
What do you pay for medical insurance that would cover that?
What would one do if they had no insurance,lose a leg?

[smaug]

There is a way out for the less fortunate,a way to pay the bills,provide insurance for there family's,put food on the table.Get a job,get 2 if needed,sacrifice the TV,the cable,the cell phones,the computer,the internet ,get educated and better yourself.That is what its all about,that is why millions came here,that is why we ARE the greatest nation on earth.The opportunity is there,it simply isn't easy which is why so many opt for the handouts.For all those who truly cant work,or a seriously impared,there is already a system in place for them,we dont need more.

[Algenco]

If all you folks that have "free healthcare" would sit down and figure up what taxes, price controls on farmers, etc it is really costing you I don't think you would be very happy

[Northernguy]

So only people on Welfare get free healthcare!
Is medical insurance expensive?
Do they charge set price for everything or bill it all seperately depending on what it is?
Just curious,I have no idea how it works over there!

What does free health care have to do with farmers?

[MonkeyPox]

In principle I agree with the sentiment, but our current system just doesn't allow that to happen.

I think its a vast oversimplification to state that everyone who's uninsured is somehow lazy, inept, or living with frivolities.

The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical bills, with a large percentage of those actually having medical insurance.
I think allowing private companies determine which procedures you're covered for and which you're not is the greater crime.

[Lab_Rat]

There is a way out for the less fortunate,a way to pay the bills,provide insurance for there family's,put food on the table.Get a job,get 2 if needed,sacrifice the TV,the cable,the cell phones,the computer,the internet ,get educated and better yourself.That is what its all about,that is why millions came here,that is why we ARE the greatest nation on earth.The opportunity is there,it simply isn't easy which is why so many opt for the handouts.For all those who truly cant work,or a seriously impared,there is already a system in place for them,we dont need more.

Thank you Smaug! Couldn't have said it better myself! :19:

[smaug]

In principle I agree with the sentiment, but our current system just doesn't allow that to happen.

I think its a vast oversimplification to state that everyone who's uninsured is somehow lazy, inept, or living with frivolities.

The number one cause for bankruptcy is medical bills, with a large percentage of those actually having medical insurance.
I think allowing private companies determine which procedures you're covered for and which you're not is the greater crime.
I dont remember using that word "everyone".The current system still allows for those that have the will and the ambition to excel.I appreciate how this has stayed civil,but I worry that may be short lived,we have both stated our points.I will cease and desist.

[MonkeyPox]

So only people on Welfare get free healthcare!
Is medical insurance expensive?
Do they charge set price for everything or bill it all seperately depending on what it is?
Just curious,I have no idea how it works over there!

Each company sets their rate for what coverage they provide. They then are the arbiters of what procedures are covered and what are not. They frequently deny coverage or payment for "pre-existing conditions", so getting insurance when you are already ill or have a chronic illness is much more difficult.

No hospital can deny emergency treatment for anyone. They are required to treat and stabilize you with no regard to your medical insurance status. If you can not pay, the state absorbs the cost.

Typical insurance has a monthly bill, and each procedure has a co-pay or co-insurance attached to it. Members also have a yearly deductible they have to pay on top of their insurance. Most insurance policies also have a yearly cap. Insurance also breaks down by type- HMO, PPO, etc... these will determine who you can and can not go to for coverage. If you choose someone not in the PPO, for example, there is an increased rate you pay and a lower percentage of total treatment your insurance pays.

Most americans get their insurance through their employer, who absorbs the additional cost of the insurance. This cost is constantly rising leading smaller companies to drop insurance altogether. It certainly eats into company profits and pay.

Private insurance is anything but cheap. As an example, my employer provides my insurance and I pay about 8% of my mid-6 figure salary to cover it. My parents who are self employed pay $3k a month for moderate coverage. This figure would jump dramatically if they had diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, etc...

[Rue]

Healthcare should be for everyone. That should be a non-issue. We do all this health research - billions made - and we're going to deny it to the unfortunate part of our population? It doesn't even make sense.

However, I think all healthcare needs reforms. I am in favour of user fees to minimize the effect of that portion of the population that seems to like to abuse the system (like hypochondriacs and those that run to the Doctor for every little boo-boo; those people need to start taking more responsibility for themselves).

[MonkeyPox]

I dont remember using that word "everyone".The current system still allows for those that have the will and the ambition to excel.I appreciate how this has stayed civil,but I worry that may be short lived,we have both stated our points.I will cease and desist.

You are correct and my mistake. You did not use the word Everyone.

[Northernguy]

Each company sets their rate for what coverage they provide. They then are the arbiters of what procedures are covered and what are not. They frequently deny coverage or payment for "pre-existing conditions", so getting insurance when you are already ill or have a chronic illness is much more difficult.

No hospital can deny emergency treatment for anyone. They are required to treat and stabilize you with no regard to your medical insurance status. If you can not pay, the state absorbs the cost.

Typical insurance has a monthly bill, and each procedure has a co-pay or co-insurance attached to it. Members also have a yearly deductible they have to pay on top of their insurance. Most insurance policies also have a yearly cap. Insurance also breaks down by type- HMO, PPO, etc... these will determine who you can and can not go to for coverage. If you choose someone not in the PPO, for example, there is an increased rate you pay and a lower percentage of total treatment your insurance pays.

Most americans get their insurance through their employer, who absorbs the additional cost of the insurance. This cost is constantly rising leading smaller companies to drop insurance altogether. It certainly eats into company profits and pay.

Private insurance is anything but cheap. As an example, my employer provides my insurance and I pay about 8% of my mid-6 figure salary to cover it. My parents who are self employed pay $3k a month for moderate coverage. This figure would jump dramatically if they had diabetes, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, etc...
Thank you! I appreciate that!
Algenco I have no idea what costs us what! I do know we are taxed up the a..! I do vote and I do pay taxes but that doesn't matter,our politicians are pretty sad as far as working for the people goes.I do love our health care system because I'd be legless without it by the sounds of it!I do know we are way overcharged for most everything!Try proving it! It would cost billions to have an investigation!

