Sigh. Source of ammonia while I am away for fishless cycling

[angc84]

Hi guys...

Sooooo....I set up my new 12g and I couldn't wait to start the fishless cycle...it's a horrible decision since I am going away for a week next week. I added a filter floss media from my established tank as well as ACS grade ammonium hydroxide to get the ammonia level to ~5ppm...and I will continue to keep the ammonia level to ~5ppm in the next four days...However, I will be gone all week next week and I am thinking of a way to provide the bacteria with sufficient ammonia.

I was thinking...if I put a bag full of fish food in a nylon bag before I leave...would the fish food breaks down fast enough to provide sufficient ammonia?

I am a dumbass for not waiting to start the cycle when I get back...but it was so hard to resist!!

ANY advices would be sincerely appreciated...

A.

[fraggle]

I know people who've used fish food to cycle, or prawns too (they stuck the prawn inside the filter, not just in the tank, but that was for a "smelling" reason,:ssuprised: ). As long as there is something to break down to ammonia it should work.

At least it's a week your not going to be sitting there watching the tank (which seems to make it cycle slower:hmm3grin2orange: ) waiting for it to cycle! LOL

[angc84]

At least it's a week your not going to be sitting there watching the tank (which seems to make it cycle slower:hmm3grin2orange: ) waiting for it to cycle! LOL



LOL good point!!

I guess I'd have to stick to the fish food method...somehow...unless I find a way to "drip" ammonia into the tank automatically...

*scratching my head*

[PostalPenguin]

Add the food or whatever you decide a day or two before you leave. This will allow it to start breaking down so its producing ammonia when you go to leave.

[angc84]

Add the food or whatever you decide a day or two before you leave. This will allow it to start breaking down so its producing ammonia when you go to leave.


Thanks...

Do you have any idea how much food I should add? I was thinking of putting it in a nylon bag sold at petco...but the holes seem to be bigger than nylon stocking. I was wondering if pantyhose is safe to use? I mean, would it contain dye that's not safe for aquarium?

[PostalPenguin]

Pantyhose is safe, many people on here use it to cover the intakes of their filters to keep fry and shrimp from being sucked up. I have no idea on how much to add, perhaps someone here can help.

[bushwhacker]

if you added a fair amount of seeded media to the filter.. why didnt you just add fish? you had the cycle already.

[angc84]

if you added a fair amount of seeded media to the filter.. why didnt you just add fish? you had the cycle already.


I suppose...but it's meant for a dwarf puffer fish tank...and I don't feel good about adding them and leaving for a week. I suppose I can add my platies temporarily to the tank...but I still want to complete the fishless cycle as long as I could. I don't want to induce unnecessary stress to the platies, making them switching tanks so frequently.

[angc84]

Pantyhose is safe, many people on here use it to cover the intakes of their filters to keep fry and shrimp from being sucked up. I have no idea on how much to add, perhaps someone here can help.


Thanks! I always use the sponge around intake method because I was afriad of pantyhose containing harmful dye.

[bushwhacker]

I suppose...but it's meant for a dwarf puffer fish tank...and I don't feel good about adding them and leaving for a week. I suppose I can add my platies temporarily to the tank...but I still want to complete the fishless cycle as long as I could. I don't want to induce unnecessary stress to the platies, making them switching tanks so frequently.

we are looking at this from 2 diff perspectives here , first off if you added seeded media the filter is cycled. stock slowly and your done. your not cycling a tank, your cycling the filter.. adding ammonia to that level to me will kill off the bacteria that are already in the media that you placed in there. just my opinion and experiance
bush

[angc84]

we are looking at this from 2 diff perspectives here , first off if you added seeded media the filter is cycled. stock slowly and your done. your not cycling a tank, your cycling the filter.. adding ammonia to that level to me will kill off the bacteria that are already in the media that you placed in there. just my opinion and experiance
bush


Thank you very much for your input!
The way I see it is I'd like to establish a larger bacteria colony before I feel comfortable adding fish in the tank. Because...

