Mean Geophagus!!

[SouthernGal0682]

My Geophagus Brasileasis and one of his women just had about a million babies (not really but it looks like that many). The other female looks plump and ready to lay some eggs, but the male is being so aggressive with her she is about worn out. She has lost most of her color and she is hiding out near the top of the tank. I have a smaller tank that I can move her to to give her a break, but I don't want to disturb her too much if she needs to lay her eggs. So should I...

Move her to another tank so the male will stop being so mean to her (he has killed a female before doing the same thing)

Leave her in the tank with the male so she can lay her eggs and doesn't go into shock with the move.

[rich311k]

I would move her. The eggs are not as important as the fish's life.

[Algenco]

they should only be kept as a pair, if you had a huge tank the extra female might work, though not likely

[btate617]

Like Algenco has said she should be moved. Some Geophagus will spawn with more than one female if more than one is ready, the male does his thing then moves on. However with G. Brasiliensis the male sticks around and helps the female with guarding the eggs and in raising the fry. The extra female is an intruder now that they have spawned and should be removed or she will probably be killed. How big is the tank, if it is big enough you may be able to make her her own territory as far from the pair as possible and she may be ok but that depends on how much room you have. Congrats on the spawn, a great fish for anyone else thinking about getting into Geophagus.

Brian

[SouthernGal0682]

Like Algenco has said she should be moved. Some Geophagus will spawn with more than one female if more than one is ready, the male does his thing then moves on. However with G. Brasiliensis the male sticks around and helps the female with guarding the eggs and in raising the fry. The extra female is an intruder now that they have spawned and should be removed or she will probably be killed. How big is the tank, if it is big enough you may be able to make her her own territory as far from the pair as possible and she may be ok but that depends on how much room you have. Congrats on the spawn, a great fish for anyone else thinking about getting into Geophagus.

Brian
Thanks for the info! I'm getting the tank ready to move her. It is exactly as you described, they are guarding the fry and obviously dont want her around!

The 3 are in a 38 gallon with live plants and a big hollow log. The 2 that spawned have dug a hole and that is where they are guarding their babies. The female that is being picked on has tried to take up residence in the log, but the male won't let her stay in there either. Right now she is just hiding in a plant that they dug up and is floating at the top of the tank.

[Wetpets]

Know your fish... She should have been moved BEFORE the symptoms you describe. You can get a big breeder net for her in the interim, but the best solution is to find a GOOD home, or (IMHO) a second smaller tank and a new male...

Congrats on the eggs

(I can't give awards yet - or I have not figured it out)

[jackson17]

Know your fish... She should have been moved BEFORE the symptoms you describe. You can get a big breeder net for her in the interim, but the best solution is to find a GOOD home, or (IMHO) a second smaller tank and a new male...

Congrats on the eggs

(I can't give awards yet - or I have not figured it out)

I think you need to have E-money on the forum to do so. If not then I don't know

[Wetpets]

Know your fish... She should have been moved BEFORE the symptoms you describe. You can get a big breeder net for her in the interim, but the best solution is to find a GOOD home, or (IMHO) a second smaller tank and a new male...

Congrats on the eggs

(I can't give awards yet - or I have not figured it out)

PS: Someone give a cred to btate617... good question with some great answers.

[Wetpets]

I think you need to have E-money on the forum to do so. If not then I don't know

LOL. If only I could buy more tanks, electricity (and if you read the news we are up 31.5% from July 1) and fish...

We "Were" the most expensive nation in terms of Elec, and now the raise!

[Wetpets]

I'm just a lonely Sword.

(Green Lyretail in my fantsies (The one I breed))

LOOK ALGENGO and TAURUS... I'm being polite! LOL

[Red]

Wetpets yes you can give rep, look up on the post you want to give rep too, and see the balence type thing, to the left of the triangle with the question mark and to the right of the post number, that is how you give out rep.

To give out a gift (as in you have a german blue ram) you go to shop menu, give gifts then right the username you want to give it too and right under that give a reason.

I have nothing to add, all has been corrert and great advice!

[Algenco]

I'm just a lonely Sword.

(Green Lyretail in my fantsies (The one I breed))

LOOK ALGENGO and TAURUS... I'm being polite! LOL

You now have enough points:22:

[btate617]

Know your fish... She should have been moved BEFORE the symptoms you describe. You can get a big breeder net for her in the interim, but the best solution is to find a GOOD home, or (IMHO) a second smaller tank and a new male...

Congrats on the eggs

(I can't give awards yet - or I have not figured it out)


I will disagree just a bit. If this is their first spawn she may not know which female the male will spawn with. Also say she tries to move the extra female she may spook the pair and mess up a spawn.
Also don't put the extra female in a breeder net the male will hound her and eventually get to her. For 38gal I would now just leave it with the pair.

If you want to try and raise some fry in another tank you can syphon some out. However leave about have the fry in the tank with the pair. If you don't the male will be ready to try again and the feamle won't be ready. He will try and could end up stressing her or possible killing her off.
Also don't be surprised if this is their first spawn if the eat the fry. Just you looking in the tank could spook them and they may eat they fry, or just eat them with no interference from you at all. If something does happen to the fry put that extra female back in the tank so the male has two females to harass. In time they will get everything down.
Congrats again.

Brian

[Red]

Btate, thanks for the second part, very interesting. I got a question, could you siphon out all the fry, then take out the female that just layed all the eggs and leave the female in there with all the eggs and get the spawn?

[Wetpets]

I will disagree just a bit. If this is their first spawn she may not know which female the male will spawn with. Brian

I have no experience with Brasiliansis, but plenty with the Geophagus specie. I do not know this fish, but consider the group similar in generic respects (and with others)...

btate617: I'll be PM-ing you on advice on P.scalare...

[thatcichlidguy]

Like Algenco has said she should be moved. Some Geophagus will spawn with more than one female if more than one is ready, the male does his thing then moves on. However with G. Brasiliensis the male sticks around and helps the female with guarding the eggs and in raising the fry. The extra female is an intruder now that they have spawned and should be removed or she will probably be killed. How big is the tank, if it is big enough you may be able to make her her own territory as far from the pair as possible and she may be ok but that depends on how much room you have. Congrats on the spawn, a great fish for anyone else thinking about getting into Geophagus.

BrianThat's a big if .Braziliensis are notoriously beligerent and especially so during spawning. I agree with keeping them as established pairs since conspecific aggression is a real problem with them. Moving the extra female is mandatory .

One thing that no one has addressed is that your tank is too small to house these fish long term. G. Braziliensis grows very large and can reach 12". A 38g just doesn't provide adequate space for these brutes.

On another note, these are not good beginers Geos. Mostly because they are sooooo different from all other Geos. They are only being lumped into the Geophagus family out of a lack of a better to put them for now. They are only somewhat similar in terms of physiology, and not even close in terms of genetics.

[btate617]

Btate, thanks for the second part, very interesting. I got a question, could you siphon out all the fry, then take out the female that just layed all the eggs and leave the female in there with all the eggs and get the spawn?


Yes and no. These fish are not harem breeders.
Take the Gymnogeophagus I keep, I try to keep one male to three females, much like people do for Africans in breeding groups. The male Gymnogeophagus will spawn with the female then he goes in search for another ripe female. Gymnogeophagus however are delayed mouthbrooders, so once the male fertilizes the eggs the female just sits there staring at them for 24-48 hours, after that time she will pick them up and continue in the process. I learned the hard way to only keep one male with the group as while the female is sitting "watching" her eggs she will chase off other females and the male she spawned with however the second male will push his way in and eat the eggs.

Now with fish who lay eggs and share the duty of protecting and raising the fry, sometimes the male will spawn with a newly introduced female sometimes not, in my experience. Once you get a proven pair of cichlids, the hard part is done. I would leave the pair together but as I said if they do eat the fry for whatever reason, I would add the other female back to act as a dither and take most of the males aggression while the feamle he spawned with gets ready for her second go at it.

Brian

[Red]

Oh ok, thanks for the info btate!

[btate617]

Like thatcichlidguy said they will need a bigger tank, but they spawn at a small size and will be ok for a bit. If you have the room a nice fish most people do not grow out to full size.
Another reason I think they are good for a beginner is they tolerate a wide range of conditions that most Geo's do not.

Brian

[thatcichlidguy]

I would add the other female back to act as a dither and take most of the males aggression while the feamle he spawned with gets ready for her second go at it.
I would disagree on that . It's a better idea to move the male to the female rather than try and re-introduce the extra female. reintroduction will cause the same issue that the OP is currently having only worse. Moving the male makes him have to be on his best behavior in the extra females tank and is more likely to work since it levels the playing field in terms of territory since he wont have any and she'll have to accept him. Just works better that way IME.

[btate617]

The issues she is having have been worsened by the spawn. I was saying if by chance the pair eat the fry to put both females in that way he beats on both females not just the one. You could move the male, I don't move males myself but that would work. I always keep some 2-3 inch Aequidens Pulcher around and use them for cases like this, they are tough and can take quite a bit to relieve some pressure off of females.
Either way will work I just move a different fish than thatcichlidguy.
I just don't move males around everytime they get rough with their women, life as a cichlid, the females need to toughen up or I will have to get him a new girlie.

Brian

[thatcichlidguy]

Another reason I think they are good for a beginner is they tolerate a wide range of conditions that most Geo's do not.That's because they are in reality not Geos. One of the many problems with this species is that while they are somewhat similar in terms of physical attributes, that's where the similarity ends. Right now there isn't anywhere else to put them so they are staying put in the geo family until someone reclassifies them into another genus where they belong. For all practicle purposes though they should be treated more like a CA cichlid in terms of aggression and general disposition.

[SouthernGal0682]

Wow I had no idea this would stir up so much discussion!!

Anyway, to answer some of the questions. I have been keeping fish for over 11 years. This tank has been established for 3. I am aware of how to research fish and care for them. Being as this is the internet (and you all should be aware of this), you get different information everywhere. The advice that has been given today differs from the advice I get from my trusted fish store. So I usually get the advice and go with my instinct.

As far as the spawn goes, this is the first time in 11 years I have had fish lay eggs so I am not all that knowledgable on how to deal with the eggs and the parents. Again, I have read and been told everything from they will eat all the eggs before they hatch, to they are awesome parents and don't remove the parents from the fry. Abvously they didn't eat their eggs and as of right now they are diligently protecting their fry.

For the odd female, she is in my smaller tank now and is resting peacefully. The information I gathered on this fish from more than one source said that this is a harem fish and a male should have more than one female. The 3 of them have gotten along fine untill the fry showed up this morning so I think it is safe to say that the parents are protecting their babies from the odd female. My question about whether or not to move her stems from not knowing how the fish will act with the babies around. I wasn't sure if the males aggression to this female was temporary or if he would eventually kill her.

Its been a while since I've posted on this board and now I remember why. Too many "Experts".

Btate617: Thank you for your advice.

[Red]

Its been a while since I've posted on this board and now I remember why. Too many "Experts".[/B]

well thats not the nicest thing to do, you had plenty of people help you. Sorry you feel that way:22:

[btate617]

Yes all true but until I get into renaming cichlids with those that do it, they are in fact still Geophagus Brasiliensis. Do they belong there, no not at all, but they are there.
Once they change the name it won't matter people will still be calling them geos for years to come. It is the same with Norte's they have been reclassified for awhile now as gymno's but people still put (ex-meridionalis) Gymnogeophagus sp. Notre. Look at Synspilus, you can find them listed under Cichlasoma, Paratheraps, Vieja.....etc.
People who aren't big into latin or the true names go with what they know. How many fish are called Jurupari? With the majority of people it doesn't matter, I know what the scientific name of my fish and most the local river systems they were collected from, but for most on this froum and many others they could care less. They have a fish named Tommy and that makes them happy.

Brian

[btate617]

Wow I had no idea this would stir up so much discussion!!

Anyway, to answer some of the questions. I have been keeping fish for over 11 years. This tank has been established for 3. I am aware of how to research fish and care for them. Being as this is the internet (and you all should be aware of this), you get different information everywhere. The advice that has been given today differs from the advice I get from my trusted fish store. So I usually get the advice and go with my instinct.

As far as the spawn goes, this is the first time in 11 years I have had fish lay eggs so I am not all that knowledgable on how to deal with the eggs and the parents. Again, I have read and been told everything from they will eat all the eggs before they hatch, to they are awesome parents and don't remove the parents from the fry. Abvously they didn't eat their eggs and as of right now they are diligently protecting their fry.

For the odd female, she is in my smaller tank now and is resting peacefully. The information I gathered on this fish from more than one source said that this is a harem fish and a male should have more than one female. The 3 of them have gotten along fine untill the fry showed up this morning so I think it is safe to say that the parents are protecting their babies from the odd female. My question about whether or not to move her stems from not knowing how the fish will act with the babies around. I wasn't sure if the males aggression to this female was temporary or if he would eventually kill her.

Its been a while since I've posted on this board and now I remember why. Too many "Experts".

Btate617: Thank you for your advice.


No worries SouthernGal, good luck with them.

Brian

[Wetpets]

I have sent your pics and URL of forum to my PROF at University of Rhodes. I they don't know, then maybe Oprah will? LOL

[thatcichlidguy]

Well for the fish eating their fry, it happens . Mostly on the first batch or two and normally something causes this. Could be anything from other fish harasising them (if it's a community tank) to the hobbiest paying too much attention to the fry and causing the parents to stress out over it. It's not automatic, or even very likely, but it does happen sometimes. Normally most cichlids are wonderfull parents and will take care of the fry just fine.

Braziliensis are not harem brooders, many Geos are but these fish aren't geos in the strictest sence either. The extra female is just another competitor as far as the pair is concerned. The male or the female would likely kill her if she was left in the tank with the parents and fry. Like I mentioned this species is more like a CA cichlid in terms of behavior and aggression. Spawning amplifies that .

For raising the fry, this is the tricky part since your extra tank is currently occupied. basicly you've got two choices leave the fry with the parents and let them raise them or re-home the odd female and use that for a grow out tank. leaving them with the parents is fine but once the pair is ready to spawn again the fry will be history. Depending on what your plans are for them this isn't always a bad thing. If you want to raise the fry to a sellable size(provided you have a buyer) then the second option is viable . You would want to move them after a week or so after free swimming. This helps weed out the weeker fry. Multiple daily feedings of Baby brine shrimp and later (finely)crushed flake food are excellent for the fast growing fry. Daily waterchanges are needed for keeping the tank clean and water quality high for fast growth and good health. If you leave them with the parents then some BBs and finely crushed flake can be added to the tank at feeding time but the parents will find ways to see that their brood eats. No matter what species I have breeding I'm always amazed at well cichlid parents can care for their fry. And people say fish are stupid......

The unfortunate truth is that there is a lot of bad info out there on this species and many others. Some sites only have very generic info on them that is basicly the same for all Geos. Makes things very confusing since they don't act like other Geos.