When to add dechlorinator when using a python

[rookie]

I used to add the dechlor in the bucket before putting the water in the tank but now that I'm going to use a python do I dump the dechlor in the tank first before the water, or do I put it in after I add the water, is there a way to mix it, does it even matter. Just wanted to know the methods you use

[MonkeyPox]

put it in tank, dose for whole tank, wait 60 seconds, add water

[jaysee]

I just pour it in before I refill.

[rookie]

Monkeypox when u say add a dose for whole tank do u mean enough for the water I am replacing for example if I'm doing a 25% water change do I add enough for 110g or enough for like 30g

[jaysee]

If you change 25%, dose for like 35%. You just want to be sure there is no shortage of decholinator.

[rookie]

Good advice guys

[Wild Turkey]

Usually, it doesnt matter.

If you have chloramines its better to pretreat imo (I.e> Fill a bucket, dechlor it, add that to tank, repeat)

Its easier for me to fill my tanks using a 5 gal bucket and a hose for other reasons, so I use that opportunity to pre treat. However i used to fill then dechlor, chlorine wont hurt the fish for a small while, and as long as your filter is off your bacteria is also fine.

[rookie]

Should I be turning off my filter when filling

[MonkeyPox]

Dose for the entire size of the tank.


Should I be turning off my filter when filling
Not necessary unless you know you have exceptionally high chlorine levels. In that case, fill using a bucket or tub first.

[Wild Turkey]

Should I be turning off my filter when filling

It depends.

If you change enough water where the intake is out of the water, make sure you turn the filters off first. Also, if you arent treating the tank or new water with dechlor before (chlorine can kill the bacteria)

[jaysee]

Dose for the entire size of the tank.

What's the reason for dosing the entire tank?

[emilyekk]

On the instructions for my python is says that as it is refilling it is also oxidizing the water so you don't need to make sure everything is mixed perfectly before adding the water.

I tend to turn the water like half way on (not full pressure) so I've got a nice slow stream of water coming out, and then I pour my dechlorinator and start right directly into or under the stream of water and let it all mix.


When I was working with my 10 gallon I usually just dosed for a 10 gallon, no matter how much water I changed... I am either over cautious or just lazy.
Will overdosing do harm to the fish/tank?

Now that I've got my 55gal up and running I'm going to be MUCH more accurate because completely dosing a 10 gal every water change and completely dosing a 55gal during a water change are quite different and I think I'd notice it in my pocket! lol.

[MonkeyPox]

The simple reason is that is what the instructions on AmQuel and Prime tell you to do.

The practical reason has to do with liquid dispersion inside the tank and minimizing contact time with chlorine and tank inhabitants, including nitrosomas.

Dosing for the entire tank makes the neutralization near instantaneous.

[MonkeyPox]

On the instructions for my python is says that as it is refilling it is also oxidizing the water so you don't need to make sure everything is mixed perfectly before adding the water.


I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Oxygenation has nothing to do with chlorine content.



I tend to turn the water like half way on (not full pressure) so I've got a nice slow stream of water coming out, and then I pour my dechlorinator and start right directly into or under the stream of water and let it all mix.
.

I would not recommend this as you are adding, potentially, contaminated water to your environment with nothing to combat it.



Will overdosing do harm to the fish/tank?


No. Not at all.




Now that I've got my 55gal up and running I'm going to be MUCH more accurate because completely dosing a 10 gal every water change and completely dosing a 55gal during a water change are quite different and I think I'd notice it in my pocket! lol.

This really shouldn't be an issue. On Prime (http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html), for example, a single capful will dose for 50 gallons. I really don't know anyone who does 1/5 of a capful, so you really shouldn't see a difference in how fast you go through a bottle.

[MCHRKiller]

I turn the faucet on the re-fill...and dart back to the tank to dump in m Prime. I usually dont quite dose for the whole tank but I do add extra dechlor just to make sure. Example...cap of prime treats 50Gs...change 40G of water on 100G tank...add a full cap of prime and then about 1/4 cap extra.

[jaysee]

Emilykk - Rookie's got a 110 gallon....

[rookie]

Wow love all the imput just one question it seems that everyone uses prime I never heard of that can anyone tell me a little about that product. I currently have been using api stress coat is prime better. One cap of stress coat only treats 10g which would stink putting in 11 caps full

[emilyekk]

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Oxygenation has nothing to do with chlorine content.

I was just reiterating exactly what my python instructions say because I had the same concerns as rookie did at first (regarding introducing plain tap water without dosing it)...

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I was just reading off the instructions.

[jaysee]

The simple reason is that is what the instructions on AmQuel and Prime tell you to do.

The practical reason has to do with liquid dispersion inside the tank and minimizing contact time with chlorine and tank inhabitants, including nitrosomas.

Dosing for the entire tank makes the neutralization near instantaneous.

Well of course they're going to tell you to dose the whole tank! You use more, you buy more, they make more. It's all about the money.

The directions on my fish food say to feed two to three times a day, as much as your fish can consume in SEVERAL minutes. That's just BS.

The concentration of chlors in the new water (normal w/c), diluted with the CHLORLESS old water is not significant enough to be concerned with because it is quickly dealt with, even just dosing the amount of new water. The decholr works instantaneously whether you overdose or not, so as long as there is a current (refilling), that contact time is miniscule.

[MonkeyPox]

Well of course they're going to tell you to dose the whole tank! You use more, you buy more, they make more. It's all about the money.

The directions on my fish food say to feed two to three times a day, as much as your fish can consume in SEVERAL minutes. That's just BS.

The concentration of chlors in the new water (normal w/c), diluted with the CHLORLESS old water is not significant enough to be concerned with because it is quickly dealt with, even just dosing the amount of new water. The decholr works instantaneously whether you overdose or not, so as long as there is a current (refilling), that contact time is miniscule.

Sigh...

Ok, comparing fish food instructions and dechlorinator instructions is beyond apples and oranges.



The concentration of chlors in the new water (normal w/c), diluted with the CHLORLESS old water is not significant enough to be concerned with because it is quickly dealt with, even just dosing the amount of new water. The decholr works instantaneously whether you overdose or not, so as long as there is a current (refilling), that contact time is miniscule.

Are you sure about this? Are you basing this on scientific research or just guessing? Do you know how long, and at what concentration chlorine kills nitrospora, nitrosoma, and has a toxic effect on fish?

Let me put this another way. Fill your bathtub up with water. Add 1ml of yellow food coloring. Wait 60 seconds and add 10 gallons of blue food coloring. Observe how long it takes for the entire tank to turn green.

You've also not accounted for the amount of chlorine removed. In the case of Prime, one of the more efficient chlorine detoxifiers, 5ml removes 3.3 mg/L of chlorine. I have seen higher levels come out of my tap, so even with proper dosing, I would need to overdose. The same applies of chloramine.

I also don't understand the reluctance of using 1 capful per 50g of water. Do you really think that is overselling? To dose with less would require a medicine dropper, no?

You're going to dose however you want and everyone has their own dosing strategies. Personally, I find it best to follow instructions

[MonkeyPox]

I was just reiterating exactly what my python instructions say because I had the same concerns as rookie did at first (regarding introducing plain tap water without dosing it)...

If I'm wrong I'm wrong. I was just reading off the instructions.

The instructions aren't wrong. Introducing water via a python will help oxygenate your water. I'm simply stating that oxygenation has absolutely nothing to do with chlorine/chloramine.

[jaysee]

Sigh...It's not comparing apples and oranges, it illustrates the point that these are businesses that sell consumable products, so it's in their best intrest to instruct you to use more. The apples and oranges we are talking about is prime vs other dechlors. I don't use prime, so all this talk about droppers is meaningless to me and anyone else who does not use prime, like the OP.