[cubby]

EVERYONE should have healthcare.

but one thing no ones seems to be talking about: if this plan is so AWESOME... why are our elected officials leaving THEMSELVES a loophole to get out of it?:scry:

[Nautilus29]

I'm not saying I'm for the new proposal for health care reform(its far from a true socialized system). But if it wasn't for the governments hand in the medical industry it would have all ready crashed. First of all we need to get rid of illegal imigrants who use our system for free costing us billions, then we can fix our system.

The only thing the media focuses on about this proposal is the gov run insurance plan made to compete against the private ones, when there is sooo much more to the bill. But what makes the media money? Contraversy.

If this was a true socialized system then maybe our taxes would go up 30% but it's not so it's not fair to base it off of Canada or England.

I'm not for or against the bill, I just want the parties to stop fighting and making up lies, just to get votes, and do our country some good.

[domjd05]

Its not socialism.. plain and simple.. don't let rush and beck fool you. The government won't own the hospitals.. and the Doctors and nurses won't be employed by the government... we are talking about a public plan OPTION.

It gets so blown out of proportion... funding for abortions? death panels? None of this is in the actual bill. All hysteria from one side that really hates to take a cut on their bottom line.

I honestly would like to see this whole debate start over again.. without the biased media intervention... instead of these proposals being nit-picked by the average american like it should be.. it gets turned on its head by the media (both sides) TV, radio pundits and "commentators", all pander to SOME special interest... What about us? the people who don't live in NYC and work on the top floor of a 45 story sky scraper... the people who makes less than 100k a year facing layoffs, with kids... aka, the majority of the entire country. Wouldn't it be nice if we had an honest look at what's going on here? But most of us can't.. its been so bent and distorted we'll probably never know what could have come from it.

[Nautilus29]

Its not socialism.. plain and simple.. don't let rush and beck fool you. The government won't own the hospitals.. and the Doctors and nurses won't be employed by the government... we are talking about a public plan OPTION.

It gets so blown out of proportion... funding for abortions? death panels? None of this is in the actual bill. All hysteria from one side that really hates to take a cut on their bottom line.


True that!!!!!!! That's what I meant by the polititions losing to get votes the more they get you to hate the other side the better it is for them. People like beck and liberal sided talk shows feed off this to make money, same as fox news and msnbc.

[Nautilus29]

I have a great email I'd love to send to you domjd05

[gabbyguppy]

There is a way out for the less fortunate,a way to pay the bills,provide insurance for there family's,put food on the table.Get a job,get 2 if needed,sacrifice the TV,the cable,the cell phones,the computer,the internet ,get educated and better yourself..

I feel this is a common misconception about folks without a health care plan.

My parents fall into the category of the 'working poor'. They don't lounge around expecting handouts from their government. They live a modest life without modern conveniences. They have no computer, cable or cell phones. They do without things that I consider staples in my home.

I think it's easy for the 'haves' to sit in judgment of the 'have nots'. Contrary to popular belief, there are hard working individuals in need of assistance in regards to heath care.

How will we pay for it.......pull our butts out of IRAQ!

Karen

[Nautilus29]

I feel this is a common misconception about folks without a health care plan.

My parents fall into the category of the 'working poor'. They don't lounge around expecting handouts from their government. They live a modest life without modern conveniences. They have no computer, cable or cell phones. They do without things that I consider staples in my home.

I think it's easy for the 'haves' to sit in judgment of the 'have nots'. Contrary to popular belief, there are hard working individuals in need of assistance in regards to heath care.

How will we pay for it.......pull our butts out of IRAQ!

Karen

Ya but karen we had to go to Iraq, the iraqian people say America please come and help us over here we hate how things are run. So we went overthere and overturned their government, just like they wanted.

[robflanker]

From a health-care professional standpoint...VERY BAD idea for everyone.

From another health-care professional stand point - I think it is a good idea

[Alfcea]

I will just say that health care was one -amongst many- reason why I chose to live and work in Canada rather than in the US.

[Gramazing]

EDs cannot turn people away for emergency health care, regardless of their ability to pay. Many of the hospitals I have rotated through take on so many charity cases it's ridiculous. Not every person who dies from a medical condition has an emergency. (And besides if the system is reformed your hospitals wouldn't have "charity" cases any more.) It could be a disease that takes years and if they don't have insurance they don't get the treatment. If you have leukemia can you go to an emergency ward?

Do you acknowledge that some people in the USA actually die from lack of health insurance? And if so is this acceptable to you?
I spent 5.5 weeks in Scotland learning about the NHS Scotland which is socialized health care. I would never want such a system. You can look on their website, typical wait period for a coronary bypass is 6-8 weeks. Would you want your mother or father to have to wait that long for such a critical surgery? In the US that surgery would be performed within hours to days.Unless you have no health insurance, then it would never be performed. AFAIK there are only waiting lists for non essential surgery. That is certainly the case in Australia. My mother had to wait several months for a knee replacement. But she'd rather have that than live under a system where some people actually die because they have no health insurance.ETA: NHS Scotland also provides needle exchanges for drug addicts and is considering providing spoons, etc for all the heroin addicts over there. Do you want your tax money facilitating such programs? I sure don't. Yes. Would you prefer drug addicts to get AIDS and HepB and eventually cost the system more? Needle exchanges are quite normal in many western countries.