1. It will be an all puffer tank. I will be adding all 3 dwarf puffers at once to reduce possible territorial aggression.
2. Even if it's fine to add them slowly (one every other week or so), I still don't feel comfortable adding one before I go on my vacation, since no one will be around to monitor it. From what I know, they are a very sensitive specie.
3. I did not add the biological filter media to my new tank. I simply added the mechanical filter media to seed. I cannot imagine the filter media containing large enough of a colony to support the bioload of three dwarf puffers.
4. Exactly, I am cycling the "filter" and not the tank, therefore, I'd like to have the bacteria settle in the biomax before adding fish. It would take some time for the bacteria to settle in.
5. I cannot imagine the ammonia killing off the bacteria...5ppm is what most fishless cycle article suggested.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I am new to fish-keeping and I'd like to do things right. =)

[Wetpets]

Trizyme Biostart from Interpet, or Filter Start from Interpet. I swear by both. A cheap and effective way of instant cycling which I use over and over. With my 60+ tanks I find I have to move and set up frequently and these products are amazing. Add water, get to temp, add trizyme, add fish. Presto. Never lost a fish this way... You do have to monitor over the first week and occasionally I have had to add more trizyme...

[Wild Turkey]

Yes you have the right idea.

Its much preferable to do a fishless and seed instead of just seeding when you are dealing with only sensitive fish for the tank.

In some instances, people pay thousands, tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single fish. Its not far fetched to wish for those fish to never see .1ppm of ammonia or nitrite, since they are such an expensive investment.


Trizyme Biostart from Interpet, or Filter Start from Interpet. I swear by both. A cheap and effective way of instant cycling which I use over and over. With my 60+ tanks I find I have to move and set up frequently and these products are amazing.

So...what is your affiliation with interpet...? :spam:

Once one tank is established, there is generally no need to use bacteria cultures for subsequent tanks, as the users have discussed on this thread above. Purchasing 60 tanks worth of bacteria culture would be incredibly costly, and of course not needed.

[Lady Hobbs]

Add some raw fish or raw shrimp to a piece of nylon and sink it to the bottom of the tank with a rock while you are gone.

[angc84]

Trizyme Biostart from Interpet, or Filter Start from Interpet. I swear by both. A cheap and effective way of instant cycling which I use over and over. With my 60+ tanks I find I have to move and set up frequently and these products are amazing. Add water, get to temp, add trizyme, add fish. Presto. Never lost a fish this way... You do have to monitor over the first week and occasionally I have had to add more trizyme...


I personally do not trust those bacteria in a bottle. Thank you for your advice.

[angc84]

Yes you have the right idea.

Its much preferable to do a fishless and seed instead of just seeding when you are dealing with only sensitive fish for the tank.

In some instances, people pay thousands, tens, even hundreds of thousands of dollars for a single fish. Its not far fetched to wish for those fish to never see .1ppm of ammonia or nitrite, since they are such an expensive investment.




Exactly...I want to make sure the colony is established completely.

[angc84]

Add some raw fish or raw shrimp to a piece of nylon and sink it to the bottom of the tank with a rock while you are gone.


Thank you LH...but I don't feel very comfortable putting in raw human food in my fish tank...does it work better than fish food? What about a LOT of fish food? =D

[Wild Turkey]

Thank you LH...but I don't feel very comfortable putting in raw human food in my fish tank...does it work better than fish food? What about a LOT of fish food? =D

The upside to using prawns or shrimp/what have you is you can bag it up so it makes a lot less of a mess, cant really do that with fish food.

Foods manufactured for you to ingest are much more thoroughly scrutinized for health risks than fish foods, so theres not a good chance of any disease or anything coming in with it, but if you are really concerned you can cook the shrimp or prawns first and that will kill anything

[angc84]

The upside to using prawns or shrimp/what have you is you can bag it up so it makes a lot less of a mess, cant really do that with fish food.

Foods manufactured for you to ingest are much more thoroughly scrutinized for health risks than fish foods, so theres not a good chance of any disease or anything coming in with it, but if you are really concerned you can cook the shrimp or prawns first and that will kill anything


But raw frozen shrimp is not suitable for human comsumption either. =( I suppose I can cook them...but would they still release sufficient ammonia?

I was planning on bagging the fish food as well.

[Wild Turkey]

But raw frozen shrimp is not suitable for human comsumption either. =( I suppose I can cook them...but would they still release sufficient ammonia?

I was planning on bagging the fish food as well.

If anything I suspect cooking them will make them decay faster so it would produce ammonia faster.

Some people use just the discarded prawn shells, I guess because they have enough meat on them to do the job.

I think if you bag up the fish food when you go to remove it will go everywhere, but thats not to say it wont happen a little bit the prawns too. Keep in mind this is an old method and the number one reason people dont use it is because its messy, and smelly. lol Just be ready to deal with the cleanup

[angc84]

If anything I suspect cooking them will make them decay faster so it would produce ammonia faster.

