To hormone or not? That is the commercial question...

[Wetpets]

OK, I have momma's little helper - a synthetic birth-inducing hormone that has worked for 3 months now with 0% mortality...

What do you think of hormone-induced laying?

Before you make up your minds, let me give you the facts (as I have experienced):

- The hormone is injected into the dorsal muscle of the fish (0.5ml per kg of broodfish).

- I have 1000+ glowlight tetra fry (from injecting 4 females only - with 3 males added) @ 0.02ml per dose (The smallest fish I have injected so far - and no parental deaths). That is the tip of the iceberg! Needless to say easy-layers like Angels, Rams, Livebearers and Rainbows (serial spawners) are NOT injected.

- Glowlights now spawing every three weeks!

- The hormone is a function of temperature.

- The hormone is an artificially created substance (a product of South Africa used in hatcheries in Singapore - where most of your fish come from)

- I have noted that specie become more prolific natural spawners after injection.

- I treat my smaller spawing tanks with anti-bacterial meds to avoid infection of the entry wound (moreso with smaller specie like tetra).

- Fish must be gravid for the hormone to work (ie: it will not make a fish pregnant/gravid). You have to get your broodstock to that state (environment / tank setup). Hormone therapy is a "push over the edge" in the absence of a final breeding cue.

I have to point out that I only inject fish that refuse to lay - for four reasons:

1. Over- or long term gravidity in females can (not saying "will") cause infertility and/or death.

2. Males of a specie(s) are always ready (just like us eh?). Females are more reluctant (ladies, I will be at the pub in two hours..)

3. One injection makes better future spawners (naturally). Every species I have spawned artificially, now do so on their own... It is an accelarated maturity programme as well as a direct response. Once a fish (pair) has done their business, (artificially or natural) they will mature as a couple (or group, in the case of smaller tetras), and start spawing "without help"

4. (truthfully) I have a business to run.

Some of my LFS's do not want the offspring (I am open about how I breed). But others (my biggest LFS and Distributor) say they are the healthiest fish they've ever seen (PS: delivery mortality = 0%... touch wood).

I would like to know your judgements on synthesised hormones, injecting fish (responsibly) and selling of them. Let me point out that I'm dead-against growth hormones, accentuated feed and irresponsible growth practices...

Comments? Negative or Positive are welcome.

[Red]

To be honest, I don't like it. I never will. I don't hate on other people that do it though. If you inject young with hormones for they have greater color, that where I have a huge issue with. (not saying you do)

"I would like to know your judgements on synthesised hormones, injecting fish (responsibly) and selling of them. Let me point out that I'm dead-against growth hormones, accentuated feed and irresponsible growth practices..."

This is big for me too, I think its terrible! I would like to see people trying hormones with fish, that in the wild are getting overfished due to popular request, but with a glolight tetra I find it over doing it a bit.

[jackson17]

I don't really know. I think it's kind of cool actually. Could make breeding hard fish easier thus getting them out into the ''market'' more.

[Wetpets]

For those that are interested I can supply the contact details of AquaSpawn and a pictorial instruction on injection (as well as aftercare)...

PS: To reiterate, I have NOT lost a fish yet to injection...

Fish injected so far:
- Tilapia (outside Aquaponics system)
- Glowlight Tetra (1000+ fry, now 2 weeks old/young)
- Shibunkins (95 babies - took a photo and counted! - and laying as we speak)
- Paradise Fish (gravid females and non-performing males... injected males and they built nests within 52 hours). Now have hundreds of fry (three weeks).
-Columbian Tetra (Injected heavily gravid females that dropped infertile eggs. Since initial injection I have had 4 batches (incubator hatched) of eggs with no injection required.
- 2 x Female and 1 x Male Silver Dollars. I have raised +/- 40 babies to 1cm+ and have nearly 500 eggs in incubator...

All of the specie above were injected only once!

[Wetpets]

To be honest, I don't like it. I never will. I don't hate on other people that do it though. If you inject young with hormones for they have greater color, that where I have a huge issue with. (not saying you do)

This is big for me too, I think its terrible! I would like to see people trying hormones with fish, that in the wild are getting overfished due to popular request, but with a glolight tetra I find it over doing it a bit.