[Gramazing]

no,thats not socialsim.all of those things are paid for by people who actually use those services.gov med care will be paid for by me whether i use it or not.You'll use it eventually. Someone you care about will. And if you don't, you will still benefit from the fact that others do. A healthy society is a productive society. Litigation to recover medical bills will plummet, liability insurance costs (an order of magnitude higher for doctors in the US than on other civilized countries) will drop and health care will cost less overall. The flow-on from people not having to worry about where their health care comes from will create benefits in all kinds if places.

[Gramazing]

And how would that be fair for anyone regardless of yearly income to pay for anyones insurance but there own?Like I said,I have no desire to pay for anyones insurance but my own. But that's what insurance is. Spreading the risk.

[Deleted User]

I'm new here and hope I don't get in trouble for being too political.

As a long time business owner, I am VERY much opposed to universal / socialized healthcare for this Nation. Business are struggling enough these days. I can promise you what I will do if an 8% (or whatever) penalty is imposed on me as an employer for not providing health insurance to employees (mine are actually covered under their husband's policies)... I will be cutting my payroll by at least 8%, and yes, that might mean terminating someone's employment. It will be the same at many other companies.

Personally, I have just been diagnosed with probable lung cancer (primary, has not spread -- I have not ever been a smoker nor around second hand smoke). It's been less than 3wks since I found out that there is a lesion in my left lung. Since then, I have:
met with a pulmonologist (specialist) 3x
met with a thoracic surgeon -- actually the Chief of thoracic surgery at his hospital, which is one of the best hospitals in the Nation
had a bronchoscopy biopsy (outpatient surgery)
Had a CT Scan with Contrast
had a high end PET / CT Fusion scan
had more xrays
had comprehensive bloodwork done
had an EKG
had a V/Q Nuclear Scan
AND surgery is scheduled for TOMORROW

I firmly believe that if I lived in a nation with socialized health care, right now, all I'd know is a chest xray on me looked cloudy (but that maybe I hadn't taken a deep enough breath), and I would be awaiting that first CT scan which would probably happen a couple of months from now.

The ability to get quick and comprehensive diagnostic tests done, and the ability to get in and see these specialists (well paid, and they deserve it -- the fact that they are well paid is why there are enough of them in my area to see me fast!) ... these kinds of things SAVE LIVES. It has been less than 3wks since I found out it looked like something significant was wrong and here I am at the verge of the fix happening tomorrow (the surgery).

When it comes to some uninsured people (and I think some reported numbers are grossly inflated / misrepresentative), some people simply do not have insurance because they make poor personal choices. Not most uninsured, but I know there's a percentage there and I know this because I am a horse person. I have "a lot" of horses and I have a lot of horse friends. In this day and age, I can think of nothing more frivolous and non-necessary than owning a single horse (been a LONG time since anyone "needed" a horse), yet there are a number of my horse friends who own horses yet do not have health insurance on themselves. There are other people too, without horses but with stuff no one "needs" who choose not to take responsibility for themselves and get insured.

I feel the numbers of uninsured reported by the mainstream media is greatly inflated. People can and will think whatever they want, but I think if you want the closest version of the truth and the ability to hear two sides of an argument, tune in to FOX News. I think if NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, and MSNBC covered things as fair and balanced as I think FOX News does (and I mean the news, not the talking head programs), things would be A LOT different politically right now.

This all said, I do very much feel there is room for improvement and that there should be some changes in how health insurance works, is regulated, and the ability to access plans across state lines. We need improvement but the bottom line is that the USA has the best healthcare in the world. THIS is where people who can afford to seek out the best healthcare come for that healthcare. We need to not destroy the quality of care that we are currently blessed to have.

Jill

[Neon]

...a human and citizen's right in most of the civilized , western , countries and because of this healtcare is provided from the state , through taxes , to the citizens regardless of their income ...and that's not socialism ! It's scary to think that the first thing an ambulance crew would do is to look in your pocket if u got an insurance or a credit card ...Unbielevable....

PS : according to UN : the best healtcare in EU is provided in France ( public/state funded )
the best healt care in the world ( again not private ) is provided in Canada.

[Neon]

Its socialism plain and simple.If socialism is what the american people want then govt healthcare is the way to go.If you are for what our service men fight and die for then you should be steaming mad.You all know where I stand.:22:


sorry Smaug to quote u but is true that many vets from Iraq/afgan. didn't receive a even decent rehabilitation for he injuries they got in the wars as they couldn't afford it being from the lowest classes ( of course or you won't go to the hell to pay your college ) and a movie director had to take many of them to cuba ?

ps go to war to pay colleges fees ? then come back injured and u cannot afford to pay rehabilitation/cure : where the hell they live ??? I hope my kids will never have to be forced in such circumstances.

ps I'm a vet myself , was in the Italian army ( Serg.- Engineer corp ) in Lebanon long long time ago

[gabbyguppy]

Personally, I have just been diagnosed with probable lung cancer (primary, has not spread -- I have not ever been a smoker nor around second hand smoke). It's been less than 3wks since I found out that there is a lesion in my left lung. Since then, I have:
met with a pulmonologist (specialist) 3x
met with a thoracic surgeon -- actually the Chief of thoracic surgery at his hospital, which is one of the best hospitals in the Nation
had a bronchoscopy biopsy (outpatient surgery)
Had a CT Scan with Contrast
had a high end PET / CT Fusion scan
had more xrays
had comprehensive bloodwork done
had an EKG
had a V/Q Nuclear Scan
AND surgery is scheduled for TOMORROW

I firmly believe that if I lived in a nation with socialized health care, right now, all I'd know is a chest xray on me looked cloudy
Jill

And I firmly believe that if you were one of the many working Americans, without health care, you would be in the same boat.

Thankfully, you fall into the category of someone blessed with health insurance. Some Americans don't have the luxury of health benefits.

I am thankful that you were able to visit a Doctor, get a speedy diagnosis and a treatment plan. I just wish medical care was available for all of us.....not just the 'privileged' few.

