Help please

[GeneralGoldeneye]

What would U say the problem be if your fish is breathing rapidly and just laying there... Its a new tank

[MonkeyPox]

post your tank parameters including Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

post your tank parameters including Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates.

its only a 10 gal tank and I dont have test kit yet but everything was fine when I took water to the fish store friday... I also got 2 fish that friday to start my cycling process so they only been there almost 2 days now... my salt was a little high but i brought that down a little befor I put them in.. here is a pic of the fish


http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fishpictures/data/500/DSC018832.JPG

[AABatteries]

Either flukes or velvet. That's how I lost my firefish. To one of those two. Haven't had a fish for almost 2 months now because I haven't got my QT.

[Kyle]

Well I have to ask, arnt those damsels? They will outgrow a 10g tank plus they are agressive, there arnt many fish you can keep in a 10g

[GeneralGoldeneye]

Well I have to ask, arnt those damsels? They will outgrow a 10g tank plus they are agressive, there arnt many fish you can keep in a 10g

Yes they are and I didn't plan on keeping them.. Just using them to cycle the tank.. The owner refereed them to me to cycle with and told me I could bring them back to get credit after cycling is done, but by the looks of it one was dead this morning and the other is laying on its side at the bottom of the tank breathing heavy

[GeneralGoldeneye]

so something is wrong with my tank just after 2 days.. I probably will go back up there today and talk with him and get a testing kit :scry:

[MonkeyPox]

I would do a water change until you can get a testing kit.


Are you adding dechlorinator?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I would do a water change until you can get a testing kit.


Are you adding dechlorinator?

yes I use dechlorinator and I did a water change this morning after finding a dead fish.. I just got back from the fish store and I took a bag of water befor and after I did the water change and both checked out fine... They also recommend me to get a grounding wire for the tank so i did. I guess it a waiting game now to see if my other wish will survive now... Its just laying on its side breathing hard

[unleashed]

You shouldn't need to use a live animal to cycle your tank.

If you used true live rock, the die-off will start the cycle. If you used dead rock, a piece of shrimp or other shellfish can be used to start the cycle.

I am also very wary of using chemicals such as de-chlorinators in my tank. I never add anything I can't test for. You should try to use RO/DI water from you LFS which won't have any chemicals in it.

Also, you will have major problems in that size tank with damsels. Even though it is only 10g, I bet that you will have to take out all the rock to catch them.

I don't think that the fish died from flukes or velvet. Velvet will take several days to kill the fish and flukes take even longer. Most likely some chemical in your water killed it or the stress from cycling killed it

EDIT

Also, with regards to breathing rapidly and lying down. This can be a sign of very sick fish (from cycling stress/chemicals in the water) or a lack of oxygen.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

You shouldn't need to use a live animal to cycle your tank.

If you used true live rock, the die-off will start the cycle. If you used dead rock, a piece of shrimp or other shellfish can be used to start the cycle.

I am also very wary of using chemicals such as de-chlorinators in my tank. I never add anything I can't test for. You should try to use RO/DI water from you LFS which won't have any chemicals in it.

Also, you will have major problems in that size tank with damsels. Even though it is only 10g, I bet that you will have to take out all the rock to catch them.

I don't think that the fish died from flukes or velvet. Velvet will take several days to kill the fish and flukes take even longer. Most likely some chemical in your water killed it or the stress from cycling killed it

EDIT

Also, with regards to breathing rapidly and lying down. This can be a sign of very sick fish (from cycling stress/chemicals in the water) or a lack of oxygen.

What does the typical FS cost for RO water

[GeneralGoldeneye]

OK 1st off the second fish died. OK like I said I was going to picked up a liquid test kit and I did the results of my water are: PH 7.8, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 0, Ammonia 0.25.... So I see nothing wrong with my water

:worthless:

[unleashed]

It might not be the 'usual' parameters which killed your fish. I suspect another chemical (de-chlorinator to be exact) to be the culprit for killing your fish.

While your ammonia is high, that is usual for cycling but it can kill fish. If it is not too late, I would leave one of the dead fish in their and that will kick off the cycle.

I can't comment on what RO water costs because I don't live in America..............

[MonkeyPox]

If those are your water parameters, then something is wrong.

You should not have any ammonia and you should have nitrates. 0 nitrates and 0 nitrites means your tank hasn't cycled yet.

I disagree with unleashed- I see nothing wrong with dechlorinator and have used it in all my tanks for years. I've only used RO/DI water on very, very sensitive species and ultimately abandoned the practice.

