What is happening?!?!?!

[fishymommy]

I have a 90g tank with:

2 juvenile (1.5-2inch) blood parrot cichlids,
10-15 cardinal tetras
1 harlequin rasbora
2 black neon tetras
4 longfin zebra danios
4 ottos
1 guppy

All the parameters are perfect and I've been doing 25% WC's each weekend but I have had massive fish deaths for the last month or so. About a month ago, I added 27 baby cardinal tetras w/o quaranteening them. Over the next week or so, I lost about 5-10 due to stress but there were no signs of disease/fungus/infection anywhere on anybody. Everyone would be fine, eating well but the next morning I would find 1 or 2 dead fish. It slowed down for about a week, only having 1 death every few days so I went ahead and got the two bp's. Both are extremely happy and healthy and such pigs haha. But I am loosing more fish than ever now. In the past month I have lost about 10-15 cardinals, 2 harlequin rasboras, and 3 black neon tetras. Both the neons and the rasboras are/were bigger than the bp's and nobody had any signs/symptoms of sickness.

What is going on in my tank? Is it some invisible disease killing thinks off? Or is it possible my bp's are killing the fish? Again, all the fish are WAY bigger than the bp's mouths and some even bigger than the bp's themselves. However, every fish I have pulled out has had a big chewed out whole in their stomach. Idk if this is from being killed/eaten alive or scavenging after the fact. I do know the bp's like to chew on corpses but I have never seen them kill a fish.

What do you think is happening? Disease or murder??

TIA,

fishymommy

[MonkeyPox]

It would be helpful to post your water parameters.
If cycled, how long?

As a general rule, I do not recommend adding new fish to a tank that has had unexplained deaths for at least 30 days.

[Harls]

Umm.. is it just me or are blood parrots cichlids... don;t cichlids like to eat little fishies?

[kaimarkhirst]

what bothers me here, and im just pointing this out and not having a dig here, is that hes having tanks deaths, then adds more fish, not even mentioning the fact that its a cichlid, a "premium care and attention" fish as I call them.. What you should have done is get the deaths down to 0 for a month or so, then look at adding nmore fish and what you want to add..

Weve all done it so anyway..

This sounds like new tank syndrome and that 25% water change PW is too much for the fish after acclimatisation. Most people recommend a 10% water change every week. Thats what I do (Or try to do (blush) )...

Massive deaths of small fish are probably due to acclimatisation and thats why its been slowing down recently. we all get deaths in the aquarium due to no reason at all, thats just nature and the rule of fishkeeping. The recent spike in deaths and the evidence youve posted are all very clear. Your Cichlids want dominant territory and they will fight and kill for it.

The overall conclusion to this is that youve not really planned your tank, but thats ok. I did the same and so many others have before and after me, but you should be doing it now. And as a suggestion I would start with the cichlids, assuming youre going to keep them, work around them and work onthe rule that you need fish that is equal temparament to the ones that you are keeping. bottom line, Cichlids will dominate your tank period, amplified ten times as youve got small fish in here.... Look at the profile of parrot cichlids and then work to their needs, not to your. If it doesnt fit in with your tank planning, take them back to the LFS...

Overall, take a step back, look objectively and pro-actively to the fishes needs, then youll start having a stable tank, and a stable wallet......

Hope this helps..

Kai

[Drumachine09]

How long has your tank been up and running with fish?



Also, 25% is not too much. The more you can change the better.

[thatcichlidguy]

I agree that the initial deaths sound like a cycle/bio-load issue, round two sounds like what happens when you put cichlids in community tanks. BPs are hybrid cichlids . Exactly what their genetic make-up is is kind of a mystery but considering that they get a chunk of their DNA from Amphilophus species, it's not really hard to see them being aggressive. I've heard of BPs killing Flowerhorns larger than themselves. There is a good bit of variation in the temperment of BPs but for the most part they should considered aggressive unless an individual proves itself otherwise. Even then they shouldn't be trusted with your typical community fish. The odd mouth shape by no means prevents them from killing and eating small fish or any fish they can catch. They are cichlids after all and they will behave as such.

[jaysee]

I would not try adding new fish to a tank where fish are dying. If you don't know what's going on in the tank, adding new fish is the last thing you should be doing because you are just adding variables, making it harder to pinpoint the problem.

I highly doubt it was a bioload issue. That's a 90 gallon tank.

Fishymommy is not a he.

[thatcichlidguy]

I highly doubt it was a bioload issue. That's a 90 gallon tank
Tank volume doesn't matter in regards to a sudden increase in bio-load.If it's current bio-filter is only just adequate for what's in it and you double the number of fish suddenly, you overwhelm the ability of the bio-filter to cope with the additional load. It just takes time for the BB to multiply to an approporiate population. That results in a mini cycle and fish may die from ammonia /nitrite poisoning . I think the addition of the BPs has resulted in a slight surge in ammonia and nitrite , as well as week fish being killed by the BPs.