The bathtub analogy is not a good one. The water is not left to passively mix as you suggest - it is being actively mixed because the of the filter. Ex. - It takes but a minute for ick drops to be homogenized in the tank. Also, 10 gallons in a bathtub? What's that supposed to represent, a 10% water change? I'm assuming you mean 10 gallons of blue water, not blue food coloring. Otherwise, it makes even less sense.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with overdosing for the reason you stated, just not to the extent you're talking about.

Look, I don't know at what concentration and for how long and neither do you. What I do know is that any discomforts my fish experience are minimal, and the discomforts your fish experience are even more minimal.

[jaysee]

And I base that on my own experience and experimentation combined with my knowledge of physics and chemistry. It's a guess, but a well educated guess.

[Gramazing]

This is a very interesting thread. I was wondering about the same thing myself before I saw it; i.e. you are basically adding water straight from the tap with the hose method and if you add the water conditioner to the tank (whether before, after or during the fill) there is some kind of time lag before it acts on the new water in the tank. The question is how much and is it a problem?

The filter complicates the matter. Someone said you keep the filter on so the water is being moved around as you add the water and the conditioner, but couldn't this mean some chlorinated water gets sucked through the filter before it gets a chance to be treated? And is this small amount a problem for the bacteria in the filter? I usually switch the filter off when doing WCs because it becomes a waterfall when the level drops.

So far I have been doing bucket water changes which is a pain in the butt and I will be getting a hose today (I already have the water bed thingie.) Clearly so many people do it this way with no ill effects so it must be okay, but of course the fish don't tell us if it's momentarily painful for them.

[MonkeyPox]

Sigh...It's not comparing apples and oranges, it illustrates the point that these are businesses that sell consumable products, so it's in their best intrest to instruct you to use more. The apples and oranges we are talking about is prime vs other dechlors. I don't use prime, so all this talk about droppers is meaningless to me and anyone else who does not use prime, like the OP.

The bathtub analogy is not a good one. The water is not left to passively mix as you suggest - it is being actively mixed because the of the filter. Ex. - It takes but a minute for ick drops to be homogenized in the tank. Also, 10 gallons in a bathtub? What's that supposed to represent, a 10% water change? I'm assuming you mean 10 gallons of blue water, not blue food coloring. Otherwise, it makes even less sense.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with overdosing for the reason you stated, just not to the extent you're talking about.

Look, I don't know at what concentration and for how long and neither do you. What I do know is that any discomforts my fish experience are minimal, and the discomforts your fish experience are even more minimal.

analogy is vs standard bathtub size.

comparing a product designed to be used for, literally, thousands of applications and species vs a product designed to do exactly one thing each and every time is apples and oranges

following directions is dosing, not overdosing

in fact, i do know the rate of decay of which I question to a very near approximation. it is a key factor in a job I've done for quite some time.

prime and amquel are the most popular dechlorinators on the market so utilizing them in an example is quite appropriate

[robflanker]

Lets try and keep this on topic kids lol :hmm3grin2orange:

I do what MCHR does - fill the python to fill, run back and add the appropriate amount for the amount i took out, and then a little extra to be safe.

For me, 30% WC in my 10g is 3g, so thats 3mL of dechlor - so i'd use 4-5mL depending on how lazy I am in measuring out appropriately

[jaysee]

in fact, i do know the rate of decay of which I question to a very near approximation. it is a key factor in a job I've done for quite some time.

Well don't keep us waiting....

[terrapin24h]

for my 65gal i dose 1.5 capfulls of prime, which i believe is enough for around 80 or so gal of water, and i generally do a 20-30 gal change. So i overdose. I always add the dechlor before starting the water flow back into the tank. Generally i add the dechlor, get the water to temp, then flood the tank. I keep the filter running through the whole process(i figure the waterfall affect helps to oxygenate the water, and my fish like to play in the bubbles(which keeps them away fromt he python)

--chris

[MrDrums]

Each time I change the water, I do about 25% water change, using Python. Once I have filled the tank, I then add my StressCoat and StressZyme. I do as the directions say, and dose for the whole volume of the tank. I'm not so sure it matters, but I have never had a problem doing it this way.

