First things first

[Niku-M]

Okay, I'm new to this forum and at this moment I don't own any fish. The only experience I have with handeling aquariums is the aquarium my sister had quite some years ago which I sometimes took care of when she wasn't around. As I remember the tank had some schooling fish (small and light-coloured with a black stripe) and a very shy suckermouth fish, all of the fish eventually died from a malfunctioning heater :(. This aquarium I'm talking about is still at my parents house, and I suppose it's about 60x30x30 cm, could someone tell me what type of standard tank size that probably is? I haven't yet asked my sister if I can use that tank but financially it could be nice because there's still some equipment left.

Anyways, enough history... even if I can't use that tank I'll buy a similar one or one that is a bit larger. I've flashed through some books in the library and read quite some stuff on the internet about tropical fish and aquariums to see what kind of aquarium and what type of fish I would like to have. I'm thinking about creating a biotope, and some specific fish I liked seemed to be from asia, so I'll maybe stick with that one.

Some fish that I like:
Kuhli loaches, Glass catfish, Gouramis/Betta, Danios, Rainbowfish, Rasboras.

Now some of the questions that I have are:
-For such an aquarium, what kind of substrate should I get? I generally for the whole aquarium prefer the combination of black/green/white(light) and I think sand looks a lot more natural. And I think most tropical Asian riverbeds/ponds have sand on the ground, so the fish might enjoy it. So I was thinking to get dark backgrounds and some dark decoration together with some light sand (would a dark background and dark sand look strange together?).
-In a small tank such as I described, what would be a good setup? Would it be possible to keep two kinds of schooling fish? (for example the glass catfish together with some danios or rasboras?).
-Ok this may seem to be a strange question, but are tropical fish in a tank like this agitated by music in the same room? I'm a student of music so I practice alot in my room, I wonder if the fish would notice the vibrations and get all stressed out.
-And the most obvious question: With the fish I like and the biotope I described, which fish and which plants would not be too hard to care for. Also, I'm wondering what kind of stock I want to end up with. I realy love the kuhlii loaches so I was thinking a small group of those, then 1 or two schools and as a final addition one or a pair of gouramis?

-I almost forgot this, I would also like to have some non-fish creatures in my aquarium, maybe shrimp are a good option? What kind of shrimp could I keep with my fish?

Please let me know what you think

[Willyleigh]

Now some of the questions that I have are:
-For such an aquarium, what kind of substrate should I get? I generally for the whole aquarium prefer the combination of black/green/white(light) and I think sand looks a lot more natural. And I think most tropical Asian riverbeds/ponds have sand on the ground, so the fish might enjoy it. So I was thinking to get dark backgrounds and some dark decoration together with some light sand (would a dark background and dark sand look strange together?).

if you are planning on getting live plants sand is not a good Idea, and I suggest getting dark sand as unless I vaccuum my sand twice a day I get a lot of poo building up on the bottom which is very visible and not pleasant, I am thinking of putting gravel over the top of my sand.

-In a small tank such as I described, what would be a good setup? Would it be possible to keep two kinds of schooling fish? (for example the glass catfish together with some danios or rasboras?).

The tank that you mentioned as 60x30x30 centimetres would have a volume of 54 litres, This would be enough to have a small shoal of both Danios and rasboras, but I'm not sure how big catfish grow. How about Corydora cats, these stay on the bottom in a little shoal but do not grow much more that 7 cm.


-Ok this may seem to be a strange question, but are tropical fish in a tank like this agitated by music in the same room? I'm a student of music so I practice alot in my room, I wonder if the fish would notice the vibrations and get all stressed out.

I keep two fish tanks in my room and both are right next to my speakers, I don't always play my music loud but havn't noticed the fish reacting to the sound, they may even get used to it in the end, think of a pond which is next to a railway track or a road, loud but the fish don;t seem to mind.

-And the most obvious question: With the fish I like and the biotope I described, which fish and which plants would not be too hard to care for. Also, I'm wondering what kind of stock I want to end up with. I realy love the kuhlii loaches so I was thinking a small group of those, then 1 or two schools and as a final addition one or a pair of gouramis?