I am an entry (under WetPets) on the artificial dying of fish (painted fish), hormone growth tablets and hormone-induced crosses of fish (at Practical Fishkeeping UK). I use my therapy responsibly, with caution and with a great amount of follow-through! Please see [Only Registered Users Can See Links.].

The fact is though, in my country, where imports are much cheaper than locally-bred fish, we need an upper hand. I'm not saying it is internationally accepted (but my month with a Thai hatchery showed me things you would not believe! Like breeding broodstock and "milking them to death".

RE: Glowlights. I have had gravid glowlights for 5+ months. A single dose has not only induced a great spawn with them, but when I re-introduced them back into their species tank the other females began to spawn (waterborne hormone?). They no longer need hormone therapy...

But, if you read my earlier posts, my mission is to breed wild-caught stock to the point where I / the industry can shut down the wild capture of sensitive specie(s).

[bushwhacker]

while i cant really agree on your methods.. not having seen the results personally. it sounds like your having good results.. if its not hurting your breeding stocks over time then i cant condemn you

[Wetpets]

An added note: It took at least two months of research, practical experience and testimonials from local experts for me to make my decision to use AquaSpawn. It is not a spawing aid on the market, but is has worked for me and those I supply. And yes, with such a great power (over fish) comes great responsibility... I beleive that you do need to achieve natural births before resorting to this kind of treatment? (Red S...?)

I inject between the scales, causing minimal damage and maximum "horniness" (or final stage development of the gonopodium, and function). You should see my goldfish (initial subjects). Babies, babies, babies. All sold.

In any event I am focussing on the following (wild-caught) species:
: Celestichthys margaritatus (Celestial Danio; Galaxy Rasbora)
: Locally-caught (endangered) Small-scale Red-Finned Minnow Israeli Tilapia: Tiger rasbora (Lake Inle Danio) - Inlecypris auropurpurea
: etc...

[Northernguy]

I like the challenge of letting the fish do it!
The market may already be flooded with those fry anyway!

[Wetpets]

I don't really know. I think it's kind of cool actually. Could make breeding hard fish easier thus getting them out into the ''market'' more.

"Market" is right... I want to contribute to lessening wild-caught stock as much as possible, while maintaining genetic integrity...

[jaysee]

I think we do far worse to more important animals, so I'm not bothered by it one bit. Best of luck.

[Wild Turkey]

Cant say I agree with the practice of injecting fish to make them more attractive and as red put it I never will.

I will never will buy a dyed, injected, or gm fish.

Why not gm? Because even though the process is harmless compared to other methods of making fish more attractive..when i have a tank full of glowfish and someone sees it, they see bright, unnaturally colored fish. Promted by my tank, they go to lfs and buy the most colorful dyed and gm fishes, contributing to the "problem" which in my opinion, yes its a problem.

A year ago we were saying "where will it end?!?" and that was before they had neon housecats.

I dont think citing your companies or local economy's well being changes anything about the process or end result. Thats just my opinion, but have you seen the "do not support dyed fish!" thread?

[Wetpets]

while i cant really agree on your methods.. not having seen the results personally. it sounds like your having good results.. if its not hurting your breeding stocks over time then i cant condemn you

I do not inject the 34+ species I have bred naturally... And some rather finnecky ones: neons, black neons, serpae, bumblebee plecs, etc...

[Taurus]

No thanks. Not on any fish that I would knowingly purchase. :22: This is all.

[Wetpets]

I will never will buy a dyed, injected, or gm fish.

See earlier post. I have my own campaign against dyed fish -in print (A1 posters) in EVERY LFS I supply.

+1+2 to you!

Agree!

PS: I am about to launch my website and my drive towards "be kind to fish" includes the UK "dyed fish campaign" (UK: Practical Fishkeeping Magazine).

PS: Fish feel pain... Proven - [Only Registered Users Can See Links.].

[jaysee]

But, if you read my earlier posts, my mission is to breed wild-caught stock to the point where I / the industry can shut down the wild capture of sensitive specie(s).

That's a great mission, and if you can make some money it's even better.

[Red]

Wetpets, kudos to you. I give you props on coming on here and taking opinions and understanding them. In my book, thats worth a lot.:22:

[Wild Turkey]

Lol sorry Wetpets let me re phrase. I would never buy a fish from someone who injects fish with dyes. Sorry.

Its not a personal thing with you or me, just im a man of principles and i tend to stand by them.

Along that line of thinking, there are a lot of members that do not shop at stores which carry dyed fish. Becuase of this, a lot of lfs are dropping their dyed stock in order to bring back their hardcore fanbase that spends the big bucks.

[William]

I am against the practice with one excemption, Endangered species that won't breed in captivity without hormones. It is ok if it help protect wild populations in danger.

[Wild Turkey]

I am against the practice with one excemption, Endangered species that won't breed in captivity without hormones. It is ok if it help protect wild populations in danger.

Very good point, one i had not considered. 100% agree

[Wetpets]

Lol sorry Wetpets let me re phrase. I would never buy a fish from someone who injects fish with dyes. Sorry.

Its not a personal thing with you or me, just im a man of principles and i tend to stand by them.

Along that line of thinking, there are a lot of members that do not shop at stores which carry dyed fish. Becuase of this, a lot of lfs are dropping their dyed stock in order to bring back their hardcore fanbase that spends the big bucks.

Jeez. See earlier posts. I am all about NATURAL, but sometimes you need a "little helper". I have my own SA print campaign against buying from stores with dyed / sick / immaciated / discoloured fish and less-than-perfect-display tanks. And I recommend that any fishkeeper asks to see a LFS quarantine area - if they dont have one, strike them off your list...

[Wild Turkey]

Jeez. See earlier posts. I am all about NATURAL, but sometimes you need a "little helper". I have my own SA print campaign against buying from stores with dyed / sick / immaciated / discoloured fish and less-than-perfect-display tanks. And I recommend that any fishkeeper asks to see a LFS quarantine area - if they dont have one, strike them off your list...

Not sure what this has to do with my statements. But i stand by them. We are all entitled to our own opinions and I was under the impression thats what you were looking for by starting the thread.

You cant expect to advocate injecting fish and not get opposing opinions on the matter.

[Gemini]

Hmmmmmmmm.
Question
- what impact does it have on the fry being able to breed? Do they then need to be injeccted to breed?

I can see the benefit as Will said for endangered species. Other than that I'm not a fan.

[Wetpets]

Guys and Gals,

Hell, I seem to have opened a 'hornet's nest"

Let me explain:

I breed (and have bred) over 25 species of ornamental by simulating their natural environments (because the knowledge is available).

I am building knowledge and experience of a widely-used hormone (a viagra for fish if you like) in the spawning of ALREADY-GRAVID (pregnant) female fish. I do NOT inject males. This is a synthesised hormone common to all fish specie (fresh- and salt-water alike). It is used in the cultivation of many (if not all) of non-easy breeders. If you have bought a Discus, Sri-Lankan Angel, Thai Reef Fish (amongst many, many others, you are almost guaranteed they (hatchery) have used our (SA) product to make your fish. It holds a worldwise patent, and is used extensively throughout the US, Canada and the EU as standard.

So I tried it.

The fact I have paid for my own 63-tank hatchey, and am about to do a Recirculating Aquaculure/Mariculture course says I really believe in the product...

But my vision for this "magic pill" is to rival wild-catchers (especially those approaching – or in – endangered specie capture... I alraedy have a 'relationship' with our local parks board (to be formalised).


Through them I will launch my own fish campaign, non-ink campaign and school education programme (which I do already - teaching 5-9 year olds how to care for-, feed-, and entertain- goldfish.

So, please do not think of me as a hormone-crazy businessman. I need it to achieve the impossible...

Anyone with me on this?

Fish = care = thought = kind regard

[Wetpets]

Hmmmmmmmm.
Question
- what impact does it have on the fry being able to breed? Do they then need to be injeccted to breed?

I can see the benefit as Will said for endangered species. Other than that I'm not a fan.

The function of the hormone is that of the temp and feed regulation. All in all it dissapates from the subject in no more that 50 hours. No negative side-effects occur after this. An anti-bacterial (for the scale-entry) would be prudent, but not required). As a "beneficial pathogen" it is completely exhausted in a very short time, and should not be used long-term, or in back-to-back treatments - as the after effects should be a natural progression form point of dose.

As far as other species are concerned - We import nearly 0.9 Million Rand of Neons per year (yes, just those blue and red jobs). Less than 16.15% of that R-value make it to your tank. It would be prudent to set up a 'dedicated' neon/tetra hatchery in this country... watch this space!

[Kaz]

Hmmm.

You have not opened a hornets nest; so far the response has been more mild than I expected.

Anyway Wetpets you have clearly already made up your mind already but for what it"s worth: I say use minimally with caution.

[Wetpets]

Hmmm. Anyway Wetpets you have clearly already made up your mind already but for what it"s worth: I say use minimally with caution.

I ordered 5ml. I still have 4.65ml left!

Caution enough?

Note: I am with all of you, but feel at a loss with argument as you have not used/experienced the product (or anything like it). I need to (commercially) deliver... Angels, Rams, Livebearers, Rainbows... no problem.

I have had a few gravid specie that do not deliver... sorted. No more injection - they have not only 'dropped' but matured as breeding parents as well.

[Wetpets]

So...

I plan to film my next injection (I do not know when that will be), and post in the BREEDING thread. And the parents afterwards.

Non-affiliated-drugs-in-my-fridge-fish-breeder....

[Gemini]

Note: I am with all of you, but feel at a loss with argument as you have not used/experienced the product (or anything like it). I need to (commercially) deliver... Angels, Rams, Livebearers, Rainbows... no problem.
.
I guess this is the sort of forum where commercial profitability doesn't really factor into it for most of us.

[bigbad-ratman]

i say go for it!!! if it lessens the strain on wild life, it cant be all bad. also, would we wanna just jump into using a substance on an endagered or threatened species? it would be smart to start somewhere else. :hmm3grin2orange: what better way to test something than against a plentiful species, that has known requirements/cycles/paameters/you get my drift. i might be too middle of the road for most people, but i do accept that is there is a time and place for almost everything we could discuss.

[Wetpets]

Hmmmmmmmm.
Question
- what impact does it have on the fry being able to breed? Do they then need to be injeccted to breed?

I can see the benefit as Will said for endangered species. Other than that I'm not a fan.

Hmmmmmmm to you too.

What if Arowana did NOT have a breeding season during your ownership of the/it? Do you think yours (if bought through import) was natually-bred? Have you bred Arowana? Bet you I could... Just can't afford a mature Arowana (pure-bred) at this stage... in $terms, around $700 per fish, and $2000 for a ready-breeding pair! (in SA)

True!

[Kaz]

Sorry, I still agree that you should use itI just wanted to add that in.

[Wetpets]

I guess this is the sort of forum where commercial profitability doesn't really factor into it for most of us.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

You make a wide assumption that I don't know and care for individuals - I mean to keep every one. I have an emotional attachment to each and EVERY fish I sell - I know this is difficult to understand commercially, but think of your home tank (just assuming here)... you know your fish. I make sure that mine go to good LFS's. There are three I DO NOT sell to - because I'm not confident they can care for "my children"... I know them (not by name - That would take ages - but by nature). Ask my suppliers! LOL

Factor that in...

PS: with kind regards...

[Wetpets]

i say go for it!!! if it lessens the strain on wild life, it cant be all bad. also, would we wanna just jump into using a substance on an endagered or threatened species? it would be smart to start somewhere else. :hmm3grin2orange: what better way to test something than against a plentiful species, that has known requirements/cycles/paameters/you get my drift. i might be too middle of the road for most people, but i do accept that is there is a time and place for almost everything we could discuss.

+2 Me
-1 Forum

[Wild Turkey]

Wetpets, since the topic suggests you are looking for opinions, im wondering why you are bashing all of those that disagree with you?

If you really want to succeed in the business perhaps you should be treating potential customers and their opinions with more concern and respect. The great thing about ac is the members and their specialties vary incredibly. I think that because of this AC is quite representative of hobby dorks as a whole:hmm3grin2orange: Which is something to consider.

I can say though, and i hope you consider this: That even If I were going to purchase fish from you/your company I would reconsider if I saw this was how you responded to criticism.

There is no reason to bash users, and if you re read Gem's post I think you will find that she said nothing about you in the quote, but rather about "us" at AC.

[Gemini]

Sorry, but you are wrong.

You make a wide assumption that I don't know and care for individuals - I mean to keep every one. I have an emotional attachment to each and EVERY fish I sell - I know this is difficult to understand commercially, but think of your home tank (just assuming here)... you know your fish. I make sure that mine go to good LFS's. There are three I DO NOT sell to - because I'm not confident they can care for "my children"... I know them (not by name - That would take ages - but by nature). Ask my suppliers! LOL

Factor that in...

PS: with kind regards...
Well I'm not wrong. I know that on this forum, the majority are hobby fishkeepers. We have a day job we go to to support our hobby. I dont' care about commercial profit!!!!
Re read my posts - I have never said you dont' care about your fish. My hmmmmm is a thought comment. Sorry it seems to have gotten your goat!
As for asking your suppliers - I could care less what they have to say! And I'm not keen on making IDD calls to find out!

+2 Me
-1 Forum

Interesting....

[jaysee]

Wetpets, since the topic suggests you are looking for opinions, im wondering why you are bashing all of those that disagree with you?

I think he's practicing for some big presentation or something.


I'm one of the few here who likes what you're doing, but I must say I don't like how you are going about it here. It's evident to me now that you've come looking for a fight. Do us all a favor and don't ask for our opinions next time.

[Wetpets]

I guess this is the sort of forum where commercial profitability doesn't really factor into it for most of us.

Hi Gem...

As Wild Turkey (much respect already) put it to me that I may have come across as "bashing" I really do apologise (with an "s" because that's how we spell it?).

I guess that I may have been a bit over-the-top in my reply. I simply assumed that you may have not encounyered a hormone birthing therapy before. And if you did, you (like me) probably greeted it with no small amount of sucpision. Anyways, it works for me, which is all I'm trying to get across.

And WD... I hope when I do get to export stage, you will back me. I have nature at heart, even though I'm taking extreme measures now ( did I mention my brother and I are the protectors of Hippocampus capansis?)

Anyways, apologies. Just trying to help. If I wasn't I'd not be posting / so active on this forum.

Cheers.

[Wetpets]

It's evident to me now that you've come looking for a fight. Do us all a favor and don't ask for our opinions next time.

Sorry. I'm still getting to know the 'tone' of the forum. I'm not here for that at all. I see that I'm in the company of friends...

Again, apologies. My reaction was a bit too "reactionary"

This is a great forum, and different to others I have experienced.

Apologies accepted?

[Algenco]

I've read about the hormone and have no problem with it being used to induce spawning of endangered fish or species that are difficult at best to spawn in captivity, and could take a lot of pressure off wild stocks.
Using it on fish that don't need it would be cost prohibitive and unnecessary.

This is not the same stuff that's used to accelerate maturity of fish such as Rams.

[jaysee]

Keeping score put me over the edge.

It's wise to expect resistance over a controversial issue. It's also wise not to try and overpower said resistance, here or anywhere. Baby steps - incramentalism. Argue points that the opposition cannot deny. Get them to agree to some things before you bring out the big guns. That's how you convert people and win them to your point of view.

Apology accepted.

[Wetpets]

This is not the same stuff that's used to accelerate maturity of fish such as Rams.

I do not subscribe to the idea of growth / health hormones. The one I use has a 10 hour life in the organism for breeding (relese of eggs and milt) and is virtually dissapated after 50 hours. After that... it's all natural baby!

[Wetpets]

Keeping score put me over the edge.

It's wise to expect resistance over a controversial issue. It's also wise not to try and overpower said resistance, here or anywhere. Baby steps - incramentalism. Argue points that the opposition cannot deny. Get them to agree to some things before you bring out the big guns. That's how you convert people and win them to your point of view.

Apology accepted.

Thanks.

( my message was "too short" so I put this in brackets)

Seriousy, I don't want to be the @#$%ole of the forum just three days in. I have a lot to learn, but a lot to share too.

[jackson17]

What is the name of this product? I didn't even know they made this type of stuff.

[Anomaly]

Thanks.

( my message was "too short" so I put this in brackets)

Seriousy, I don't want to be the @#$%ole of the forum just three days in. I have a lot to learn, but a lot to share too.


You're going about this the wrong way, and you've done nothing but weaken your argument by the very defensive stance that you've taken. You must remember, attitude can play a large part in helping someone see the points you're trying to make here. And to get defensive and dismissive instead of addressing the dissenting point of view in a mature way is far from helpful for you.

[Northernguy]

For the last few years there has been a lot of Neons,guppys,gouramis... that have been considered to be of weak strains.
They get sick easier and die for no apparent causes.Could this be a result?
I know some of it is bad fish keeping but the numbers have risen large.It can't all be from the fish keepers.
I am not trying to get you riled up. lol
Its just a question.

[jaysee]

Thanks.

( my message was "too short" so I put this in brackets)

Seriousy, I don't want to be the @#$%ole of the forum just three days in. I have a lot to learn, but a lot to share too.

ah .

[robflanker]

William summed up my thoughts.

I am against forcing things to breed unless we have driven them to the point of extinction.

By forcing something to breed when it doesn't naturally, or goes to slow for our liking is IMO inappropriate.

We should not be pushing the genetic drift of any species in a direction just because it suits us, and helps us make $$. If it is to preserve the species, then I am in favour. But convinience and profitability? No thank you

[jaysee]

If you want to make a short reply like that, put in a bunch of spaces before a period.

[Wetpets]

For the last few years there has been a lot of Neons,guppys,gouramis... that have been considered to be of weak strains.
They get sick easier and die for no apparent causes.Could this be a result?
I know some of it is bad fish keeping but the numbers have risen large.It can't all be from the fish keepers.
I am not trying to get you riled up. lol
Its just a question.

Bad judgement on my part. I'm here for the long haul. The badge means little to me.

Signed: W. P. Guppy

[jaysee]

Signed: W. P. Guppy

Don't look now, but you're a mollythumbs2:

[Wetpets]

...attitude can play a large part in helping someone see the points you're trying to make here. And to get defensive and dismissive instead of addressing the dissenting point of view in a mature way is far from helpful for you...

Point taken. This forum is different from others. I'll still be opinionated (is that defensive and dismissive?), although more constructively.

PS: most of what I have learned is from AC and passive viewing of this forum.

[Wetpets]

Don't look now, but you're a mollythumbs2:

LOL........

[Wetpets]

What is the name of this product? I didn't even know they made this type of stuff.

It's AquaSpawn, a globally-used synthetic hormone. See [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] (products page)

Round about $22

[Algenco]

For the last few years there has been a lot of Neons,guppys,gouramis... that have been considered to be of weak strains.
They get sick easier and die for no apparent causes.Could this be a result?
I know some of it is bad fish keeping but the numbers have risen large.It can't all be from the fish keepers.
I am not trying to get you riled up. lol
Its just a question.


no, if hormones use is affecting those fish it's a totally different type.
I don't think hormones of any type are causing the problems you mentioned, Neons for example are 99% wild caught.
The problems are primarily caused by shipping long distance, most aquarium fish that aren't wild caught come from Asia, rising shipping cost have resulted in more fish per box, you would be shocked at the mortality rate

[Gemini]

Well you have certainly prompted me into doing some reading/research. And that is never a bad thing!!!

[Anomaly]

Point taken. This forum is different from others. I'll still be opinionated (is that defensive and dismissive?), although more constructively.

PS: most of what I have learned is from AC and passive viewing of this forum.

Excellent . . . voicing your opinions in a constructive way will get you much farther.

With that being said, I see no problem in what you're doing as long as it's done responsibly, especially if it will help ease the strain on the wild populations being caught for the aquarium trade. The last thing I think any of us would want to see is the fish we so love to keep in aquariums disappear or have their populations severely reduced in their native habitat due to our hobby.

[Wetpets]

no, if hormones use is affecting those fish it's a totally different type.
I don't think hormones of any type are causing the problems you mentioned, Neons for example are 99% wild caught.
The problems are primarily caused by shipping long distance, most aquarium fish that aren't wild caught come from Asia, rising shipping cost have resulted in more fish per box, you would be shocked at the mortality rate

I happen to know the mortality rate (reported) in SA. Around 74%. That's a loss of 7-8 fish per 10 that make it to a home aquarium (Source FAO). I am busy with A prof. designing an incubator for small eggs (neons, etc) that can be comercially produced. If we (or anyone) can breed and rear neons locally, the mortality would come down a hell of a lot.