Some people use just the discarded prawn shells, I guess because they have enough meat on them to do the job.

I think if you bag up the fish food when you go to remove it will go everywhere, but thats not to say it wont happen a little bit the prawns too. Keep in mind this is an old method and the number one reason people dont use it is because its messy, and smelly. lol Just be ready to deal with the cleanup


Ahhh I guess it's part of the learning process...
Maybe I will simply dump the biomax in my established 12g while I am gone, and restart the cycle when I get back...

[Wild Turkey]

Ahhh I guess it's part of the learning process...
Maybe I will simply dump the biomax in my established 12g while I am gone, and restart the cycle when I get back...

What may help you not completely start over is instead of moving the media over while you are gone, just move the whole filter over and run it on the 12g as well if you can, then move it back when you return. You will have all the pieces seeded this way, not just the biomax

[angc84]

What may help you not completely start over is instead of moving the media over while you are gone, just move the whole filter over and run it on the 12g as well if you can, then move it back when you return. You will have all the pieces seeded this way, not just the biomax


Haha...I wish I could do that...but my old 12g doesn't have enough space in the back for two filters (blocked by plastic parts of the hood). Also, I'd be worried about a mini cycle in the old 12g if I do that...no?

[Wetpets]

I personally do not trust those bacteria in a bottle. Thank you for your advice.

Sorry...

To make myself clear:

I use these products in emergencies, and they have worked a charm. I do keep a rotational shedule of both box filters and internal powerheads going at all times and use waste water (60%) and new aged water (40%) for new tanks without a problem. I have as many as 20 bacterially mature filters running spare at any one time. I use Trizyme (no affiliation - wish I did, it's expensive!) for on-the-fly incubators, new fish (I run a fish rescue programme in my town, taking on sick and unwanted fish) and unexpected births of livebearers. And I have not been let down yet... in fact two of the five LFS's I supply now use and stock the product because of my advice.

ngc84, have you tried any of the products?

Warm regards,
WP

[jaysee]

LOL good point!!

I guess I'd have to stick to the fish food method...somehow...unless I find a way to "drip" ammonia into the tank automatically...

*scratching my head*

How about an automatic feeder? It'll also come in handy next time when you have fish.

For what it's worth, the bacterial additives worked extremely well for me, and if I didn't have a plethora of used media, I would do new tanks that way.

That's great that you want a super strong bacterial colony before you start, but I think you are waaaaaaay underestimating the growth rate of an established colony (used media).

[Wetpets]

...I think you are waaaaaaay underestimating the growth rate of an established colony (used media).

+1.

It does work, especially with used water (or wastewater) from running tanks.

[Wild Turkey]

That's great that you want a super strong bacterial colony before you start, but I think you are waaaaaaay underestimating the growth rate of an established colony (used media).

Major agree!



It does work, especially with used water (or wastewater) from running tanks.

Disagree, introducing used tank water to a new tank in order to seed it is pointless. You are only introducing excess nitrates, and possible disease. The bacteria is not in the water, but in your filter. The chances seeding anything with waste water are extremely low.

[angc84]

Sorry...

To make myself clear:

I use these products in emergencies, and they have worked a charm. I do keep a rotational shedule of both box filters and internal powerheads going at all times and use waste water (60%) and new aged water (40%) for new tanks without a problem. I have as many as 20 bacterially mature filters running spare at any one time. I use Trizyme (no affiliation - wish I did, it's expensive!) for on-the-fly incubators, new fish (I run a fish rescue programme in my town, taking on sick and unwanted fish) and unexpected births of livebearers. And I have not been let down yet... in fact two of the five LFS's I supply now use and stock the product because of my advice.

ngc84, have you tried any of the products?

Warm regards,
WP



Hi,
I have tried stress-zyme, but I have never did an experiment thorough enough to tell you if it made a difference or not. The opinions on those bacteria additives vary on the internet, and I have chosen not to rely on them.
Thank you for your advice and I truly respect your opinions.
A.

[angc84]

How about an automatic feeder? It'll also come in handy next time when you have fish.

I have been thinking about using an automatic feeder as well! I just don't know exactly how much food is needed....roar. =)

For what it's worth, the bacterial additives worked extremely well for me, and if I didn't have a plethora of used media, I would do new tanks that way.

Again, I am glad you have positive experiences with the additives and I respect your opinions.

That's great that you want a super strong bacterial colony before you start, but I think you are waaaaaaay underestimating the growth rate of an established colony (used media).

Hehe. Underestimating or not, I have decided to be safe than sorry. I mean, sometimes it take people up to 4-6 weeks to cycle! I wish there were some sort of fluorescent stain I can add to visualize the nitrifying bacteria...I'd culture them in lab if I could speed it up!!

Thank you anyhow for your positive feedback.

[jaysee]

I have been thinking about using an automatic feeder as well! I just don't know exactly how much food is needed....roar. =)

Hehe. Underestimating or not, I have decided to be safe than sorry. I mean, sometimes it take people up to 4-6 weeks to cycle! I wish there were some sort of fluorescent stain I can add to visualize the nitrifying bacteria...I'd culture them in lab if I could speed it up!!

Thank you anyhow for your positive feedback.

The automatic feeder is for the ammonia! I think some are capable of delivering liquids.

It takes 4-6 weeks for the bacteria to colonize from scratch (fishless), but an established colony (used media) is all poised and ready for explosive growth and will colonize your new media in a matter of DAYS. I have used this method for 12 of my 13 tanks - Run the filter with the new media for a day, then I add fish and used media at the same time. I've NEVER lost a fish doing this, nor have I EVER had an ammonia spike greater than 0.05ppm (which is naturally corrected within several hours) with this method.

I know this isn't the first time I've told you this, but I promise it'll be the last :ssmile: because it's your fish tank, and you can do whatever you like with it. Good luck with the puffers! Can't wait to get one myself.

[angc84]

The automatic feeder is for the ammonia! I think some are capable of delivering liquids.

It takes 4-6 weeks for the bacteria to colonize from scratch (fishless), but an established colony (used media) is all poised and ready for explosive growth and will colonize your new media in a matter of DAYS. I have used this method for 12 of my 13 tanks - Run the filter with the new media for a day, then I add fish and used media at the same time. I've NEVER lost a fish doing this, nor have I EVER had an ammonia spike greater than 0.05ppm (which is naturally corrected within several hours) with this method.

I know this isn't the first time I've told you this, but I promise it'll be the last :ssmile: because it's your fish tank, and you can do whatever you like with it. Good luck with the puffers! Can't wait to get one myself.


Oooh. I thought you meant the auto feeder can deliver amount of flakes needed for decaying. Hehe.

I understand your point of view...I suppose I can reseed my filter when I get back. Bottom line is, I don't want to add dwarf puffers in the tank right before I leave...I consider that the safest thing to do. =)

Going back to work!

[jaysee]

I understand your point of view...I suppose I can reseed my filter when I get back. Bottom line is, I don't want to add dwarf puffers in the tank right before I leave...I consider that the safest thing to do. =)

Going back to work!

You're absolutely right about that! I personally wouldn't add any new fish within a month of leaving.

[jackson17]

Not sure exactly what filter you have but I'm assuming it has a sponge and some other type of thing. Why not float the sponge in your other tank and sink the other part (I'm assuming its some kind of bio-bag type of thing). Attach it to a piece of decor by a string. Keep your cycle going while your gone, then when you get back you can keep going with the fishless cycle. At least some, if not most of your bacteria will be saved.

[jaysee]

Not sure exactly what filter you have but I'm assuming it has a sponge and some other type of thing. Why not float the sponge in your other tank and sink the other part (I'm assuming its some kind of bio-bag type of thing). Attach it to a piece of decor by a string. Keep your cycle going while your gone, then when you get back you can keep going with the fishless cycle. At least some, if not most of your bacteria will be saved.

The biological filter will not be effective submerged in the tank like that (or floating). It needs the highly oxygenated water in the filter and the concentrated waterflow in order to be effective.

[rich311k]

I think a handful of dried krill or tubifex cubes will give all the ammonia your tanks needs while you are away.

[Wetpets]

Disagree, introducing used tank water to a new tank in order to seed it is pointless. You are only introducing excess nitrates, and possible disease. The bacteria is not in the water, but in your filter. The chances seeding anything with waste water are extremely low.

I meant in conjunction with a mature filter(s) so the bacterial load has 'food'. Agree about seeding with waste water.

[angc84]

You're absolutely right about that! I personally wouldn't add any new fish within a month of leaving.

Hehe. Thanks! I was my fault to start the cycling early...I'd hate to let my fish suffer what my impatience.

Thank you very much for all the advices!

[angc84]

Not sure exactly what filter you have but I'm assuming it has a sponge and some other type of thing. Why not float the sponge in your other tank and sink the other part (I'm assuming its some kind of bio-bag type of thing). Attach it to a piece of decor by a string. Keep your cycle going while your gone, then when you get back you can keep going with the fishless cycle. At least some, if not most of your bacteria will be saved.


I am using a AC 30. It might be a great idea! I should put my biomax bag right on top of my airstone in my established 12g while I am gone...haha.

[jaysee]

I meant in conjunction with a mature filter(s) so the bacterial load has 'food'. Agree about seeding with waste water.

Well, ideally, the used water does not contain any "food" because the water parameters should be 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.

[angc84]

I think a handful of dried krill or tubifex cubes will give all the ammonia your tanks needs while you are away.


Ahh...I have half an 1 once bottle of tetra flakes that I've had since February and have stopped feeding them to my fish two months ago. I was thinking of using all of that!! Would that be too much?!

[Wild Turkey]

Well, ideally, the used water does not contain any "food" because the water parameters should be 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites.

Ed Zacherythumbs2:

[jaysee]

Ahh...I have half an 1 once bottle of tetra flakes that I've had since February and have stopped feeding them to my fish two months ago. I was thinking of using all of that!! Would that be too much?!

Here's the big question....where in the cycle are you currently and how long till you leave?

[angc84]

Here's the big question....where in the cycle are you currently and how long till you leave?

Yesterday was the first day of my cycle....I added ammonium hydroxide to reach a reading of 5ppm, following the Chris Cow method. I just got back home tonight and ammonia reading is 2ppm, with 0 nitrite. I am a little lazy on the nitrate test but I'll do it tomorrow. Why does it have to be such a pain to test nitrate? =(

I also bumped up the temperature to 84.

I will be leaving on Sunday morning.

[jaysee]

Yesterday was the first day of my cycle....I added ammonium hydroxide to reach a reading of 5ppm, following the Chris Cow method. I just got back home tonight and ammonia reading is 2ppm, with 0 nitrite. I am a little lazy on the nitrate test but I'll do it tomorrow. Why does it have to be such a pain to test nitrate? =(

I also bumped up the temperature to 84.

You don't need to test for nitrate. You'll know the cycle is complete by the absense of ammonia and nitrite.

When do you leave?

[angc84]

You don't need to test for nitrate. You'll know the cycle is complete by the absense of ammonia and nitrite.

When do you leave?

That's what I thought...and results in my laziness regarding testing for nitrate.

I am leaving on Sunday, which is three and a half day away.

Thank you JS

[MonkeyPox]

You don't need to test for nitrate. You'll know the cycle is complete by the absense of ammonia and nitrite.

When do you leave?

You don't need to test for nitrate yet

Start looking for nitrates after your ammonia is 0 and you see a spike in nitrites.

[angc84]

You don't need to test for nitrate yet

Start looking for nitrates after your ammonia is 0 and you see a spike in nitrites.


Yes...the only reason I am not checking for nitrate is because I barely started the cycle yesterday...I'd be shocked if a significant amount of nitrate is present.

However, it's quite perplexing to me that my ammonia level is decreasing...and my nitrite is 0...so where did the ammonia go? I guess I will do a nitrate test after all...

[Wild Turkey]

Yes...the only reason I am not checking for nitrate is because I barely started the cycle yesterday...I'd be shocked if a significant amount of nitrate is present.

However, it's quite perplexing to me that my ammonia level is decreasing...and my nitrite is 0...so where did the ammonia go? I guess I will do a nitrate test after all...

Actually, this seems to happen a lot with seeded media. Seems your nitrobacter is good for the nitrites produced but your nitrosomonas is still catching up to the ammonia added.

[angc84]

Actually, this seems to happen a lot with seeded media. Seems your nitrobacter is good for the nitrites produced but your nitrosomonas is still catching up to the ammonia added.


Heh..that's what I was hoping for...but the nitrate test came back 0 and my little dream was shattered....maybe the ammonia simply evaporated...

[jaysee]

If you're leaving in three days, you might as well just wait till you get back.

[Wild Turkey]

The ammonia didnt evaporate, it was was used. Not seeing substantial nitrate readings after only having processed a few ppm of ammonia is totally normal.

I agree with jc probably just better to wait until you get back but its up to you.