Danios and rasboras are both very easy to care for, especially Danios, Remember Kuhli loaches will gorw to at least 15cm so will outgrow that tank quickly.

-I almost forgot this, I would also like to have some non-fish creatures in my aquarium, maybe shrimp are a good option? What kind of shrimp could I keep with my fish?

I have four Amano shrimp in my tank, or I think that I do, I bought them two weekends ago and havn't seen them since, the only way that I know that they are still alive is because they poo constantly as they eat constantly and the poo ends up on my sand looking very ugly.

Please let me know what you think

Hope that helps, and welcome to the AC

[Chrona]

Actually, depending on your setup, sand may be the way to go. You want to get sand that is 1-3mm in size. Any smaller and it will compact too much. Any bigger and you defeat the purpose of getting sand in the first place. You may or may not be able to get such sand at the local Home Depot. I know for a fact that mine carries sand that is WAY too fine for fish tanks. Make sure to wash it out THOROUGHLY. After you are done washing it, wash it 2 more times.

In particular, having a sandy substrate helps with growing fine groundcovers like marselia, glosso, etc, because they tend to look more spread out with larger substrates (even stuff like Flourite), and they have difficulty spreading through larger particles. What you WILL want, however, is some malaysian trumpet snails and possibly some freshwater clams, as they will dig through the sand, which aerates it and uncompacts it at the same time. Make sure you you don't make the bed more than 2-3 inches deep, as sulfur tends to get built up in the anerobic parts underneath if the layer of sand is too deep, and those toxic gas pockets will vent when you move the substrate around. Furthermore, because sand doesn't exactly have a high CEC (nutrient holding ability), or iron content, you will want to use Flourish tabs to help your root-feeding plants out. If you plan on getting a fully planted tank with high lighting and CO2, then a dark substrate and a black background looks amazing because it makes all the plants and fish pop out. However, if you don't fill up the tank with plants, then you should consider a natural looking gravel, and a stick-on background or something, because all that black will be too visible.

Don't worry about the shrimp. Amano's are very hardy, and I've seen stories about how people have lost up to 20 (!) shrimp in a 10g tank (although they were cherry shrimp, but still....lol)

From what I've read, thumping/bass noises (like subwoofers) will initially cause stress with the fish, because it does vibrate the stand/tank and thus the water. They should in theory get used to it later on.

[Niku-M]

Wow, thanks a lot for taking the time to answer my questions. I'm happy music doens't seem to cause much of a problem for fish. About the sand, won't it be possible to mix different substrates so the plants can be put in places they will grow better and have some sand in other areas? At least this seems a good idea for me.

Actually, I discovered my parents have kept aquariums for quite some time :S ... which is strange because they never talked about it. Anyway they still had some books that I've flipped through, problem is that they are quite old... I'll go to the library again tomorrow to pick up some less ancient books for reference.

About the kuhli loach, the book I have describes that all of the Acanthophthalmus (kuhli loach) variants grow to 5-8 cm. Offcourse this information could be dated but I'll check tomorrow. Another thing the book states is that all Cobitidae tend to dig alot in the substrate making the water cloudy, I wonder if this holds true for the Kuhli loaches making them maybe very incompatible with sand or fine gravel.

I have another very important question by the way, I'm going to move from the place I live right now in about 6 months... How do you move tropical with you to another place or is this impossible. If the last thing is true I might reconsider getting an aquarium now.

Thanks again for your advice. I don't trust shopkeepers much so I'm really happy with you helping me out. thumbs2:

[Lady Hobbs]

I am now switching over to sand myself and like it a lot. I went with the cheapie Home Depot 100 pounds for $7 playsand. Washed it a couple times, dropped it in the tank and waited about 15 minutes before turning the filters on. Whoola. It's just like at the beach.....some finer and some courser but is not the very pretty white sand many like.

One thing about sand, as well, all the debris lays on the top. No need to dig around with the gravel vac to clean it up. I haven't planted with it yet and when I do will put use the Fluorite as a base.

[Chrona]

Yes, you can mix substrates, both as an even mixing, or having half the tank as sand and the other half as say, Flourite. Most people will put in little strips of plexiglass to serve as a divider though, and let plants cover it up, or else the sand/whatever will get mixed up over time. Most dual substrate setups I've seen involve plant substrate (ie Ecocomplete, Flourite, ADA Aquasoil in the back, in almost a horseshoe pattern, and the sand in the front center. The sand looks amazing, and you get the benefit of the plant substrate.

[Glasstapper]

If you're planning on moving in 6 months, it will be waaaaay easier for you to just wait until you're in you're new home. Moving the fish will be stressful for them (and for you).

[kimmers318]

Sounds like most of your bases have been covered. You will be fine with the kuhli loach, they only get 3-4 inches max and are very low on the bioload so no problems there. I would suggest a group of at least 4 to get the max benefit of what it is like to have these guys, they are way cool! I have 4 striped ones and love to watch them play in the current. As for having them in a sand bottom, they won't kick the sand up that much for you to notice it, no more than any bottom feeders will, and as long as the sand is rinsed well it will settle right back down. If you choose to go with a sand bed make sure your filter intake is 3" or more up above the floor of the tank.
I wouldn't suggest 2-3" deep sand bed.....much more chance of those gas pockets they spoke of. I stay around 1-1/2 inches and just move more sand over bases of decor if need be.
As for the other fish.....not real sure about the glass catfish, see conflicting information so do plenty of research. Size ranges were 2 3/4" to 6" and I don't think a school of 6" fish would be happy in that tank. These should be kept in groups as they do like to school together so I wouldn't suggest less than 6.
Danios are great if you like fast action fish, they will zip around the tank like no tomorrow, again a good schooling fish stick with a group. Plus they harass less when schooled leaving the other fish alone.
Betta in community tanks are always hit or miss, it depends on the betta, so I wouldn't suggest it unless you are ready to re-home or return the betta if it doesn't work out. It will most likely NOT work out with a gourami, several of us here have had success with bettas in community tanks, but I can tell you from experience, my gourami was the one the betta disliked the most!
A dwarf gourami would be okay in that set up, but I am not sure if they would care to be floating around in there own little world while a school of danios is running around on crack!
Last, but not least, no information from me on rainbows and rasboras other than I have not heard of any owners being unhappy with them. They always seem to love the colors and behavior of them.

[Niku-M]

Again, thanks for your replies! :D

About the moving thing, I am considering to just wait untill I have moved and set up a tank in my new home. However I'm extremely anxious to get an aquarium so I'm trying to find some other solution here. Do any pet stores take fish that are not juvelines or is it common to give or sell semi-adult or adult fish to other aquarists in the neighbourhood? (I'm sure there are quite a lot over here..)

This book I have states that glass catfish grow to 10cm, which is too large as you suggested kimmers. As for the other fish, do very active fish stress out fish that are more relaxed? From what I understand gouramis are quite calm so would they be intimidated by danios and when the kuhli loaches start to play around? Also, from what I've read kuhli's seem to like fast moving water while gouramis prefer calm water. Would this be a problem? Could it be possible to make the layout of the tank so that there is a very calm area and an area where the filter creates alot of motion? (Maybe the tank is just way too small for this.)

[Niku-M]

Since I will be moving I've decided that tropical fish will not be such a good idea, as I don't want to put them through moving which involves quite harsh conditions. Instead I'm planning to keep a few goldfish (or just one depending) as they are quite hardy fish as I've read and they will probably be not so stressed out from moving. Right now I have this very very old tank which my father once used as a hospital/quarantaine tank for his tropical fish (I've also discovered quite ancient filters and heaters, which was interesting) and which is about 35x20x25 cm... which is not too big so I'm guessing it's not too comfortable for 2 goldfish, it also has no lid or lighting. Also the glass is old and not too beautiful.

I'll probably buy a new tank which has a lid with lighting and a new filter so I can get my fish a more shiny home :)

I have a question on cold-water fish now, is the cycling process before adding fish the same as with tropical fish.. I guess so but thought it would be safer to ask. Also, do I need some sort of air pump or similar to make the air more breathable for goldfish?

By the way, all your information on the tropical fish is really aprecciated still because I want to keep those eventually and this way I'll probably make less mistakes.