[Crispy]

do what you gotta do wetpets.... we rarely know where our fish come from these days anyways... hormones or not, at least some r&d is being done in fish breeding research... maybe all those "rare" species won't be so rare soon enuff.

[Gayle]

Yeah I will never use a hormone to get my fish to breed, because they breed to often as it is with out the help. I have given away sooooooooo many fry.

I guess if I were to breed for profit it would be different. Or if I kept fish that did not get in the mood every five minutes.

When a woman wants a baby, and has trouble conciving, or does not wish to have a man involved, they use hormones. Many people spend a small fortune every year on hormones for all sorts of reasons. So pretty much what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

I do not agree that hormones should be used to make them breed for profit, but that is just my opinion. I would not do it, but I also have no right to say that someone else should not. I am not a breeder, nor do I have the desire to be.

I can say that when they are given ideal situations they usually do it on their own. And I can say that I have seen horrible problems from forced breeding to single out certain genetic qualities. And death caused by too many pregnacies for profit purposes. (Just look at puppy mills)

As well as horrible problems from inbreeding, and poor care. I have also seen situations where some animals that have not been bred enough and have gone on the red list, and must have hormones and care for the young just to keep the species around. (Look at the beautiful Iberian Lynx)

We have made a mess of the natural environment. No one can say otherwise!!! We do in fact need to take less out of the wild and breed more in captivity. They may just disappear without it. That goes for way more than just fish!

So really I think we all have our views, and that is fine, we can share our opinions, like I just did, and not judge someone else for theirs. If we all were the exact same, life would be rather dull.

And I am now stepping down from my soapbox.
LOL

[Cermet]

I agree with most of the posts - reducing the number of fish being killed from the wild (due to capture methods) is a good thing. Issue is with inbreeding and the need for some wild stock to avoid illnesses. Still, injecting small fish without harm sounds very hard. Not sure I could ever do that.

[fish00053]

How's it work on humans????:hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange: :19:

[LurkingGrue]

... my mission is to breed wild-caught stock to the point where I / the industry can shut down the wild capture of sensitive specie(s).

I'm hip to your methods for this reason . I harbor some pretty hippy beliefs, including purchasing and consuming only organic food, so it seems somewhat ironic that I'd endorse a method of pet animal production that I wouldn't endorse for food animal production . :sconfused:

But let's take a step back for a minute . The best thing for any species of animal is to be left alone to thrive in the wild . Excepting cases where a habit is destroyed and the wild population of a given species is taken for preservation and captive breeding until they can be re-introduced into the wild, there is virtually no scenario where-in our keeping, and breeding, of aquatic animals is in their best interests . So its sort of a given that no hobbyist doesn't at some point sacrifice what's in the best interests of the animals to pursue their hobby .
So let's not pretend there's some perfectly natural and harmonious way to go about doing any of this . :sconfused:

That said, in my mind it becomes a question of pursuing fish keeping while minimizing any negative impact . Clearly someone with the patience and understanding of proper husbandry can provide a very healthful habitat for the individual organisms in their care . And they can be given a good diet and live free from disease or threat of predation . But there's still the question of the negative impact at the beginning of the supply chain that even responsible fish keeping produces .
Collection of wild specimens seems the foremost of these supply concerns to me . And there's generally no way to verify that the fish in your local store were harvested in any sustainable way .

So if, by the application of a synthetic hormone, we can sustain captive populations of fish and nearly eliminate wild-caught specimens, I find it very hard to argue that the gross impact is anything but beneficial . Especially if the treatment doesn't cause mortality or other immediate harm, as you've said . :ssmile:

Also, aside from differentiating only between wild-caught and captive-bred livestock, we could also grade the responsibility of individual breeders . As you've said and I've witnessed, the methods and mindsets of many commercial breeders, especially outside the US, borders on the truly unsettling . If you can provide an alternative that is better for the animals and that originates more locally, I say hat's off to you .. keep it up . :shappy:

Edit: Holy crap I just realized this thread has been dredged up from the way way back . o.O