[MonkeyPox]

Well don't keep us waiting....

Cell wall decay on enzymes occurs on contact and continues at a rate proportional to the amount of contact time, increasing exponentially based on chlorine dosage.
This assumes you're not looking at gram negative bacteria or protozoans.
Variables such as ph, concentration of free chlorine and induction method, salinity, etc... also impact the calculation.

I may be able to extract the full function and algorithm when I get back to the laboratory.

[Wild Turkey]

Its fine to add dechlor after adding the water in most cases. Turn off your filter, thats all.

Thats what a lot of people do, and what I did for a long time. No fish stress.

When I joined the site, I was told by a respected member as long as you dechlor within about 10 minutes, the fish dont notice. Never seen anything to make me think otherwise.

[jaysee]

Cell wall decay on enzymes occurs on contact and continues at a rate proportional to the amount of contact time, increasing exponentially based on chlorine dosage.
This assumes you're not looking at gram negative bacteria or protozoans.
Variables such as ph, concentration of free chlorine and induction method, salinity, etc... also impact the calculation.

I may be able to extract the full function and algorithm when I get back to the laboratory.

Crunch the numbers and let us all know.

Don't forget to take into account the rate at which the dechlorinator dechlorinates, which IMO makes this discussion irrelavent. That was my origional assertion. There's no debate that damage occurs on contact - it's just not enough to make a difference.

[MonkeyPox]

Crunch the numbers and let us all know.

Don't forget to take into account the rate at which the dechlorinator dechlorinates, which IMO makes this discussion irrelavent. That was my origional assertion. There's no debate that damage occurs on contact - it's just not enough to make a difference.

The relevance is that the ionization can only occur on contact. Contact is not guaranteed and the lower the dose compared to the total volume of water prolongs exposure to chloramines. Unfortunately, cellular decay doesn't decrease the effectiveness of chlorine, so it is continually active until ionized.

Also, many municipalities utilize Chloramination, which also needs to be ionized as quickly as possible. Instant exposure will burn gills.

[jaysee]

In a propperly filtered tank the water is completely turned over in 6-8 minutes. Surely any chlors that make it through the refilling process will be negated within that timeframe.

You want to split hairs over how good good is. Good is not great, you're right, but I was a B+ student. I'm sure you were a solid A. When it comes to fish, good is good enough for me.

Don't forget those calculations you promised.

[MonkeyPox]

Good is not great, you're right, but I was a B+ student. I'm sure you were a solid A.
Don't forget those calculations you promised.


I hold a PhD in Biological and Environmental Engineering from Cornell and a Masters in Industrial Engineering and Operations Research from Columbia. As I indicated, people are going to do and dose how they want, but I'm fairly certain the sarcasm isn't needed nor appreciated.
If you have any further questions, I'm happy to address them via PM so as not to continue to derail this thread.

As I indicated, when I'm next in the lab I'll see what portion of the overall algorithm we use I can extrapolate. Unfortunately, its part of the overall software we use to determine required filtration in a compressed, pressurized, and inhabited marine environment. As such, other factors such as pressure, metal decay, turbulence, etc... all come into play. As I didn't create the algorithm, I'll have to see if the dechlorination part is explicitly spelled out and if its unclassified. Otherwise I can run some raw numbers and produce a fairly generic result.

[jaysee]

:14: That wasn't sarcasm. Your credentials are proof of that and I'm guessing you attained them by not accepting "good enough". That's why you have a PhD and I don't.

[MonkeyPox]

:14: That wasn't sarcasm. Your credentials are proof of that and I'm guessing you attained them by not accepting "good enough". That's why you have a PhD and I don't.

It's also why I don't win any points for "niceness" in a forum setting thumbs2: