Snow globe??

[hungryhound]

Spring may be on the horizon, but i seems that winter has fallen in our tank. The water is clear, but their is a fine white particulate matter making our fish tank look like a 46g snow globe.

As stated above, it's a 46g planted aquarium that gets weekly water changes of at least 25%. The filter is a Marineland biowheel 350. Water parameters:
0ppm ammonia
0ppm nitrites
10ppm nitrates (a water change was done after this reading today)
Substrate is eco-complete (not sure how a black substrate would give off white particles, but you never know!).

We are also currently fighting with brown algae as the tank is a little over a month old, but we tripled the plant matter in the tank tonight.

Any ideas as to what the problem could be? I've attached a picture with one of Dwarf Flame Gouramis and the snow falling around him

Thanks!

[cocoa_pleco]

Its just waste. whenever i started my canister filter especially, and hob's, i get a blizzard.

[Chrona]

Did anything come off of the plants? And are the particles just specks or shaped like something? And is your water clear otherwise? My guess is that it was either stirred up from the substrate or entered the tank via the new plants.

[hungryhound]

This problem does not just present itself after a water change with a filter restart. It has been a consistent problem since the get go, and is one we thought would have resolved itself by now (boy were we wrong!).

Are their any ways to fix this or do we need more filtration (and yes I know everyone says "you can never over-filter")?

[Chrona]

It depends on the type of filtration too. You could put 100 HOB filters on a cloudy tank and it would never clear up because the rough pads on HOB's don't do micro particles. I think that is your situation here. Are these just specks on otherwise clear looking water? Or are there enough so the water actually looks kind of hazy? In either case, you should try some water clarifiers that clump particles. Make sure you do not have very soft water/low kH before adding it though. Or just stuff some filter floss wherever you can in the filter media compartment.

[genitor]

beautiful gourami!thumbs2:

[hungryhound]

Did anything come off of the plants? And are the particles just specks or shaped like something? And is your water clear otherwise? My guess is that it was either stirred up from the substrate or entered the tank via the new plants.

The newly added plants were all lightly bleached and then heavily washed before being added to the tank and it was present before their addition. It's possible that it's a kick-up from the substrate, but that does not explain why we see the particulate in between tank cleans, when everything should have settled.

The particles are defiantly specks, no discernible shape and they are the only thing ruining our otherwise clear water.

[Chrona]

The newly added plants were all lightly bleached and then heavily washed before being added to the tank and it was present before their addition. It's possible that it's a kick-up from the substrate, but that does not explain why we see the particulate in between tank cleans, when everything should have settled.

The particles are defiantly specks, no discernible shape and they are the only thing ruining our otherwise clear water.

And these specks persist through all of the weekly water changes? Interesting ..... >.>

I would say filter floss then. Although it's odd that it doesn't settle down or get caught up in the filter eventually.

[hungryhound]

It depends on the type of filtration too. You could put 100 HOB filters on a cloudy tank and it would never clear up because the rough pads on HOB's don't do micro particles. I think that is your situation here. Are these just specks on otherwise clear looking water? Or are there enough so the water actually looks kind of hazy? In either case, you should try some water clarifiers that clump particles. Make sure you do not have very soft water/low kH before adding it though. Or just stuff some filter floss wherever you can in the filter media compartment.

We have a GH of 12 and a KH of 5 (no soft water for us!).

Would the water clarifiers cause any problems with the plants?

Otherwise it looks like we go buy filter floss tomorrow.

[hungryhound]

beautiful gourami!thumbs2:

Thanksthumbs2:

[Chrona]

The water clarifier I use (Tetra Water Clarifier) doesn't do anything to plants except for the one time I used it to clear up the initial Flourite cloud. This resulted in a nice coating of dust on my plants, which subsequently caused the brown algae outbreak from hell :rolleyes:

I've been using it occasionally now that everything has settled down with no problems. I'm fairly certain most water clarifiers use the same aggregating chemical used for drinking water though, so none of them should hurt plants.

[hungryhound]

And these specks persist through all of the weekly water changes? Interesting ..... >.>

I would say filter floss then. Although it's odd that it doesn't settle down or get caught up in the filter eventually.

I guess the other question is could this be a result of our flake food? We are currently using Omega one super color flakes, but we are planning on switching over to the spiralina flakes when this runs out. Do you think switching the food would have an impact? As an aside we do also supplement their diets (treats include vegetables, bloodworms and brine shrimp (freeze dried and frozen))

[hungryhound]

The water clarifier I use (Tetra Water Clarifier) doesn't do anything to plants except for the one time I used it to clear up the initial Flourite cloud. This resulted in a nice coating of dust on my plants, which subsequently caused the brown algae outbreak from hell :rolleyes:

I've been using it occasionally now that everything has settled down with no problems. I'm fairly certain most water clarifiers use the same aggregating chemical used for drinking water though, so none of them should hurt plants.

Well, no worries about a brown algae outbreak from hell here, we're already living it! :P

I guess we'll try the water clarifier, and see if we can also track down some filter floss.

Thanks!

[Chrona]

I guess the other question is could this be a result of our flake food? We are currently using Omega one super color flakes, but we are planning on switching over to the spiralina flakes when this runs out. Do you think switching the food would have an impact? As an aside we do also supplement their diets (treats include vegetables, bloodworms and brine shrimp (freeze dried and frozen))

I suppose it's possible that the flake contains some indigestible material that is pooped out and doesn't decompose. I have had no experience with Omega One though, so I can't say.

What vegetables are you using and how long do you leave them in the tank for?

Since it persists through all the water changes, I guess we can narrow it down to something that is constantly added into the tank.

[Chrona]

As for your brown algae, I highly recommend some oto cats. SAE are probably better for all purpose cleanup, but oto cats seem to get the stuff on the glass much better.

[hungryhound]

I suppose it's possible that the flake contains some indigestible material that is pooped out and doesn't decompose. I have had no experience with Omega One though, so I can't say.

What vegetables are you using and how long do you leave them in the tank for?

Since it persists through all the water changes, I guess we can narrow it down to something that is constantly added into the tank.

The vegetables given are usually zucchini that are left in the water for less than 24hrs. We did make the mistake the first time of leaving it in for two days. I don't recommend this as zucchini disintegrates, and then turns your water green :P

The only thing that is constant (i.e. every day) are the flakes. They get flakes three times a day with the exception of Tues, Thurs and Sat when dinner is a "treat."

[hungryhound]

As for your brown algae, I highly recommend some oto cats. SAE are probably better for all purpose cleanup, but oto cats seem to get the stuff on the glass much better.

We have two wonderful SAEs, but unfortunately they can't keep up with the onslaught of brown algae. With adding the extra plants today we hope to slowly starve the brown algae. The glass gets cleaned regularly and everything else gets cleaned at water changes. As an aside we also have 5 Yoyo loaches (I know they don't eat brown algae, but one can hope).

[cocoa_pleco]

use some of that B-CLEAR product. I use it all the time after water changes. It makes the tank harmlessly clouded for a hour, and by 5 hours the tank is clear and all the small particles are clumped and in the filter floss

[Chrona]

You can try a different brand of flake food, although if that's the reason, Omega One must be pretty shoddy....or maybe it's just a bad batch.

I would just try the filter floss + water clarifier. The specks should go away after a few hours. If they come back, then you know something is up.

[hungryhound]

Thanks for the help Chrona and coco_pleco you've given us a great starting point. We'll be out looking for water clarifier and filter floss tomorrow, plus possible investing in some different flakes!

[cocoa_pleco]

thick floss and polywool does a great job like chrona said.

Chrona, dont you have a angel? its not in your profile.

[Chrona]

We have two wonderful SAEs, but unfortunately they can't keep up with the onslaught of brown algae. With adding the extra plants today we hope to slowly starve the brown algae. The glass gets cleaned regularly and everything else gets cleaned at water changes. As an aside we also have 5 Yoyo loaches (I know they don't eat brown algae, but one can hope).

I think it's the shape of the mouth. My brown algae decreased noticeably once I added one oto. After I added two more, the tank was pretty much clean. There is still some on the tank though, but the oto's fat bellies attests to the fact there would be MUCH more were they not there.

And you're welcome.

[Chrona]

thick floss and polywool does a great job like chrona said.

Chrona, dont you have a angel? its not in your profile.

Dropped the angel and SAE off at the LFS and switched in two otos and a dwarf gourami. The angel and SAE (who picked up a nasty habit of ramming the cardinals) were apparently stressing cardinals out, resulting in non-schoolage (lol @vocabulary) and fin biting amongst them. They are all fine now. The angel was getting too big for a 10g anyways.

[Lady Hobbs]

Have a run a brush up thru your uptake tube lately? Could be it's full of gunk and not cleaning the stuff from your water as it should.

[hungryhound]

We're almost at stocking capacity now at least when you look at their full grown size. So adding another algae eater isn't feasible at this time, but we'll defiantly keep the suggestion in mind when setting up our next tank!

[Chrona]

We're almost at stocking capacity now at least when you look at their full grown size. So adding another algae eater isn't feasible at this time, but we'll defiantly keep the suggestion in mind when setting up our next tank!

Adding 3 oto cats in a 46g tank would add minimally to the bioload. Plus, they don't take up much room and are fairly inactive. And you have a planted tank. Come on, you know you want to ^_^

[hungryhound]

Have a run a brush up thru your uptake tube lately? Could be it's full of gunk and not cleaning the stuff from your water as it should.


Good idea....how far up the intake are you talking. We did take the in take off that extends down into the tank and washed it today (mainly to get the brown algae off), but we did not run a brush up towards the motor.

What would we need to do this (i.e. a pipecleaner??? or do they sell an aquarium specific tool?)

[Chrona]

They have these fuzzy brushes on a long, flexible metal wire at my LFS. I just use chopsticks and paper towel though :rolleyes:

[hungryhound]

Adding 3 oto cats in a 46g tank would add minimally to the bioload. Plus, they don't take up much room and are fairly inactive. And you have a planted tank. Come on, you know you want to ^_^

LOL

But we already have 7 bottom dwelling fish (2 SAEs and 5 Yoyo loaches) and 10 other fish (Rainbows, Dwarf Gouramis and Zebra Danios) who all think they're bottom dwellers (don't ask us why our zebras aren't running the Indianapolis 500 everyday around the top of the tank!).:hmm3grin2orange:

[hungryhound]

They have these fuzzy brushes on a long, flexible metal wire at my LFS. I just use chopsticks and paper towel though :rolleyes:

The intake goes up into the filter and makes a 180 degree turn before it reaches the impeller. Do we need to clean all the way to the impeller, if so, I don't think chopsticks are going to cut it, lol.

[hungryhound]

Darn you Chrona...you've got us looking at oto cats....the only problem is that my wife thinks this guy Otocinclus Catfish is ugly. Is this the only species?

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Chrona]

LOL

But we already have 7 bottom dwelling fish (2 SAEs and 5 Yoyo loaches) and 10 other fish (Rainbows, Dwarf Gouramis and Zebra Danios) who all think they're bottom dwellers (don't ask us why our zebras aren't running the Indianapolis 500 everyday around the top of the tank!).:hmm3grin2orange:

lol, the heck? Perhaps they are scared of the lights? I noticed my cardinals don't like to swim near the mid-top either, since putting in my new lights.

The intake goes up into the filter and makes a 180 degree turn before it reaches the impeller. Do we need to clean all the way to the impeller, if so, I don't think chopsticks are going to cut it, lol.

Can you clean from both ends? 180 degree bend is gonna be tough, regardless of what cleaning device you use. And yes, you gotta get it all clean, since it'll be the "weakest link" and impede flow. If it's just brown algae that growing in the filter though, it won't constrict the flow much.

[hungryhound]

lol, the heck? Perhaps they are scared of the lights? I noticed my cardinals don't like to swim near the mid-top either, since putting in my new lights.

With the addition of the new plants today we turned on the other 96 watt bulb in our light strip. If they were afraid before, they must think the sun has exploded now! Ironically they're now spending more time at the top.

Can you clean from both ends? 180 degree bend is gonna be tough, regardless of what cleaning device you use. And yes, you gotta get it all clean, since it'll be the "weakest link" and impede flow. If it's just brown algae that growing in the filter though, it won't constrict the flow much.

Yes I can take it apart and clean it from both ends....Ockham's Razor still holds true (the simplest solution is typically the best).

[Chrona]

- Yep, thats the only oto cat. Good thing is that they don't tend to stick to the front glass that much, and when they do, it's at the bottom (at least for me). I lose mine all the time, and I only have a 10g, so I just consider them a great behind the scene cleanup crew. The SAE's would then fit the profile of the glamorized celebrity algae eater that's at the forefront ;)

- Wowza, another 96 watts? I'm assuming the other bulb is 96 watts as well. Are you injecting CO2? That will be absolutely crucial with the amount of light you have now. Depending on your plant mass, you will most likely need to start dosing dry fertilizer as well with 4 watts/g. I only have 28 watts over my heavily stocked, well fed 10g and I add 5 ppm of nitrates every other day and it still stays steady at 15 ppm. If you up the light without upping CO2 and nutrients for the plants to take advantage of it, you are going to have a lot of other algae issues.

I don't mean to make this sound difficult btw, it's rather easy, especially since you already do weekly water changes. The EI method of dosing doesn't require you to test water parameters after the initial test. You just need to buy some dry ferts, some trace mix, and maybe some chelated iron.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

If you don't feel like reading the whole thing, I can just give you the jist of it. Tom Barr tends to ramble anyways :rolleyes:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

You will want KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4. Most recommend you use Flourish or Tropica Master Grow instead of the Plantex for trace though.

[hungryhound]

- Yep, thats the only oto cat. Good thing is that they don't tend to stick to the front glass that much, and when they do, it's at the bottom (at least for me). I lose mine all the time, and I only have a 10g, so I just consider them a great behind the scene cleanup crew. The SAE's would then fit the profile of the glamorized celebrity algae eater that's at the forefront ;)

- Wowza, another 96 watts? I'm assuming the other bulb is 96 watts as well. Are you injecting CO2? That will be absolutely crucial with the amount of light you have now. Depending on your plant mass, you will most likely need to start dosing dry fertilizer as well with 4 watts/g. I only have 28 watts over my heavily stocked, well fed 10g and I add 5 ppm of nitrates every other day and it still stays steady at 15 ppm. If you up the light without upping CO2 and nutrients for the plants to take advantage of it, you are going to have a lot of other algae issues.

The CO2 injecting is not currently up and running. I am waiting on my reactor to come in the mail before I set it up. I expect it to be here by tommarow and Monday at the latest, which means the CO2 should be running by no later than Tuesday.


I don't mean to make this sound difficult btw, it's rather easy, especially since you already do weekly water changes. The EI method of dosing doesn't require you to test water parameters after the initial test. You just need to buy some dry ferts, some trace mix, and maybe some chelated iron.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

You will want KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4. Most recommend you use Flourish or Tropica Master Grow instead of the Plantex for trace though.

We are currently adding Flourish at our weekly water changes. But you are saying this is not enough we need potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate and potassium sulfate as well. I guess I will have to look into this.

Either that, or I can change out one bulb to acitinic.

[Chrona]

The CO2 injecting is not currently up and running. I am waiting on my reactor to come in the mail before I set it up. I expect it to be here by tommarow and Monday at the latest, which means the CO2 should be running by no later than Tuesday.

We are currently adding Flourish at our weekly water changes. But you are saying this is not enough we need potassium nitrate, potassium phosphate and potassium sulfate as well. I guess I will have to look into this.

Either that, or I can change out one bulb to acitinic.

I would recommend adding the manufacturer dosage of Flourish every other day once the CO2 is in place. The dosage on that bottle only applies for lightly planted tanks with low lighting and the plants like the continuous flow. As for the actinic bulb, this is widely debated, but back when I had a 50/50 bulb in my fixture (it comes with it), my anubias nana were growing 2 new leaves a week, which is lidicrous growth speed for that species. My other plants didn't seem to respond in that manner, but it's something to keep in mind if you are aiming at decreasing wattage, since actinic bulbs do cover one of plant's absorption peak. Plus, actinic gives an unnatural, bluish look to your tank imo.

See this photo (50/50 bulb)
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compared to 6700k bulbs (looks a little yellow in the picture actually, which makes me think a 6700/10000k mix would be the best.)
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[hungryhound]

I would recommend adding the manufacturer dosage of Flourish every other day once the CO2 is in place. The dosage on that bottle only applies for lightly planted tanks with low lighting and the plants like the continuous flow. As for the actinic bulb, this is widely debated, but back when I had a 50/50 bulb in my fixture (it comes with it), my anubias nana were growing 2 new leaves a week, which is lidicrous growth speed for that species. My other plants didn't seem to respond in that manner, but it's something to keep in mind if you are aiming at decreasing wattage, since actinic bulbs do cover one of plant's absorption peak. Plus, actinic gives an unnatural, bluish look to your tank imo.

See this photo (50/50 bulb)
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

compared to 6700k bulbs (looks a little yellow in the picture actually, which makes me think a 6700/10000k mix would be the best.)
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Thanks for the photos, it's nice to have something to compare to.

Currently both of our bulbs are 10000k, which provides a very bright, clear light (our fish tank gives off more light than our lamp with a 150W bulb!) Not sure what we're going to do, I think we're going to have to wait and see how well we do at balancing our nutrients.

It's going to take us a while to go through the 2 links on fertilizers that you posted, but luckily I have access to laboratory chemicals and can pick these chemicals up locally. First I need to see what it is I need.

Again, thanks for all the suggestions!

[hungryhound]

We picked up some Tetra water clarifier today and I just dumped the dosage in (that was an interesting effect!). We looked for filter floss today and all we could find was filter fiber. Are these one in the same or are we looking for something different?

As an aside we also picked-up some spirilia flakes and are going to give those a try.

Thanks

[Chrona]

We picked up some Tetra water clarifier today and I just dumped the dosage in (that was an interesting effect!). We looked for filter floss today and all we could find was filter fiber. Are these one in the same or are we looking for something different?

As an aside we also picked-up some spirilia flakes and are going to give those a try.

Thanks

Do you have any kind of meaty food or flakes? Spirulina is a great supplement, but omnivores also need the protein from meats.

If it looks like a big wad of cotton balls (but feels like polyester of course), then it's the same thing.

[hungryhound]

Do you have any kind of meaty food or flakes? Spirulina is a great supplement, but omnivores also need the protein from meats.

We still have the omega one flakes, which we might try doing once a day. We also have treats that they get in place f a single meal once a week (Tues, Thurs and Sat). This includes freezedried bloodworms, frozen brine shrimp, and freeze dried brine shrimp.

If it looks like a big wad of cotton balls (but feels like polyester of course), then it's the same thing.

It sounds like the filter fiber is the same thing as the filter floss, so we'll plan another trip out this weekend!

[Swayde]

Would fiber fill be okay to use? That is the polyester filling that you use in craft stuff to make stuffed animals and squishy dolls.

[hungryhound]

Would fiber fill be okay to use? That is the polyester filling that you use in craft stuff to make stuffed animals and squishy dolls.

I'm not sure if you could use that or not.....

Oh, Chrona.....we decided to add 2 Oto cats today and we can already see a 1.5inch area where he (or she) has taken off the algae (they're quickly becoming my hero and might just have to go get another one)!

[Chrona]

I'm not sure if you could use that or not.....

Oh, Chrona.....we decided to add 2 Oto cats today and we can already see a 1.5inch area where he (or she) has taken off the algae (they're quickly becoming my hero and might just have to go get another one)!

See? Told you :)

Swayde - I'm not sure how that will hold up. Filter floss generally clumps easily, so you don't get all kinds of loose strands in your tank. You can give it a short (make sure to wash it thoroughly and dump some water conditioner/neutralizer for good measure, but filter floss is only like 2 bucks for a big bag at the LFS so why bother?

[hungryhound]

:) Now if only the haze would clear (we're trying to water clarifier)....we could wake up to a really amazing tank tomorrow (read this little algae and clear water)!

[Chrona]

:) Now if only the haze would clear (we're trying to water clarifier)....we could wake up to a really amazing tank tomorrow (read this little algae and clear water)!

lol, cloudy water maybe, but the algae will probably take a bit longer :) My 3 otos are still fighting back brown algae, and their plump stomachs show just how much they are eating each day.

[hungryhound]

lol, cloudy water maybe, but the algae will probably take a bit longer :) My 3 otos are still fighting back brown algae, and their plump stomachs show just how much they are eating each day.

Sigh.....I guess I should be happy that they're making progress (smiles at the prospect of having a cleaner tank). The SAEs were in the tank before the brown algae even got out of hand and they've not gotten anywhere with it.

[Swayde]

See? Told you :)

Swayde - I'm not sure how that will hold up. Filter floss generally clumps easily, so you don't get all kinds of loose strands in your tank. You can give it a short (make sure to wash it thoroughly and dump some water conditioner/neutralizer for good measure, but filter floss is only like 2 bucks for a big bag at the LFS so why bother?


I have several very large bags of 100% polyester fiber fill taking up storage space in my spare room. My mom gave it to me after some big Sunday School project she did because I like to crochet and wanted to make some dolls with it. But I have TONS of it. So anyhow I rinsed some out and it held together really well and am giving it a try, so far it seems to be working well. So yes, I could go spend more money on my fish tank, or I could use up stuff that is here already and save myself a little bit of cash =) BTW, it's not cheap quality fiber fill, it's top dollar stuff and it was free ;)

It took my Otos about 3 days to totally wipe out any visible traces of brown aglae, and it had been pretty much everywhere.

[Lady Hobbs]

Just my 2 cents. I haven't read all the posts here so may be behind the times in this thread.

I clean my uptake tubes about once a month. I have a flex brush that runs all the way thru it. You'd be surprised at the crap that clogs up that bend. I actually take my filters to the kitchen sink and clean all the gunk out of them. In a well cycled tank, this is no problem.

I also use filter floss. The crap they have a WalMart is awful and little pieces float around in the tank. It has too much polyester in it for my taste but it can be stuffed in a filter bag. I got a kind at PetSmart that you cut with scissors and it's a denser product and works very well. It doesn't get caught around the bio-wheel and doesn't get lost in the tank. I think it gets the finer particles out of the water much nicer than filter inserts made for your filter. (I don't use charcoal so don't use them anyway.)

About the Water Clarifier. I don't know what the deal is when I used this but my pH showed less than 5. Actually, my tester didn't even go low enough to give a true result. My gosh, it must have taken me 30 water changes before it was all out of my tank. I have no idea of what this was about and possibly this product only gave a false reading and the pH did not actually drop. But it did scare me!

So, I decided I would test it again without putting it in the tank. I drew out a bucket of water from my tap, adding one drop of clarifier and darned if I didn't get a pH that went right in the toilet again. Since my fish all survived this long ordeal with this clarifier, I have to believe that I just got a false reading. I emailed the company (Tetra) about this great change in my pH since it claims to not affect your pH but never heard back from them.

But regardless, this stuff made me nervous and as previously mentioned, it took a long time to get my pH reading back to where it should be.

Omaga One is considered a good fish food. I don't believe this is your problem but more of a filtering problem.

[Chrona]

Just my 2 cents. I haven't read all the posts here so may be behind the times in this thread.

I clean my uptake tubes about once a month. I have a flex brush that runs all the way thru it. You'd be surprised at the crap that clogs up that bend. I actually take my filters to the kitchen sink and clean all the gunk out of them. In a well cycled tank, this is no problem.

I also use filter floss. The crap they have a WalMart is awful and little pieces float around in the tank. It has too much polyester in it for my taste but it can be stuffed in a filter bag. I got a kind at PetSmart that you cut with scissors and it's a denser product and works very well. It doesn't get caught around the bio-wheel and doesn't get loss in the tank. I think it gets the finer particles out of the water much nicer than filter inserts made for your filter. (I don't use charcoal so don't use them anyway.)

About the Water Clarifier. I don't know what the deal is when I used this but my pH showed less than 5. Actually, my tester didn't even go low enough to give a true result. My gosh, it must have taken me 30 water changes before it was all out of my tank. I have no idea of what this was about and possibly this product only gave a false reading and the pH did not actually drop. But it did scare me!

So, I decided I would test it again without putting it in the tank. I drew out a bucket of water from my tap, adding one drop of clarifier and darned if I didn't get a pH that went right in the toilet again. Since my fish all survived this long ordeal with this clarifier, I have to believe that I just got a false reading. I emailed the company (Tetra) about this great change in my pH since it claims to not affect your pH but never heard back from them.

But regardless, this stuff made me nervous and as previously mentioned, it too a long time to get my pH reading back to where it should be.

Omaga One is considered a good fish food. I don't believe this is your problem but more of a filtering problem.

Hobbs - Water clarifiers shouldn't be used in extremely low kH situations, even the Tetra Water Clarifier (it actually says it on the packaging), so I would test your kH. Failing that, I would assume the water clarifier does something to your test kit, as I've never had any issues (Aside from the Flourite dust incident)

[hungryhound]

Sorry it took so long to reply to this thread.

Just my 2 cents. I haven't read all the posts here so may be behind the times in this thread.

I clean my uptake tubes about once a month. I have a flex brush that runs all the way thru it. You'd be surprised at the crap that clogs up that bend. I actually take my filters to the kitchen sink and clean all the gunk out of them. In a well cycled tank, this is no problem.

I cleaned out 75 percent of the intake, just not the u-bend. I will make sure that I give it a good scrubbing at my next water change.



I also use filter floss. The crap they have a WalMart is awful and little pieces float around in the tank. It has too much polyester in it for my taste but it can be stuffed in a filter bag. I got a kind at PetSmart that you cut with scissors and it's a denser product and works very well. It doesn't get caught around the bio-wheel and doesn't get loss in the tank. I think it gets the finer particles out of the water much nicer than filter inserts made for your filter. (I don't use charcoal so don't use them anyway.)

We added filter floss as in addition to our regular filter. It does seem to help.

I do have a couple of questions about the use of charcoal.

I understand that charcoal is used to remove any containments from the water. I am not sure on all of the chemistry involved with caring for plants, but I do wonder if some of the nutrients in flourish or other trace elements react with the charcoal removing them from the water column.

Does Charcoal remove any nutrients needed by the plants fromt he water?



I am going to skip the next to paragraphs of your post as chrona has already covered them, and I could not add anything remotely intelligent to the discussion.



Omaga One is considered a good fish food. I don't believe this is your problem but more of a filtering problem.

We are still using it, and hopefully the filtration takes care of the problem.

[Lady Hobbs]

I wouldn't be unhappy if Fluorite contained a bit of clay to give it a heavier base. It doesn't take much to get a good cloud going and I'm having a terrible time keeping my plants down. I wonder if it could be possible your uplift tube is too near the bottom and picking up particles of Fluorite and distributing them back into the water?

Just taking wild guesses because I obviously don't know what could be giving you this problem.

Chrona.......my water is HARD! And I mean hard!

[Chrona]

I wouldn't be unhappy if Fluorite contained a bit of clay to give it a heavier base. It doesn't take much to get a good cloud going and I'm having a terrible time keeping my plants down. I wonder if it could be possible your uplift tube is too near the bottom and picking up particles of Fluorite and distributing them back into the water?

Just taking wild guesses because I obviously don't know what could be giving you this problem.

Chrona.......my water is HARD! And I mean hard!

Yes but hardness does not equate to high kH. I ran into the same problem, as my water is like liquid brick, but my kH is pretty low (like 2 dH) so I need to add baking soda. You should get it tested just in case. Hard water generally refers to the GH or the general hardness, which is the calcium and magnesium content of the water, whereas the kH or alkalinity is the the carbonate content

Hungryhound - In my experience, activated carbon does strip the water of some trace elements needed for plant growth, and possibly chelated iron, which you add via Flourish. Thus I have not used activated carbon for some time. The only time I'll use it is to remove meds, and only for about 24 hours, after which I redose Flourish.

[hungryhound]

Hungryhound - In my experience, activated carbon does strip the water of some trace elements needed for plant growth, and possibly chelated iron, which you add via Flourish. Thus I have not used activated carbon for some time. The only time I'll use it is to remove meds, and only for about 24 hours, after which I redose Flourish.

Thanks for the info. We most likely will do without the carbon in the filters, when the filters currently in the tank need changed.

We have another question with the cloudiness issue. We have had a couple of goods things happen and a couple of bad things. The brown algae problem that has plagued our tank for a month appears to be receding. Thanks to the 5 otto cats or the removal of silicates from the water.

Unfortunately, we have just swapped one type of algae for another. Our water is starting to turn green. Am I correct in assuming that this is a result of us turning on the other 96watt bulb (Friday, 196 watts total at 10,000 k now), and the addition flourish (Saturday) and Co2 to the tank (yesterday) has caused the algae to take advantage of the situation before the plants can?

Will the plants be able to correct this problem or do we need to start taking precautions? (i.e. backing down on the light?).

[Chrona]

Thanks for the info. We most likely will do without the carbon in the filters, when the filters currently in the tank need changed.

We have another question with the cloudiness issue. We have had a couple of goods things happen and a couple of bad things. The brown algae problem that has plagued our tank for a month appears to be receding. Thanks to the 5 otto cats or the removal of silicates from the water.

Unfortunately, we have just swapped one type of algae for another. Our water is starting to turn green. Am I correct in assuming that this is a result of us turning on the other 96watt bulb (Friday, 196 watts total at 10,000 k now), and the addition flourish (Saturday) and Co2 to the tank (yesterday) has caused the algae to take advantage of the situation before the plants can?

Will the plants be able to correct this problem or do we need to start taking precautions? (i.e. backing down on the light?).

Interestingly enough, I am going through the same issues :) The brown algae is eventually outcompeted by the green dust algae under higher light, so the brown->green algae phases are normal for a high light planted tank. There really isn't much you can do about the green algae however, but since it mostly only grows on the glass, manual removal for the 1-3 weeks that it will be in your tank is pretty simple. Not much is known about this particular type of algae, but it appears that nutrient levels do not play a role. The algae gets in via spores, so a scraping before each water change will remove some of spores in the tank and it will eventually go away. It happens every so often in high light high nutrient tanks. Note that it doesn't effect the plants or the fish at all, so it's really just an aesthetic thing.

If you can't wait, your can try Algaefix, but keep in mind most algae killing chemicals use copper sulfate, which is a fairly toxic chemical to plants and fish alike. Algaefix is claimed to be safe for plants and fish, but I am skeptical that they found some miracle chemical. Lastly, a UV sterilizer is a solid-all round cure for many forms of algae, but is a costly investment.

Are you adding any additional fertilizer? With higher light and CO2, plants usually uptake nitrates and phosphates at a faster rate than fish waste and food can provide. Low nitrates will cause an outbreak of blue-green algae (which is pretty easy to get rid of via 24 hour blackout) but low phosphates + high light will cause green spot algae (as I've experienced) which is a PITA to get rid of manually on glass (need to use a razor) and basically impossible to get rid of manually on plants. I would recommend reducing the photoperiod to 8 hours a day to reduce the chance of this until you get some dry fertilizer (this stuff will probably be the cheapest thing you buy from now on, as 2 lbs of KNO3 and 1lb of the KH2PO4 and Potassium Sulfate will last a looooooong time.)

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

One more thing, make sure your CO2 rig is putting out at least 1-2 bubbles a second for your tank to provide enough CO2. My CO2 died the other day (slowed down at first, then died completely after 24 hours I guess) and I had a bit of brush algae start growing, so you want to keep your CO2 levels up. Additionally, if you have low nitrates AND low CO2 you risk getting cladophora, which is absolutely PAINFUL to get rid of from what I've heard. Think java moss but more invasive and harder to remove.

Is your wife shaking her head yet?

[Chrona]

Er, my last post may not have been clear. To elaborate, here's the chart I refer to:

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Note everything here assumes that your setup has the capability to coax vigorous plant growth, ie CO2, med-high lighting, fertilization. As such, it ONLY applies to a planted tank.

Basically, here's how you should interpret this chart, and this is crucial because I got mixed up with this too before:

Ex. Green Spot Algae - Causes: low phosphates - Solution: Add phosphates

What this is actually telling you is not necessarily that you have too little phosphates, but too much of everything else in relation to phosphates and given your lighting. Thus, because phosphate becomes a limiting factor in plant growth, algae gains a foothold. Again, this assumes that your plants are healthy and growing. Adding phosphates to a low light tank with no CO2 will probably aggravate the situation. So the real cause behind algae is not necessarily too much of a certain nutrient, but an imbalance in the nutrient levels. There have been studies showing that a healthy plants growing at a healthy speed releases some something that inhibits algae growth, so you are correct in that healthy plants are the ultimate solution against algae, but they certainly need some help getting to that stage.

Note that algae involving silicates mean exactly what is written, ie high silicates simply means you have excess silicates ;)

[hungryhound]

Is your wife shaking her head yet?

Funny you should ask this as my husband is actually on the road tonight and left me in charge of checking the board. I just shared your post with him and his comment was...."so I have to figure out the dry fert."

I would defiantly agree that at this point we just have an imbalance of everything. The plants are probably still trying to establish themselves as they were only planted this weekend. In addition Co@ injection is also new (this evening will be 24hrs of having set it up). To be quite honest I'm not sure of the status of that. My husband has been monitoring the pH and so far no change (but this could also be a result of the baking soda added).

And yes...I'm shaking my head, but having fun (now if only we could see our fish clearly!)

[Chrona]

Funny you should ask this as my husband is actually on the road tonight and left me in charge of checking the board. I just shared your post with him and his comment was...."so I have to figure out the dry fert."

I would defiantly agree that at this point we just have an imbalance of everything. The plants are probably still trying to establish themselves as they were only planted this weekend. In addition Co@ injection is also new (this evening will be 24hrs of having set it up). To be quite honest I'm not sure of the status of that. My husband has been monitoring the pH and so far no change (but this could also be a result of the baking soda added).

And yes...I'm shaking my head, but having fun (now if only we could see our fish clearly!)

lol ;)

Is CO2 coming out and going into the reactor yet?

The pH should ideally drop by exactly 1 degree. Assuming that there are no other acid/basic buffers (from commercial products), this will mean that you have exactly 30ppm of CO2, which is the ideal level for a planted tank with fish. The kH does not impact how much the pH changes due to CO2, but the addition of it ensures that there is always some buffering ability in the water, since CO2 tends to eat away at the alkalinity (kH), which, when gone, will result in some major pH swings.

Also, I can't remember, but are you using any kind of pH changing chemical?

[hungryhound]

lol ;)

Is CO2 coming out and going into the reactor yet?

The pH should ideally drop by exactly 1 degree. Assuming that there are no other acid/basic buffers (from commercial products), this will mean that you have exactly 30ppm of CO2, which is the ideal level for a planted tank with fish. The kH does not impact how much the pH changes due to CO2, but the addition of it ensures that there is always some buffering ability in the water, since CO2 tends to eat away at the alkalinity (kH), which, when gone, will result in some major pH swings.

Also, I can't remember, but are you using any kind of pH changing chemical?

I have no idea if Co2 is coming out of the reactor. It's been in the tank since last night and has been doing it's little whirly thing (I swear the otto cats were playing in it tonight), but beyond that I don't know. Is their an easy way to tell if Co2 is coming out?

My husband checked the pH early this afternoon and had commented that it had not changed. I have strict instructions to check it again tonight before I go to bed. We've added no buffering chemicals to the tank and thus have made no attempt to lower our pH.

My husband will come home tomorrow and probably get a good chuckle out of all of this :)

[Chrona]

I have no idea if Co2 is coming out of the reactor. It's been in the tank since last night and has been doing it's little whirly thing (I swear the otto cats were playing in it tonight), but beyond that I don't know. Is their an easy way to tell if Co2 is coming out?

My husband checked the pH early this afternoon and had commented that it had not changed. I have strict instructions to check it again tonight before I go to bed. We've added no buffering chemicals to the tank and thus have made no attempt to lower our pH.

My husband will come home tomorrow and probably get a good chuckle out of all of this :)

I would pull the tubing that feeds the reactor CO2 and drop it in the water. Time the bubbles, for your tank you should be getting about 1-2 bubbles per second. Wait another 24 hours for production to be at full capacity, check it again, and if it's still not high enough, add another 1/4 teaspoon of yeast mixed with warm water and repeat until you get enough CO2 coming out. Then, just remember how much yeast you had to add for future reference. If none is coming out after 24 hours, I would double check all the fittings for leaks. Soapy water works best for leak detection, but make sure to wash everything thouroughly though. Make sure to save the yeast solution, as it is still perfectly fine.

[hungryhound]

I just got back from taking a entrance test to try and work for the federal government, but I think trying to figure out my tank will be ten times harder. :)

I think that first I am going to go through and answer all questions that were asked.

Is CO2 coming out and going into the reactor yet?

Yes CO2 is coming into the reactor. I took the hose and stuck it in the water and I couldn’t count the bubbles that were coming out. I am going to believe that this is plenty fast enough and I may have to use my needle valve to if it starts to stay in solution.

[quote=Chrona] The pH should ideally drop by exactly 1 degree. Assuming that there are no other acid/basic buffers (from commercial products), this will mean that you have exactly 30ppm of CO2, which is the ideal level for a planted tank with fish. [/chrona]


This blurb is a little confusing, as it appears to be inaccurate to me. Because if I am reading the chart correctly, getting the pH to drop one full degree will not guarantee a 30 ppm CO2 concentration in the tank as the function of CO2 in the tank is not a direct proportion. To me looking at the chart I need to get the pH to 7.0 to have a Carbonate concentration of 15. (Which is the magic number I have read in most places).

So that is my goal. To get the pH down to 7.0 which will give me a Carbonate concentration in solution of 15 ppm.

Now with that being said I think that problem I am having is that there is too much surface agitation causing me to lose “my precious “ (As I lovingly pretend to stroke the CO2 gas) CO2 gas to the atmosphere. Good thing my apartment isn’t the size of a coffee cup or I would have asphyxiated myself by now.

I don’t have any oxygen going in so this cannot be a problem. The water line has been raised to above the outflow of the HOB filter, and I am skeptical that the water outflow from the filter is the problem.

My current theory is that the biowheels are causing the CO2 to be lost to the atmosphere. I think that I am going to take them out as the tank is over a month old and heavily planted now and should be able to handle the waste removal without them.

Hopefully this will fix my CO2 problem. (Crosses fingers and rocks back and forth, ala the Atlanta Braves old pitching coach, and prays that it works.) Which would give me two parts of the equation complete: lighting and CO2. Leaving me with the giant hypotenuse side of the triangle to figure out, minerals and fertilizer, but I think that is another thread.

P.S. It isn’t to early to throw out baseball references is it?

[Chrona]

I just got back from taking a entrance test to try and work for the federal government, but I think trying to figure out my tank will be ten times harder. :)

I think that first I am going to go through and answer all questions that were asked.


Yes CO2 is coming into the reactor. I took the hose and stuck it in the water and I couldn’t count the bubbles that were coming out. I am going to believe that this is plenty fast enough and I may have to use my needle valve to if it starts to stay in solution.

Good plan. You may want to add less yeast in the next batch of solutions, since if you can't count how many bubbles are coming out a second or a minute, then it's too much (for medium tanks) A needle valve will work, but keep in mind the rest of your system is just siliconed together, and will not hold together like a metal pressurized system

[quote=Chrona] The pH should ideally drop by exactly 1 degree. Assuming that there are no other acid/basic buffers (from commercial products), this will mean that you have exactly 30ppm of CO2, which is the ideal level for a planted tank with fish. [/chrona]


This blurb is a little confusing, as it appears to be inaccurate to me. Because if I am reading the chart correctly, getting the pH to drop one full degree will not guarantee a 30 ppm CO2 concentration in the tank as the function of CO2 in the tank is not a direct proportion. To me looking at the chart I need to get the pH to 7.0 to have a Carbonate concentration of 15. (Which is the magic number I have read in most places).

Via the degassing method for testing CO2 - where you let tank water sit for 24 hours and measure pH before and after to determine CO2 levels, a pH increase of 1.0 indicates 30ppm of CO2 in the tank water. Thus, working backwards, if your tank water drops by 1.0 after CO injection, you know you are adding exactly 30ppm of CO2. Everything here, again assumes the only buffering system you have in the tank is CO2, and carbonate. How much has your pH dropped by? The chart and the degassing method are not entirely accurate either, so the best solution is an in-tank drop checker that uses a precise kH standard to determine CO2 concentration (which is only a few bucks anyways and probably cheaper in the long run than all the kH and pH tests you'll perform) I can pm you a link to the one I am getting if you are interested.

So that is my goal. To get the pH down to 7.0 which will give me a Carbonate concentration in solution of 15 ppm.

Careful with that. Most planted tank owners using CO2 injection keep their kH at around 4.0 -4.5 dH, which is the equivalent to about 150-180 ppm. 15 ppm is REALLY low, and is not a sufficient buffer as the CO2 eats away at it over the course of a few days. And you should be aiming for 30ppm. High light and lower concentrations of CO2 leads to brush algae. Fish can handle CO2 concentrations up to like 40-50 before showing signs of stress, so it leaves a nice safety margin

Now with that being said I think that problem I am having is that there is too much surface agitation causing me to lose “my precious “ (As I lovingly pretend to stroke the CO2 gas) CO2 gas to the atmosphere. Good thing my apartment isn’t the size of a coffee cup or I would have asphyxiated myself by now.

lol

I don’t have any oxygen going in so this cannot be a problem. The water line has been raised to above the outflow of the HOB filter, and I am skeptical that the water outflow from the filter is the problem.

My current theory is that the biowheels are causing the CO2 to be lost to the atmosphere. I think that I am going to take them out as the tank is over a month old and heavily planted now and should be able to handle the waste removal without them.

Exactly what I was going to suggest. Biowheels cause for unstable CO2 levels

Hopefully this will fix my CO2 problem. (Crosses fingers and rocks back and forth, ala the Atlanta Braves old pitching coach, and prays that it works.) Which would give me two parts of the equation complete: lighting and CO2. Leaving me with the giant hypotenuse side of the triangle to figure out, minerals and fertilizer, but I think that is another thread.

Fertilizing is actually the easiest step. Using the EI method of dosing, it's really a no brainer

P.S. It isn’t to early to throw out baseball references is it?

I don't follow baseball :P



Hope that helped

[hungryhound]

Good plan. You may want to add less yeast in the next batch of solutions, since if you can't count how many bubbles are coming out a second or a minute, then it's too much (for medium tanks) A needle valve will work, but keep in mind the rest of your system is just siliconed together, and will not hold together like a metal pressurized system

I agree. My reactor has a needle valve on it and it was set to half. when I disconnected it from this I could hear the gas escaping. Which kind of scarred me, so I opened up the needle valve all the way.

It might have been that there was still residual pressure in the system that made it imposable for me to cont the bubbles. I mean i did get two bubbles but they were each about 6 cm across lol:)

I will check it again later to see if I can get a better read on the situation.

Via the degassing method for testing CO2 - where you let tank water sit for 24 hours and measure pH before and after to determine CO2 levels, a pH increase of 1.0 indicates 30ppm of CO2 in the tank water. Thus, working backwards, if your tank water drops by 1.0 after CO injection, you know you are adding exactly 30ppm of CO2. Everything here, again assumes the only buffering system you have in the tank is CO2, and carbonate. How much has your pH dropped by? The chart and the degassing method are not entirely accurate either, so the best solution is an in-tank drop checker that uses a precise kH standard to determine CO2 concentration (which is only a few bucks anyways and probably cheaper in the long run than all the kH and pH tests you'll perform) I can pm you a link to the one I am getting if you are interested.

Okay that makes a whole lot more sense. I was going by the chart that estimates your co2 and you were using tis method. No wonder our readings did not match up.

Careful with that. Most planted tank owners using CO2 injection keep their kH at around 4.0 -4.5 dH, which is the equivalent to about 150-180 ppm. 15 ppm is REALLY low, and is not a sufficient buffer as the CO2 eats away at it over the course of a few days. And you should be aiming for 30ppm. High light and lower concentrations of CO2 leads to brush algae. Fish can handle CO2 concentrations up to like 40-50 before showing signs of stress, so it leaves a nice safety margin

I am sorry but what you have written here confuses me and I do not see what you mean in the table. I think my biggest problem is that your data is not labled.

What do the following values refer to.

150-180 ppm of ??????
15 ppm ???? Are we talking CO2 levels or kH buffer levels
30 PPm (c02 I think)

Then my question becomes how do I even get a co2 level of 30. Looking at the chart with my kH of 5 I would need a pH of 6.7. Is this what I should be shooting for.

P.S. It isn’t to early to throw out baseball references is it?

I don't follow baseball :P

Tell me you atleast got my Lord of the Ring reference from earlier. :}

Thanks for your help and patience with me.


[

[Chrona]

What do the following values refer to.

150-180 ppm of ?????? kH, or alkalinity, aka carbonates in the water that act as a buffer
15 ppm ???? Are we talking CO2 levels or kH buffer levels You said your carbonates was at 15ppm right?
30 PPm (c02 I think) correct :D

Then my question becomes how do I even get a co2 level of 30. Looking at the chart with my kH of 5 I would need a pH of 6.7. Is this what I should be shooting for.

The easiest way to do this is to know what the pH of your tank water was before CO2. Continue to up the CO2 output until the pH drop is exactly 1.0. You need to be careful with that amount of CO2 coming out though, as with an efficient reactor (I forget which reactor you have - my eyes are starting to hurt :P ), it is very possible to overshoot 30ppm CO2. Past 45 or so ppm CO2, your fish will start gasping for air, which is easy to remedy with an air pump, but it stresses them out. And prolonged exposure to high CO2 levels of course, leads to death. This is pretty easy to judge though. If you have a decent amount of buffering capability, and your pH ever drops more than 1.0 from the original pH, then you know to cut back on CO2 and put in an air pump temporarily.



Tell me you atleast got my Lord of the Ring reference from earlier. :}

Yeah I saw that :)

Thanks for your help and patience with me.


[

No problem

[Chrona]

Hold on, lemme try to explain the chart

Basically, for a given amount of kH, your water pH will be X. A kH of 4 dH (~150 ppm) will cause a pH of about 7.5. When you look at the chart, the pH's listed are the pH AFTER CO2 injection. So for your given kH (4.0), you find where your pH is currently at. If you'll notice, a kH of 4.0 and a pH of 6.6 indicates CO2 levels of 30ppm. Since we started at 7.5, the pH drop we experienced was about 0.9 degrees. So a pH drop of 0.9 (roughly) equates to 30ppm of CO2. Likewise, a pH drop of 1.5 from 7.5 would indicate 120ppm of CO2, which is lethal. Thus the degassing method and the chart really work off the same principles. It's just that the chart is usually easier to use since you don't need to wait 24 hours.

And as a side note, it's pretty damn hard to bring CO2 to such lethal levels using a DIY system because CO2 diffuses rather readily from water (not to mention yeast production tapers off). The vast majority of the time, it only occurs with pressurized tanks that are not being used properly, resulting in a massive end of tank dump. (Or if their diffuser is clogged and they keep cranking up the pressure till it pops off eventually)

[hungryhound]

yes Master :)

when the guru speaks even the wind listens.

[Chrona]

yes Master :)

when the guru speaks even the wind listens.

You are nearing completion of your training grasshopper. The chi is strong in you.

[kimmers318]

After reading thru this post, first, I wish you the best of luck getting the tank straightened out and beautiful plants.
Second.....I am now convinced I will NEVER have a planted tank because that is all just too much for my pea brain! Science was never my fav subject, which is why I ended up not becoming a vet like I wanted to as a kid!

[hungryhound]

After reading thru this post, first, I wish you the best of luck getting the tank straightened out and beautiful plants.
Second.....I am now convinced I will NEVER have a planted tank because that is all just too much for my pea brain! Science was never my fav subject, which is why I ended up not becoming a vet like I wanted to as a kid!

Ohh don't say that. I sure that you are very smart. It really is not as complicated as I made it seem. Stupid me wanted enough information to write a doctoral thesis on a planted tank. I think it can be done without trying to figure out how the moons pull affects the plants in your aquarium.

Think of it like gravity. Anyone can easily experience it, but only sadomasochists subject themselves to trying to figure out how it works, and in the process make it more complicated then what it really is.

Please don't give up on plants because I am a sadomasochist and made this seem more complex than it really is.


P.S. I took the biowheels out of the tank and 18 hours later my pH has dropped from 7.6 to 7.2 giving me a CO2 reading of approximately 9.2. Hopefully it will come down a little more this afternoon. If not I might hook up another gallon jug to the system.

[Chrona]

After reading thru this post, first, I wish you the best of luck getting the tank straightened out and beautiful plants.
Second.....I am now convinced I will NEVER have a planted tank because that is all just too much for my pea brain! Science was never my fav subject, which is why I ended up not becoming a vet like I wanted to as a kid!

Don't give up! Try some java fern and java moss. They are easy and grow in pretty much any condition. Just don't stick the java fern in the substrate ;)

Hungry - Sounds like we are on the right road ;)

[hungryhound]

Don't give up! Try some java fern and java moss. They are easy and grow in pretty much any condition. Just don't stick the java fern in the substrate ;)

Hungry - Sounds like we are on the right road ;)

Why don't you want to place the java fern in the substrate??

[Chrona]

Java ferns are leaf feeders. Their roots are just for anchoring, so if you plant the thing in the gravel, the rhizome will get buried and it will rot. If you happen to have long roots, you can plant it in the substrate while exposing the rhizome completely, but it will not grow nearly as well as if you tied it to some driftwood or rocks with fishing line/cotton string.

[hungryhound]

okay then I need to go home and move my java fern that is in my beta tank. I guess that also means that i need to get something else to put in the tank as I don't want to tie it to the Anubis nanna, the only other thing in the tank. :)