rams and/or keyholes in this community tank?

[Swifterz]

i am wanting to add some color to my 55 gallon tank. a larger tank is in my future, probably 75 gallons. i've had my eye on the following fish...

german blue rams
bolivian rams
keyhole cichlids

also to a lesser extent, kribensis.

i know little to nothing about cichlids, other than what i have been finding via google searches. apparrently they are some of the more peaceful cichlids?

thinking about a pair of each species, if they will co-exist peacefully together, and more importantly, with my existing community... 3 bala sharks, 1 rainbow shark and 10 tiger barbs.

it's a little premature for me to dive into some of the larger, more aggressive cichlid species, because if possible, i would like to keep my current fish. i've heard these are good "starter" fish for someone wanting cichlids.

thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated. thanks.

[EddyC]

I'm not an expert, but I'd be careful with the GBRs. I've had them in my tanks for several years - AWESOME fish! - but they can be rather shy around larger/more aggressive fish. they are definitely more bark than bite, and when the other cichlids start spawning they can get beat up pretty fast. I had them with a pair of Kribs and they got along fine until the Kribs started baby-making. Let's just say the GBRs' fins have never recovered.

Then again, you may have more luck. Dwarf cichlids are amazing little fish and their personalities are unique to each individual, so who knows.

The Kribs should do fine though, just so you know.

[Swifterz]

out of all my fish, the tiger barbs are somewhat aggressive, but they are small and i have enough of them that they don't nip any fins of the other fish. the rainbow shark isn't really aggressive, just territorial. and the balas are peaceful.

i kind of like the bolivian rams a little more. but i don't know enough about any of them to make a decision yet, or if at all.

it seems like the keyholes would do pretty good in there almost for sure. with the others it might just depend on the personality of the fish i'd get.

[EddyC]

Bolivian's are bigger and hardier than the GBRs, and most fish tend to leave them alone, at least in my experience. GBRs are more colorful, and that seems to encourage bigger fish to but into their little squabbles, which sometimes ends up with the little guys being injured. Not often, but still a legitimate concern. In one of my past tanks my school of tiger barbs got along fine with everything until I put in a pair of GBRs. Then the harrassment set in. Though they did leave the Bolivians alone ...

I've never kept keyholes, but my friend has them and from what I've seen they would fit right in with your tank, as would the kribs. The key to adding any of these fish into a tank with potential aggression (from or toward them) is to supply lots of hiding spots. That, in my experience, not only provides escape for the victim, but also seems to cool down any aggression in the first place.

But again, aggression might not even be an issue in your tank, especially if the fish you have now have peaceful temperaments. Breeding is the only thing that could/would change that, in which case the more placid fish would lose out (like my GBRs getting trashed by the Kribs who used to be friendly toward them). Just something to keep in mind.

[Swifterz]

this is my tank...

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i have been thinking about getting another small piece of driftfood for the right side and having the slate pile up higher in other areas, thus creating more caves and hiding areas.

i thought kribs are african cichlids and while less aggressive than most, are still far more aggressive than the rams or keyholes.

is it true also that the bolivan rams are more hardy than the german blue rams?

i think keyholes are not classified as dwarfs, but still only get to about 4 or 5".

i'm thinking of trying out a pair of keyholes and a pair of bolivian rams...

[EddyC]

That's a nice looking tank. More caves are always helpful, especially ones that only have one entrance so that the fish can guard the fry inside. Terra cotta flower pots on their side and partially buried in the gravel work fine. You can even coat the pot in silicone and role it in the gravel (outside the tank) so that the pot is covered with the gravel and blends in. Just at thought.

More driftwood is also a good idea. I find that the tannins and other chemicals relased by the wood seems to bring out the best color in my rams - and in any fish for that matter. So it certainly wouldn't hurt, at least as long as the pH remains stable.

Bolivian rams tend to be "hardier" than their cousins in the sense that they can tolerate a wider range of water parameters and don't demand the same level of water cleanliness. GBRs pretty much require an acidic pH - 6.5 to 6.8 is good - but the Bolivian's can do fine in up to 8 (or so I've heard). In my experience they're also more passive, though the GBRs only quarrel within their species and never hurt each other - not even nipped fins.

Kribs are African cichlids, but they are also very peaceful and don't require the high pH/hard water that typically goes with Africans. They are very curious and will investigate their tankmates and their comings and goings without bothering them, but do get a bit testy when breeding time comes around. If there are plenty of single-entrance caves this aggression is usually at a minimum; one partner will simply chase the other fish a short distance away and might then move the fry to another cave. If there aren't enough caves they tend to trap all the fish on one side of the tank and ferociously protect the fry. Again, this is from my experience.