[MonkeyPox]

I suspect another chemical (de-chlorinator to be exact) to be the culprit for killing your fish.


I have never, ever heard of a case where dechlorinator was suspected to be a culprit in a fish dying.
I can absolutely assure you and anyone else, however, that not dechlorinating your water will kill nitrosomas, potentially all of them, and will harm if not kill your fish.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

It might not be the 'usual' parameters which killed your fish. I suspect another chemical (de-chlorinator to be exact) to be the culprit for killing your fish.

While your ammonia is high, that is usual for cycling but it can kill fish. If it is not too late, I would leave one of the dead fish in their and that will kick off the cycle.

I can't comment on what RO water costs because I don't live in America..............

I have already taken them out... my carbon in the filter should take out the chem right.. I will have to check on the price of RO water next time I go to my LFS

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I have never, ever heard of a case where dechlorinator was suspected to be a culprit in a fish dying.
I can absolutely assure you and anyone else, however, that not dechlorinating your water will kill nitrosomas, potentially all of them, and will harm if not kill your fish.

I have always used tap water with dechlorinator for my freshwater tanks with no problems... Also the guy at the fish store has been a great help and taking me through step be step of what I'm needing to do. He was asking me a lot of questions with trying to find a solution to my problem. We decided to try a grounding prob to put in my tank thinking maybe something in my tank is giving off a low current and stressing out the fish. The damage was done to both of them by the time I got it installed :scry:

[MonkeyPox]

That seems like a bizarre problem, when it simply looks like your tank is uncycled and the ammonia is stressing the fish.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

That seems like a bizarre problem, when it simply looks like your tank is uncycled and the ammonia is stressing the fish.

Yes my tank is not cycled.. It is only 5 days old
also that is a low level of ammonia to stress them out

[MonkeyPox]

Any measurable ammonia is toxic to all fish.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

Any measurable ammonia is toxic to all fish.

true but I'm not seeing that as the problem that killed the fish. I noticed them acting strange when I first put them in the new tank.. Right off with in the first few Min's they started to breath rapidly

[GeneralGoldeneye]

also I put them in on Friday and they died today and they continued to breath heavy that whole time

[unleashed]

This is why I don't think ammonia is the culprit.

True, it is toxic to all fish. However, if shouldn't kill damsels this quick which are very hardy fish anyway.

Hence why I am leaning towards a chemical in your water which killed them. As no other chemicals other than de-chlorinator have been mention, you have to naturally assume that de-chlorinator is the likely suspect.

This is why I never use any chemical or supplement in my tank which I cannot test for.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

This is why I don't think ammonia is the culprit.

True, it is toxic to all fish. However, if shouldn't kill damsels this quick which are very hardy fish anyway.

Hence why I am leaning towards a chemical in your water which killed them. As no other chemicals other than de-chlorinator have been mention, you have to naturally assume that de-chlorinator is the likely suspect.

This is why I never use any chemical or supplement in my tank which I cannot test for.

Ok let me ask you this?? Will the Dechlorinator work its way out over the next few days with the carbon filters I have??

[MonkeyPox]

I'm sorry, but that's faulty logic and likely to scare someone off from finding the true culprit.

There are millions of things that could be in her water. She tested for 3. Jumping to a substance that, I'm sure, a very large population of the aquarium community and this board use is not very good science.

In this specific case, we have a small, uncycled tank and a measurable amount of a toxin in that tank.

Although some damsals are considered "hardy" by the aquatic community, hardy doesn't mean immune to toxin and no matter what way you slice it, when you cycle with fish, you run the risk of damage/death. Note, I'm not advocating a fish or fishless cycle here, just illustrating the risk and what I believe, based on the current evidence, to be the most likely cause of the problem at hand.

Furthermore, I would assert that if it wasn't the ammonia that killed the fish, I'd lay claim to some other chemical: chlorine, chloramine, lead, iron, copper, iodine, etc... long before I suspected the dechlorinator.

However, we can further go down the path of the cause and go through some basic questions:

What dechlorinator did you use, how much did you use, and what method did you introduce it to the tank?

The fish, I presume, came in a bag from the lfs. How did you introduce the fish to the tank and did you dump the water from the lfs into your tank?

Are you positive you examine the fish for signs of stress prior to your purchase?

How did you introduce the salt to your tank? What is your specific gravity?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I'm sorry, but that's faulty logic and likely to scare someone off from finding the true culprit.

There are millions of things that could be in her water. She tested for 3. Jumping to a substance that, I'm sure, a very large population of the aquarium community and this board use is not very good science.

In this specific case, we have a small, uncycled tank and a measurable amount of a toxin in that tank.

Although some damsals are considered "hardy" by the aquatic community, hardy doesn't mean immune to toxin and no matter what way you slice it, when you cycle with fish, you run the risk of damage/death. Note, I'm not advocating a fish or fishless cycle here, just illustrating the risk and what I believe, based on the current evidence, to be the most likely cause of the problem at hand.

Furthermore, I would assert that if it wasn't the ammonia that killed the fish, I'd lay claim to some other chemical: chlorine, chloramine, lead, iron, copper, iodine, etc... long before I suspected the dechlorinator.

However, we can further go down the path of the cause and go through some basic questions:

What dechlorinator did you use, how much did you use, and what method did you introduce it to the tank?

The fish, I presume, came in a bag from the lfs. How did you introduce the fish to the tank and did you dump the water from the lfs into your tank?

Are you positive you examine the fish for signs of stress prior to your purchase?

How did you introduce the salt to your tank? What is your specific gravity?

1. I use AquaSafe from Tetra
2. I mix it in a gallon jug and put it in my tank
3.I let the fish float in the take for a bit then interduce some of my water in the bag then let set for a bit do it again let sit for bit then let them out and no I dont put the FS water in my tank
4.the fish seem fine till they got to my tank
5. the gravity of my water is 1.021

See anything wrong

[MonkeyPox]

I see no apparent problems, though I am curious about the 1g jug. If you filled the 1g jug with the salt required for 10g and then dumped it in that way, it could cause a shock to the inhabitants if it was stocked. You want to add the salt a lot more slowly.

I also assumed you dosed the Tetra according to the directions on the back.

Either way, nothing really strikes me as wrong except your ammonia levels.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I see no apparent problems, though I am curious about the 1g jug. If you filled the 1g jug with the salt required for 10g and then dumped it in that way, it could cause a shock to the inhabitants if it was stocked. You want to add the salt a lot more slowly.

I also assumed you dosed the Tetra according to the directions on the back.

Either way, nothing really strikes me as wrong except your ammonia levels.

the salt I add a little at a time till its at a good level

[MonkeyPox]

Cool deal. I've seen people just dump a bucket of salt in their aquariums all at once and then wonder how I knew so many cursewords...

Your specific gravity is a tad on the low side, but not something that would cause any injuries or deaths.

If it were me, I'd go back to the helpful lfs and ask for some seeded media for your tank, then check my parameters the next day and if all is well and you see nitrates, add 1-2 small fish.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

yea that would speed up the process of my cycling... I will have to ask him when I'm back up there. its a good 35 min drive thats what I hate :P If I have to I can buy new media balls and let him have them for his used ones lol. All I would have to do is drop them in the back of my canister filter

[MonkeyPox]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but what kind of biological media are you using?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I'm sorry if I missed this, but what kind of biological media are you using?

I have a canister filter on the back of my tank along with 2lbs of live rock a 8lb pice of dry rock



http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fishpictures/data/500/DSC018802.JPG

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/fishpictures/data/500/DSC018822.JPG

[MonkeyPox]

What biological media are you using in your filter?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

Just the filter pad it comes with

[MonkeyPox]

Filter pads are primarily mechanical filtration. Although they do contain nitrifying bacteria, they really aren't porous enough to house enough.

Did your HOB not come with any kind of ceramic media?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

Nope sure didn't just the pad to collect it .that's what i was thinking to just drope them bid it

[MonkeyPox]

You would do well to add some kind of biological filtration to your HOB.

What model/brand was it?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

You would do well to add some kind of biological filtration to your HOB.

What model/brand was it?

Its a walmart brand Aqua-Tech 5-15 gal

[MonkeyPox]

I'm not familiar with them, but a quick search shows them to be a small, filter cartridge system.
If your budget allows, I would recommend grabbing one of the cheap AquaClears from DrsFosterandSmith for >20$ that some folks were talking about in another thread.

You surely want some biological media, like ceramic, in your filtration system.

[labnjab]

You surely want some biological media, like ceramic, in your filtration system.

I would have to strongly disagree. The manmade filtration is just going to add some problems down the road. Since this is a saltwater tank you need to ditch the HOB and pick up a small power head to get some flow into the tank, say a korilia nano and eventually get a skimmer. I would also strongly recomend to start using RO/DI water. Tap water causes a lot of porblems in a saltwater tank. Although some people can get away with using it, in most cases it is highly recomended not to use it.

Then you needs to just let the tank naturally cycle. Fill the tank to the top so that large piece is completly covered. The 2 lbs of live rock will seed the 8 lbs of base rock and in roughly 2-4 weeks it will complete the cycle. Once it completes the cycle you can start adding your CUC and a few weeks after adding the CUC you can add a small fish.

I also recomended getting a small 5-10 gallon container with a heater and small powerhead to mix saltwater in atleast 24 hrs in advance. That way you have several gallons on hand incase of an emergency and to simplify water changes. I keep 10-18 gallons of SW and 10 gallons or RO/DI on hand all the time (I make my own Ro/DI)

[MonkeyPox]

I would have to strongly disagree. The manmade filtration is just going to add some problems down the road. Since this is a saltwater tank you need to ditch the HOB and pick up a small power head to get some flow into the tank, say a korilia nano and eventually get a skimmer. I would also strongly recomend to start using RO/DI water. Tap water causes a lot of porblems in a saltwater tank. Although some people can get away with using it, in most cases it is highly recomended not to use it.

Then you needs to just let the tank naturally cycle. Fill the tank to the top so that large piece is completly covered. The 2 lbs of live rock will seed the 8 lbs of base rock and in roughly 2-4 weeks it will complete the cycle. Once it completes the cycle you can start adding your CUC and a few weeks after adding the CUC you can add a small fish.

I also recomended getting a small 5-10 gallon container with a heater and small powerhead to mix saltwater in atleast 24 hrs in advance. That way you have several gallons on hand incase of an emergency and to simplify water changes. I keep 10-18 gallons of SW and 10 gallons or RO/DI on hand all the time (I make my own Ro/DI)


For a larger tank and an experienced hobbyist, this is good advice. In this case, a 10g tank and a relative small number of unestablished live rock, no sump, no deep sand bed, etc... The aquarium needs some kind of additional filtration.

I also don't know why you state that HOB or any other filter will only cause problems down the road. Many people here, including myself, have had filters last decades and are still running strong. Was there some other reason for the comment?

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I plan on get ing more smaller pieces of live rock probably at the end of the week

[labnjab]

I also don't know why you state that HOB or any other filter will only cause problems down the road. Many people here, including myself, have had filters last decades and are still running strong. Was there some other reason for the comment?

What I should have put is they really cause problems when not properly maintained. They cause nitrate and phosphate problems. I'm just a huge fan of natural systems in saltwater. Our tank has been running since September of 2008 with just live rock, powerheads, a skimmer, live sand and some chaeto in the sump with no man made mechanical filtration other then a filter sock and a course sponge on the return pump (which all get cleaned in very hot tap water weekly) and it is has been crystal clear since day 3 and is way clearer then our 3 freshwater tanks that are all heavily filtered with man made filters. In my opinion the less complicated the better.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

What I should have put is they really cause problems when not properly maintained. They cause nitrate and phosphate problems. I'm just a huge fan of natural systems in saltwater. Our tank has been running since September of 2008 with just live rock, powerheads, a skimmer, live sand and some chaeto in the sump with no man made mechanical filtration other then a filter sock and a course sponge on the return pump (which all get cleaned in very hot tap water weekly) and it is has been crystal clear since day 3 and is way clearer then our 3 freshwater tanks that are all heavily filtered with man made filters. In my opinion the less complicated the better.

I plan when my tank is up and running good that im not going to need to have them

[GeneralGoldeneye]

Well I went back to the fish store today and took some water for them to check... Everything was normal for a cycling tank some ammonia little nitrates little nitrites... He decided to give me 6 media balls from his tank to use in mine so i should have a really fast cycle now thumbs2: I would recommend this store to anybody if you lived around Wichita ks... Its a privately owned store and the couple that own it has been really nice and helping me with setup... I'm going to check my levels to see if they have changed any in the past few hours since I have put them in

[HorrorShowRot]

I have never actually had a store be nice to me. Mostly I get looked at funny.... Because I wear band ts such as Bodom Amon amarth and they think I just eat the fish and what not. lol

[HorrorShowRot]

But congratulations on your cycling.

[GeneralGoldeneye]

I have never actually had a store be nice to me. Mostly I get looked at funny.... Because I wear band ts such as Bodom Amon amarth and they think I just eat the fish and what not. lol

Fish eater lol :hmm3grin2orange: