Curious chemistry - new tank

[Owen Stubbs]

Several years ago, I set up a small 10 gallon tank for my son. He had a goldfish for several years, but he lost interest and we gave it away. Tank and all components were cleaned and stored for about 2 years. He wants a new, much larger aquarium, but I decided he needed to demonstrate sustained interest and responsibility, so I decided we would start with the original 10 gallon setup, then progress to something larger.

Cleaned everything with water only. Tank is 10 gallons, has undergravel filter and biowheel filter. Filled tank and treated with "Cycle" by Nutrafin. Water started clouding up after several days, so I had the water tested. Showed elevated ammonia. I bought my own test kit (deemed worthwhile if I get the larger tank), and after an additional 10 days of testing, and a total of 2 weeks since original fill, here is where I am:

No fish in the tank since fill
Temp: 79 F
PH: 7.0
Ammonia: 0.5-1.0 ppm
Nitrite: None
Nitrate: 5.0-10.0 ppm

These levels have held constant for the entire time I have tested.

The Cycle product does specifically say that it is "biased toward nitrite-oxidizing bacteria", so perhaps that explains the Nitrite reading, but what about everything else? LFS says ammonia needs to come down before any fish are added.

Opinions?

#2 - still torn on fish. Was thinking half dozen danios or white clouds for hardiness, perhaps a cory, but not sure if these do well alone. Son likes guppies, but I was led to believe these things do not live long, and I would not know what to do with the extras if they do, as I have heard, breed like crazy.

Anyway, input appreciated!

[Chrona]

Several years ago, I set up a small 10 gallon tank for my son. He had a goldfish for several years, but he lost interest and we gave it away. Tank and all components were cleaned and stored for about 2 years. He wants a new, much larger aquarium, but I decided he needed to demonstrate sustained interest and responsibility, so I decided we would start with the original 10 gallon setup, then progress to something larger.

Cleaned everything with water only. Tank is 10 gallons, has undergravel filter and biowheel filter. Filled tank and treated with "Cycle" by Nutrafin. Water started clouding up after several days, so I had the water tested. Showed elevated ammonia. I bought my own test kit (deemed worthwhile if I get the larger tank), and after an additional 10 days of testing, and a total of 2 weeks since original fill, here is where I am:

No fish in the tank since fill
Temp: 79 F
PH: 7.0
Ammonia: 0.5-1.0 ppm
Nitrite: None
Nitrate: 5.0-10.0 ppm

These levels have held constant for the entire time I have tested.

The Cycle product does specifically say that it is "biased toward nitrite-oxidizing bacteria", so perhaps that explains the Nitrite reading, but what about everything else? LFS says ammonia needs to come down before any fish are added.

Opinions?

#2 - still torn on fish. Was thinking half dozen danios or white clouds for hardiness, perhaps a cory, but not sure if these do well alone. Son likes guppies, but I was led to believe these things do not live long, and I would not know what to do with the extras if they do, as I have heard, breed like crazy.

Anyway, input appreciated!

I would recommend downloading the ebook and reading about the nitrogen cycle. It seems to be the general consensus that the only cycling products that actually work are Biospira and maybe Biozyme. My guess is that there was still some waste leftover from the old equipment that dissolved and fed the bacteria for a few days. You will need to keep adding ammonia to finish cycling the tank before you add fish in though, as the ammonia eating bacteria are probably going to run out of food soon.

[Lady Hobbs]

Cycle and some of those products help with the cycle procress but do not do it alone. You need to have a constant source of ammonia such as fish would give off or substitute that for pure ammonia...about 5 or 6 drops per day until you read nitrites and then drop to 2 or 3 drops per day. Soon you will see 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites and higher nitrates. Change out about half the water and you're done.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks for the replies. I have read the ebook, and thought I understood the cycle. Isn't the presence of nitrate an indication that the cycling process is proceeding to some degree? I thought the test result of 5-10ppm was a good indication... No?

And what about the presence of ammonia? I guess I can accept the fact that something from the original setup is contributing to that, but I would have expected it to be dropping, but instead of that, it has held at a consistent level, neither increasing nor decreasing. It is the combination of my 0.5-1.0ppm Ammonia, zero nitrite and 5010ppm nitrate that has me confused. For a week or so, I did not do any testing, so if there was some kind of nitrite spike in there, I would not have seen it. For the week that has elapsed since, I have never tested any nitrite.

Should I be taking steps to remove ammonia, through water changes or some absorber? Or am I misunderstanding this, and the ammonia level actually needs to be HIGHER? If so, should I try to find this biospira stuff and start all over or try to find pure ammonia and go that route? Also - shoule I increase the 79F temperature?

One final question - if I go the ammonia route, how critical is the 5ppm level? My test card shows 4 & 8. Just shoot for some arbitrary shade of green in between? :o)

[Chrona]

Thanks for the replies. I have read the ebook, and thought I understood the cycle. Isn't the presence of nitrate an indication that the cycling process is proceeding to some degree? I thought the test result of 5-10ppm was a good indication... No?

Not always. Tap water often contains nitrates already

And what about the presence of ammonia? I guess I can accept the fact that something from the original setup is contributing to that, but I would have expected it to be dropping, but instead of that, it has held at a consistent level, neither increasing nor decreasing. It is the combination of my 0.5-1.0ppm Ammonia, zero nitrite and 5010ppm nitrate that has me confused. For a week or so, I did not do any testing, so if there was some kind of nitrite spike in there, I would not have seen it. For the week that has elapsed since, I have never tested any nitrite.

The presence of ammonia is a clear indication that the ammonia eating bacteria (the first stage) is still not up to par with the biological load of the tank.

Should I be taking steps to remove ammonia, through water changes or some absorber? Or am I misunderstanding this, and the ammonia level actually needs to be HIGHER? If so, should I try to find this biospira stuff and start all over or try to find pure ammonia and go that route? Also - shoule I increase the 79F temperature?

No, you need the ammonia so that the bacteria population will flourish and be ready to support your fish. There are no fish in the tank right? You can increase the temp to like 82. It will cycled faster this way. I would just go pure ammonia and start over again (you can use Cycle along with the fishless cycling). Biospira is great, but it's very expensive (like 20 bucks per baggy), and is really only worth it if you are impatient + wealthy :)

One final question - if I go the ammonia route, how critical is the 5ppm level? My test card shows 4 & 8. Just shoot for some arbitrary shade of green in between? :o)

Yep, it's just a rough estimate. 5 ppm of ammonia is meant to simulate a higher bioload than the stocking capacity of the tank so a little less or a little more is fine. Note you don't want TOO much ammonia as it starts to be counterproduction at a certain level



Hope that helped

[Owen Stubbs]

5 stores later, I have ammonia without surfactants!!! :19: Figures - it was the first one my wife suggested! Of course, I told HER that I went straight there! For those in the Chicago metro area, it was my neighborhood Jewel.

Raised the tank temp to 82 a few hours ago, just added a few drops of ammonia, will test in 30 minutes.

Between the undergravel filter, and the flow from the biowheel filter, there is TONS of air bubbles in this tank, so I would think this process has a good chance of success if I am reading everything correctly.

I do, however, have a question - I have read several posts on this forum that suggest undergravel filters are a waste. I always thought they really helped with biological filtering - is this just a myth that I adopted when I had aquariums many, many years ago?

[Chrona]

5 stores later, I have ammonia without surfactants!!! :19: Figures - it was the first one my wife suggested! Of course, I told HER that I went straight there! For those in the Chicago metro area, it was my neighborhood Jewel.

Raised the tank temp to 82 a few hours ago, just added a few drops of ammonia, will test in 30 minutes.

Between the undergravel filter, and the flow from the biowheel filter, there is TONS of air bubbles in this tank, so I would think this process has a good chance of success if I am reading everything correctly.

I do, however, have a question - I have read several posts on this forum that suggest undergravel filters are a waste. I always thought they really helped with biological filtering - is this just a myth that I adopted when I had aquariums many, many years ago?

Undergravel filters do provide great bio filtering, but they are somewhat outdated due to the maintenance required, especially since you already have a biowheel filter.

[Owen Stubbs]

What sort of maintenance? In my past experience, using both a mechanical filter, and an undergravel filter, I never really did anything with the undergravel filter from a maintenance perspective, and the water quality was always excellent. Maybe I just got lucky and should not use that as a basis upon which to form a conclusive opinion?

[Chrona]

What sort of maintenance? In my past experience, using both a mechanical filter, and an undergravel filter, I never really did anything with the undergravel filter from a maintenance perspective, and the water quality was always excellent. Maybe I just got lucky and should not use that as a basis upon which to form a conclusive opinion?

I don't know about the newer styles that came out in recent months, but basically, the argument against UGF goes that the plates break, uplift tube gets clogged and it's somewhat bulky.

The biowheel will house more than enough bacteria for any tank under it's rating size, and it's less visible (in the tank), easier to maintain, and does a better job with mechanical/chemical filtration. Since you already have both, you might as well go ahead and use them though.

[Drumachine09]

Sure, i am going to kinda stirr up old dirt and go with FW's arguement. Sure UGS are outdated, but they work, thats why they were once very popular. Besides, you can never overfilter, so it wont hurt. Personaly, i have a ugf in my 10g nano. No problems yet, but then again ive had it for a month tommorow.

[Drumachine09]

Sure, i am going to kinda stirr up old dirt and go with FW's arguement. Sure UGS are outdated, but they work, thats why they were once very popular. Besides, you can never overfilter, so it wont hurt. Personaly, i have a ugf in my 10g nano. No problems yet, but then again ive had it for a month tommorow.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks for all the replies, especially since I just started posting today. This info is excellent!!!! This little 10g experiment is meant to sharpen the skills that will help me get a much larger tank up and running, assuming my son is up to the challenge.

Then again, who am I kidding? I'm liking this stuff so much that it may no longer be just for HIM!! thumbs2:

[Chrona]

Thanks for all the replies, especially since I just started posting today. This info is excellent!!!! This little 10g experiment is meant to sharpen the skills that will help me get a much larger tank up and running, assuming my son is up to the challenge.

Then again, who am I kidding? I'm liking this stuff so much that it may no longer be just for HIM!! thumbs2:

That's the way it usually works out. Unfortunately, many of us do not have a son or daughter who we can use to justify spending hundreds of dollars on a fish tank :)

[cocoa_pleco]

Sure, i am going to kinda stirr up old dirt and go with FW's arguement. Sure UGS are outdated, but they work, thats why they were once very popular. Besides, you can never overfilter, so it wont hurt. Personaly, i have a ugf in my 10g nano. No problems yet, but then again ive had it for a month tommorow.


I ditched my Ugf in the salt tank. A pro said that it would kill anenomes because of the nitrates and is i ticking time bomb, and im bestoff with a HOB. I also had to buy fine substrate, because i couldnt find crushed coral or dolmite. For freshwater tanks, i kinda sorta recommend ugf's, but canisters are the best.

[Owen Stubbs]

That's the way it usually works out. Unfortunately, many of us do not have a son or daughter who we can use to justify spending hundreds of dollars on a fish tank :)

You think that is bad, try owning a boat!!!! Aquariums do not compare to that expense, to say nothing of what it takes to justify it to my wife!

Anyway, I've been adding ammonia to the tank tonight. Think I have too small a dropper, but am slowly getting it to 5ppm. This is only a 10g - elevated the temp to about 82F. How long ya think to get the nitrite spike, especially considering that I have Cycle in there, and the tank was already exposed to a bit of Ammonia, possibly from leftover gunk in the previously used gravel?

[Chrona]

You think that is bad, try owning a boat!!!! Aquariums do not compare to that expense, to say nothing of what it takes to justify it to my wife!

Anyway, I've been adding ammonia to the tank tonight. Think I have too small a dropper, but am slowly getting it to 5ppm. This is only a 10g - elevated the temp to about 82F. How long ya think to get the nitrite spike, especially considering that I have Cycle in there, and the tank was already exposed to a bit of Ammonia, possibly from leftover gunk in the previously used gravel?

Pft, aquarium, boat, same thing. Both are rigid structures. One holds water in, one keeps water out ;)

I would say about a week to 10 days for the full cycle. Maybe the nitrite spike within 3-5 days or so.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks again - the collective input here has really helped.

So, lets say it takes me XX drops of ammonia to achieve roughly 5ppm ammonia. Am I repeating that daily, or adding (& testing) only as much as it takes to HOLD that level?

[Chrona]

Thanks again - the collective input here has really helped.

So, lets say it takes me XX drops of ammonia to achieve roughly 5ppm ammonia. Am I repeating that daily, or adding (& testing) only as much as it takes to HOLD that level?

You add that amount daily until you see your nitrite spike. Then cut ammonia dosage in half until ammonia and nitrites are at zero. Then do a 75% water change and add fish immediately

[Owen Stubbs]

I continue to be impressed. Thanks for sticking with this tread! Almost seems trivial - some guy trying to flush out the starting of a 10g tank. My hope is that my learning experience will help someone else out in the future.

I have been on this site for hours today. Lots of great info, thanks to those of you who are really dedicated!!!

Last test showed around 4ppm ammonia, I added a few more drops of ammonia, and will test it one last time tonight, then off to bed! I decided not to give the tank its next scheduled dose of "cycle" tonight to keep the variables down in this new procedure. Is that a correct choice, or would I be better off keeping up with the "Cycle"?

[Chrona]

I continue to be impressed. Thanks for sticking with this tread! Almost seems trivial - some guy trying to flush out the starting of a 10g tank. My hope is that my learning experience will help someone else out in the future.

I have been on this site for hours today. Lots of great info, thanks to those of you who are really dedicated!!!

Last test showed around 4ppm ammonia, I added a few more drops of ammonia, and will test it one last time tonight, then off to bed! I decided not to give the tank its next scheduled dose of "cycle" tonight to keep the variables down in this new procedure. Is that a correct choice, or would I be better off keeping up with the "Cycle"?

No problem :)

You can add Cycle if you wish. It won't hurt the process, but I don't think it will help it much either. I've never had it do anything for me

[Owen Stubbs]

No problem :)

You can add Cycle if you wish. It won't hurt the process, but I don't think it will help it much either. I've never had it do anything for me

Hmmmm.... had really good results with this product in the past. The "past" being several years ago. I have no desire to waste any more money than necessary (doing plenty of that already). Is this product just a waste of time? Something better? Nothing like it needed?

Anyway, looks like I achieved something close to 5ppm ammonia. Going to let it sit overnight, and test again in the morning. Don't give up on this thread - I really need, and sincerely appreciate, the input you guys are providing!!!!

[Chrona]

Hmmmm.... had really good results with this product in the past. The "past" being several years ago. I have no desire to waste any more money than necessary (doing plenty of that already). Is this product just a waste of time? Something better? Nothing like it needed?

Anyway, looks like I achieved something close to 5ppm ammonia. Going to let it sit overnight, and test again in the morning. Don't give up on this thread - I really need, and sincerely appreciate, the input you guys are providing!!!!

Well, the last two times I have used Cycle, both times in helping a friend set up a tank, it did jack in terms of speeding up the process. However, Biospira, by Marineland has proven to be good to it's claims, cycling one of the guy's tanks in a little less than 2 days. Expensive stuff though. My experience isn't just an isolated incident either. It seems to be the general consensus on most forums that the only cycling product that works as claimed is Biospira (and possibly Biozyme), which is basically refrigerated bacteria.

[Owen Stubbs]

I have this tiny little dropper. Very narrow neck. Does it seem right that it would have taken a total of 30 drops to get near 5ppm ammonia in a 10g setup? According to my test card, it is a tad darker green than 4ppm, but nowhere near as dark green as 8.0ppm. My card does not show exactly 5, and it is possible I am closer to 4, so comment away on this particular issue.

Meanwhile, roughly 24 hours into this process, as I mentioned, ammonia is slightly above 4ppm, and Nitrite is 0.25ppm (was zero 24 hrs ago). Water temp is holding around 82F, which seems to be as warm as my 50 watt heater can get it.

EDIT: Just measured - 30 drops from this dropper come out to about 1 mL.

[Owen Stubbs]

Absent any input, I went ahead with a second dose of 30 drops. 45 minutes later, ammonia still tested slightly darker than 4ppm. Sure would feel more comfortable with input on this matter.

Also - I am thinking about live plants. REALLY simple live plants. Being new to this forum, would it be best to ask in this thread, or start a new one specific to the subject? And yes - I have searched and read as much as I can, but still have some questions. :o)

[Chrona]

Absent any input, I went ahead with a second dose of 30 drops. 45 minutes later, ammonia still tested slightly darker than 4ppm. Sure would feel more comfortable with input on this matter.

Also - I am thinking about live plants. REALLY simple live plants. Being new to this forum, would it be best to ask in this thread, or start a new one specific to the subject? And yes - I have searched and read as much as I can, but still have some questions. :o)

Your ammonia level is fine, keeping adding 30 drops per day until you see your nitrite spike. How much lighting do you have on that tank and what kind of water do you have? (hard, soft, low pH, etc)

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks for the reply Chrona - cannot tell you how many of your posts I have read in the past 2 days!! Guess that explains how you have managed to accumulate >1500 posts in < 3months! You sure seem to love this hobby!