[Mith]

what bothers me here, and im just pointing this out and not having a dig here, is that hes having tanks deaths, then adds more fish, not even mentioning the fact that its a cichlid, a "premium care and attention" fish as I call them.. What you should have done is get the deaths down to 0 for a month or so, then look at adding nmore fish and what you want to add..

Weve all done it so anyway..

This sounds like new tank syndrome and that 25% water change PW is too much for the fish after acclimatisation. Most people recommend a 10% water change every week. Thats what I do (Or try to do (blush) )...

Massive deaths of small fish are probably due to acclimatisation and thats why its been slowing down recently. we all get deaths in the aquarium due to no reason at all, thats just nature and the rule of fishkeeping. The recent spike in deaths and the evidence youve posted are all very clear. Your Cichlids want dominant territory and they will fight and kill for it.

The overall conclusion to this is that youve not really planned your tank, but thats ok. I did the same and so many others have before and after me, but you should be doing it now. And as a suggestion I would start with the cichlids, assuming youre going to keep them, work around them and work onthe rule that you need fish that is equal temparament to the ones that you are keeping. bottom line, Cichlids will dominate your tank period, amplified ten times as youve got small fish in here.... Look at the profile of parrot cichlids and then work to their needs, not to your. If it doesnt fit in with your tank planning, take them back to the LFS...

Overall, take a step back, look objectively and pro-actively to the fishes needs, then youll start having a stable tank, and a stable wallet......

Hope this helps..

Kai


Just want to say this was a polite reply and helpful. It's always nice when members help and are respectful as they do so. Good job!

[acbus]

Any idea to find out, good advice.

[KingFisher]

Just wondering, did the deaths start before or after you introduced the fish from your 20g into this tank. If it was after, you may have introduced the same diseases that you had constant problems with in the 20g. I remember a lot of fish dying from problems in that tank .

[fishymommy]

Lets see.. The 90g has been up and running for about 8 months now. I find it hard to believe its a bioload issue because even at my max of cardinal tetras and the parrots, I had less of a bioload than before I made the switch to trying these fish.

Unfortunately, I have been planning this tank for a while now. I had been on here a few weeks ago asking about the bp's and cardinal tetras and whether they would work together. Back then I had gotten a full concensus that the bp's if introduced young, wouldn't kill/eat the little fish. I'm not sure thats the case now but hopefully that will help make me seem less like a loonie newb who doesn't plan anything. I admit that the rasboras, guppy, and some cardinals were a last minute thing but that was just to switch my 20g to sw.

As for param's, ammonia=0, nitrite=0, nitrate=5-10, ph=7.

I know I definitely went around getting the bp's too quickly with the cardinal deaths but I had severe pressure from my bf/brothers to get the bp's and got them against my better judgement.

So.. an update I guess. I pulled out three more dead cardinals today. One which had been dead at least a couple days, one I saw yesterday but couldn't get to, and one from overnight. Again, everyone is happy, energetic, and eating well. The water is clean and clear (no signs of mini cycle) and there isn't any strange growths or anything in the tank. No fish have any signs of disease or stress- no bumps, white spots, white poo, torn fins, etc... The bp's are growing like crazy and love attention.. umm.. yeah.

So does it sound like the bp's are eating/killing the fish? If it is, that really sucks because there is no way I would be able to catch all of those tiny little guys in the big 90g. And I cant take the bp's back either.

Thanks for the help so far.. hope that clears some things up.

[fishymommy]

Oh, and the deaths started as soon as I brought home the 27 baby cardinal tetras from the lfs. Initially it was only one or two a day and we didn't know if it was due to stress or the danios, who had been chacing them like crazy but were to slow to catch them.

Ooo.. could they be being killed in their sleep? Since all are fine during the day but are too fast to be caught when awake, could they be being snatched once they are sleeping?

Anyway, then I got the bp's and they are doing well, don't seem to be affected at all. The cardinal tetras are still dying off 1 every night or so but everyone left is doing great.

[thatcichlidguy]

My Midas/RD would kill his giant danio dithers in a similar fashion. He was fine with them until a few months ago then one at a time they started dying. Caught him in the act one night and moved the survivors to the 125. He would leave them alone until the lights went out, then about 30min. later he'd lay into one.

Sudden changes in bio-load whether adding or removing can adversely affect your bio-filter capacity. Also remember that cichlids have a higher bio-load footprint than small community fish. It's really not a good Idea to rapidly change stocking . My experience is that it just causes problems both in terms of bio-load and compatability as your finding out. Whether the bioload issue is a factor or not , cichlids are problematic to stock with snack sized tankmates. They will outpace your cardinals and other fish in growth and will soon start picking on other fish . BPs can grow to 8-9" and can be very beligerant . once the grow to around 5" they'll likely turn their tank into a tetra free zone . Even mild mannered cichlid species are hard to stock with smaller community fish since instinct tells them they're food. The big thing here is that your gonna need to choose between a BP tank and a community tank.

[mac]

Reading this whole thread it sounded to me more of a Cichlid problem, along with a possible disease that may have come with the fish.

I would return the RD, and wait to see what happens. Once things settle down, wait before adding fish.

mac