I don't know much about keyholes, but I'm pretty sure they're similar to the kribs in that they keep to themselves until breeding time when they protect their territory.

Both types of rams do prefer a more heavily-planted tank though and can often be seen swimming through the taller plants. So I would probably suggest enlarging the planted groupings a bit to give them the security of being "invisible". Just a thought.

All in all that tank looks ready for the Bolivians and Keyholes. I'd bet they'd do well in there.

[Swifterz]

thanks so much for the help. my next project is to switch over to a sand as my substrate, i might even do it as soon as tonight or tomorrow.

i have been thinking about plants, but my lighting is ordinary and i've never done it before so i'm a little hesitant.

[Oscar_freak12321]

Well, many plants are out there that can be kept easily by a beginner. One you might want to look at is a floating plant, called hornwort. Works well when anchored too, as well as anubis and anubis nana, hygrophilia, java fern and moss, and wisteria. All could work well without any special requirements.

[Swifterz]

anubias look awesome! i've always liked those. and a floating plant could be cool.

[EddyC]

In the picture it looks like your lighting is strong enough to keep any of the plants that Oscar Freak mentioned. I'd also add that many of the Vallisneria species would probably work as well. They can be hard to keep planted in gravel though. I only use plain black gravel in my tank(s) because it's much cheaper than made-for-plants substrates and after a few months of fishkeeping it's roughly the same nutritionally-speaking (with root tabs added, of course). My corkscrew vals look just like the plant in the back left of your photo and are growing very well. They do tend to float up easily when the gravel is disturbed though, at least until their roots are well developed. After seven months they've sent out so many runners and have created a carpet of grass taking up the entire lefthand side of my tank.

Java moss is also a great plant, but can be a HUGE PITA. It likes to float away from where you've put it (even if it was well-secured) and tangle itself up in EVERYTHING. I've resorted to sandwiching it between two sheets of plastic canvas to create a moss wall in order to keep it contained. It's great at keeping nitrates at a minimum, so it's worth the hassle.

I love my anubias, and my GBRs do too. They're always laying on the leaves. It looks really cool when tied to a rock or driftwood with some cotton string or fishing line. (The line can be cut (cotton will disintegrate in time) after the roots secure the plant in a couple weeks.) Definitely gives even the most manufactured decor a more "natural" look. And totally easy to care for, as long as you don't bury the rhizome. And when it gets too big, just take it out and cut it in half and you've got two new plants. No CO2 needed, and the fish poop should be enough, though adding liquid ferts won't hurt.

Hygrophila species (wisteria is one of them) grow REALLY fast and can be used to create a beautiful hedge in the back of the tank. I just planted some H. polysperma for that purpose yesterday. Most don't require light as bright as yours, so they should grow really well for you too.

Of course, silk and plastic plants are fine too, as long as they aren't sharp. To simulate floating plants, just get a fake plant with a suction cup and stick it to the back wall kinda high up. The fish won't know the difference!

[Swifterz]

it seems like rams and the keyholes fit the profile (slow moving, long fins) of the type of fish tiger barbs would terrorize. i know they are cichlids, so how would they react to this if the barbs tried to nip them? would they let the barbs know they mean business right away? or would they barbs just know better from the start? or would the rams/keyholes just take the beating and do nothing to defend themselves?

[EddyC]

I don't know about Keyholes, but Rams aren't the kind of fish to be terrorized by the barbs, especially if the barbs are in a large enough group to spread out their nippiness. The situation usually plays out in one of two ways: first, the barbs come up to investigate/nip and the rams (esp. GBRs) chase them away; or the rams go right up to them and let them know they're the boss. Either way it shouldn't be too much of problem. Neither type of ram is an "aggressive" fish, but they are cichlids and won't let any uppity nippers bother them, though they also won't go after the nippers. And if there's enough hiding spots, any potential problems would be greatly minimized anyway.

[Swifterz]

i changed over to sand today. it looks so much better and now it's more cichlid friendly. i really want a pair of keyholes and a pair of bolivian rams.

i really like firemouth cichlids too.

i think i would need to take out the gouramis, but i wonder how a pair of each of those 3 species would do with the 3 bala sharks, 10 tiger barbs and 1 rainbow shark.

[ttimpain]

I let them in my tank for several years - awesome fish! - But they can be quite shy, big / more active fish. They are definitely more bark than bite, and when others began to beat them spawning cichlids can get quite fast.