Anyway, PH is 7, compliments of proper PH (which could be a plant problem, from what I have read). Water is not softened.

Lighting is a fluorescent hood... actual FL tube looks to be about 18" long or so, and is labeled "TFC Bioplant FL15BR.

Does that help?

[sergo]

proper ph is not good for plants.
you have 15 watts of light on your tank. the heater i'd say is fine as you shouldn't need to get above 82 unless you have a nasty outbreak (lets hope not). keep doing what your doing with the ammonia and as chrona said watch for the rise in nitrites before cutting back on ammonia. lastly be patient as the last part of the cycle tends to slow down some until all of a sudden it's done.

also chrona is a forum junkie =0)-

[Chrona]

Thanks for the reply Chrona - cannot tell you how many of your posts I have read in the past 2 days!! Guess that explains how you have managed to accumulate >1500 posts in < 3months! You sure seem to love this hobby!

Anyway, PH is 7, compliments of proper PH (which could be a plant problem, from what I have read). Water is not softened.

Lighting is a fluorescent hood... actual FL tube looks to be about 18" long or so, and is labeled "TFC Bioplant FL15BR.

Does that help?

Hey, what can I say, I troll forums and chat on AIM as I try to put off my thermodynamics homework. :rolleyes: I do love this hobby though, and wish that someone had helped me out when I first started. Thus I am trying to compensate for what I didn't have :)

I would recommend the following plants:

Java fern: make sure you don't bury the rhizome. Just tie it to a rock and the roots will grip on in a few weeks

Java moss: it will grow great. Perhaps too well. Some people like it, others hate it. Don't say I didn't warn you if, in a month, you are trying to get the stuff out of your filter, gravel, etc ;)

Anubias nana: for a 10g tank, anubias nana (or the anubias nana petite variety) look great. Again, this can be attached to driftwood or rock as well, but it is primarily a root feeder. If you put it in gravel, make sure you dont bury the rhizome or it will rot. Almost all plants with a rhizome like to have light hitting it, and water flowing around it. Don't press the roots into the gravel either. It is better to let them grow in by themselves while using something to hold it down (ie small rock)

The benefit of these plants is that the java fern/moss suck nutrients right from the water, so you don't need a nice substrate or substrate supplementation if you have inert gravel/sand. The anubias would prefer a good substrate, but given it's slow growth rate, it will not be that much of a concern.

These are all very easy plants that require very little attention. However, I would recommend you get an oto cat or two (maybe some cherry shrimp if your fish are small) to take care of any algae that shows up, on the anubias in particular because the leaves last a LONG time and tend to collect algae.

Before you add any live plants (or leave the lights on for more than a few hours), you need to flush most of that proper pH out through partial water changes. Do it slowly, over the course of a 1-2 weeks.

[sergo]

i think a single banana plant may do pretty good in your tank too. they are quite interesting looking too.

[Owen Stubbs]

I just bought this heater on the recommendation of the LFS - should I take it back and get a 100W? So - I keep going with the ammonia. Looks like I need to stop the proper PH for plants, but can I even go with plants in this 10g/light setup? And if so, should I be introducing them during the cycling process, or wait?

[sergo]

you can go with some plants but not with a whole lot unless you supplement them.
if you want plants STOP the proper ph.
btw, what are you tap water readings?

you could put the plants in now but you have proper ph in it.

[Chrona]

I just bought this heater on the recommendation of the LFS - should I take it back and get a 100W? So - I keep going with the ammonia. Looks like I need to stop the proper PH for plants, but can I even go with plants in this 10g/light setup? And if so, should I be introducing them during the cycling process, or wait?

No, wait until the cycling is done (when you do your 75% water change at the end of the cycling process, you will remove enough of the proper ph as well.), because plants eat up ammonia, so they slow the process down. People with heavily planted tanks don't have to cycle period because the plants eat up all the wastes, but those need relatively medium-high light. It's tough to get it to work in a 10g tank with 15 watts unless you get gobloads of java moss.

Yes 15 watts will grow the plants I listed just fine in a 10g.

100 watts is too much for a 10g. You only need/want 5 watts/gallon or the heater will heat up the water too quickly

EDIT: Does the temp stay constant during the day when it is set to about 78ish? If so, then it is sufficient.

[sergo]

sorry chrona. he does not want to put plants in right now.
he could though if got rid of the proper ph. my plants were in from the get go and let me tell you they ate up some ammonia too and still do along with everything else that's available.

[Owen Stubbs]

Can't believe the wealth of info here - thanks for all the replies. Let's see if I have this correct:

Heater is fine - do not increase size.

Plants listed are great - don't overdo it. Maybe a java fern and/or a banana plant .. or 2

Do not plant until cycle is complete.

Stop using proper PH.

Question: PH out of the tap is between 7.2 and 7.6. Best I can estimate from my kit. What next?

[Chrona]

Can't believe the wealth of info here - thanks for all the replies. Let's see if I have this correct:

Heater is fine - do not increase size.

Plants listed are great - don't overdo it. Maybe a java fern and/or a banana plant .. or 2

Do not plant until cycle is complete.

Stop using proper PH.

Question: PH out of the tap is between 7.2 and 7.6. Best I can estimate from my kit. What next?

Don't worry about the pH. The hardy fish you will be getting can easily adapt (and probably have at the LFS already anyways)

With all low light plants, you can actually have quite a decent amount in there. Light will not be the main deficiency, it will be iron, trace elements, and CO2. I would recommend Seachem Flourish + Flourish Excel for starters. That covers iron, trace, and somewhat covers CO2 (without the hassle of actually injecting CO2)

[Owen Stubbs]

So, you saying forget about adjusting the PH and just go with what is coming out of the tap?

You also suggesting I go ahead with a few of these plants, possibly supplemented with the Seachem product(s) you mention?

You getting enough attention to the books college boy (sorry - couldn't resist as I am just a bit older than you!!! :o) Don't give me crap about your books either. I have a BS, MBA, and M.Arch.... I have an idea what it takes to get there!! LOL!!!

You guys have been a great help - maybe too good! I probably have more confidence than what is deserved under the circumstances! :ezpi_wink1:

[Chrona]

So, you saying forget about adjusting the PH and just go with what is coming out of the tap?

You also suggesting I go ahead with a few of these plants, possibly supplemented with the Seachem product(s) you mention?

You getting enough attention to the books college boy (sorry - couldn't resist as I am just a bit older than you!!! :o) Don't give me crap about your books either. I have a BS, MBA, and M.Arch.... I have an idea what it takes to get there!! LOL!!!

You guys have been a great help - maybe too good! I probably have more confidence than what is deserved under the circumstances! :ezpi_wink1:

Yep. Playing with pH is a real PITA, both for you and your fish. The majority of fish can live in a wide range of pH's given time to adapt. It's the quick changes in pH that stress them. Later on, should you decide to make a soda bottle CO2 reactor, you want a slightly higher beginning pH so that with CO2, the pH will drop down to about 6.8 or so.

[Owen Stubbs]

Yep. Playing with pH is a real PITA, both for you and your fish. The majority of fish can live in a wide range of pH's given time to adapt. It's the quick changes in pH that stress them. Later on, should you decide to make a soda bottle CO2 reactor, you want a slightly higher beginning pH so that with CO2, the pH will drop down to about 6.8 or so.

I want to kick this thing off with minimal effort - thought live plants would look much nicer than plastic. Do I NEED to start with C02 bottle, or can I get started without? If I need one, I'm gonna be counting on you to help me get it started!!

[Chrona]

I want to kick this thing off with minimal effort - thought live plants would look much nicer than plastic. Do I NEED to start with C02 bottle, or can I get started without? If I need one, I'm gonna be counting on you to help me get it started!!

Start off slow and easy. If you add everything in at once, there will be so many variables to account for that if something goes wrong (and Murphy's law says that it will), you wouldn't be able to isolate the cause. Best to start with a few plants (2 java ferns and an anubias) and build up from there. And once the plants are healthy and growing, then you add CO2 (shoot me a pm :) )

[Owen Stubbs]

1) Reading a little more on plants, am I going to have problems with too much oxygen? Between my UGF & HOB, this tank is loaded with air bubbles!

2) 36 hr update on chemistry: ammonia >4ppm, nitrites 0.5ppm.

3) Should I do a bit of a water change as the cycling is progressing which will a) begin removing the Proper PH & b) begin elevating my PH to that of my tap water (dechlorinated)?

4) Why, exactly is Proper PH bad for plants?

5) What impact would these plants have on gravel vaccuming? To you just move the plants around, or leave the gravel in that area undisturbed?

6) What, if any, impact do shrimp have on the bioload? Are they added equally to the "fish inch" rule of thumb?

7) Speaking of stocking levels - what impact do plants have on stocking levels?

8) How would something like this be for an assortment: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] ?

9) finally - I'm still a bit irritated by this heater. Heater is a Hydor "theo" heater, 50 watt. When I first installed it a 10 days or so ago, I found that a setting of approximately 81F on the heater resulted in a constant temp of approximately 78F in a room with an ambient temp of 68F. For this fishless cycling, I cranked the heater to maximum, which on the dial is 91F, and only got a 2 degree increase to 80F. I certainly do not want to boil the fish, but sure seems like I have maxed out this heater and cannot help but wonder if the next size up would be better. Unfortunately, that is 100W, at least, that was the next side up at my LFS.

[Chrona]

1) Reading a little more on plants, am I going to have problems with too much oxygen? Between my UGF & HOB, this tank is loaded with air bubbles!

Oh, my bad. The thread was so long I forgot where we started. The reason I suggest java fern, java moss and anubias tied to rock/driftwood is that you can use a UGF with them, unlike other substrate rooted plants that would get tangled up in the plates after a while. Fill your tank with more water so that surface disturbance is minimal. The Biowheel will result in a lower CO2 content in your tank (usually 3-4 ppm, will be 1-2 ppm) which will result in a bit of CO2 deficiency, but you can supplement CO2 a bit with the Flourish Excel. Ideally, planted tanks should have canister filters, but HOB filters (without a Biowheel) work fine for small tanks as long as you don't have that waterfall effect. Although a HOB filter with a biowheel is not ideal, it will work so I suggest just going with what you have and seeing how it turns out

2) 36 hr update on chemistry: ammonia >4ppm, nitrites 0.5ppm.

Good. You shouldn't notice a nitrite spike for at least a day or two

3) Should I do a bit of a water change as the cycling is progressing which will a) begin removing the Proper PH & b) begin elevating my PH to that of my tap water (dechlorinated)?

The main purpose of a 75% water change after cycling is to remove the mass nitrates you have in the water, but in your case, it will also remove the Proper pH. The pH increasing is technically an undesirable side effect (unless you are planning to inject CO2 in the future, which it sounds like you are :) )

4) Why, exactly is Proper PH bad for plants?

Proper ph uses a phosphate acid buffering system, which, while MUCH stronger than a sulfur based buffering system (Seachem Acid Buffer), tends to throw your phosphate levels out of wack, and whenever nutrient levels are out of wack, algae takes over. In unplanted tanks, this is usually not a problem because the lighting is not left on for 10-12 hours at a time, and because most non-planted tanks don't have nearly as much light as planted ones (that doesn't apply to you as the 15 watter is standard for the 10g)

5) What impact would these plants have on gravel vaccuming? To you just move the plants around, or leave the gravel in that area undisturbed?

Just vaccuum around the plants. If you used anubias, java moss, java fern or other rock/driftwood attachable plants, they would be removable for tank cleaning (ie big clump of java moss sitting on the gravel, rock containing java moss/anubias, etc)

6) What, if any, impact do shrimp have on the bioload? Are they added equally to the "fish inch" rule of thumb?

Very little. Sometimes they will actually reduce the bioload by picking up food on the gravel that would otherwise rot. Unless you have a ton of shrimp, they do not count towards the inch rule (which is more of a very very very rough guideline rather than a rule)

7) Speaking of stocking levels - what impact do plants have on stocking levels?

They increase stocking capacity, as they basically act as a filter for waste. The exception of course, is if you have so many plants that your fish don't have enough area to swim around in.

8) How would something like this be for an assortment: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] ?

That's a pretty good price on that package. However, some of the stuff they claim (0.5 watts/gallon required? 5 watt bulb on a 10g will grow those plants, wtf?) is a bit off. You could just get the package and chuck out the plants that can't grow in your tank setup. It'd probably be cheaper than getting java fern for 7 bucks each at your LFS.

9) finally - I'm still a bit irritated by this heater. Heater is a Hydor "theo" heater, 50 watt. When I first installed it a 10 days or so ago, I found that a setting of approximately 81F on the heater resulted in a constant temp of approximately 78F in a room with an ambient temp of 68F. For this fishless cycling, I cranked the heater to maximum, which on the dial is 91F, and only got a 2 degree increase to 80F. I certainly do not want to boil the fish, but sure seems like I have maxed out this heater and cannot help but wonder if the next size up would be better. Unfortunately, that is 100W, at least, that was the next side up at my LFS.

Don't worry about it. As long as it can hold a constant 76-78, you are fine for tropical fish. You would really only go up to 80+ to treat certain illnesses and only for a few days anyways. Save the money for a nice substrate or more plants :) Make sure the heater is in an area with some flow though



Hope that helps

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks again - this plant stuff is beginning to be a big question mark. I have a UGF circulating water via air stones, not power heads. I have a HOB filter with a bio wheel, I probably need to use CO2 injection, which either means a DIY jug of sugar and yeast, or a tank/regulator/etc... I have also read about possibly using timers to shut down aeration for a few hours after the lights have been on for something like 4 hours. All this for a 10 gallon tank in my young son's bedroom!! Is this all just a formula for frustration?

BTW - I have a little waterfall effect going right now as the tank is down about a half inch.... but I am assuming, since I have no fish, and am early in my cycling process, that this is a good thing. Correct?

Probably time to start thinking about stocking this tank. Before I started reading about the fish/inch thing, I was originally thinking 6 glowlight danios, maybe a couple of swords or platties, then I wanted something for the bottom. But this now seems like it is too much, and I cannot find any bottom dwellers that say they are suitable for anything less than 30 gal. Plus, there is now the possibility of shrimp... :o)

[Chrona]

Thanks again - this plant stuff is beginning to be a big question mark. I have a UGF circulating water via air stones, not power heads. I have a HOB filter with a bio wheel, I probably need to use CO2 injection, which either means a DIY jug of sugar and yeast, or a tank/regulator/etc... I have also read about possibly using timers to shut down aeration for a few hours after the lights have been on for something like 4 hours. All this for a 10 gallon tank in my young son's bedroom!! Is this all just a formula for frustration?

BTW - I have a little waterfall effect going right now as the tank is down about a half inch.... but I am assuming, since I have no fish, and am early in my cycling process, that this is a good thing. Correct?

Probably time to start thinking about stocking this tank. Before I started reading about the fish/inch thing, I was originally thinking 6 glowlight danios, maybe a couple of swords or platties, then I wanted something for the bottom. But this now seems like it is too much, and I cannot find any bottom dwellers that say they are suitable for anything less than 30 gal. Plus, there is now the possibility of shrimp... :o)

Oh, I didn't realize the UGF was air pump powered. How do those work exactly? Do the bubbles hit the surface and pop, making surface disturbance? If so, that + the biowheel would pretty much render CO2 injection moot, since CO2 escapes from water so quickly (which is why the equilibrium levels of CO2 in water are so low) Planted tank owners with CO2 injection often use an air pump to remove excess CO2 at night, so it will pretty much take out CO2 as fast as you can put it in. You may want to reconsider the whole planted thing for now. The setup might work, but I can't say for sure. You could just make this tank simple, and once you/your daughter gets the hang of it, upgrade and get a larger tank with the full shebang and with good knowledge of what you need beforehand.

The waterfall is good for cycling. Bacteria needs lots of oxygen.

I haven't really had much/any experience with bottom dwellers in my 10g so I can't say. Perhaps some cories cats?

[Owen Stubbs]

The UGF with airstones is old school, pre-powerhead. Stones at the bottom of the vertical tubes. Bubbles create an upflow, same (but undoubtedly less powerful) than power heads. 90 degree elbows at the top of the tubes, at, or just below, the water surface. Not sure what the impact, but perhaps I could:

a) shut down UGF completely
b) replace air stones with power head(s).
c) remove bio wheel from filter
d) replace entire filtration system with canister? Have not seen one for a small 10g though.
e) some combination, or variation, of above?

[Chrona]

The UGF with airstones is old school, pre-powerhead. Stones at the bottom of the vertical tubes. Bubbles create an upflow, same (but undoubtedly less powerful) than power heads. 90 degree elbows at the top of the tubes, at, or just below, the water surface. Not sure what the impact, but perhaps I could:

a) shut down UGF completely
b) replace air stones with power head(s).
c) remove bio wheel from filter
d) replace entire filtration system with canister? Have not seen one for a small 10g though.
e) some combination, or variation, of above?

Depends on your budget I suppose :) Canister filters in a 10g tank are feasible, you just need to turn the outflow down a bit.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Fluval 105 (kinda expensive though) 125 gph (compared to 100 for most HOB filters rated for 10 gallons)

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Filstart XP1 - need to turn outflow way down. Good price though

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Eheim 2213 - Good price, 102 gph, and well....it's an Eheim, ;)

You could remove the biowheel and just dump some sintered glass bio media in the compartment after the filter cartridge. I would remove/shut down the UGF regardless, as the plants will probably provide better biological filtration than it will and you may want rooted planted later down the line.

[Owen Stubbs]

HOB is a Penguin Bio Wheel Mini - not much space in the compartment after the filter cartridge. Man, those canisters really seem like total overkill for a 10g tank, regardless of what they cost. I do not know the difference between a Fluval 104 and 105, but I have seen the 104 for 50 bucks online. What seems unclear between the Fluvals and the Eheims is whether or not the Fluvals are a complete system, or if you still need tubing, etc.

BTW - on an earlier post, you mentioned Cories. The info I have seen at retailers is that they need minimum 30g. ???

[Chrona]

HOB is a Penguin Bio Wheel Mini - not much space in the compartment after the filter cartridge. Man, those canisters really seem like total overkill for a 10g tank, regardless of what they cost. I do not know the difference between a Fluval 104 and 105, but I have seen the 104 for 50 bucks online. What seems unclear between the Fluvals and the Eheims is whether or not the Fluvals are a complete system, or if you still need tubing, etc.

BTW - on an earlier post, you mentioned Cories. The info I have seen at retailers is that they need minimum 30g. ???

I wasn't sure on the cories, never kept them, but others may be able to provide more information.

The biomedia is just like glass with a ton of holes in them for surface area. You can just put a small handful of it into the compartment for some extra bio filtration. When your plants really get going, you won't really need it anymore.

They do look like overkill, but keep in mind that flow rating is what matters. HOB filters are pretty terrible at filtering stuff compared to canisters. HOB's depend on gravity to bring water from one side of the media to the other. Canisters use a pump to force it through. HOB's have a relatively small layer of filtration, because it is gravity fed. Canisters, because water is forced through, can use many many layers of various filtration that would normally impede flow too much. Thus HOB's compensate for the poor filtration ability by moving large quantities of water though. Canisters move less water, but filter almost everything out the first pass, so canisters with equal flow ratings are usually rated for much larger tanks. The flow rating is what matters, because the only limit on how much filtration you have is how much current it will produce. A Filstar cranked up to a full 250gph will cause a mini whirpool in your tank.

Whether or not you get one is totally up to you though, I was just laying out all the options. Personally I couldn't justify a 70 dollar filter for a 10g tank (not that I don't want one ;) ) and I feel my 10g rated Whisper filter works just fine (no activated carbon or bio media, just a rough filter pad to catch big stuff and keep water moving) With one of those filters though, I can pretty much guarantee you that, barring a diatom/bacterial bloom, your water will be crystal clear. (My water is very slightly cloudy from the micro particles that the rough filter pad can't trap)

Filstars do not include all media. Fluvals and Eheims do. Some stores will include the media, but the price is usually higher, obviously.

[Owen Stubbs]

You seem to know your stuff Chrona - I also do not know if I can justify a $70 filter for a 10g tank. I would like the live plants, but wonder if that can be achieved with what I already have, such as TK'ing the UGF, and possibly removing the biowheel (although, wonder if the bio wheel can stay if the UGF is gone, and waterfall is minimized). Maybe I just shove a few java ferns in there and see what happens with the light on 12 hrs/day and/or shut down the filters and air pump during peak times, which I read was around +4hrs light.

Still need to stock this thing. Maybe need more input on the cories. Hopefully, someone will chime on in that.

Gonna take a stroll through the LFS tomorrow and see what they have in terms of canisters. Do not mind mail order, but always like knowing I can get something locally if need be.

Forgot to post water conditions earlier. 48 hrs in, Ammonia holding > 4ppm, nitrites now at 1.0ppm. So, what does a spike look like? Off the charts?

[Chrona]

You seem to know your stuff Chrona - I also do not know if I can justify a $70 filter for a 10g tank. I would like the live plants, but wonder if that can be achieved with what I already have, such as TK'ing the UGF, and possibly removing the biowheel (although, wonder if the bio wheel can stay if the UGF is gone, and waterfall is minimized). Maybe I just shove a few java ferns in there and see what happens with the light on 12 hrs/day and/or shut down the filters and air pump during peak times, which I read was around +4hrs light.

Still need to stock this thing. Maybe need more input on the cories. Hopefully, someone will chime on in that.

Gonna take a stroll through the LFS tomorrow and see what they have in terms of canisters. Do not mind mail order, but always like knowing I can get something locally if need be.

Forgot to post water conditions earlier. 48 hrs in, Ammonia holding > 4ppm, nitrites now at 1.0ppm. So, what does a spike look like? Off the charts?

Won't be long before you see the nitrite spike now. You'll know it when you see it :)

Yes, you can use what you have, but the UGF has to go for sure. The biowheel you can keep. No need to shut it off. Once you get more plant mass, you can remove the biowheel.

Also, Dr. F and S has some of the lowest prices for aquariums. I think you will probably find your LFS charges 100+ bucks for that 70 dollar canister.

[Owen Stubbs]

Hmm... if I wipe out the UGF, should I just leave it in place, or yank it out from under the gravel before we hit the nitrite spike?

I'll check out prices tomorrow on canisters, just for amusement. Plants too. Whatcha thinking on stocking based on my earlier comments, or would you rather defer that one for now?

[Chrona]

Hmm... if I wipe out the UGF, should I just leave it in place, or yank it out from under the gravel before we hit the nitrite spike?

I'll check out prices tomorrow on canisters, just for amusement. Plants too. Whatcha thinking on stocking based on my earlier comments, or would you rather defer that one for now?

I would yank out the whole thing now before you get too far into the cycle. Too many tubes and stuff to leave in a tank.

I'm gonna defer the fauna question for now, partly because I'm not sure on the cories and partly because I need sleep after pulling an all nighter for a thermo exam ;) (which, as my "luck" would have it, was canceled due to a foot of snow dropping out of the sky)

[Owen Stubbs]

Hmmm.... wonder if I am approaching the spike. 60 hrs in, nitrites now >2ppm, but appear less than 5ppm, which is the next, and highest point on my test card.

Could I leave the UGF in place, but shut down the air stones, giving me the option to fire it up at some future time if this plant stuff does not work out? Either that, or only run that filter at night?

Keep that snow out east! We had plenty of that here in the midwest this winter. Now I want spring!

[Chrona]

Hmmm.... wonder if I am approaching the spike. 60 hrs in, nitrites now >2ppm, but appear less than 5ppm, which is the next, and highest point on my test card.

Could I leave the UGF in place, but shut down the air stones, giving me the option to fire it up at some future time if this plant stuff does not work out?

Keep that snow out east! We had plenty of that here in the midwest this winter. Now I want spring!

You can leave the UGF in place. My recommendation was based on the assumption that the plants would work out :)

To be honest, I forget what my readings were like during my cycling. I believe the nitrites were off the charts though. It doesn't really make a big difference to the bacteria if you just keep adding ammonia until the nitrites are off the charts though.

[Owen Stubbs]

Went to 2 fish LFS's today. REALLY disappointing selection of plants. PetSmart was the worse. Nearly all of their plants were brown and rotten. PetLand had a few decent looking plants, but I got a little concerned when I saw what was either white spots, or tiny air bubbles, on the fish that were swimming right in the current of the water return.

Considered a power head to replace my air stones. I am assuming I would only need one, rather than the 2 air stones I currently have. That's $25. Makes me wonder if it would be a better idea to put that $25 toward a canister type filter.

Then I looked at the Fluval "plus" line of filters as a possible replacement for BOTH the HOB, and the UGF. Only downside I see is that it is INSIDE of a tank that is already limited in space. At least one modest benefit of the HOB is that it adds a slight gain in total water volume by containing some of the water, as well as not displacing the amount of water that a submerged filter would. Any opinions on these submersible filters?

So, right now, the plant concept is on hold until I can resolve this filter issue.... not to mention, finding a source for plants (preferrably local, but mail order might have to suffice).

[Owen Stubbs]

Nitrites now at 5ppm. Is this enough to be considered a spike? I added the full dose of ammonia anyway just in case it is not.

Another question - let's say I decide to supplement my gravel with laterite, which is going to greatly disturb the gravel. Should I keep the higher dose for an extra day or 2 before cutting back to half? I should add that my gravel is a mix of your standard aquarium gravel, and more of a medium, very smooth stone. Very natural looking with the combination.

[Chrona]

Nitrites now at 5ppm. Is this enough to be considered a spike? I added the full dose of ammonia anyway just in case it is not.

Another question - let's say I decide to supplement my gravel with laterite, which is going to greatly disturb the gravel. Should I keep the higher dose for an extra day or 2 before cutting back to half? I should add that my gravel is a mix of your standard aquarium gravel, and more of a medium, very smooth stone. Very natural looking with the combination.

Yes, you can probably cut back to 1/2 dosage for ammonia now. Keep in mind that the whole process really is not clearcut or precise in any way and is more of a general guideline with somewhat arbitrary numbers. I would not recommend laterite at this time, because the idea is to simplify things, and water column feeding plants don't need laterite supplementation anyways (and are the easiest to keep) Plus medium smooth gravel is a pretty bad substrate for growing rooted plants, so I wouldn't even bother at this point. Just stick to lots of java moss, java fern and anubias for now, they look great :)

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks Chrona - Yeah - I think I might have started opening too many variables with this whole plant thing. My poor son! DAD - WHEN WE GETTIN FISH???!!! :11: "ummm.... daddy's got the tank basically ammonia poisoned right now, thinking about ripping out the ugf, thinking about a new canister filter, thinking about substrate replacement, thinking about co2 infusion, thinking about plant fertilizer, thinking about...... " OK, SO WHEN WE GETTIN' FISH? :11: hehehe

I think I should consider some of these simple plants, supplement them as best I can, and get this project moving forward.

I can always pick up another tank, and possibly start some plant experiments there!

Tomorrow, I will cut back to 1/2 on the ammonia. Probably could have done that today.

Just finished reading this: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] about DIY CO2. Cannot help but wonder if it would be better getting one of the commercial systems for $30, then recharging it with yeast & sugar. Sure looks like that article has a better idea for a reactor though, one that is nearly duplicated by this PGP Power Reactor: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

BTW - saw your post on the plants subforum. Might just have to wait until you have cuttings to give away!! thumbs2:

[Chrona]

Thanks Chrona - Yeah - I think I might have started opening too many variables with this whole plant thing. My poor son! DAD - WHEN WE GETTIN FISH???!!! :11: "ummm.... daddy's got the tank basically ammonia poisoned right now, thinking about ripping out the ugf, thinking about a new canister filter, thinking about substrate replacement, thinking about co2 infusion, thinking about plant fertilizer, thinking about...... " OK, SO WHEN WE GETTIN' FISH? :11: hehehe

I think I should consider some of these simple plants, supplement them as best I can, and get this project moving forward.

I can always pick up another tank, and possibly start some plant experiments there!

Tomorrow, I will cut back to 1/2 on the ammonia. Probably could have done that today.

Just finished reading this: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] about DIY CO2. Cannot help but wonder if it would be better getting one of the commercial systems for $30, then recharging it with yeast & sugar. Sure looks like that article has a better idea for a reactor though, one that is nearly duplicated by this PGP Power Reactor: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

BTW - saw your post on the plants subforum. Might just have to wait until you have cuttings to give away!! thumbs2:

lol. I try to stick to the KISS (keep it simple stupid) principle whenever I can, but sometimes the engineer in me takes over and I just HAVE to have that gizmo.

A homemade system is better imo, because you can rig as many 2 liter soda bottles as you want for larger tanks, plus it's cheap. Don't bother with a fancy diffuser or a reactor for a 10g, just get a small airstone for the end of the output tube and stick it underneath your penguin intake. The impeller will chop up the bubbles.

So to sum up what you need:

Flourish
Flourish Excel
2 java ferns
2 anubias
ball of java moss
small airstone
air tubing (vinyl) - silicone tubing is better if you can get some

[Owen Stubbs]

Aren't you supposed to be on spring break or something - maybe down in Daytona catching a tan, and maybe a young lady? :o)

Trust me - I am just as anal as you.... I overanalyze everything. Ain't no way I am getting any java moss. LFS has crappy java ferns, so not sure if I might have to go mail order on that. Any other choices but the java ferns and the anubias? You do not agree with this seller's claims for a mindless planting solution? : [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] Not that I want to spend 40 bucks for plants, but I was going to try to pick up some/all of these locally (for instance, LFS has java ferns, in less than ideal condition, for $3).

[Chrona]

Aren't you supposed to be on spring break or something - maybe down in Daytona catching a tan, and maybe a young lady? :o)

Trust me - I am just as anal as you.... I overanalyze everything. Ain't no way I am getting any java moss. LFS has crappy java ferns, so not sure if I might have to go mail order on that. Any other choices but the java ferns and the anubias? You do not agree with this seller's claims for a mindless planting solution? : [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] Not that I want to spend 40 bucks for plants, but I was going to try to pick up some/all of these locally (for instance, LFS has java ferns, in less than ideal condition, for $3).

Alas, spring break was last week and I worked at my internship to pay for college :( Made 500 bucks after taxes though! :)

The plants they suggest are all fairly easy to grow and will do ok in low light, however, there is no such thing as a mindless planting solution, just as there i no mindless aquarium stocking solution (that will do well) and many of those plants are root feeders, which doesn't go well with the whole water column feeding idea. Crypts tend to melt after you change their lighting conditions (they will grow back after a few weeks) and I'm sure their nursery conditions will be different from yours. All in all, you are better off getting those cheap java fern. If they are in bad condition (do you mean algae covered, torn leaves, ?), it shouldn't be a problem as they are VERY resilient plants and will just grow new leaves so you can clip the old ones.

[Owen Stubbs]

Nothing wrong with a few bucks to fuel your aquarium habit instead of a huge expense on spring break.. In fact, I personally think it is better to get every single hour of internship you can regardless of what you have to give up in return!

I realize there is no ideal planting scenario, and this little tank of mine - I mean, MY SON'S :11: - is not properly set for root feeders.

LFS stock is pretty bad. They have 2 MH lamps above their plants, but one has been out for quite some time. The result has not been good. They need to fix that light, and get some new stock. That particular store keeps their plants in their own tanks. Another store has a few fish in theirs, and I questioned the health of the fish, but the plants looked better. However, I do not want to bring home plants that introduce fish diseases, assuming that is even possible.

I just wondered if there are any other plant varities that would work in my scenario other than the 2 you mentioned (java ferns & anubias).

[Chrona]

Nothing wrong with a few bucks to fuel your aquarium habit instead of a huge expense on spring break.. In fact, I personally think it is better to get every single hour of internship you can regardless of what you have to give up in return!

I realize there is no ideal planting scenario, and this little tank of mine - I mean, MY SON'S :11: - is not properly set for root feeders.

LFS stock is pretty bad. They have 2 MH lamps above their plants, but one has been out for quite some time. The result has not been good. They need to fix that light, and get some new stock. That particular store keeps their plants in their own tanks. Another store has a few fish in theirs, and I questioned the health of the fish, but the plants looked better. However, I do not want to bring home plants that introduce fish diseases, assuming that is even possible.

I just wondered if there are any other plant varities that would work in my scenario other than the 2 you mentioned (java ferns & anubias).

I will take a look around, but those are the most commonly used (and widely available plants for low lighting) and I don't think there are that many that are primarily water feeders.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Register and make a post here. Many members sell plants for cheap/only shipping cost, and the quality is generally very good. Java fern and anubias should not be a problem because everyone keeps or has kept them,

[Owen Stubbs]

Oh, Great! Just what I need - another forum to visit every day!! You have any idea how many forums, on all kinds of subjects, I hit daily as it already is? LMAO!

Seriously - thanks again for your continued support of my issues Chrona - I really appreciate it!

Anyway, there HAS to be more than 2 plants that will work. No? I will certainly try to obtain the 2 you have suggested, either locally, via mail order, or maybe this new site you linked, but I was just wondering if there were other plants so I could do some research.

Maybe that site you referenced would be good, mostly because they are not commercial operations, merely people who have experience and are willing so share that experience (like you), and also share the results (ie, plants).

However, I feel kinda funny just walking into a new site and just asking - "Hey, anyone got some plants you want to get rid of and ship to Chicago?" Or, is that just how it works?

[Chrona]

Oh, Great! Just what I need - another forum to visit every day!! You have any idea how many forums, on all kinds of subjects, I hit daily as it already is? LMAO!

Seriously - thanks again for your continued support of my issues Chrona - I really appreciate it!

Anyway, there HAS to be more than 2 plants that will work. No? I will certainly try to obtain the 2 you have suggested, either locally, via mail order, or maybe this new site you linked, but I was just wondering if there were other plants so I could do some research.

Maybe that site you referenced would be good, mostly because they are not commercial operations, merely people who have experience and are willing so share that experience (like you), and also share the results (ie, plants).

However, I feel kinda funny just walking into a new site and just asking - "Hey, anyone got some plants you want to get rid of and ship to Chicago?" Or, is that just how it works?

For the free plants, you usually have to wait for someone to make a post and jump on it. I think it's kind of frowned upon to ask for freebies. Otherwise, just post a Wanted: Java fern, etc thread in that forum if you are willing to pay a bit for them.

Btw, my help is billed by the hour. I will be sure to PM you the bill at the end of this ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

By the time you send me the bill, I will not be able to afford the fish! :o)

I stopped by a different LFS today - they had a 28 watt, double light fixture. I think the brand was coralite. They wanted $50 for it, but I have a coupon that would knock it down to $40. That would provide nearly 3 watts/gal. Is that a worthwhile addition, or am I still overly limited on plant variety by the gravel?

Nitrites definitely at, or above 5ppm, which is as high as my test kit registers. 1/2 ammonia doseage starts tonight, and could probably have started last night. What is the average remaining time until I see 0 on nitrites and ammonia? I'm guessing 3-4 days?

[Chrona]

By the time you send me the bill, I will not be able to afford the fish! :o)

I stopped by a different LFS today - they had a 28 watt, double light fixture. I think the brand was coralite. They wanted $50 for it, but I have a coupon that would knock it down to $40. That would provide nearly 3 watts/gal. Is that a worthwhile addition, or am I still overly limited on plant variety by the gravel?

Nitrites definitely at, or above 5ppm, which is as high as my test kit registers. 1/2 ammonia doseage starts tonight, and could probably have started last night. What is the average remaining time until I see 0 on nitrites and ammonia? I'm guessing 3-4 days?

It will probably be about another week before ammonia and nitrites all go to 0. As for the fixture, is it this one?

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I have the same one over my tank and it works great. Even with the 50/50 bulb that comes with it, plant growth will be good (and the color is amazing). I recently switched to a full spectrum 6700k bulb and plant growth has taken off a bit, but the color is more yellow as you can see in this thread: (though it may be partly due to the hazy water/brown algae growing on the glass)

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

EDIT: working on the images, gimme 5 minutes or so.

[Owen Stubbs]

Yes - same model light fixture. Sux because I had just bought a new fluorescent hood for this tank 2 weeks ago because the other was bad. Not sure the Coralife light will fit where the current one is, and I really do not want to scrap the entire hood. However, like I said, that light is only $40+tax.

I'm still debating about removing the UGF. Will that be a huge set back on the cycling, or am I still good to go since I just achieved my nitrite spike within the past 24 hrs?

[Chrona]

Yes - same model light fixture. Sux because I had just bought a new fluorescent hood for this tank 2 weeks ago because the other was bad. Not sure the Coralife light will fit where the current one is, and I really do not want to scrap the entire hood. However, like I said, that light is only $40+tax.

I'm still debating about removing the UGF. Will that be a huge set back on the cycling, or am I still good to go since I just achieved my nitrite spike within the past 24 hrs?

No, the Coralife fixture is about 5 inches wide. You need to get a glass top (if you are going to get jumping fish) and some mounting legs made by coralife. Again, we may be overdoing it, as the whole point was to set up a low light low maintenance tank :) With higher light, you need to worry about CO2 and fertilizer dosing, and stuff tends to go wrong quicker (in terms of nutrient imbalance and algae) under higher light

Removing the UGF will not really do much to your cycle, maybe set it back like a day at the most, because the bacteria living in the gravel doesn't really go anywhere, and will settle back down.

[Owen Stubbs]

The problem here is I am really torn between totally low maintenance/tech/plants, or a well planted tank. I both understand the benefits of a well planted tank as well as appreciate the appearance.

I am also at a point right now where I can adjust all the variables without impact (other than to my wallet!). If, for instance, I quickly yank the UGF, supplement the substrate, and possibly swap the light, I now have considerably greater options for plants. However, I didn't realize that the higher lighting, of what would amount to 2.8 watts/gal, brought with it a co2 requirement. I have been reading all about those, and was still undecided.

Right now, the biggest decision is the UGF. Prior to bio wheel type filters, UGF's were a huge step forward in biological filtration. Perhaps now, with a biowheel filter, the UGF is contributing almost nothing to the overall process. Is this highly probable??

EDIT: Let me ask this, if increasing the light level might be a bad idea due to increased maintenance, would supplementing the gravel with something like flourite also be a bad idea, or a good one, IF I stay with the 15W?

[Owen Stubbs]

Completed first dose of ammonia at 1/2, so hope that is the correct action given all the other open variables I have right now. Could still use some input on my previous post if anyone (read: Chrona! LOL!) has the time!! Actually, kidding on that last one... don't want to exclude anyone else. Love reading all the posts here. Between this site, and links to others, I have been getting quite an education on aquariums these past few days! Cannot thank you all enough for sharing your experiences!

[Chrona]

The problem here is I am really torn between totally low maintenance/tech/plants, or a well planted tank. I both understand the benefits of a well planted tank as well as appreciate the appearance.

I am also at a point right now where I can adjust all the variables without impact (other than to my wallet!). If, for instance, I quickly yank the UGF, supplement the substrate, and possibly swap the light, I now have considerably greater options for plants. However, I didn't realize that the higher lighting, of what would amount to 2.8 watts/gal, brought with it a co2 requirement. I have been reading all about those, and was still undecided.

Right now, the biggest decision is the UGF. Prior to bio wheel type filters, UGF's were a huge step forward in biological filtration. Perhaps now, with a biowheel filter, the UGF is contributing almost nothing to the overall process. Is this highly probable??

EDIT: Let me ask this, if increasing the light level might be a bad idea due to increased maintenance, would supplementing the gravel with something like flourite also be a bad idea, or a good one, IF I stay with the 15W?

Nope, Flourite (once settled in) is pretty much bulletproof no matter what the other conditions are, since it's inert and only provides as much iron/trace as the plants require. Root feeders will do much better and you have more choices for plants, such as crypts, etc. Make sure you wash it thoroughly though, and replace the filter media (1/2 of it at a time) that will get caked with Flourite dust. Or better yet, switch in a new filter media with extra filter floss to take care of the dust while keeping the ripe bacteria laden one in a container of tank water.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]
-credits to Glasstapper for finding this site.


With a biowheel and live plants, I doubt you would need any additional biological filtration.

High light does not necessarily equate to high maintenance. Once it's balanced, it's just a matter of adding X amount of X fertilizer on X day and changing out your CO2 mixture every 2-4 weeks. Just print out a schedule on Excel. It's getting to that balanced stage that is harder in high light aquariums. I've been fortunate not to have had any other algae than diatoms but I've seen some real nightmare cases where the guy's tanks are covered in hair algae, brush algae, etc for a month. Over time, with persistence, a constant fertilization schedule and increased plant growth, everything balances out. If you are going to go with the 28 watt fixture, I would definitely recommend some fast growers like anacharis or wisteria, or some form of hygro. They grow fast and outcompete the algae. Later on, when you want to trim less, you can switch these out for slower growing plants.

[hungryhound]

post deleted because I am an idiot and thought the first post in the thread was the last. lol

[Chrona]

Just vacuum around the plants. It's not really practical to uproot stuff like amazon swords or a big patch of carpet plants each time you do a water change anyways ;)

Make sure you don't overfeed and add more waste (in the form of rotting fish flakes) to the bottom of the tank though.

[hungryhound]

thanks for your info chrona. I accidentally thought the end of page 1 was the end of the thread and posted a response that was needless. Apparently I was not fast enough with the deletion of the post.

Anyways, thanks for the info. IT is good to know that I don't have to uproot my plants every time I vacuum. I had to move one of my amazon swords a couple of days ago and I had trouble pulling its roots out without breaking them.

[Chrona]

thanks for your info chrona. I accidentally thought the end of page 1 was the end of the thread and posted a response that was needless. Apparently I was not fast enough with the deletion of the post.

Anyways, thanks for the info. IT is good to know that I don't have to uproot my plants every time I vacuum. I had to move one of my amazon swords a couple of days ago and I had trouble pulling its roots out without breaking them.

I tend to ninja post like that :)

[Owen Stubbs]

Nope, Flourite (once settled in) is pretty much bulletproof no matter what the other conditions are, since it's inert and only provides as much iron/trace as the plants require. Root feeders will do much better and you have more choices for plants, such as crypts, etc. Make sure you wash it thoroughly though, and replace the filter media (1/2 of it at a time) that will get caked with Flourite dust. Or better yet, switch in a new filter media with extra filter floss to take care of the dust while keeping the ripe bacteria laden one in a container of tank water.

I am not sure what my options are here. The HOB filter I have is a Penguin mini/100: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]. It has a single cartrige - I cannot really replace 1/2 at a time. It is an all or nothing deal.

[Chrona]

I am not sure what my options are here. The HOB filter I have is a Penguin mini/100: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]. It has a single cartrige - I cannot really replace 1/2 at a time. It is an all or nothing deal.

Oh, sorry I meant stuff the compartment with as much filter floss as you can without causing overflow. The blue bonded pads on those filters won't be able to catch Flourite dust (well) Filter floss is cheap, effective and disposable.

[cocoa_pleco]

The floss is also called pollywool. Very effective.

[Owen Stubbs]

Well crap - the LFS is out of any kind of planting substrate except laterite, and based on other posts here, I think I will avoid that.

So, here is the plan. Tomorrow morning I yank the UGF. Hopefully, toward the end of the week they have Flourite, or an equivalent. That takes me a fair way into my nitrite>nitrate cycle. Sound OK, or should I keep my ammonia at the higher level for now, instead of the 1/2?

[Chrona]

Well crap - the LFS is out of any kind of planting substrate except laterite, and based on other posts here, I think I will avoid that.

So, here is the plan. Tomorrow morning I yank the UGF. Hopefully, toward the end of the week they have Flourite, or an equivalent. That takes me a fair way into my nitrite>nitrate cycle. Sound OK, or should I keep my ammonia at the higher level for now, instead of the 1/2?

Take the gravel/UGF out, start doing full ammonia dosage again. The idea here will be to house all of the needed bacteria in the biowheel instead of in the biowheel and the substrate. Thus, when you switch in Flourite, it will not make a noticeable difference on cycling.

[Owen Stubbs]

Gotcha.... had an itch a few minutes ago and was ready to yank the UGF right then. Problem was, my son was sleeping a few feet from the aquarium, and my tinkering around started to wake him up, so it will definitely have to wait till morning. Hate that loud air pump anyway, so this is not exactly a bad thing! thumbs2:

[Owen Stubbs]

UGF removed. Flourite mixed in with existing gravel. Water about as clear as mud even after rinsing like crazy through a mesh bag. Filter stuffed with floss. Son looking at me like I have just killed his dream! Time for a beer!! thumbs2:

[Chrona]

UGF removed. Flourite mixed in with existing gravel. Water about as clear as mud even after rinsing like crazy through a mesh bag. Filter stuffed with floss. Son looking at me like I have just killed his dream! Time for a beer!! thumbs2:

LOL. Pat him on the head and tell him this is no longer his tank ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

LOL. Pat him on the head and tell him this is no longer his tank ;) I think I used that explanation up several days ago! LOL!!! Torn between how often to change the floss. A dirty filter is actually a BETTER filter. The flow, however, is stronger through a clean one.

Also - is it safe to assume that this haze is going to return during planting and any subsequent vacuuming?

[Chrona]

I think I used that explanation up several days ago! LOL!!! Torn between how often to change the floss. A dirty filter is actually a BETTER filter. The flow, however, is stronger through a clean one.

Also - is it safe to assume that this haze is going to return during planting and any subsequent vacuuming?

Toss the new floss that gets Flourite dust on it as soon as you start to get overflow, then replace with new stuff. Keep doing this until you get very little dust. During this time, you should have your old, ripe filter media floating in the tank or something. Continue with the ammonia and cycling.

The haze will return with planting if you get root feeders and have to move the substrate around a lot. It doesn't occur with vacuumings however, if you do it right. Insert the vacuum hose straight down and don't move it laterally. The vacuum will then suck up any dust it does kick up. Note that you'll never get Flourite 100% clean, since it the clay rubs against each other and makes more dust.

[Owen Stubbs]

The floss is doing a good job. Now I need to decide whether or not to remove some of the total substrate. I added the full 15lb bag of Flourite to what I already had, which was a mix of normal gravel, and what would more accurately be described as small stone. This gives me a bottom coverage of about 2-2-1/2 inches toward the front, and about 3-3-1/2 inches at the rear. That is really taking up a lot of cubic volume. Wonder if I should dig out a bit... opinion?

[Chrona]

The floss is doing a good job. Now I need to decide whether or not to remove some of the total substrate. I added the full 15lb bag of Flourite to what I already had, which was a mix of normal gravel, and what would more accurately be described as small stone. This gives me a bottom coverage of about 2-2-1/2 inches toward the front, and about 3-3-1/2 inches at the rear. That is really taking up a lot of cubic volume. Wonder if I should dig out a bit... opinion?

You can probably take out a bit (pick the gravel out, not the Flourite). I have about 2 inches in the back and an inch-1.5 inch in the front. Had I known you were going to mix the Flourite in I would have told you that 15lbs is plenty of a 10g tank. For some reason, I was under the impression you were yanking the UGF and all of the gravel. Oh well :rolleyes:

[Owen Stubbs]

There is no way to distinguish between the gravel and the Flourite - they are similar colors. Actually, I love the look of the deeper substrate. My biggest concern is displacing the additional water, potentially reducing the number of fish I can put in this small tank. Is that an unfounded concern?

[Chrona]

There is no way to distinguish between the gravel and the Flourite - they are similar colors. Actually, I love the look of the deeper substrate. My biggest concern is displacing the additional water, potentially reducing the number of fish I can put in this small tank. Is that an unfounded concern?

The difference will be minimal really, since the plant mass will more than account for the increased bioload. However, my only concern is physical space, as packed fish tend to display uncharacteristic aggression (ie my cardinal tetras) You can have the thick bed, but try to go light on the tank load with slower moving fish.

[Owen Stubbs]

I dug out a few pounds of substrate. Should have isolated the original gravel/stone mix, but didn't, which means part of what I removed is the - just added - Flourite. I can live with that.

Cannot express enough my appreciation for the continued input. This is both new, and somewhat a reminder of a past forray into this particular hobby! Sure is getting exciting though - thinking of how this will all pan out. The best benefit so far is that my son is really starting to comprehend how all these little pieces of the puzzle fit with one another. We are learning together, and that makes it all worthwhile! The best aquascupltured tank out there cannot compare to a modest endeavor that opens a child's eyes.

[Owen Stubbs]

I would say a good 90%+ of the haze has disappeared. What I am left with now is more of a white haze, but that is rapidly clearing up as well. I never backed off from 100% on the ammonia, and the original filter cartridge was sitting in a tank of pre-flourite water, but is now back in the tank, although, not in the filter. Should I give this thing another day or 2 at 100% ammonia before backing off to 50%? Ammonia dipped a little, even with my 100%, but I got it back up to > 4ppm. Nitrites off the chart. Nitrates at 10ppm.

Also, time to start thinking of next steps. To recap, this is a 10gal tank. Fluorescent light hood @ 15 watts. I was willing to increase this to the 28 watt fixture described earlier, unless that is asking for trouble. Thought that only got me to the "moderate" light level, but if it creates significantly more headache potential (CO2, excessive chemicals, explosive algae attacks, etc), I would rather wait. If not, I will do it now.

Substrate something like 50/50 fluorite and gravel. Prior to Flourite, the gravel was a blend of something nearly identical in size and color to Flourite, and slightly larger gravel - better defined as stone. So - at least 75% of substrate is the size of Flourite.

Want plants. Do not want CO2 to be a requirement, but am willing to consider it later. I expect to treat with Flourish (not sure if liquid or tabs are best - input welcome). Also expect to treat with Flourish Excel (this seems to immediately take certain plants out of contention, just not sure which) unless there is a substitute that does not kill the plants. So, need input on types of plants, and quantities (or some qualifier). Java Ferns, Annubias Nana and banana plant have been previous suggestions, but that was also when I had only gravel. Quantities are also a bit of a mystery because over on the planted forum, there are numerous discussions about starting off "dense".

Fish will probably be some small (1 to 1-1/2") schooling tetra or danio. If I can also get some platys in there, or a swordtail, great. Same goes for dorys. My son loves the idea of red cherry shrimp, just not sure if I have to wait until there is algae for them to eat, or they can start off with algae tabs.

Looking forward to suggestions based on above parameters!

[Owen Stubbs]

Chrona - any input, or have I worn out my welcome?

[Chrona]

I would say a good 90%+ of the haze has disappeared. What I am left with now is more of a white haze, but that is rapidly clearing up as well. I never backed off from 100% on the ammonia, and the original filter cartridge was sitting in a tank of pre-flourite water, but is now back in the tank, although, not in the filter. Should I give this thing another day or 2 at 100% ammonia before backing off to 50%? Ammonia dipped a little, even with my 100%, but I got it back up to > 4ppm. Nitrites off the chart. Nitrates at 10ppm.

You can back off ammonia to 1/2 dosage now

Also, time to start thinking of next steps. To recap, this is a 10gal tank. Fluorescent light hood @ 15 watts. I was willing to increase this to the 28 watt fixture described earlier, unless that is asking for trouble. Thought that only got me to the "moderate" light level, but if it creates significantly more headache potential (CO2, excessive chemicals, explosive algae attacks, etc), I would rather wait. If not, I will do it now.

Just wait, 28 watts is causing me a lot of issues that I never had before (like algae), despite the fact that plant growth has taken off since then. It's important to note that should you decide to go to 28 watts, you do NOT want to turn it on at all until your cycling is complete and you've done the large water change, because all that ammonia + light will give you green water from hell

Substrate something like 50/50 fluorite and gravel. Prior to Flourite, the gravel was a blend of something nearly identical in size and color to Flourite, and slightly larger gravel - better defined as stone. So - at least 75% of substrate is the size of Flourite.

Want plants. Do not want CO2 to be a requirement, but am willing to consider it later. I expect to treat with Flourish (not sure if liquid or tabs are best - input welcome). Also expect to treat with Flourish Excel (this seems to immediately take certain plants out of contention, just not sure which) unless there is a substitute that does not kill the plants. So, need input on types of plants, and quantities (or some qualifier). Java Ferns, Annubias Nana and banana plant have been previous suggestions, but that was also when I had only gravel. Quantities are also a bit of a mystery because over on the planted forum, there are numerous discussions about starting off "dense".

With the 15 watt bulb and Flourite substrate, you can grow some other plants suitable for a 10g tank, but not all of them will grow well. Plants that will grow well include crypts (you may initially experience, crypt melt, where the leaves melt off due to changing lighting conditions. Just wait and they will grow back). I've also grown amazon swords and some variety of ludwigia (dunno what it is), even though both are said to require high lighting. Both grew, but looked to be only in moderate shape, with somewhat stunted growth. However, I've also tried pygmy chain swords, which require high light, almost died under 15 watts, and is still really struggling and not growing under 28 watts, co2, and a fert regime. What's good about getting low light requirement plants is that you know they will always grow well (with the exception of very high lighting over anubias) no matter what condition they are in. You can take a look at the LFS selection and see if anyone there is knowledgable, or write the names down and look them up online.

Starting off with a densely planted tank full of fast growing stems is the traditional approach to maturing a tank for plant use by warding off algae during the transitional stage, but I feel this really only applies for higher lighting/nutrients/CO2. With 15 watts, I never had ANY algae issues. Your mileage may vary, so you can try some nutrient sponges like any variety of Hygrophila or anacharis (only if you don't use Excel)

Flourish Excel cannot be used with Anacharis and any type of Vals (maybe more but those are the most common ones) Liquid Flourish is for all plants, Flourish tabs provides further conditioning for rooted plants. You can use both. I haven't used Flourish tabs before and just use Flourish.

It's important to keep in mind that I'm not an expert (nor do I claim to be) so I may be wrong on some things and some things I suggest that have worked great for me may simply not work for you. My advice should be helpful in avoided common pitfalls, but sometimes you just have to try it out or ask for a second opinion

Fish will probably be some small (1 to 1-1/2") schooling tetra or danio. If I can also get some platys in there, or a swordtail, great. Same goes for dorys. My son loves the idea of red cherry shrimp, just not sure if I have to wait until there is algae for them to eat, or they can start off with algae tabs.

Cherry shrimp eat detritus and algae just fine. Algae tabs are good, as long as the other fish don't steal them of course ;) I would recommend some smaller tetras, like neons, coupled with a single platy for a central fish. Later on you can try a dwarf gourami, once your tank is well matured. Since this is a planted tank you may want to consider some oto cats, as you probably will start seeing brown algae (diatoms) pretty soon from the Flourite. Also keep in mind that tetras are schooling fish, and so should be in groups of 5 or more to exhibit this behavior and good coloration. Should you decide to get tetras, then you will be close to stocking capacity, and will be limited on what other fish you can get. Cherry shrimp don't factor into this equation, as they produce very little bioload in small numbers (careful they don't take over your tank ;) ), and often reduce the total bioload by picking off food before it rots. With a heavily planted tank, you can usually get away with a bit more fish though, but ideally you don't want to approach this limit. I kept 5 cardinal tetras, 4 molly fry, 2 inch long angelfish, siamese algae eater, and an oto cat in my 10g for a while with immediate health issues, but aggression increased as living quarters were cramped. I've since taken out the angelfish and SAE and replaced them with 2 oto cats and a dwarf gourami and things seem to have calmed down a bit. Note some fish (usually the semi-aggressive/active ones, ie SAE + angelfish) need more room than usual.

Looking forward to suggestions based on above parameters!

Welcomes are never worn out here. This thread has probably helped a lot of people out. Thanks for the recaps btw, I've forgotten what happened 91 posts ago lol.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks again Chrona - I realize you are not an expert. I don't have to go very far back in time to see posts by you asking start-up type questions. Sometimes, the input of someone who has just recently been through the same thing is more valuable, and relevant, than someone who has had decades of experience!!!

I will cut ammonia to half, and postpone, or forget about, increased light.

As I wrap up the cycling process, would it be better to get plants in first, or fish? I understand that, once the cycling is done, you really want fish in ASAP otherwise the nice bacteria colony created will simply die off. However, I also know that getting the plants in will create quite a flourite dust cloud, so that makes me think it might be better to get those in first, even if I keep my ammonia dosage at 1/2 even if the nitrites have returned to zero.

Meanwhile, I need to find a good source for plants. Nothing decent at the LFS's in my immediate area, but I did hear good things about a store about 45 minutes away. Mail order is another possibility.

[Chrona]

Thanks again Chrona - I realize you are not an expert. I don't have to go very far back in time to see posts by you asking start-up type questions. Sometimes, the input of someone who has just recently been through the same thing is more valuable, and relevant, than someone who has had decades of experience!!!

I will cut ammonia to half, and postpone, or forget about, increased light.

As I wrap up the cycling process, would it be better to get plants in first, or fish? I understand that, once the cycling is done, you really want fish in ASAP otherwise the nice bacteria colony created will simply die off. However, I also know that getting the plants in will create quite a flourite dust cloud, so that makes me think it might be better to get those in first, even if I keep my ammonia dosage at 1/2 even if the nitrites have returned to zero.

Meanwhile, I need to find a good source for plants. Nothing decent at the LFS's in my immediate area, but I did hear good things about a store about 45 minutes away. Mail order is another possibility.

I would wait until your tank is fully cycled, do the large water change, then add plants in and the fish an hour or two after that. Flourite dust did not really bother my fish at all and if you are careful you won't get that much.

I would search this forum, like I mentioned a while ago. Mail order is fine, but you generally get more plant for the buck from a fellow hobbyist who is just sending you his excess clippings anyways.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Owen Stubbs]

Yeah - I've been watching the posts over there. Didn't notice anyone recently offering the plants you specifically mentioned though. Let me know if you see a post over there for something that would be good for my circumstances. There is one guy selling "Pellia" who lives in Chicago, but I don't know if that plant meets my specs and, from the photo he posted, it looks fairly "bushy", like it would quickly overrun a 10g tank leaving no swimming room for the fish.

[Chrona]

Just post a wanted ad for java fern, java moss and anubias.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thought you said to stay away from java moss??? Christmas moss a better choice? Also, with these mosses, do you tie those to things too (ie driftwood) or does it float around the tank and take hold somewhere on its own? Also, is there a risk of bringing home a fish disease from plants? Saw a few decent ones at a LFS, but a few of the fish in the tank looked like they might have ick.

[Chrona]

Thought you said to stay away from java moss??? Christmas moss a better choice? Also, with these mosses, do you tie those to things too (ie driftwood) or does it float around the tank and take hold somewhere on its own? Also, is there a risk of bringing home a fish disease from plants? Saw a few decent ones at a LFS, but a few of the fish in the tank looked like they might have ick.

Sorry if I sounded contradictory, I said stay away from Java moss because it gets into everything, but it certainly is the easiest plant to grow and will probably provide the most satisfaction as people tend to get annoyed how slow some of the other plants (ie anubias) grow.

Christmas moss (or most other mosses) will grow very slowly under 15 watts. Not sure if this is desirable for you.

In either case, you want to tie it down to something that is removable, ie a rock or driftwood, as it makes for easy trimming and cleaning. Mosses tend to get dirty without cleaning shrimp so it makes it much easiest if you can remove them and shake them in a bucket of water or something.

It is possible to bring in diseases from plants, but for the most part, there isn't much you can do about it besides soaking it on tap water for an hour, then some vigourous swigging in clean water(potassium permaganate or bleach dips often kill the plant as well). Most diseases are present in the water at all times dormant anyways, so the best defense is to keep your fish healthy. As long as your fish are healthy to begin with and not overly stressed their immune system will take care of the vast majority of diseases.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks again Chrona. Just posted a WTB thread on plantedtank. I have plenty of fishing line - will that work?

After an initial chemical dosing of fertilizers, will the tank again need a major water change? Are chemicals added right away, and lights immediately at 12-14 hrs/day?

[Chrona]

Thanks again Chrona. Just posted a WTB thread on plantedtank. I have plenty of fishing line - will that work?

After an initial chemical dosing of fertilizers, will the tank again need a major water change? Are chemicals added right away, and lights immediately at 12-14 hrs/day?

What chemicals are you referring to? You won't need NPK for a while. Lights should be left on for 10 hours, 12 max. The normal photoperiod of plants is about 8 hours, give or take, so any more light just grows algae.

[Owen Stubbs]

What chemicals are you referring to? You won't need NPK for a while. Lights should be left on for 10 hours, 12 max. The normal photoperiod of plants is about 8 hours, give or take, so any more light just grows algae.Flourish and Flourish Excel were the fertilizers you recommended.... and I had planned to use.

[Chrona]

Flourish and Flourish Excel were the fertilizers you recommended.... and I had planned to use.

Oh, just follow the instructions on the label. Flourish is 1 ml per 10g of water once a week, and Flourish Excel is 1 ml per 10g daily, with 5 ml after a large (more than 40% water change) You may need to dose slightly more Flourish than it says though, like twice a week or something. I was referring to N (nitrogen) P (phosphates) and K (potassium) which you won't need, at least not for a while. It's always a good idea to have trace in the tank because the plants will use up the reserves they have stores quickly. The Excel will help with growth and inhibit algae growth.

By the way, thanks for helping me reach for 2k posts ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

I was referring to N (nitrogen) P (phosphates) and K (potassium) which you won't need. It's always a good idea to have trace in the tank because the plants will use up the reserves they have quickly.You saying I need N & P, not K, or you saying I do not need any of it, because in an earlier message you said:You won't need NPK for a while.

[Chrona]

You saying I need N & P, not K, or you saying I do not need any of it, because in an earlier message you said:

You won't need NPK (when your tank starts to become heavily planted, you may need iron + potassium). Fish waste and food provides phosphates and nitrates, and there is a bit of potassium and iron in Flourish I believe, which covers your low light/low growth plants pretty well. I need to start being more consistent huh? ;)

[Chrona]

By the way, I saw your post in PT. Don't listen to that guy. Rex's info is great, but it's for tanks with more lighting (since it include a fertilization regime. In a low light tank, you'll need a lot more stems and they won't do that well. Furthermore, as Rex himself said, you still need to wait a month or so before taking the plants out. The planted tank cycling process is perfectly viable, but ask yourself:

1) Do I want to spend 20 bucks on stems that I'll toss out later because they may or may not grow well under 15 watts?

2) Do I want to wait a few months for my tank to mature when it could be fully cycled within a week (and stabilized for plants after another few weeks)?

Thanks for all the references though ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

Hehehehe - I was about to post a reply, but the dinner bell rang, and I never got around to it. I checked every plant that article referenced, and all but 1 were medium/high/very high light requirements, and that was to be the nature of my message. Would be nice if the author revised the article to specifically mention that. I still appreciate the fact that the guy posted the article - who knows, I might do a "plants first - fish second" (priority wise) tank some day, and the info was good to know.

Now - what do you mean by"...and stabilized for plants after another few weeks"? I had presumed that, once the cycling was complete, the tank WAS ready for plants?

[Chrona]

Hehehehe - I was about to post a reply, but the dinner bell rang, and I never got around to it. I checked every plant that article referenced, and all but 1 were medium/high/very high light requirements, and that was to be the nature of my message. Would be nice if the author revised the article to specifically mention that. I still appreciate the fact that the guy posted the article - who knows, I might do a "plants first - fish second" (priority wise) tank some day, and the info was good to know.

Now - what do you mean by"...and stabilized for plants after another few weeks"? I had presumed that, once the cycling was complete, the tank WAS ready for plants?

Oh it'll be ready for plants. You may have algae issues for a bit until all the nutrients balance themselves out and the substrate matures (Flourite by itself is inert, but it holds many nutrients as they break down. Of course, getting to the stage where Flourite is laden with the stuff takes a few weeks usually. You have to go through this stage regardless of what approach you take to cycling, unless you happen to get really lucky). I put in Flourite about a month ago, and the brown algae is dying off (with the help of some otos), but blue green algae is moving in. Once that's done with, I should have no more problems with algae :) However I put in the new light along with Flourite, so it's tough to say what will happen with low light. I'm fairly certain you will at the very least get brown algae though, but, as Rex wrote, very few people have yet to bypass that.

[Owen Stubbs]

I have been setting up this tank for so long, I'm not sure I would mind algae - at least SOMETHING would be living in the tank! :hmm3grin2orange:

I did get someone to offer some moss, and another person offered to send 5-8 "leaves" of anubias. Not sure if that means a 5-8 leaf plant, or if that means individual "leaves". Does this plant produce roots from individual leaves?

[Chrona]

No he means a 5-8 leaf rhizome. Propogation of anubias is by rhizome division. Double check with him before sending the money though lol.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks Chrona - I will double check. I did trip across some java ferns at one of the LFS in my area - these things were huge... like 30 leaves. Can you take a big thing like that and either break it apart, or cut it apart to form seperate plants?

[Chrona]

Thanks Chrona - I will double check. I did trip across some java ferns at one of the LFS in my area - these things were huge... like 30 leaves. Can you take a big thing like that and either break it apart, or cut it apart to form seperate plants?

Yes, you can cut the rhizome into parts using a sharp knife and cutting at a 45 degree angle. Make sure each rhizome still has like 3-4 leaves though. If the leaves themselves are big, then there isn't much you can do about it right away. You can cut off the larger leaves one at a time, waiting for new leaves to come back before trimming off more and eventually you will have a smaller bush.

[Owen Stubbs]

Just a quick update. No plants purchased just yet. Water still looking a bit hazy since adding Flourite, but very near crystal clear. Lost my eyedropper for adding ammonia, so went to the drug store and bought another. This one had, what appeared to me, to be a larger opening than my last. However, turns out that it measured out exactly the same in terms of 30 drops/ML, like my last. I guess a drop is a drop!

Nitrites still off the charts despite cutting back to 50% ammonia 2 days ago. Prior remarks here lead me to believe that will just suddenly drop to 0, so guess we are in "wait-n-see" mode right now.

[Chrona]

Just a quick update. No plants purchased just yet. Water still looking a bit hazy since adding Flourite, but very near crystal clear. Lost my eyedropper for adding ammonia, so went to the drug store and bought another. This one had, what appeared to me, to be a larger opening than my last. However, turns out that it measured out exactly the same in terms of 30 drops/ML, like my last. I guess a drop is a drop!

Nitrites still off the charts despite cutting back to 50% ammonia 2 days ago. Prior remarks here lead me to believe that will just suddenly drop to 0, so guess we are in "wait-n-see" mode right now.

Looking good! Ammonia -> Nitrite bacteria take a bit longer to multiply.

[Owen Stubbs]

Looking good! Ammonia -> Nitrite bacteria take a bit longer to multiply.
I assume you mean Nitrite -> Nitrate? BTW - interesting change of icon there Chrona! :ezpi_wink1:

[Chrona]

I assume you mean Nitrite -> Nitrate? BTW - interesting change of icon there Chrona! :ezpi_wink1:

Er yeah, that's what I meant

;)

[Owen Stubbs]

5 days into the 50% ammonia, and there is no sign of a drop in nitrites. Still off the charts. Nitrates still moderate. Maybe I need to play a special type of music in the room for the nitrite eating bacteria to develop? LOL!

[Chrona]

5 days into the 50% ammonia, and there is no sign of a drop in nitrites. Still off the charts. Nitrates still moderate. Maybe I need to play a special type of music in the room for the nitrite eating bacteria to develop? LOL!

Barry White and lit candles will probably set them in the mood to reproduce.

[Owen Stubbs]

Barry White and lit candles will probably set them in the mood to reproduce.:hmm3grin2orange:

Hopefully, it is getting close. Nitrites still off the scale, but ammonia is undetectable less than an hour after adding 15 drops, which for me, was the 50% mark. Nitrates at approx 20ppm.

[Owen Stubbs]

Time for a recap. On March 1st, I filled the 10g tank. Also added ProperPH 7.0 because I didn't anticipate live plants. No fish, biowheel filter, plus UGF filter. Approx March 14th, discovered this site, started with the fishless cycle using ammonia. March 19th, Around the time I was hitting the nitrite spike, I removed the UGF, and mixed Flourite in with my gravel. Due to the unbelievable cloudiness of the flourite, I did about a 40% or so water change (figured this would also help remove some of the ProperPH. Never backed off on 100% ammonia until flourite was settled in for a few days. Call it March 21st, or 7 days ago that I started the 50% ammonia.

Nitrites remain extremely high, nearly off the scale. Ammonia is undetectable. Temp is 82 (until cycling is complete).

Now for the wierd. Yesterday I had Nitrates at 20ppm. Today, Nitrates are 5ppm!!! Also did a PH test for the first time in a long time - barely registering. Call it 6.0-6.1ppm. Ummmm.... :help:

[Chrona]

I don't recall, do you have hard or soft water?

See if you can get a second opinion on the nitrates (take it to the LFS the next time you are out) just in case. While you are there, see if they will squeeze out one of their ripe sponge filters into a ziploc bag and give the crud to you to put in the tank.

I would actually recommend doing a 50% water change (prior to adding ammonia for the day) to get rid of some of the excess nitrites, on the remote chance that uber-excessive nitrite levels are inhibiting bacterial growth. Other than that, I can't say. Some people just have bad water for growing bacteria it seems? :X

[Owen Stubbs]

Tested at LFS and my own kit - same kit! Same results. PH of tap water is around 7.2ppm. I'd like to know what caused the nose dive in the PH, and why my nitrates dropped from 20ppm to 5ppm.

[Chrona]

Tested at LFS and my own kit - same kit! Same results. PH of tap water is around 7.2ppm. I'd like to know what caused the nose dive in the PH, and why my nitrates dropped from 20ppm to 5ppm.

To be honest, I have no clue. It's just water, ammonia and flourite in the tank correct? Do you have soft water? Add 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda per 10 gallons and see if the pH returns to normal.

[jeffs99dime]

i decided to make this thread a sticky because it's really good. lots of great info here too! keep it up!!!

[Chrona]

Thanks Jeff!
















All above information ©Chrona, 2007. All rights reserved.

^_^

[Owen Stubbs]

@ jeffs99dime - not sure you need to make it sticky - we're doing a pretty good job of keeping it to the top with all this chatter! thumbs2:

@ Chrona - As I mentioned, tap water PH is around 7.2, but I do not have a water hardness tester. No water softener in the house though. Yes - water, ammonia, flourite. I did add some Biomax rings to the HOB bio-wheel filter to increase the surface area available to bacteria, but that's it. That addition was done at the same time as the flourite.

Unfortunately, I was not continuously testing PH, so I do not know when it took a dive. Is there a known correlation between PH drops and nitrates? I am even MORE concerned about the PH drop than the high nitrites at this point, only because plenty of people seem to experience an unusually long time frame between their nitrite spike, and subsequent reduction. I am concerned about adding baking soda. Something is causing it to dive, and it seems the CAUSE needs to be discovered, otherwise it might continue, and I find myself constantly bring the PH up even though my tap water is fairly ideal.

Second on my "concern" list is the drop in nitrates, especially since I would only expect those to INCREASE without a water change. Is it possible some factor is causing a PH drop, and that low PH is wiping out the nitrite consuming bacteria? Might explain the dropping nitrate levels, and steady nitrite levels, but still does not identify source of PH drop.

So far, this "fishless cycle" is not going anywhere near planned.

[Chrona]

@ jeffs99dime - not sure you need to make it sticky - we're doing a pretty good job of keeping it to the top with all this chatter! thumbs2:

@ Chrona - As I mentioned, tap water PH is around 7.2. Yes - water, ammonia, flourite. I did add some Biomax rings to the HOB bio-wheel filter to increase the surface area available to bacteria, but that's it. That addition was done at the same time as the flourite.

Unfortunately, I was not continuously testing PH, so I do not know when it took a dive. Is there a known correlation between PH drops and nitrates? I am even MORE concerned about the PH drop than the high nitrites at this point, only because plenty of people seem to experience an unusually long time frame between their nitrite spike, and subsequent reduction. I am concerned about adding baking soda. Something is causing it to dive, and it seems the CAUSE needs to be discovered, otherwise it might continue, and I find myself constantly bring the PH up even though my tap water is fairly ideal.

Second on my "concern" list is the drop in nitrates, especially since I would only expect those to INCREASE without a water change. Is it possible some factor is causing a PH drop, and that low PH is wiping out the nitrite consuming bacteria? Might explain the dropping nitrate levels, and steady nitrite levels, but still does not identify source of PH drop.

So far, this "fishless cycle" is not going anywhere near planned.

The nitrogen process is itself acidic, but really only mildly so. Thus, is it possible for a ton of biological activity to eventually strip the water of all of it's alkalinity (kH), which would result in a pH drop, but I would presume the kH would have had to have been fairly low to start with, as many people have ammonia cycled their tanks for several weeks without a pH drop. There are plenty of things that can inadvertently raise pH, but not much that lowers it, so this appears to be the likely choice. Baking soda raises kH by 4 degrees (about 150 ppm) for every teaspoon in 10g of water. Normally, periodic water changes would replenish the buffering ability of the water, and the fish also don't produce nearly as much ammonia as you are adding in now. Keep in mind hardness does not equate to kH, so having hard water doesn't neccesarily mean high kH (as in my case), but having soft water usually means low kH.

[Owen Stubbs]

1) what about the nitrate drop, and
2) would be best course of action be to add baking soda, or do a partial water change?
3) I have "Cycle" (the product). Wonder if I should inject a bit of that to see if it helps kick the nitrite eating bacteria into gear??

[Chrona]

1) what about the nitrate drop, and
2) would be best course of action be to add baking soda, or do a partial water change?
3) I have "Cycle" (the product). Wonder if I should inject a bit of that to see if it helps kick the nitrite eating bacteria into gear??

Well I would suggest a partial water change anyways to prevent the nitrite levels from going through the roof and possibly inhibiting bacteria (you don't need that much nitrites anyways) but I would still add like 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons just in case. It can't hurt anything.

You can try the Cycle, but by and large the only cycling product that have been proven to work is Biospira (which is rather expensive) so don't be surprised if nothing happens.

As for the nitrates, I haven't a clue. Possibly anerobic bacteria that converts nitrates to gaseous nitrogen is accumlating in the untouched substrate? I'm really reaching with that one. Poke around the substrate with a stick or something and see if you smell any sulfur.

[Owen Stubbs]

My nose is not tuned to sulpher, so I wouldn't know it if I smelled it. There is a slight odor, but it is more like an odor that would come from a humid environment - like a locker room.

Performed a 50% water change. Readings approximately 30-40 minutes following water change with filter running:

Prior to water change/Following water change
Temp: 82F/70F (continuously rising due to heater)
PH: 6.0-ish/6.5-6.6
Ammonia: none/none (unch)
Nitrite: >= 5.0ppm/>=5.0ppm (unch)
Nitrate: 5.0ppm/5.0ppm (unch)
Beer consumed: 12 oz/36oz:18:

Have NOT added ammonia, baking soda or "Cycle"... yet.

Input? Suggestions?

[Chrona]

My nose is not tuned to sulpher, so I wouldn't know it if I smelled it. There is a slight odor, but it is more like an odor that would come from a humid environment - like a locker room.

Performed a 50% water change. Readings approximately 30-40 minutes following water change with filter running:

Prior to water change/Following water change
Temp: 82F/70F (continuously rising due to heater)
PH: 6.0-ish/6.5-6.6
Ammonia: none/none (unch)
Nitrite: >= 5.0ppm/>=5.0ppm (unch)
Nitrate: 5.0ppm/5.0ppm (unch)
Beer consumed: 12 oz/36oz:18:

Have NOT added ammonia, baking soda or "Cycle"... yet.

Input? Suggestions?

Add ammonia + baking soda + cycle

Why is your temp fluctuating from 82 to 70 btw? o.O

Throw some of that beer my way ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

Sheesh - took you long enough to reply! LOL!

Beer was to be in transit to your locale, but got intercepted prior to shipping. Will speak with the union representative tomorrow, but not sure I can do anything about it!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

Temp was merely a result of the cold temp of tap water. Was not really relevant to my stats. Heater has already brought that temp back up to nearly what it was prior to water change.

PH obviously averaged out to what was in the tank, and what was coming out of my tap.

So, why the heck didn't nitrites or nitrates fall after a 50% water change???

Finally - what the heck caused the PH drop in the first place? I remain hessitant to artificially raise PH when some condition still exists which is dropping it into oblivion.

My normal ammonia addition comes in the morning. Adding it now would disrupt that schedule. I have tons of nitrites, which suggests plenty of ammonia eating bacteria, should I still add now? What I need is some Nitrite eating bacteria!!

[Owen Stubbs]

Just added 50% ammonia, cycle, and 1/2 tablespoon of BS, Each separated by 10 minute intervals, for whatever that was worth. If I can stay awake long enough, I will do some tests tonight. If not, will perform tests in the morning and report back here.

[Chrona]

Sheesh - took you long enough to reply! LOL!

Yeah I know, seriously right? Took me more than 5 minutes like usual :P

Beer was to be in transit to your locale, but got intercepted prior to shipping. Will speak with the union representative tomorrow, but not sure I can do anything about it!!! :hmm3grin2orange:

I want tracking numbers

Temp was merely a result of the cold temp of tap water. Was not really relevant to my stats. Heater has already brought that temp back up to nearly what it was prior to water change.

Ah I see, thought your heater was all screwy

PH obviously averaged out to what was in the tank, and what was coming out of my tap.

So, why the heck didn't nitrites or nitrates fall after a 50% water change???

Nitrites were off the charts, but you don't know how much off the charts. This simply means that you had more than twice the max reading of nitrites before the water change. Nitrates you can probably attribute to test kit accuracy. The levels will be cut by 1/2 regardless

Finally - what the heck caused the PH drop in the first place? I remain hessitant to artificially raise PH when some condition still exists which is dropping it into oblivion.

The nitrogen cycle makes the water go acidic. Normally with weekly water changes, somewhat hard water (or well buffered water), and a normal bioload this isn't a problem, but it sounds like you either have fairly low kH in your water, which coupled with the massive load you put on the system, resulted in the biological activity overwhelming the buffer. Note this will only happen in the future if you don't change the water for an extended period of time, as fish won't produce nearly that much waste. So the baking soda and if it doesn't work (and hold a constant pH over a few days), then we will look onto other causes. Make it 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons

My normal ammonia addition comes in the morning. Adding it now would disrupt that schedule. I have tons of nitrites, which suggests plenty of ammonia eating bacteria, should I still add now? What I need is some Nitrite eating bacteria!!

Yes, you still need to keep adding ammonia until your nitrite eating bacteria population is up to par, or else they will die off and you will need to start over again. 50% dosage though, and adding it tomorrow is fine


stupid message length

[jeffs99dime]

this thread is now unstuck. let me know when you want it stickied again.--jeff:thumb:

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks Jeff - more obvious when new posts arrive this way. Can make it sticky when the issue is finally resolved.

Chemistry update approx 10 hrs after adding baking soda, cycle, and ammonia:

PH: 7.0-7.2 (was 6.0 b4 water change, 6.5 after water change)
Nitrites: top of the scale, >=5.0
Nitrates: 10.0 (increased from 5.0)
Ammonia: 0

OK - so PH is better, for how long is anyone's guess. Nitrates increased, question is will they continue to rise. Nitrites not coming down. Time to get this chemically reduced, or do I continue the waiting game?

[Chrona]

Thanks Jeff - more obvious when new posts arrive this way. Can make it sticky when the issue is finally resolved.

Chemistry update approx 10 hrs after adding baking soda, cycle, and ammonia:

PH: 7.0-7.2 (was 6.0 b4 water change, 6.5 after water change)
Nitrites: top of the scale, >=5.0
Nitrates: 10.0 (increased from 5.0)
Ammonia: 0

OK - so PH is better, for how long is anyone's guess. Nitrates increased, question is will they continue to rise. Nitrites not coming down. Time to get this chemically reduced, or do I continue the waiting game?

Continue the waiting game. I'm almost certain the pH will stay steady now (how much did you end up adding?). And you don't know for sure what is happening with the nitrites, only that they are beyond the range of the test kit :)

[Owen Stubbs]

Continue the waiting game. I'm almost certain the pH will stay steady now (how much did you end up adding?). And you don't know for sure what is happening with the nitrites, only that they are beyond the range of the test kit :)

1/2 tablespoon of BS was added. This issue of extremely high nitrites has been posted here on several other threads, so apparantly, it is nothing new. I have seen someone in the same position ultimately use Seachem Prime ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) when their Nitrites failed to come down after a few weeks.

This all has me wondering..... when I first started this, people were suggesting that I only needed 5-6 drops of ammonia for my 10g tank to get to 5.0ppm, and that I would be cutting back to 2-3 drops after the nitrite spike. My particular dropper took 30 drops to get into the 4-5ppm range, and my 1/2 dose continues to be 15 drops. I also continued the 100% doseage for several days due to radically disturbing the substrate by mixing in Flourite right around the time I was getting the initial nitrite spike.

There is no doubt the ammonia eating bacteria exists - I cannot even detect ammonia <1 hour after adding the 15 drops. Just wonder if I created a HUGE nitrite producing colony that is somehow interfering with the nitrate producing type. Mere speculation on my part - I still do not really know what I am doing!

[Chrona]

1/2 tablespoon of BS was added. This issue of extremely high nitrites has been posted here on several other threads, so apparantly, it is nothing new. I have seen someone in the same position ultimately use Seachem Prime ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) when their Nitrites failed to come down after a few weeks.

This all has me wondering..... when I first started this, people were suggesting that I only needed 5-6 drops of ammonia for my 10g tank to get to 5.0ppm, and that I would be cutting back to 2-3 drops after the nitrite spike. My particular dropper took 30 drops to get into the 4-5ppm range, and my 1/2 dose continues to be 15 drops. I also continued the 100% doseage for several days due to radically disturbing the substrate by mixing in Flourite right around the time I was getting the initial nitrite spike.

There is no doubt the ammonia eating bacteria exists - I cannot even detect ammonia <1 hour after adding the 15 drops. Just wonder if I created a HUGE nitrite producing colony that is somehow interfering with the nitrate producing type. Mere speculation on my part - I still do not really know what I am doing!

The amount of ammonia required depends on the particular ammonia you pruchase, how fresh it is, the intial concentration, etc. Too many factors, which is why suggesting a certain number of drops is basically meaningless other than to give you a very rough idea of how much you should be adding (so you don't put in one drop or dump in the whole container) Marineland Biospira is the only cycling product I have used that has worked as states (and it was amazing....but damn expensive). Cycle did not work. I have not used Prime, but the vast majority of those cases when the cycling product appears to work is pure coincidence. By and large, they do absolutely zilch. I will look around, but I don't believe ammonia eating bacteria have any bearing on nitrite eating bacteria. In fact, evolutionary theory suggests that they would help each other, since they are always found together in nature. What I'm more concerned about is excess nitrites inhibiting growth, though I have only heard of such a thing with excess ammonia and that respective bacteria.

[Owen Stubbs]

I definitely do not have excess ammonia. Do plants consume nitrites? Maybe now is the time to add a few plants to see what impact, if any, they have. I could also do another water change.

[Chrona]

I definitely do not have excess ammonia. Do plants consume nitrites? Maybe now is the time to add a few plants to see what impact, if any, they have. I could also do another water change.

Yes, plants will uptake nitrites as well, though they will mostly eat up your ammonia. Plants do, however, come with a decent amount of bacteria on their surfaces so you can add a few and give it a shot. Don't leave the lights on for more than 8 hours at this stage though. Water change would be good (before adding ammonia), since you don't need nearly that much nitrite anyways and the results should be interesting.

[Owen Stubbs]

Did another 50% water change. No change in Nitrites - still off the scale. Trying Seachem Prime.

[Chrona]

lol, you went out and bought Prime? At this rate you're better off just getting the Biospira ^_^

[Owen Stubbs]

lol, you went out and bought Prime? At this rate you're better off just getting the Biospira ^_^
IF the LFS had BioSpira, I might have! Prime was 5 bucks, and it works as a chlorine remover and emergency nitrite/nitrate reducer, so I figured it was not a total loss.

So... ready for the latest chemistry update?

No change! The Documentation at Seachem suggests that the Nitrite has been detoxified - something I might personally require after I start drinking heavily based upon this experience.

So, I have top of the charts nitrite following 2 back to back 50% water changes. This is insane! Why to I get the feeling that I should drain the tank, boil the gravel and Flourite, and start over with zebra danios? My son has been patiently waiting a month for me to finish this "expedited" method of cycling.

[Chrona]

IF the LFS had BioSpira, I might have! Prime was 5 bucks, and it works as a chlorine remover and emergency nitrite/nitrate reducer, so I figured it was not a total loss.

So... ready for the latest chemistry update?

No change! The Documentation at Seachem suggests that the Nitrite has been detoxified - something I might personally require after I start drinking heavily based upon this experience.

So, I have top of the charts nitrite following 2 back to back 50% water changes. This is insane! Why to I get the feeling that I should drain the tank, boil the gravel and Flourite, and start over with zebra danios? My son has been patiently waiting a month for me to finish this "expedited" method of cycling.

Please don't boil it lol, if you want fish now, just do water changes (or one large water change) until nitrites get down to like 1-2 ppm, add 1 tablespoon of aquarium salt, and add the fish. Note you won't be able to get plants until you get the salt out, as most plants do not tolerate salt well (they'll grow, but very poorly) But I do not think this is an issue with the fishless cycling, as you may experience even more trouble using fish cycling, and any ensuing spikes will actually kill fish instead of coloring up your test kit. In the end, it is up to you. I've tried to help as much as possible, but your tap water's inability to culture bacteria is proving to be a formidable foe :P

You are right though, what should have been a simple venture has probably turned into a headache on your end. Fishless cycling really is a very good way to go, working a good 95% of the time, but there are rare occasions when stuff just takes a long time to grow out. Before you get fish however, I would suggest you give it once last shot and as for a squeeze of water from your LFS's ripe sponge filters (put it in a ziploc bag) and dump it in the water. Again, totally up to you. I know the feeling when you are technically doing everything right, but things are going wrong regardless.

Prime does remove nitrite and nitrate, but not a lot (just got a bottle the other day, forget the exact numbers), so it probably didn't even chip at the levels you have in the tank.

[Owen Stubbs]

Hey Chrona - don't get me wrong. I sincerely appreciate all the help you have provided. I am neither giving up on you, nor this little experiment of "ours" (that's right - you now have ownership, so you need to see it through till the end!!! :hmm3grin2orange: )

Not knowing much about this, I hardly doubt my tapwater is to blame. Clearly there is evidence of bacteria to eat the ammonia, otherwise how could I have a zero reading one hour after adding enough to kill all the fish in a tank? My line of thinking is that that colony is HUGE. Maybe it was a mistake to keep the doseage at 100% after I reached the nitrite spike.. maybe that would have been a good opportunity to switch to 50% despite all the rukus I created in the gravel. Mere speculation - does us no good here.

Here is what I can tell you. I did a good 80% water change about 45 minutes ago, then added my 50% ammonia. Didn't want to do ammonia, but figure I have to feed at least some of the bacteria in there. Prior to the water change, I took a nitrite reading on the tap water. Zero. Immediately following the water change, I took a reading on the tank. substantially reduced. The question now is "will it rise", and if so, "by how much"?

I also went to the LFS and picked up some plants. LFS had poor lighting over the tank I got them from so I figured they would be a decent start. I do not care if they live or not, but figured they might a) provide good bacteria and b) survive anyway!!! Looking at these things, looks like I got some java fern, wysteria, definitely some onions, possibly a pennywort, and something I have yet to identify!! Plants are still in a bag, but they will at least be floating by night's end.

[Chrona]

Hey Chrona - don't get me wrong. I sincerely appreciate all the help you have provided. I am neither giving up on you, nor this little experiment of "ours" (that's right - you now have ownership, so you need to see it through till the end!!! :hmm3grin2orange: )

Not knowing much about this, I hardly doubt my tapwater is to blame. Clearly there is evidence of bacteria to eat the ammonia, otherwise how could I have a zero reading one hour after adding enough to kill all the fish in a tank? My line of thinking is that that colony is HUGE. Maybe it was a mistake to keep the doseage at 100% after I reached the nitrite spike.. maybe that would have been a good opportunity to switch to 50% despite all the rukus I created in the gravel. Mere speculation - does us no good here.

Here is what I can tell you. I did a good 80% water change about 45 minutes ago, then added my 50% ammonia. Didn't want to do ammonia, but figure I have to feed at least some of the bacteria in there. Prior to the water change, I took a nitrite reading on the tap water. Zero. Immediately following the water change, I took a reading on the tank. substantially reduced. The question now is "will it rise", and if so, "by how much"?

I also went to the LFS and picked up some plants. LFS had poor lighting over the tank I got them from so I figured they would be a decent start. I do not care if they live or not, but figured they might a) provide good bacteria and b) survive anyway!!! Looking at these things, looks like I got some java fern, wysteria, definitely some onions, possibly a pennywort, and something I have yet to identify!! Plants are still in a bag, but they will at least be floating by night's end.

The java fern and pennywort will do fine. Don't have much experience with onions so I can't say. Wisteria will survive, but it's gonna look kinda ugly under low light ^_^ (Heck, I think it looks ugly under high light - much like a random salad of leaves) The plants will survive just fine until your tank is cycled, I was referring to if you added salt to reduce nitrite poisoning for any fish you got, which plants do not like :)

That's good news though, that nitrites are at measurable levels now. Continue adding 1/2 dose of ammonia and the bacteria on the plants will do the rest in a few days (hopefully) lol.

[Owen Stubbs]

I'll get your input on anchoring these things soon. Several have the metal rings. Obviously, removing those is required, but will require some like of anchoring to keep them from floating. Some, like the java ferns, will not want to be buried.

Nitrites about an hours or so after the massive water change AND 50% ammonia were around 1.0ppm. Will let is sit overnight and test again. If this seems to be working, should I be expecting another water change to continue the decrease, or should I be allowing some ppm of nitrite to keep the nitrite =>nitrate portion of the cycle to continue?

[Chrona]

I'll get your input on anchoring these things soon. Several have the metal rings. Obviously, removing those is required, but will require some like of anchoring to keep them from floating. Some, like the java ferns, will not want to be buried.

Nitrites about an hours or so after the massive water change AND 50% ammonia were around 1.0ppm. Will let is sit overnight and test again. If this seems to be working, should I be expecting another water change to continue the decrease, or should I be allowing some ppm of nitrite to keep the nitrite =>nitrate portion of the cycle to continue?

Seems to be working. Not sure of the exact ratio for ammonia to nitrite conversion (should technically be 1:1?) but I would say you have some nitrite eating bacteria now. As long as you are adding ammonia and ammonia levels are 0, you will have a constant flow of nitrites.

You need to remove the metal rings on those stem plants and cut off the lower 1/4 inch, as well as any damaged stems or they will rot. The metal rings at the LFS are almost always on way too tight so that they don't fall off, but this will cause the stems to rot after a while. Java fern should be anchored with cotton thread (or fishing line but you need to remove it since it doesn't eventually rot away like cotton) and tie the roots to a rock or some driftwood. Java fern rots if put in the substrate and the roots and rhizome must be exposed to fresh water and some amount of light at all times. Java fern is primarily a leaf feeder, so it doesn't matter much where you put it. Some people just let java fern float around and it eventually attaches to something.

If you have the time, wisteria stems should be planted individually about 1/2 inch away from each other. It'll be hard to get it to stay in the flourite until it grows some roots, so you can use a couple of rocks to anchor it for the time being.

Pennywort is small, so just plant them (seperately if possible or in clumps)

Onions - uh, well I have no clue. I think you are supposed to leave half the bulb exposed, but someone else should have a better answer, since I've never had onions.

[Chrona]

AHA! I found this article while looking for something else

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Scroll down to the part about mass nitrite with no nitrate generation - micronutrients section. Seems like you may need some phosphates. This is certainly a revelation!

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks for the link Chrona. Great - another product. And I need about 2-1/2 DROPS of it. Maybe I'll just take my eyedropper to the LFS and suck up a few drops!!

This issue remains a mystery. After my 50%/50%/80% water changes, the nitrite was reading maybe 1.0ppm. Approximately 15 hrs after the final 80% water change, nitrite levels are off the charts again.

[Chrona]

Thanks for the link Chrona. Great - another product. And I need about 2-1/2 DROPS of it. Maybe I'll just take my eyedropper to the LFS and suck up a few drops!!

This issue remains a mystery. After my 50%/50%/80% water changes, the nitrite was reading maybe 1.0ppm. Approximately 15 hrs after the final 80% water change, nitrite levels are off the charts again.

Yeah, the added ammonia will do that. As for the phosphates, you can just grind up some fish flakes and throw them in there. (try to break it down as best you can) Or if you have any pH down, that contains phosphuric acid. Or a combination of both.

I guess we both learned something ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

Before I do anything about phosphates, let's look at the plants in general.

If I followed the Seachem recommended dosing, I would be dumping every one of their products in the tank every day of the week.

So, assuming that is for a heavily planted, high light tank, what products should I be considering right now, and it it possible that those products would contain sufficient phosphates? I had presumed Flourish, and Excel, but should I be considering their NPK products right now?

[Chrona]

Before I do anything about phosphates, let's look at the plants in general.

If I followed the Seachem recommended dosing, I would be dumping every one of their products in the tank every day of the week.

So, assuming that is for a heavily planted, high light tank, what products should I be considering right now, and it it possible that those products would contain sufficient phosphates? I had presumed Flourish, and Excel, but should I be considering their NPK products right now?

If you want to do heavily planted, high light, you will need CO2 injection, Flourish, Excel (optional, won't really help much with plant growth once you have Co2 running but does do a good job of killing algae), and NPK. Now, since it's only a 10g tank, you COULD use Seachem NPK products, but it's pretty darn expensive considering they are just liquid versions of basic chemicals. Your best bet would be to buy 2 lbs of KNO3, 1 lb of KH2PO4, and 1 lb of K2SO4 for the NPK from the site below, as it will last you for more than a year (probably multiple years, have not done calculations - plus the stuff doesn't ever break down) for about 20 bucks shipped. This cost is less than a full set of Seachem NPK products and will last many times longer. Plus it's easier to figure out dosing because you know exactly how much of a certain chemical you are putting in. Seachem dosages are based on low-medium light conditions. Nearly everyone with high light/high nutrient tanks uses dry ferts for this exact reason, since nutrients levels are much easier to control this way.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[Owen Stubbs]

Based upon your recommendations, I was not going for higher lighting right now. 15 watts is all I have on the 10g. Does that change your recommendation at all and does this address the possible phosphate issue, assuming I even have a phosphate issue?

[Chrona]

Based upon your recommendations, I was not going for higher lighting right now. 15 watts is all I have on the 10g. Does that change your recommendation at all and does this address the possible phosphate issue, assuming I even have a phosphate issue?

In a low light planted tank, fish waste provides enough phosphates for plants. I was just mentioning that you should add phosphates now because apparently the nitrite eating bacteria need it. Since you are only adding pure ammonia at the moment, the bacteria may have eaten up all the phosphates in the tap water. In normal operation, however, water changes and fish waste will provide enough phosphates and nitrates under lower light.

[Chrona]

My recommendation for keeping it low light still stands btw. A high light/high nutrient tank is causing me some major headaches, although plant growth is fairly spectacular now. My swords have grown over an inch in the past few days after I cranked up CO2 to 1 bubble per second, but I'm still fighting vestiges of brown algae, along with the new green algae that coming in, and this mysterious black algae that is very hard to remove.

[Owen Stubbs]

I do not know if LFS has the Fritz product mentioned in that article, but they do have Seachem Phosphorus. Wonder if that would do the trick?

So, back to the plants. 1.5 wpg, no co2.... Flourish and Excel only? Also, I'm going to try to get some photos of these plants for identification. Meanwhile, is there a decent online guide to planting (ie stem plants, potted, rooted, etc)?

[Chrona]

I do not know if LFS has the Fritz product mentioned in that article, but they do have Seachem Phosphorus. Wonder if that would do the trick?

So, back to the plants. 1.5 wpg, no co2.... Flourish and Excel only?

Yep, Flourish and Excel only. I would just add some ground up fish flakes, since it seems kind of silly to buy a bottle just to add a few drops, especially considering we aren't even sure if this is the issue. It will work though, since Seachem P is just potassium phosphate.

[Chrona]

Or shoot me a pm and I will send you some powdered potassium phosphate.

[Owen Stubbs]

Thanks for the offer - I need to get this thing moving forward ASAP, so even if that means going to the LFS, it is still faster.

I edited my last message, but you replied before I could make the change! This was the edit: Also, I'm going to try to get some photos of these plants for identification. Meanwhile, is there a decent online guide to planting (ie stem plants, potted, rooted, etc)?

[Chrona]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Third post, all the way down ^_^

And do you mean you need photos so you know what to get? or..?

[Owen Stubbs]

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

Third post, all the way down ^_^

Thanks - I'll read.

And do you mean you need photos so you know what to get? or..?I meant I need to find my camera and take some photos, but prior to doing that, I will check a couple of online plant databases.

[Owen Stubbs]

OK - added some fish food for phosphates. Seems wierd though - most everything I have ever seen relative for phosphates is based on REMOVING it from the aquarium.

[Chrona]

OK - added some fish food for phosphates. Seems wierd though - most everything I have ever seen relative for phosphates is based on REMOVING it from the aquarium.

An inbalance of phosphates with nitrates causes algae in a non planted aquarium. But in your case, you don't have the lights up, and the amount of phosphates added will be minimal, so it doesn't really matter. In planted tanks, with a correct balance of CO2, light, and nutrients, the plants easily outcompete the algae for phosphates

[Owen Stubbs]

About 36 hours ago, since I have tried most everything else, I also added a double dose of "Cycle". My nitrates went from 5ppm to slightly over 20ppm. Could also be some bacteria from the plants, could be the dose of fish food yesterday, but whatever it is from , it looks like there is some activity. Nitrites still sky high, but maybe the increasing nitrate is a good sign.

[Chrona]

Good news indeed :19:

[Owen Stubbs]

Well, the high nitrates did not last long. Back down to around 5ppm. However, I have a bunch of plants floating in this tank right now, so it is impossible to know if the plants are sucking up the nitrates, or my higher reading yesterday was only from the "Cycle" product, and the tank still cannot sustain nitrate producing bacteria.

Speaking of plants, I read Chrona's post on plants. Now I have a question on stem plants. I picked up 2 bunches of something or other! Came from a department store similar to Walmart (Meijer). They didn't know what it was either, and all the plants in this one tank were a fixed price. Anyway, it has the metal band. I removed the band, removed little bits of yellow or brown leaves, and now want to plant it. Better to try and plant them individually, or should I put the metal ring back on - loosely - and plant it as one group? Looks like it would be difficult (at best) to plant these things one at a time.

Also, is it possible to plant a stem plant too deep, as long as no leaves are buried?

[Owen Stubbs]

Another question - I picked up some Flourish and Excel. The Flourish is dark brown, like dirt mud, and stinks. Is this normal?

[Chrona]

Another question - I picked up some Flourish and Excel. The Flourish is dark brown, like dirt mud, and stinks. Is this normal?

Yes indeedy ;) Try to keep it refrigerated if possible.

The Excel doesn't smell much better imo....lol.

[cocoa_pleco]

MAN, 170 posts on this thread. NEW RECORD!

[Chrona]

Well, the high nitrates did not last long. Back down to around 5ppm. However, I have a bunch of plants floating in this tank right now, so it is impossible to know if the plants are sucking up the nitrates, or my higher reading yesterday was only from the "Cycle" product, and the tank still cannot sustain nitrate producing bacteria.

Speaking of plants, I read Chrona's post on plants. Now I have a question on stem plants. I picked up 2 bunches of something or other! Came from a department store similar to Walmart (Meijer). They didn't know what it was either, and all the plants in this one tank were a fixed price. Anyway, it has the metal band. I removed the band, removed little bits of yellow or brown leaves, and now want to plant it. Better to try and plant them individually, or should I put the metal ring back on - loosely - and plant it as one group? Looks like it would be difficult (at best) to plant these things one at a time.

Also, is it possible to plant a stem plant too deep, as long as no leaves are buried?

Well, your substrate is only like 2 inches deep, so no, it's fine. Planting them individually is best in a lower light tank, because a dense bunch won't get enough light and will start to decay. When/if you get more light, planting them in groups of 2-3 makes for a better effect. The stems will probably keep popping out and annoy you to no end for a while, but once the roots grow out, it's really sturdy. You don't have any rowdy fish in there anyways, so it shouldn't really be a problem. Tweezers help, but don't squeeze too hard. What I usually do is get a whole row of stems and hold them between my thumb and my palm. I clear out a little area so I can see glass, hold all the plants in position, and push the substrate back, packing it down a little. Every once in a while a stray plant gets out, which is where the tweezers come in handy.

[Owen Stubbs]

MAN, 170 posts on this thread. NEW RECORD!And we ain't even got fish in this tank yet!!:hmm3grin2orange:

Thanks for the planting tip. Some of this stuff is a bear to get down in the substrate. Then I have a few bulb types (onion) which don't want to be completely buried, then annubias, which cannot have their own requirements, then stems! Oh yeah - and a full tank of water. I should have drained off a good portion of the water before I started! I probably could have gone even deeper than I did with some of the stems. Had to replant many of the same ones over and over since I kept pulling them up.

OK - so the Flourish stinks. Guess that is true for any good fertilizer, right (ever been on a farm)!! LOL!

So back to the nitrite. Just how long do I wait before seeking some other solution to this nitrite that simply will not come down? Think I should back off on the ammonia a bit? My 50% dose is 15 drops, but now I also have plants in there.

[Chrona]

And we ain't even got fish in this tank yet!!:hmm3grin2orange:

Thanks for the planting tip. Some of this stuff is a bear to get down in the substrate. Then I have a few bulb types (onion) which don't want to be completely buried, then annubias, which cannot have their own requirements, then stems! Oh yeah - and a full tank of water. I should have drained off a good portion of the water before I started! I probably could have gone even deeper than I did with some of the stems. Had to replant many of the same ones over and over since I kept pulling them up.

OK - so the Flourish stinks. Guess that is true for any good fertilizer, right (ever been on a farm)!! LOL!

So back to the nitrite. Just how long do I wait before seeking some other solution to this nitrite that simply will not come down? Think I should back off on the ammonia a bit? My 50% dose is 15 drops, but now I also have plants in there.

Just keep dosage the same. The plant intake of ammonium will naturally decrease the amount of ammonia that you are adding into the tank. That being said, with all the new bacteria on the plants, your cycling should go a bit faster. Then again, it's not a guarentee, as Mr. Murphy of Murphy's Law has managed to brain us with a monkey wrench every step of the way. ;)

[cocoa_pleco]

this threads getting major mileage

[Owen Stubbs]

Well - I still cannot get the stem plants to stay in. I am trying to plant them about 3/4 inch apart or so, and the process is just to disruptive to something I have already planted. Get 1 in, and 2 pop out. Get those back in, and something else gets yanked out. I have probably planted every single one over a dozen times, and still cannot get all of them to stay put!!!:confused:

[Chrona]

lol. Alright, get some cotton string and loosely wrap it just above a node on each stem(tie it loosely). That should help it stay put. The cotton string will rot away in a few weeks, but by then the roots will be established.

[Owen Stubbs]

lol. Alright, get some cotton string and loosely wrap it just above a node on each stem(tie it loosely). That should help it stay put. The cotton string will rot away in a few weeks, but by then the roots will be established.
It is not just that.... I'll get one reasonably anchored, then moving my hand around, I'll snag the top of the plant and yank it out. I think I got them reasonably secure for now without string. I'll try the string if this they do not hold.

I would like to leave everything alone for now. Did a good job of stirring up the tank today, so even though everything is not as I might prefer it, it is good enough for now.

Nitrates went back up - like WAY up (30-40ppm). I assume it is all that stirring around I did of the substrate. Who knows, might be a good sign.

[Chrona]

It is not just that.... I'll get one reasonably anchored, then moving my hand around, I'll snag the top of the plant and yank it out. I think I got them reasonably secure for now without string. I'll try the string if this they do not hold.

I would like to leave everything alone for now. Did a good job of stirring up the tank today, so even though everything is not as I might prefer it, it is good enough for now.

Nitrates went back up - like WAY up (30-40ppm). I assume it is all that stirring around I did of the substrate. Who knows, might be a good sign.

Ah, I had that same problem (and still kinda do). Practice and some nice long tweezers help a lot.

[Owen Stubbs]

I don't know about tweezers, but if this tank does not start behaving itself soon, I'm gonna stick a weed wacker into the thing and puree the entire contents! :hmm3grin2orange:

[Chrona]

I don't know about tweezers, but if this tank does not start behaving itself soon, I'm gonna stick a weed wacker into the thing and puree the entire contents! :hmm3grin2orange:

I'm surprised your child hasn't threatened to revolt yet, after staring at the fish tank for a few weeks ;)

[Owen Stubbs]

I'm surprised your child hasn't threatened to revolt yet, after staring at the fish tank for a few weeks ;)

You want to hear something really funny - the tank is in his bedroom. He pulls up a little chair, sometimes with a visiting friend, and they stare at the tank as if it is a TV. It is pretty funny to see. Now if we just had some fish, and maybe a few shrimp, he would probably sit there all day! I probably will too! :19:

[cocoa_pleco]

NEW RECORD! 182 posts, 3000 views! time for a oilchange! :hmm3grin2orange:

[Owen Stubbs]

NEW RECORD! 182 posts, 3000 views! time for a oilchange! :hmm3grin2orange:

Might be a record, but hey - my post count is only about 100/month - mostly this thread. Unlike SOME people who have 500-800 posts/month!:hmm3grin2orange:

Tank update: After clouding up the water pretty good attempting to discover the fine art of planting (likely failing miserable), today the water is back to crystal clear.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: sky high
Nitrate: 30-40ppm
PH: 7.2
Temp 81F

So, maybe the continued high nitrate is a good thing and I will soon see this ever-promised nitrite crash.

Went to the LFS to do some window-shopping with my son. He liked the glowlight danios (or were they tetras....) They were a reddish/pinkish color. Anyone with experience?

[cocoa_pleco]

glowlight tetras with the orange stripe. I have 3. Theyre fun to watch. bloodfins are fun too. They chase eachother around. I have 4 of them.

[Owen Stubbs]

Hmmm.... these things looked like longfin danios, but were pink in color. If I ever finish this cycling, I might actually be able to get some, and take a photo!

[Owen Stubbs]

So, any thoughts on these pink fish I saw?

BTW - chemistry has really not changed dramatically. I saw a drop in Nitrates today to around 5ppm. I'm giving this a few more days before I consider drastic measures. I think I have some M-80's leftover from the 4th last year!!! LOL!!!

[Owen Stubbs]

OK - so you guys are all bored with the lack of progress here so far, and I am trying to find a solution to my other problems, and will post here as soon as I have direction on that, but let me ask something else...

Planted some plants 4 days ago. A reminder - 10 gal tank, 15 watt fluorescent hood. Lower light plants.

Dosed with Flourish on planting day, intending for 1x/week, plus Excel, which has occurred daily since planting. How long should light be on? Been running roughly 12 hrs/day since planting. Is this correct?

[Chrona]

OK - so you guys are all bored with the lack of progress here so far, and I am trying to find a solution to my other problems, and will post here as soon as I have direction on that, but let me ask something else...

Planted some plants 4 days ago. A reminder - 10 gal tank, 15 watt fluorescent hood. Lower light plants.

Dosed with Flourish on planting day, intending for 1x/week, plus Excel, which has occurred daily since planting. How long should light be on? Been running roughly 12 hrs/day since planting. Is this correct?

10 hours is better. Plant photoperiod is only like 8 hours, so figure an hour or so for them to get photosynthesis kicking.

[Owen Stubbs]

10 hours is better. Plant photoperiod is only like 8 hours, so figure an hour or so for them to get photosynthesis kicking.

Does that mean 12 hours is a waste, or 12 hours is bad, and if so, why?

[cocoa_pleco]

do you have fish in the tank yet? lol

[Owen Stubbs]

do you have fish in the tank yet? lol
My kids have this little "nemo" replica that I think they got at McD's in a happy meal. Maybe I should throw that in!! :hmm3grin2orange:

[Chrona]

Does that mean 12 hours is a waste, or 12 hours is bad, and if so, why?

Past 12 hours, you are feeding algae, since plants aren't able to do any more photosynthesis without first converting some of the stuff (ATP I think? lol high school biology) through respiration, which is only done in the dark :)

10-12 is a good period for lower light though, as it compensates to a certain degree for the low light, since the plants don't recieve as much energy per hour during that period. Higher light intensities usually mean less duration. Ie, you would only want to run 5 watts per gallon for like 7-8 hours a day.

It's actually very easy to tell when my plants are all done for the day. My wisteria leaves raise straight up at the top of the bunch after about 8-9 hours of light.

[Owen Stubbs]

I do not have algae yet... back this thing down to 10 hrs light max? Like I said, current max is around 12 hrs. This is based on when my son is getting ready for school until when he is getting ready for sleep.

[Chrona]

I do not have algae yet... back this thing down to 10 hrs light max? Like I said, current max is around 12 hrs. This is based on when my son is getting ready for school until when he is getting ready for sleep.

10-12 hours is fine. I recently bought a lamp timer for a few bucks so it goes on and off without me having to worry about it

[cocoa_pleco]

man, i would have gone crazy without fish in that tank by now:ezpi_wink1:

[Chrona]

man, i would have gone crazy without fish in that tank by now:ezpi_wink1:

Yeah I commend Owen (and his kids) for their patience. I probably would have just said "Screw it" a while back...lol

[Owen Stubbs]

man, i would have gone crazy without fish in that tank by now:ezpi_wink1:What makes you sure I have not already done so myself? lol!!! I feel we are nearly there with the help of you guys! Hopefully, this is not just MY learning experience, but one which will benefit others.

Meanwhile, me, and my body guard Guido, have booked flights to the East Coast to visit a certain college student - just in case things do not work out as planned! :hmm3grin2orange:

[Chrona]

What makes you sure I have not already done so myself? lol!!! I feel we are nearly there with the help of you guys! Hopefully, this is not just MY learning experience, but one which will benefit others.

Meanwhile, me, and my body guard Guido, have booked flights to the East Coast to visit a certain college student - just in case things do not work out as planned! :hmm3grin2orange:

I'm not worried, I have connections to the Chinese Triad.... ;)

[cocoa_pleco]

does the chinese triad have Veeeeerrryyy veeeerrryyy strong bamboo?

[Owen Stubbs]

I'm not worried, I have connections to the Chinese Triad.... ;)

They are not typically as large as your average south side Chicago "boys"! thumbs2:

Guys - we're gonna fix this thing! I know it. And in the process, we will all learn something from the experience! Tomorrow, I will take a few more steps, which might take a few days to show results, but we will keep moving forward. Might be a rough weekend with Easter and all, but I will keep posting my results here, and encourage everyone, including those just lurking on this thread, to post any input they might have!!!

[Owen Stubbs]

Ya know - something I have revisited on this thread a few times is the actual amount of ammonia needed to reach roughly 5ppm. More importantly, is what is the appropriate timeframe to reach this level? The sticky thread here on fishless cycling speaks in terms of checking the level in intervals measuring minutes, perhaps 30.... so you are literally achieving this this 5ppm in what could be as little as an hour or 2.

I've read other sources that speak of this in terms of a day, or even 2. I also see plenty of examples where the amount of ammonia it takes often comes very close to 1 drop per gallon.

When I did my initial ammonia dose, I checked it roughly every 30 minutes. It took me nearly 30 drops of ammonia to test around 4-5 ppm. I have wondered, and continue to wonder, if this was just too high - ultimately resulting in fantastically high nitrites.

Taking my 30 drops as a golden rule, my 50% formula was 15 drops.

I think the bacteria to process my initial 30, followed by 15 drops, developed just fine, as evidenced by a zero test reading of ammonia within an hour or 2 of adding it. But I think it is possible that the nitrite -> nitrate bacteria simply could not keep pace with a doseage that FAR exceeds any bioload I might introduce from fish.

So here is the plan currently in action. Last night, I dosed only 10 drops instead of the usual 15. This morning, I did six 20% water changes, roughly 1 hour apart. I thought this was better than one single, huge change. Following the last water change, I was testing nitrites at 0.5ppm. I don't want to take ALL the nitrites away, I still want to feed that bacteria and see if it can get me to zero on its own with continued ammonia dosing. If not, I will use water changes to bring it down further.

I then backed the ammonia down to 5 drops, which might still be a drop or 2 more than what I see others using in 10 gal cycles.

The real mystery here is the concentration of the ammonia I am using. The bottle is not marked, and it seems that retail products fall between 4%-10%.

So, that's my update, laced with opinion and speculation. Any input, good or bad?

[Chrona]

When you first add ammonia, there is little to no bacteria to eat it up while you are adding it, so the amount you find you need is a good figure, regardless of how long it takes (within reason). Later on, waiting half an hour would not work because the bacteria would probably be able to eat up most of the ammonia by then.

In the future, with no fish in the tank, just do one large water change. 0.80 ^ 6 is more or less the same as a 75% water change. You don't have any fish, so you don't need to worry about changing water parameters.

5 drops should be ok, but I wouldn't put more than a few fish in after it cycles, because we really have no idea how much 5 drops represents in terms of bioload.

Keep up the dream of having a cycled tank :thumb:

[Owen Stubbs]

Part of the reason I performed smaller water changes was to see how many it would take before I began to see a noticeable drop on my nitrites. It was not until the 4th water change that my nitrites started coming down off the maximum reading of my tester.

[Chrona]

Part of the reason I performed smaller water changes was to see how many it would take before I began to see a noticeable drop on my nitrites. It was not until the 4th water change that my nitrites started coming down off the maximum reading of my tester.

What % water change?

[Owen Stubbs]

What % water change?
I was pulling out roughly 3 gallons at a time. Like I said, took 4 of those before nitrites were even measureable again. 24 hours after all these water changes, and ammonia reduction to 1/3 my original 50% dose, I am at 0.5ppm nitrite, just under 10ppm nitrate, no ammonia. I also jacked my heater up to max, which only gets me to around 82F, and stuck an airstone back in the tank temporarily.

[Chrona]

I was pulling out roughly 3 gallons at a time. Like I said, took 4 of those before nitrites were even measureable again. 24 hours after all these water changes, and ammonia reduction to 1/3 my original 50% dose, I am at 0.5ppm nitrite, just under 10ppm nitrate, no ammonia. I also jacked my heater up to max, which only gets me to around 82F, and stuck an airstone back in the tank temporarily.

Sounds good. I may add a little more than 1/3 of 50% though. I thought you meant 1/3 of the original dose. Or you can just continue with 1/3 of 50% and only add 1-3 fish initially, not the full tankload.

[Owen Stubbs]

Original dose was 30 drops. 50% was 15. One night backed off to 5 drops (1/3 of 50%), but brought that back up to 7 drops, being just shy of 1/2 original 50%. Don't know why, but this is just feeling right at the moment given all the crap I have been through just far. Tomorrow (today given the time) is Easter. Perhaps I will throw an easter egg in there for good luck!! (just kidding).

I really thing the ammonia was OD'd before. Either by doseage, or my prolonged use at 100% due to raking up the gravel for a few days when I added Flourite. Regardless, my objective now is to finish the cycle and get something - anything - into this darn tank!!!

Anyway, you all have a very happy Easter weekend! I am not that politically correct, so I am not sure how to adjust that statement for anyone who does not observe the Easter holiday, but hope you understand my point of having a good weekend.

[Owen Stubbs]

There is one huge wildcard in this equation - that being the % of ammonia in the solution I am using. So I really cannot tell what might be a "reasonable" amount of ammonia to be adding. Nor can I find any reference to drops/gallon that people are using for the "enough to get to >5ppm then cut back to 50%".

I was adding approximately 1ml of whatever dilution I have for my >5ppm. Only took 2-3 days to see the bacteria develop to turn that daily addition of ammonia into nitrites. And as expected, it took much longer to see the bacteria develop that turn nitrites into nitrates.

However, even after several weeks, and plants, and climbing nitrates, nothing was bringing down the nitrites except water changes.

As mentioned in an earlier post of mine, I saw other internet posts that spoke of achieving the 100% mark with anywhere between 5-6 drops/10 gallons, upto 1 drop per gallon, then cutting back to 2-3 drops or so for the "50%" mark. Again, very dependent on the ammonia concentration.

My 100% was 30 drops. My 50% was 15. 2 weeks (more or less) later, sky high nitrites showing no drop at all. Reducing to 10 drops seemed to help, but not enough. A large water change dropped nitrites noticeably, but 5 drops held the nitrites to the post water change level, varying between 0.5-1.0ppm

Reduced ammonia to 3 drops. Guess what. Nitrites dropped overnight to barely detectable. Definitely less than 0.25ppm, but still readable. It would appear that the bacteria is now able to overcome all newly converted nitrites, plus take a small bite out of what little was still there. Am going to go for 3 drops again today, and test tomorrow.

I think the bottom line here is that there is a tremendous ambiguity behind X amount of ammonia for >5ppm, followed by a 50% reduction unless that formula starts to provide some kind of typical quantities in drops/gallon for certain tank scenarios (planted, not planted, filter type, substrate type, etc). I don't mean cover every scenario, but sure would be nice to have some kind of direction on whether 3 drops of store bought ammonia seems right, or ridiculously low. I have a hard time imagining a half dozen small fish producing that amount of ammonia though in a single day.

[Chrona]

Well, assuming ammonia to nitrite conversion is approx 1:1 (It should be since both only has 1 nitrogen atom), 3 drops is .5ppm ammonia, and there is a certain level of inaccuracy in nitrite/ammonia test kits, so your nitrites are probably just low because there was only that much ammonia to eat up. Nitrite eating bacteria population grows exponentially, so it can easily devour 5-10ppm of nitrites with no problems a few days after it can eat up 0.25ppm. When I said high nitrites inhibiting bacteria population growth, that was nothing more than a guess, because I know excess ammonia affects ammonia eating bacteria growth. And excess in this case means an absolutely ludicrous amount of ammonia/nitrites.

3 drops per 10g will cycle your tank, but I don't think it represents much of a bioload. Again, I'm not sure, so you can certainly keep giving it a try. I mean, it's not like the last method was doing anything :rolleyes:

[Owen Stubbs]

Nitrite eating bacteria population grows exponentially, so it can easily devour 5-10ppm of nitrites with no problems a few days after it can eat up 0.25ppm.
I didn't experience anything like that. Took only a few days for the bacteria to develop to completely neutralize ammonia, but nitrites were never coming down, even after weeks. This entire process remains baffling. Nothing else seemingly wrong, yet unable to process nitrites to nitrates with the larger ammonia doseage.

The other issue is any sort of ppm calculation. At best, the calculation of 0.5ppm is really only the quantity of total liquid I added, which is of unknown concentration. The true ammonia ppm is unknown as it is converted so quickly to nitrites, I cannot really get a reliable reading - even when I was adding 15 drops, there was no detectable ammonia in as short as an hour! I cannot find concrete examples anywhere on the net that definitively shows a resolution to a scenario where the ammonia -> nitrite bacteria is kickin', but the nitrite - > nitrate bacteria seems to be failing.

I guess this will all be an interesting experience once fish are added. Hope it is a good experience and not a death tank! If that happens, I might seriously consider draining everything and starting over. Too bad no one in my area seems to sell bio spira.