Blessings,

Karen

[Deleted User]

And I firmly believe that if you were one of the many working Americans, without health care, you would be in the same boat.

Thankfully, you fall into the category of someone blessed with health insurance. Some Americans don't have the luxury of health benefits.

I am thankful that you were able to visit a Doctor, get a speedy diagnosis and a treatment plan. I just wish medical care was available for all of us.....not just the 'privileged' few.

Blessings,

Karen
Karen, thank you for the well wishes.

But, make no mistake about the working part. There were quite a few years where if you divided the number of hours I put into building what I've been building and divided that by what income I took, I was making less than minimum wage. I busted my butt and continue to do so. I don't work this hard and take the personal financial risks it takes to be a business owner to have it NOT work for me and I will make it work for me. I hope my employees (who are appreciated and well paid -- but not family!) will not suffer the results of any kind of gov't mandate.

As I understand it, the majority of Americans are happy with their current healthcare options, as of course I am as well. Most Americans are insured and most do not want to change. We need to do something to make it easier for those who have fallen through the cracks, but socializing our healthcare system would be a mistake.

You've probably seen the bumper sticker: "If You Think Healthcare Is Expensive Now, Just Wait Until It's "FREE"". Truer words...

[Lady Hobbs]

This is just another thing to get all up in arms about and add to the "scare" tactics.

The countries that have Health Insurance of some kind are: Afghanistan, Argentina, Austria, Australia, Belgium, Brazil, Canada, Chile, China, Cuba, Costa Rica, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Iraq, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Oman, Portugal, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, Sweden, South Korea, Sri Lanka, Ukraine and the United Kingdom. And three more countries working to get it.

And here we are, sitting here number 27th in quality for healthcare for our citizens. Frankly, I find this disgraceful just as I find us being rated in 18th place for our education, not trying to become more energy efficient and a host of other things we continue to lag behind in.

If we have enough money to fight everyones wars, we certainly can insure our own people against illness and injury.

I had wonderful insurance when I worked (Cigna.) But jobs are no more secure than marriages. You can be dropped at any moment for any reason. What you are bragging about today may be gone tomorrow with no way to ever be insured again because of a prior illness.

If you think private insurance works so well perhaps you need to think back to how well it worked after Katrina?

Social security and medicare were both fought for tooth and nail, people screamed "socialism" and did the dance as they are doing now. Oh Boy! This medicare is terrible alright. I go to the doctor I want, he is the one who orders what needs to be done and the bill is sent to the government. That's terrible all right!

My only problem with this plan is that I feel the cost should be put on everyone. Look what every state is paying out in Medicaid for those without insurance? This keeps the poorer states even more poor. They are paying out tons of money for medicaid and closing their schools. Hardly seems right to me.

[annie p]

+1 what Lady Hobbs said

[Lady Hobbs]

I'm new here and hope I don't get in trouble for being too political.

As a long time business owner, I am VERY much opposed to universal / socialized healthcare for this Nation. Business are struggling enough these days. I can promise you what I will do if an 8% (or whatever) penalty is imposed on me as an employer for not providing health insurance to employees (mine are actually covered under their husband's policies)... I will be cutting my payroll by at least 8%, and yes, that might mean terminating someone's employment. It will be the same at many other companies.

Personally, I have just been diagnosed with probable lung cancer (primary, has not spread -- I have not ever been a smoker nor around second hand smoke). It's been less than 3wks since I found out that there is a lesion in my left lung. Since then, I have:

met with a pulmonologist (specialist) 3x
met with a thoracic surgeon -- actually the Chief of thoracic surgery at his hospital, which is one of the best hospitals in the Nation
had a bronchoscopy biopsy (outpatient surgery)
Had a CT Scan with Contrast
had a high end PET / CT Fusion scan
had more xrays
had comprehensive bloodwork done
had an EKG
had a V/Q Nuclear Scan
AND surgery is scheduled for TOMORROWI firmly believe that if I lived in a nation with socialized health care, right now, all I'd know is a chest xray on me looked cloudy (but that maybe I hadn't taken a deep enough breath), and I would be awaiting that first CT scan which would probably happen a couple of months from now.

The ability to get quick and comprehensive diagnostic tests done, and the ability to get in and see these specialists (well paid, and they deserve it -- the fact that they are well paid is why there are enough of them in my area to see me fast!) ... these kinds of things SAVE LIVES. It has been less than 3wks since I found out it looked like something significant was wrong and here I am at the verge of the fix happening tomorrow (the surgery).

When it comes to some uninsured people (and I think some reported numbers are grossly inflated / misrepresentative), some people simply do not have insurance because they make poor personal choices. Not most uninsured, but I know there's a percentage there and I know this because I am a horse person. I have "a lot" of horses and I have a lot of horse friends. In this day and age, I can think of nothing more frivolous and non-necessary than owning a single horse (been a LONG time since anyone "needed" a horse), yet there are a number of my horse friends who own horses yet do not have health insurance on themselves. There are other people too, without horses but with stuff no one "needs" who choose not to take responsibility for themselves and get insured.

I feel the numbers of uninsured reported by the mainstream media is greatly inflated. People can and will think whatever they want, but I think if you want the closest version of the truth and the ability to hear two sides of an argument, tune in to FOX News. I think if NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, and MSNBC covered things as fair and balanced as I think FOX News does (and I mean the news, not the talking head programs), things would be A LOT different politically right now.

This all said, I do very much feel there is room for improvement and that there should be some changes in how health insurance works, is regulated, and the ability to access plans across state lines. We need improvement but the bottom line is that the USA has the best healthcare in the world. THIS is where people who can afford to seek out the best healthcare come for that healthcare. We need to not destroy the quality of care that we are currently blessed to have.

Jill

Jill, you are now speculating you would not have received the same care. You can not guess what would and would not happen. People in England and in Canada also get lung cancer and receive the care they need, don't they?

Go to work somewhere else now and you will not be insured again. The biggest problem that I see is that so many are looking at today and are not looking at what is down the pathway tomorrow.

[MonkeyPox]

Also, Jill, you are not taking into account the annual increase in cost for health insurance. Businesses are already losing more money each year for providing health care. Does it not stand to reason that they already have, and continue to, cut payrolls or hiring to cover their cost of insurance?

Some people don't have insurance because they make poor choices- this is quite true. There are also some people who don't have insurance because they have made all the right choices. There are some who are denied coverage due to preexisting conditions. Those who had their insurance just plain dropped. Others who found their conditions not covered or deductibles too high.

Also, and for some reason this keeps being lost, what is proposed is a government OPTION. I really don't know how to stress this enough. If you already have insurance, then it stays the same or perhaps improves due to increased competition (Isn't that capitalism?!?).

Option =! government run.

[MonkeyPox]

We need improvement but the bottom line is that the USA has the best healthcare in the world.

Sadly, there are no demonstrable metrics that make this statement true. Americans love to go around the world and tell others (often places they've never been or no knowledge of) how great we are and how we're the best at everything, but when it comes down to proving it, we often fall short.

Healthcare is a prime example where, depending on the criteria used, we're at best in the middle of the pack.


I feel the numbers of uninsured reported by the mainstream media is greatly inflated. People can and will think whatever they want, but I think if you want the closest version of the truth and the ability to hear two sides of an argument, tune in to FOX News. I think if NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, and MSNBC covered things as fair and balanced as I think FOX News does (and I mean the news, not the talking head programs), things would be A LOT different politically right now.


I'm not trying to pick on you here Jill, but by every measure of independent research, FOX news is the least objective of the mainstream networks.
Also, the number of Americans reported who have insurance isn't data collected by the networks, but by independent researchers, foundations, and the government (prior to Barack's election) itself.

You can't blame the network for reporting the numbers.

I'm curious why you think they're inflated? What data do you base that on?

[bluebluecow]

from someone in the uk i am only greatful for the good old nhs, we might all moan. Yes i have benifits because of my joints but i pay taxes on my benifit.

Since i was little i have had loads of x rays, and also ops ect.

I have had 3 children, 2 in a fantastic hospital that was more like a hotel. With my 3rd i went into labour at 32 weeks, not only did they arrange a helicopter if they couldnt stopp it, they also gave me a medicine to stop labour that was 3 pounds a syringe, i had 4 off these over the time, no way i could of afforded that.

I am on strong painkilliers and get nhs free perscriptions, im lucky to get that, if i didnt i would have to pay the nhs rate of 7 pound an item.

Proof that pople benifit from free healthcare is our dental system, it was allowed to set its own prices, and nhs dentists are rare, a checkup can cost 20 pounds, and the rate of tooth decay has risen.

I am grateful for nhs, and would not move to a counrty without free healthcare for all

And yes nhs moves fast my dad needed a triple heart bipass he was in within t wks, a close friend has just died from cancer she was treated veryy quick.

Liz

[Rue]

So Jill...what about people that slip through the cracks?

For example, what about a young person who was in a car accident - hit by a drunk driver...they're brain injured...can't hold down a permanent job...so no health care. And they'll need care until they die...what do they do for the next 60-70 years?

[AmazingH]

I live in Ontario, Canada.

My family recently travelled down to Alabama and caught a cruise ship to Mexico. We decided to drive, and we met many, many people along the way.

Every time we would stay at a hotel, my parents would bring up their healthcare system with the person working in the lobby.

What we were amazed to find is that almost everyone was in debt.
One girl, Starlina, was pregnant. It would cost her $5000 to have her baby.
My mom's reply?
"I paid $15 to have my daughter. And that was because I wanted a private room."

They all told us that they had to decide if they/their child was sick enough to go to the doctor.

We just cannot believe this!

My mom: "We debate going to the doctor's too. But that's because we're not sure if we want to get out of bed to go or not."

We talked with another manager of a hotel.

"So do you have walk-in clinics?"

Mom: "Yup"

"And they're free too??"

Mom: "Yep. Sometimes you might have to wait in the waiting room for a bit, but it's all free"

My mom asked one woman how they pay for their medications.

"Well, I'm lucky. My company covers x amount."

Mom: "And so I guess Walmart's really helping out with the $4 prescriptions?"

"Yes!!!"

Mom: "My work covers $1000 chiropractic care, dentist, eye ware etc. My husband's also covers alot of things, so my husband and I split everything between us. So we all go to the chiropractor for free.

One woman asked "How does the government pay?"

Mom: "It is based on your income. If you make $0, you don't pay anything, but you still get free healthcare."

My parents would also tell them about that commercial Shona Holmes did.

"Canadian Shona Holmes says that the government waiting-list almost killed her after doctors discovered a cyst on her pituitary gland. "

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Mom: Let's clear things up.
Her tumor was benign.

My mother blames her doctor for sending her into this "panic".



If there are no hospitals who have the equipment/space to help you, the goverment will pay to send you to Buffalo for treatment.

On our cruise ship, we were assigned "dinner buddies" who we had to sit with every night in the dining room. They were from Dayton, Ohio. There was a mother, father, a daughter who looked like my age... but had just graduated highschool (and was engaged...), a 13 year old son, and a 6 year old daughter.

The mother and older daughter were nurses, so most of our dinner talks were about healthcare. It was amazing, seeing their reaction when they asked us questions. They are now in favor of our healthcare system.





If you don't agree with something I've said.. hey, I'm just a kid... right? :sconfused:

[Taurus]

Bottom line is our health care system in the US is broken, very broken. Costs are rising while quality of care is degrading. Go ask a retiree what the cost of his health insurance plan is. The numbers will scare you.

I believe the Government Option, or the formation of co-ops, will give everyone the opportunity for affordable, quality health care and help control costs. If that means an increase in taxes then so be it.

Now, don't anyone dare call me a socialist. Don't call me a capitialist. Don't try to label me, or put me in a nice round or square definition box because you can't.

I do believe we can take elements from socialized heath care and combine them with elements of private health care to create a new health care system that is afforable and has a set of checks and balances to keep costs under control. It has to happen or we will all eventually get sick or injured and won't be able to afford to get well. So cool your political jets and name calling. Calm down and be reasonable, have respect for another persons point of view.

Again, as Lady Hobbs so eloquently put it, our health care system is broken and WE need to fix it. Show's over Sev. I hope you enjoyed it. :22:

[Lady Hobbs]

Good point and a nice post. Thanks for your views.

On a personal side, I would like to explain a situation I had. I had been a waitress, bartender, painter, tree sprayer and a variety of jobs all my life. I had no insurance with any of them. (Insurance has nothing to do with how hard you work.)

There I was, many years later living in FL and working as a cashier in a convenience store and waiting, waiting, waiting for my insurance to kick in. I was sick as a dog but could not afford to go to the doctor because I knew it would have been hundreds of dollars in testing. (OK Thousands)

Finally, my Cigna insurance kicked in and off I go to the doctor for the first time IN 21 YEARS! No wonder I was feeling poorly because after tons of testing I was found to have 7 chronic medical conditions. I hated my job with a passion but could not leave it due to the insurance coverage. I certainly could not get insurance from anyone else now. Cobra insurance when I left was $400 a month.

Had I not had to wait 21 years I wouldn't have been so ill and ended up on disability at 58 years.

There's nothing unusal about my situation. This is going on all over this country everyday. People are ill and can't afford to go to a doctor. Can't afford to go to a hospital, get blood work done, get xrays or buy medications.
There are more jobs that do not offer medical insurance than do and many of those that do are dropping it due to rising costs to them.

Taurus......I tried to get life insurance recently. My funeral is paid for but I wanted something extra for my kids. Because I was in the hospital 2 years ago with chest pains, I can not even get a cheap life insurance policy and the hospital found nothing wrong with me. My chart says "admitted for chest pain" and that's all she wrote!

[Gramazing]

Good point and a nice post. Thanks for your views.

On a personal side, I would like to explain a situation I had. I had been a waitress, bartender, painter, tree sprayer and a variety of jobs all my life. I had no insurance with any of them. (Insurance has nothing to do with how hard you work.)

There I was, many years later living in FL and working as a cashier in a convenience store and waiting, waiting, waiting for my insurance to kick in. I was sick as a dog but could not afford to go to the doctor because I knew it would have been hundreds of dollars in testing. (OK Thousands)

Finally, my Cigna insurance kicked in and off I go to the doctor for the first time IN 21 YEARS! No wonder I was feeling poorly because after tons of testing I was found to have 7 chronic medical conditions. I hated my job with a passion but could not leave it due to the insurance coverage. I certainly could not get insurance from anyone else now. Cobra insurance when I left was $400 a month.

Had I not had to wait 21 years I wouldn't have been so ill and ended up on disability at 58 years.

There's nothing unusal about my situation. This is going on all over this country everyday. People are ill and can't afford to go to a doctor. Can't afford to go to a hospital, get blood work done, get xrays or buy medications.
There are more jobs that do not offer medical insurance than do and many of those that do are dropping it due to rising costs to them.


Lady Hobbs, what you've been through is a disgrace and any American should be ashamed to live under such a system. It doesn't have to be this way. I repeat - every developed nation has some kind of universal system where this kind of thing doesn't happen. Except for the USA.

[Gramazing]

Its not socialism.. plain and simple.. don't let rush and beck fool you. The government won't own the hospitals.. and the Doctors and nurses won't be employed by the government... we are talking about a public plan OPTION. The government owns most of the hospitals in Australia. Does that make Australia a socialist country?

And anyway.... dismissing something as "socialist", whether accurately or not, is just IMO another form of political correctness, just like dismissing someone as racist if they express a view about immigration that the other person doesn't like. The merits of the argument should be addressed and argued not labelled.

[gabbyguppy]

Good point and a nice post. Thanks for your views.

On a personal side, I would like to explain a situation I had. I had been a waitress, bartender, painter, tree sprayer and a variety of jobs all my life. I had no insurance with any of them. (Insurance has nothing to do with how hard you work.)

There I was, many years later living in FL and working as a cashier in a convenience store and waiting, waiting, waiting for my insurance to kick in. I was sick as a dog but could not afford to go to the doctor because I knew it would have been hundreds of dollars in testing. (OK Thousands)

Finally, my Cigna insurance kicked in and off I go to the doctor for the first time IN 21 YEARS! No wonder I was feeling poorly because after tons of testing I was found to have 7 chronic medical conditions. I hated my job with a passion but could not leave it due to the insurance coverage. I certainly could not get insurance from anyone else now. Cobra insurance when I left was $400 a month.

Had I not had to wait 21 years I wouldn't have been so ill and ended up on disability at 58 years.

There's nothing unusal about my situation. This is going on all over this country everyday. People are ill and can't afford to go to a doctor. Can't afford to go to a hospital, get blood work done, get xrays or buy medications.
There are more jobs that do not offer medical insurance than do and many of those that do are dropping it due to rising costs to them.

Taurus......I tried to get life insurance recently. My funeral is paid for but I wanted something extra for my kids. Because I was in the hospital 2 years ago with chest pains, I can not even get a cheap life insurance policy and the hospital found nothing wrong with me. My chart says "admitted for chest pain" and that's all she wrote!

Great post! I'm thankful you spoke of your situation and put a 'face' on the folks who would benefit from a health care plan.

It's a misconception to think that only low life, non working losers would benefit from such a plan. There's plenty of folks that fall through the cracks. They make just enough to not qualify for assistance, but not enough to purchase health insurance. These folks can live their whole lives without seeking much needed medical care. I just find it very sad. Especially in America.

Karen

[MonkeyPox]

For an eye opening experience, I encourage anyone interested to look at the number of people who declared bankruptcy due to medical bills that had insurance to begin with.

On a separate note, the pre-existing condition clause to deny coverage is one of the most egregious crimes in the industry.

[Lab_Rat]

the pre-existing condition clause to deny coverage is one of the most egregious crimes in the industry.

I completely agree with this statement, and I do know there are people who work hard but fall through the cracks, like Lady Hobbs did. I agree something needs to be changed but giving the government control over health care is not the right step. Look what a mess our government makes anyway. What makes you all think they'll do any better with health care?

[jackson17]

Wow, at least its turning into a peaceful thread and not a bashwar.

Anyway, now to my view after 7 pages lol.

I believe there should be some kind of step for the people who fall through as some have mentioned, complete control, no way. I can't see a government that has COMPLETE control over healthcare being able to address the needs of some serious threats and risks. And then, they would probably do something that is cost effective, and not the best way to deal with something serious as say cancer. I can't see them wanting to ''waste'' money on a cancer or illness that is 100% fatal.

There needs to be something to help those less fortunate, but complete control is a scary thought IMO.

[Rue]

The whole system and way of thinking (philosophy) about health is hypocritcal and then some.

We'll spend a fortune trying to keep critically ill people alive when it would be much kinder to euthanize - and then we'll let relatively healthy people die because they slip through the cracks...

We spend a fortune developing medical treatments, techniques and drugs and then deny the unfortunate access to them.

We feel sorry for the mentally ill (when we're not blaming them) and those injured that lose quality of life, but then don't want to spend any time helping them out because they're now permanently on the bottom rung of our societal heirarchy.

(Caution: I feel a need to go on a tangent) : We'll spend a fortune keeping criminals comfortable in jail instead of subjecting them to the 'indignity' of a work detail (even though work details would be able to do so many of those 'lowly' jobs no one in our 'priviledged' society is willing to do - even for pay).

Our entire thinking is screwed up...

[MonkeyPox]

I completely agree with this statement, and I do know there are people who work hard but fall through the cracks, like Lady Hobbs did. I agree something needs to be changed but giving the government control over health care is not the right step. Look what a mess our government makes anyway. What makes you all think they'll do any better with health care?

There is no plan in Congress to give the government control of health care.

No disrespect Lab_Rat, but it is very annoying when even the context of the debate is twisted.

By the way, name a private service industry that has it's act together? I think Katrina was a great national exposure to how poorly run private insurance is.

[Kaz]

ETA: NHS Scotland also provides needle exchanges for drug addicts and is considering providing spoons, etc for all the heroin addicts over there. Do you want your tax money facilitating such programs?

Ummm, Yeah.

[Deleted User]

Jill, you are now speculating you would not have received the same care. You can not guess what would and would not happen. People in England and in Canada also get lung cancer and receive the care they need, don't they?

Go to work somewhere else now and you will not be insured again. The biggest problem that I see is that so many are looking at today and are not looking at what is down the pathway tomorrow.
Not true. I have a private policy I just got when our group plan terminated. There are safety nets in place that allow you to convert your group coverage over to an individual plan. And, I would know... One of the licenses I hold is a life & health insurance license in several states, although the only person I sell health insurance to is myself. There is a lot of misinformation out there about people not being able to keep coverage if they loose a job. If they can afford to keep it, they can keep it. My premium is way up there -- probably more than many pay for mortgage or rent, but I am insured. I'm not speculating I would not have recieved the same care. I know there are long waits for the diagnostic tests I have already had done within such a short period of time, just as I know Canadians who can afford to come to the US, skip the wait, and get better care DO.

I appreciate that we all have our own opinions, but this is something as close to my heart as it is to anyone else's and it is something I have spent a long time thinking and learning about. One of the things that makes the USA a great nation is that we are a capitalist society. There is nothing American about socialism and socializing the medical system will be expensive in more ways than one. We need some changes, but I sure do not want the government handling my medical choices and neither do most Americans. Business owners like myself will make the bottom line work for them -- they have to. These days, so much of what I need done and many companies need done can be outsourced to private contractors... think what that would do to the economy if much of a "fix" falls on the shoulders of business owners.

[Nautilus29]

We all ready pay for the uninsureds health coverage, only when it's too late and they are in the hospital for a serious illness. We can't listen to the bias news and then tell others they have a crappy system! The new distorts small issues with the universal coverage to make it look like a huge issue.

Honestly this arguement should only be about if you feel like the gov should or shouldn't spend the money on it, not about how our system works and others don't because if you look past the political lies you will realize that our system doesn't work in it's given state. And the only reason it has worked so far is because of our tax money that goes into the system.

And lastly. The government is not taking over the health industry, they are trying to reform it. The public option is only a small part of what this bill is about, the media and polititians use it to create this fight that we all love to do.

Ok and the statement made about our tax money going to drug users, we give our gov tax money that they do way way worst stuff with.

I'm still debating myself about how I feel about this bill. But not because of some bullcrap that I heard, because I'm scared that this will eventually start running our national debt higher and higher. I understand we will have to spend the money to start off with but I hope that it will sustain itself after ten years or so.

[Little Embers]

I don't know anything really about America's Healthcare System/Insurance/cover, so I can't comment..

...But I think we should be thankful that at least we have a HealthCare system in place...it may not work efficiently, but it is better than not having one at all, which is what some third world countries have...they have basically nothing!!...

[Sarkazmo]

Health care should be a RIGHT, not a PRIVILEGE only for those that can afford it.

In America health care is a for profit business. Every day in this country people go without care because they can't afford the hospital bills. My good friend DIED of a blood clot because he couldn't afford to go see a Dr.

This must stop.

Sark

[Deleted User]

If we expect doctors to not be VERY well paid (especially the specialists), then we better lower the standards to get into medical school and make it easier to become a doctor. Sound like a good idea?

The hospital I'm having surgery at tomorrow, Inova Fairfax, is one of the best in the Nation AND it is a not for profit hospital [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[kerouac]

I think Mr. Obama is making the right first steps toward achieving a healthcare system that will actually work for the country, and it saddens me to hear about all those hyped up and completely un-called for rumours surrounding the reform.

It's not right when whether or not people live or die is dictated by an insurance company. A friend of the family's husband lost his life at 33 because his stem cell transplant would not be covered, as it was considered experimental at that time. And their's was certainly not the only family who has had that happen to them. I don't care who or what you are, that's absolutely dispicable.

People shouldn't have to suffer and/or possibly die because they can't afford to get treated. Health care is a right, and if we have money to kill people and train armies then we can find the money to take care of our own. I for one would gladly put up with the higher taxes as a result.

It definitely won't be a quick fix, but this is a step in the right direction at least.

[domjd05]

Amazed to see this thread in such good shape so far.

[Gramazing]

If we expect doctors to not be VERY well paid (especially the specialists), then we better lower the standards to get into medical school and make it easier to become a doctor. Sound like a good idea?

The hospital I'm having surgery at tomorrow, Inova Fairfax, is one of the best in the Nation AND it is a not for profit hospital [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] My question to you is, how do other countries manage then? All the other countries that have universal health coverage? Do they have lower standards of health care?

As others have pointed out in this thread, the US is lower than most western countries in most indicators of health.

[Gramazing]

I completely agree with this statement, and I do know there are people who work hard but fall through the cracks, like Lady Hobbs did. I agree something needs to be changed but giving the government control over health care is not the right step. Look what a mess our government makes anyway. What makes you all think they'll do any better with health care?As far as I know the government at most wants one alternative provided by the government for those who prefer it to a private insurance fund. They don't want to control the whole system.

Although I'd be happy if they did. It's always interesting to me how Americans are so suspicious of government but less so of corporate machinations. (reminder: I'm an aussie living in the USA) A system where people are denied health insurance because of a pre-existing condition is a system that doesn't work. I wonder why this "not-working" is excused while a government administered "not-working" is not.

[Gramazing]

One of the things that makes the USA a great nation is that we are a capitalist society. There is nothing American about socialism and socializing the medical system will be expensive in more ways than one.It's been explained that this is not socialism so why do you persist in calling it this in spite of the evidence to the contrary?

So the US is a capitalist society. Do you think Australia is not? Canada is not? Japan is not?

Have you not also learned that the medical system in the USA costs more, not less than other western countries? I personally know that a simple visit to a family doctor is almost double in the USA to what it cost me in Australia (before Medicare kicked in). Americans pay more per person than other westerners do, not less. And yet not everybody is covered. People go bankrupt, people die.

Why do you persist in your position in spite of all these facts? Surely a belief has to be open to new evidence for it to be rational.

[Neon]

healtcare comes from , the right I say , assumption , that all have the right to life , to live ,and so anybody , regardless of their income is provided with healtcare.
From this basic value then we add another value the value of solidarity between human beings and between fellow citizens , we take care trhough UH of each other.
I know there r abuses , I know there are misfunctioning , but UH it is in the right directions.
I wonder how people find no contradiction of being against abortion ( because of the right to life ) and at the same time against Universal healtcare which can save lifes...well I think is the same contradiction of being against abortion and in favour of death penalty or in favour of wars.

Over here in EU , governments are doing their best not to make working public healtcare so people are pushed towards private insurances/healtcare.

[Lady Hobbs]

OK, gotta say it. I am totally proud of everyone here who has joined in this discussion without flipping out! Talking politics just does not work here, causes too make argruments, hard feelings and lost friendships so these threads really are not allowed in this forum and always deleted.

I have the feeling that about 10 Moderator eyes have been staring at these posts waiting for the crash to happen. But so far so good and just wanted to say Thanks for remaining cool and objective.

[Northernguy]

This thread has been a great read!I am also very surprised that its not closed yet.lol thumbs2:
Good luck and I hope all of you in the US can decide on this eventually.It is a good thing to have!
Yes in Canada we pay high taxes but we can still go to a doctor and afford to put food on the table and pay a mortgage.
I can still walk somewhat because nobody billed me for my hip replacements!:19: Yes we have to wait to see a doctor but Not All The Time!
Its a comfort knowing that I can have a heart attack and not declare bankruptcy because I survived!
Yes we have our fair share of hipocondriacs but who doesn't!
Its not a perfect system but a far cry better than Nothing!:22:

[domjd05]

once again.

The government want's a public o-p-t-i-o-n

The government will not employ the doctors
The government will not run or own the hospitals, but will provide the funding for the patients who are cared for at the hospital with a public option plan.

I'm not so sure the doctors are going to take such a big hit in the paycheck that we'll start accepting people of "lower intelligence" in our medical schools. you'd be surprised how many doctors only go to school and become a doctor simply for the fat paycheck... I definately agree that you should be compensated very well for being a (good) DOCTOR, (not a good butcher), and I am willing pay a tax for that.. at least theres no deductable.

Not to say it will be a perfect plan, but the whole point is not to wake up from a quadrouple bypass surgery and arrive home with a $100,000 medical bill with 30 days to pay. (yes, this happens)

[Algenco]

Well I think most points have been expressed.

I'm closing this thread while it's still civil.
We did away with the Controversial section because of arguments and decided against allowing Political threads.