Moving from old tank to new :-O

[kennedpa]

Ok....decided to move up to a 4x2x2 tank.... my dilema is

1) The new tank needs to go in the same spot as the current one
2) Number one above is the issue :-O

Whats the best way to logistically do the move allowing the new tank to settle, using existing plants and some of course the water from the old tank. I have a spare filter to run the existing tank while the current filter runs on the new tank( all that good bacteria etc)

The current tank is on a tiled floor... would it be safe for the tank to be 3/4 empty and be slid across the floor a few feet?

I have accepted I will need to buy new heater cable, gravel and substrate unless I put all the fish in an 18inch tank till the new one is ready for its occupants :-O ...any good Project Manager out there :-O

I'm sure this shouldnt be as difficult as I think it is..

Thanks in advance for your suggestions...

[Sharon]

Remove fish into large plastic bin, with old filter running. Drain old tank. Move it. Place new tank, and transfer all that you need from the old tank. Fill, add dechlorinator. Start new filter...Run OLD filter on this tank, until new filter is seeded. When the required temp is stable, transfer fish...:ssmile:

[Jaster]

Sharon is spot on! :goodpost:
Thats the safest way for your fish, you can keep you bio filters nice and ready to go with the old filter until the new filter's media catches up, and you won't have a couple feet of scratches on your tile floor! Once the tank temps are stable you can put everyone back in their new home.

[Northernguy]

I also agree with Sharon.:19:
All it takes is one ooooops and you are either replacing or fixing a tank.
Its more work but much safer.

[bushwhacker]

and dont bother saving your old water it really does nothing for you

[Sharon]

If you don't use any old water, the fish will be subjected to a 100% water change...I think I'd use some of the old....

[btate617]

You have your established filter you don't need the old water, truthfully you don't need the old water for anything, water your plants with it. There is nothing wrong with 100% new water, all the "good" stuff you need is in your filter.

Brian

[jaysee]

If you don't use any old water, the fish will be subjected to a 100% water change...I think I'd use some of the old....

Absolutely - creates a buffer. However, if you regularly do large partial water changes on the order of 50%, you can start stepping that up for a couple weeks before the move. If you're changing out 75% every 5 days, your tank water and tap water will be almost identical and when you do a 90% change (setting up the new tank), the fish will be fine. This assumes you don't alter your water. If you maintain a pH that is significantly different than the tap water, this becomes MUCH more difficult.

Brian, you're assuming the tap water is the same as the tank water. If the water change schedule is lacking, the parameters can be very different and a 100% w/c can easily shock and kill the fish.

[btate617]

I just don't agree with the you need to step up your water changes to get to big ones. It doesn't take weeks or months to get from 25% WC to 60%WC.
Unless you are someone who alters your PH, which is silly and not needed in ALMOST all cases, you can change as much water as you want provided you match as close as possible to the old temp and use the correct amount of prime or whatever your choice of product is.

When someone has a problem with their tank, whatever the problem may be, and a water change is recommended to them noone says up your WC by a bit so you can get to 50%. The advise may be do this or that and a 50% WC.
And it doesn't matter that the fish are already stressed because of the problem..... a big WC is not bad for a fresh water tank.

Another point. When we tell people to take old media when setting up a new tank for an instant cycle. Thats it, you have the media, fill the tank and you are set. Where is the difference in this and doing a huge water change? It is the same.

You need no benifits from old water when setting up a new tank. You need to seed a new filter....

Brian

[Sharon]

There are no benefits to old water in reference to the cycle. As far as the fish are concerned, I don't agree. I think using all NEW may likely shock the fish...we'll have to agree to disagree on that one....:ssmile:

[btate617]

There are no benefits to old water in reference to the cycle. As far as the fish are concerned, I don't agree. I think using all NEW may likely shock the fish...we'll have to agree to disagree on that one....:ssmile:

Thats cool Sharon I am not saying I am right and you are wrong :nono:

But how will new water likely shock the fish? That part I just don't get.
I do 80-90% changes on all my tanks atleast once a month, the other changes throughout the month are around 50% I honestly don't see how that could shock the fish.
Yes mine are all cichlids, and I could see your point for some sensitive species of fish, but for most I just don't see/understand the harm. Thats all.

