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sitruc7
06-08-2009, 11:22 PM
I have had 4 angels for almost a year in a community tank with 5 tiger barbs (i know, bad idea but I couldn't find them a home and they haven't seem to have caused any problems,) 2 redfin sharks and a pleco (55g semi planted tank). I was lucky enough to have 2 of the angels spawn a week ago and as expected the eggs didn't make it through the night. Eventually (in 4-5 months when I move) I will most likely put the pair in their own tank to breed. Until then though I am extremely excited and would like to raise some fry, lol.

Since I'm not at a long term residence I am not that interested in having a huge yield. I am hoping to just get some babies as soon as possible, have at least a handful live, and not disturb and break up the pair or ruin any possibilities that they would become the parenting type in the future.

I do have a 40g tank that I can either use for fry, the pair, or some of the community fish that won't do well with the fry.

The most appealing scenario for me would be to remove the tiger barbs and let the pair spawn in the big tank and raise the fry on their own, even if only a few make it.

I think I will remove the tiger barbs (maybe replace them with around 5 neon tetras) before their 2nd spawn and see if the eggs make it in the community tank. Then on the next spawn (Pretty sure I read that the still spawn every couple weeks whether they have fry or not) whether there are fry or not, remove the rock and hatch some artificially. At that point I don't have enough space to raise fry so I would probably just let them do their thing (assuming I don't fail miserably with the eggs I harvest lol.)

I guess some questions I have would be about the likelihood of my fish ever becoming parental. They are petsmart and walmart fish (lol) so I'm not expecting the highest quality of genes. (btw one is some strand of black and one is the wild type(but I doubt its within 100 generations of a wild caught fish since it came from petsmart) if that affects their parental traits). I know its common for all angels to eat their first batch, but if the eat their second or third is their still hope? Also If I take their eggs from them in their early spawns does that increase the risk of them never becoming parental?

Another issue is tank aggression. The male on occasion will peck at the body of the female which isn't a big deal I believe. Their also seems to be a second female (my assumption based on its tendency to show aggression to the confirmed female and i think it was showing or partially showing a blunt papillae(sp?) when the other 2 were spawning.) This fish (some strand of koi angel) is very aggressive towards the female that spawned and faces little retaliation. I can tell from looking at the spawning female that she has been taking a beating and either has missing or disrupted scales. It doesn't look to bad but my experience is zero and it is noticeable so I'm not sure if this is something to worry about. I am wondering if it is safe to keep these 2 fish together while the male/female spawn. Also I guess I'm curious if the male would fertilize eggs with multiple females (I am assuming not especially if the fry are left with the parents).

The 4th angel may be a male (about a month ago it protected one corner of the tank aggressively with the confirmed female until it lost interest after a week or 2.) If this fish matured and became interested in breeding and the other unpaired fish was a female and I happened to end up with 2 pairs. What would happen if both pairs were in the same tank? would this result in huge dangerous territory disputes? My tank is very (in my opinion) tall and is only 12.5 inches from front to back so the fish are able to put a lot of distance between themselves from end to end.

Also what do I need to be careful of to ensure that I don't somehow break up the pair and never get another spawn?

Thanks for reading my 6 page essay of a post, or even part of it! I'll post some pics when I get off work.

PS I'm excited.

sitruc7
06-09-2009, 12:32 AM
Here are some pictures of the pair:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m41/sitruc7/dsc00491.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m41/sitruc7/dsc00490.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m41/sitruc7/dsc00489.jpg

and here is one of the whole tank

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m41/sitruc7/dsc00492.jpg

thatcichlidguy
06-09-2009, 01:33 AM
It may take several tries before your Angels get the hang of the whole spawning thing. Another thought is that they could be eating them since they may feel threatened by the other Angels, or the batch wasn't fertile . Hard to say for sure. Might be a good Idea to move the other fish to the extra tank and see what happens.I also wouldn't add any other fish once you move the others ,particularly neons which would probably end up as snacks . Since they have started spawning , they'll keep going. Once most cichlids start you really can't get them to stop short of seperating them.

What is your PH , and how is the hardness? Many South American cichlids have difficulty spawning sucessfully in hard water. Seeing as these are "well domesticated" it may or may not be an issue. It's worth checking out at least.

sitruc7
06-09-2009, 04:25 AM
I hadn't thought of removing the other angels too, maybe I'll do that then.

Unfortunately the ph is high and the water is hard (my ph kit says its 7.4 or higher, I was planning on getting a better kit this week when I get supplies to set up the other tank.) If they don't do well I might see about getting an RO system to soften the water and lower the ph easier. Does this effect fry very much or just breeding behavior?

Thanks!

thatcichlidguy
06-09-2009, 05:03 AM
Adding some RO water at water changes will help soften it up, if you have a good LFS they will sell you RO water. Home systems can be expensive but are worth it if you plan to actively breed them in the future.

For the breeding behavior, it doesn't get changed the problem with the hardness is that it can cause the outer membrane of the egg to become impermiable to the males sperm and thus rendering the egg infertile. In captive raised fish that are many generations removed from their wild ancestors this isn't as big of a problem since they have had to adapt to their new conditions. Ones that could reproduce in harder water ended up being bred more than those that couldn't, so the trait is fixed in those populations. Still it won't be doing any harm to give them conditions that are closer to what Angelfish have evolved to live in in the wild. Even if you can't reproduce the Amazon (I know I can't), something close to it (relatively soft water ,and a PH around 6.5) will do them wonders. If they manage to spawn successfully in their current conditions then the fry will be fine. Also a temp around 82-86 degrees is great for them since they come from very warm slow moving streams and pools.

sitruc7
06-10-2009, 07:25 PM
Oh I didn't know that was why the hardness was important, it may turn out to be an issue then. The test kit I got puts the hardness at around 250 ppm. I think I'll remove the next eggs after the male attempts to fertilize them and see if they make it or not. If the eggs all turn white I'll try to soften it up. I think the water and ice stores (not sure if you have them but try and guess what they sell) fill up those 15-25g water dispenser jugs for cheap with drinking water, do you think that water would work or should I maybe get a gallon and test it?

The ph is also really poor, 7.6. Not much I can do about that(I think) with the water as hard as it is, but if I end up softening it that will make it easier to lower it (from what I've heard.)

The temperature stays between 82 and 84

Thanks again