Brian

[Sharon]

Cichlids are very forgiving fish. I do an 80% change on mine every week, and I adjust the Ph up accordingly, as my water is very soft. I've never lost one...
I've lost fish by doing large water changes on another tank. There are substances in the water that we don't even measure...I'm not sure I'm right, and there are two schools of thought. I guess it's just a personal decision...:ssmile:

[jaysee]

I'm sorry you're right, I blended a couple of thoughts. I meant if you do larger regular water changes it'll be okay, but if you do small infrequent changes, doing a complete water change is risky. Maybe not a HUGE risk resulting in the tank imploding, but there is the potential for shocking the fish and fish that are already weakened (for WHATEVER reason) may fall victim.

Don't take this personally Kennedpa, but I am assuming the worst with my advice. Prepare for the worst and you'll never get caught off guard. Truth is I don't know the state of your tank or how well you maintain it. Nobody but you knows that. You could tell us you do x, y and z, but again, we don't really know. Personally, I take people at their word.

The advice is also for other people who may be silently monitoring the thread or are afraid to be truthful with the state of their tank.

Brian, there are people out there that do 10% water change once a month. There are also people that NEVER do them. Both groups of people are just as likely as you or I to upgrade a tank. The parameters of tanks like those are likely to be VERY different from the tap water. Mainly, we are talking about pH. A significant pH swing can easily wipe out a tank.

[btate617]

Brian, there are people out there that do 10% water change once a month. There are also people that NEVER do them. Both groups of people are just as likely as you or I to upgrade a tank. The parameters of tanks like those are likely to be VERY different from the tap water. Mainly, we are talking about pH. A significant pH swing can easily wipe out a tank.


I agree with you jaysee. And I assume people do the maint on their tank, atleast the minimum amount. I know I know silly me. And if they don't and their fish die well lesson learned the hard way if you ask me. Its a hobby and hobbies take time put in to them. If you are on here asking questions to get better at what you do, good on you. But I assume you know the basic care needed for your fish. After all if you are here, you have google and can find out what most of your fish need to survive.
Thats why I say you can do a big change no problem. If you keep up on your tanks you have nothing to worry about.


A significant pH swing can easily wipe out a tank
I agree 100%. Thats why I think it is a bit of a joke when people ask how to raise their ph from 7 to 7.4. 99% of the fish people own from lfs will adapt to what your water is, now you change it and you have to maintain it now.Unless you are trying to breed a fish that has some special requirements to breed leave it alone. These lfs fish are so far removed from their natural habitat/requirements you tap water really is ok without altering in most cases.

Also kudos to those members who answer the same questions day after day. The forum wouldn't work without you, I don't have the patience for it so good on those of you who do.

Brian

[thatcichlidguy]

There are no benefits to old water in reference to the cycle. As far as the fish are concerned, I don't agree. I think using all NEW may likely shock the fish...we'll have to agree to disagree on that one....:ssmile: I'll have to disagree on the new water shocking the fish. While you would be introducing the fish into a potentially radically different set of water parameters, adding some of the old water really just adds pollutants to the new water. If your doing things right your acclimating the fish to the new water conditions while your draining the old tank moving stuff around, setting up the new tank ect. The old water just isn't needed . Any buffering benefit you might get can be acomplished by simply buffering the new water. To put it another way, it's like buying a new car and then moving all the old burger wrappers and pop bottles from the old car into the new one. It's not really needed since you'll accumulate trash in the new car eventually anyway so why bother adding the old trash? A new tank is like a new car, both are fresh starts so why would we want to trash them?

[Sharon]

I do agree that if you acclimate the fish first, it would be fine. :ssmile:

[kennedpa]

There are no benefits to old water in reference to the cycle. As far as the fish are concerned, I don't agree. I think using all NEW may likely shock the fish...we'll have to agree to disagree on that one....:ssmile:

Yeh thats why was at the minds of using as much of the old water as possible to minimise shock:sconfused:

[kennedpa]

.[/QUOTE]Brian, there are people out there that do 10% water change once a month. There are also people that NEVER do them. Both groups of people are just as likely as you or I to upgrade a tank. The parameters of tanks like those are likely to be VERY different from the tap water. Mainly, we are talking about pH. A significant pH swing can easily wipe out a tank.[/QUOTE]


Re water changes, thats not an issue as I do a 40-50% change weekly, slightly more when I clean the filter.

[kennedpa]

Ok, thankyou all for the feedback, now I am totally confused...ONLY JOKING FOLKS ! :-)

So the way I see it, the plan of action is as follows

1) Put fishies in a bucket/s with water from the tank
2) Optional to save the remainder of the old water to add to new tank
3) Strip old tank
4) Move it outta the way
5) Locate new tank
6) wash and add new/existing gravel, rocks, drift wood and plants
7) run new tank with existing filter and median
8) once temp where it should be add fish
9) in theory all of the above happens on the same day

:-O have I missed anything?

[Sharon]

kennedpa...that cichlid guy offers a good solution. When you put the fish in the bin, use your old water, and keep adding new until you have a 50/50 mixture. If you do this over the time period that the move is going to take, the fish will actually be acclimated . That way you could add all new water.thumbs2:
I'd wash the new gravel the day before...it's going to be a long day as it is...

[kennedpa]

kennedpa...that cichlid guy offers a good solution. When you put the fish in the bin, use your old water, and keep adding new until you have a 50/50 mixture. If you do this over the time period that the move is going to take, the fish will actually be acclimated . That way you could add all new water.thumbs2:
I'd wash the new gravel the day before...it's going to be a long day as it is...


Sharon, agree...lots of great advice and seeds for my thoughts and planning..so all is good. Some points have come up that I didnt think about so at least I am now prep'd...

So as far as I am concerned AC has done for me what I hoped as it has done for many other members new and old...This is a great community with a lot of combined knowledge..new and old...what better place to be knowing the knowledge and resources are available in one spot...ACthumbs2: Thanks EVERYONE !:19:

[kennedpa]

I'll have to disagree on the new water shocking the fish. While you would be introducing the fish into a potentially radically different set of water parameters, adding some of the old water really just adds pollutants to the new water. If your doing things right your acclimating the fish to the new water conditions while your draining the old tank moving stuff around, setting up the new tank ect. The old water just isn't needed . Any buffering benefit you might get can be acomplished by simply buffering the new water. To put it another way, it's like buying a new car and then moving all the old burger wrappers and pop bottles from the old car into the new one. It's not really needed since you'll accumulate trash in the new car eventually anyway so why bother adding the old trash? A new tank is like a new car, both are fresh starts so why would we want to trash them?


Thanks mate - great advice

[kennedpa]

Well I better get myself ready and head out to buy me a tank thumbs2:

[jaysee]

K - If you do 50% every week, you are in the clear IMO and have nothing to worry about. I've done complete water changes without acclimation each time I switched substrates to sand and have never lost a fish. Best of luck to you!

[Wetpets]

If you don't use any old water, the fish will be subjected to a 100% water change...I think I'd use some of the old....

Yep! First off, beneficial bacteria do colonise the water column as well as the biologocal filter media - in fact anywhere you have a water flow and not too strong light. I have done this a few times...

Secondly the Amonia and Nitrite that occurs in very minute quantities in your water (even if your test kits register "0ppm") are important to maintain your colony of bacteria - especially in the old filter - and with the fish being added to 100% new water a percentage of the colony may die off as there is not enought to 'eat'. This, of course depends on how loaded your setup is. With an upgraded size I would not worry too much, but if you were adding more fish than I'd play it safe and use 50% old water.

One more point, with 50% old water you risk less while acclimating the fish as they will be sensitive to a new water chemistry (100% new water).

I have done this the following way (there is no real wrong way as long as you have a seeded filter that can handle the new volume).


- Siphon 50% clean water from your tank (ie: no gravel vacuuming!) into a plastic bin or spare tank if you have one.
- Transfer heater and filter the the bin and run.
- Catch fish and place them in the tub.
- Drain old tank and wash gravel etc.
- Fill new tank with 25% new, add heater (or heated water) to get to temp.
- Then take half of the bin water and add to tank
- Move old filter to new tank and run.
- Acclimating: there are several ways to do this but I siphon new water mix (now 50% of the new tank, 25% old water from bin and 25% new) back into the bin, slowly every 5 minutes until full.
- Once full you have (Oh dear Mr Maths has deserted me) around 66% old water mixed with new.
- Move fish into new tank with bin water.
- leave them for a day or two in that mix and top up later.

[thatcichlidguy]

The amount of BB in the water column is negligable. The biomedia wont die instanly and if you're running the filter in the container that the fish are in while your setting up the new tank plus acclimating the fish at the same time, then there will be no die off. Killing off the BB only occurs if the water parameters are significantly different than the original tank. Asuming that the water is from the same source as what you've been using for your water changes then the chances of killing your BB are slim. Particularly if you've been doing acclimation during that period. BB are tougher than you think and can weather a hick-up in their food source with little if any impact to the colony. The most important thing is that they recieve oxygen. Without that they will die off and quickly too. One other thing to think about is that if your local water supply has chloramines in it(and most do these days) the water conditioner breaks the chlorine ammonia bond and releases ammonium (a safe form of ammonia) into the water. The BB can use this for food and it is safe to the fish. Long story short , they wont die of starvation from a 100% waterchange.

Acclimating the fish to the new water conditions while they're still in the holding bin virtually elliminates any chance of fish loss when done properly. Adding the old water just adds pollutants from the old tank, and has no real benefit. Kinda goes back to my new car analogy. It makes no sence to load up your new car with trash from the old one to make you feel comfortable in it. it's the same with our tanks . Considering how much time we spend trying to remove pollutants from our water , why would we want to add them back ?

[jaysee]

Yep! First off, beneficial bacteria do colonise the water column as well as the biologocal filter media - in fact anywhere you have a water flow and not too strong light. I have done this a few times... .

There may be some stray bacteria floating in the water, but that would certainly not constitute a colony - They are being transported by the water, not colonizing it. The vast majority of the bacteria colonies are inside the filter where the water flow is at its highest. There isn't enough ammonia in the water to support an efficient colony within the ambient current of the tank. However, inside the tank the bacteria does grow on the biofilm that covers everything with a surface area and relies on ammonia particles to haplessly float by in order to survive. And even if you removed the colonies that are in the tank, the colony in the filter would pick up the slack without delay because it's being force fed all the water in the tank. Water doesn't have a surface area so how can it live there? Also, the water in a tank is turned over many times an hour, so how could it survive?

Secondly the Amonia and Nitrite that occurs in very minute quantities in your water (even if your test kits register "0ppm") are important to maintain your colony of bacteria - especially in the old filter - and with the fish being added to 100% new water a percentage of the colony may die off as there is not enought to 'eat'. This, of course depends on how loaded your setup is. With an upgraded size I would not worry too much, but if you were adding more fish than I'd play it safe and use 50% old water..

This is true, but the colony will survive and it doesn't take long for it to rebound. The colony is constantly dying and multiplying anyways, so this is nothing new.

One more point, with 50% old water you risk less while acclimating the fish as they will be sensitive to a new water chemistry (100% new water).

Kennedpa does weekly 50% changes, so there wouldn't be ANY risk in keeping it 50/50. Large regular water changes like that keep the tank water pretty close to the tap, so there wouldn't be much of a change in water chemistry. Even more so if the changes were bumped up to 75% before the move. I do weekly 50% changes and have safely done 100% changes without fail, but I do a couple of 75% changes first.


I used to acclimatize, but not anymore.

[kennedpa]

:18: DOH

Thanks guys and gals.... now is that 25% OF WATER with or without rocks and gravel in the tank:sconfused:

[kennedpa]

Golly gosh...went out for the day tank shopping after searching the net... my how a 4x2x2 with cabinet can vary in price... the ones I looked at all timber cabinets, no mdf or chip board with tank 6mm glass reinforced ranges from $850 ($AU) to $1500($AU).... sort of makes one wonder whats wrong with the cheaper one...or am I reading too much in to this... The 1500 dolla one you cannot buy direct, have to go via a retailer :-O ( even waved CASH in front of him..no go )

The two that I am deciding on

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[Wetpets]

[QUOTE=Sharon]kennedpa...that cichlid guy offers a good solution....QUOTE]


Yep.

[kennedpa]

Finally bought the new tank today :ssmile: Also got a good deal on two twin tube T8's... 3 to 4 weeks deliver for the tank, so plenty of time to plan the aquascape :-)