Interesting article regarding water conditioner

[angc84]

I was searching the web today and found this nice article (http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2007/04/aquarium-water-conditioners.html)that compares a few water conditioners. As a side note, the author states that "ALL these types of chlorine/chloramine removing conditioners are Redox Reducers and thereby are helpful in maintaining a healthy aquatic environment by aiding in the removal oxidizing free radicals from the water; this why it is perfectly fine to add a full tank dose even if only 25% of the water is changed."

Is it a common knowledge? Am I the last one to know this? (blush)

[NanoTankGuy]

I was advised not to add too much, because it might break up chloramine into chlorine and ammonia...

[angc84]

Isn't that the idea?

[NanoTankGuy]

Isn't that the idea?
not really, cuz then you have your tank full of ammonia which the water conditioner does nothing to.

[angc84]

Um. I am a little confused here. Wouldn't it be better to have a full tank of ammonia than a full tank of chloramine?

[rich311k]

Once you have an established filter the ammonia disappears quickly. It is actually ammonium which is much less toxic. This is the reason you can get strange ammonia readings when testing your tap after adding dechlor.

[angc84]

Exactly. Beneficial bacteria would take care of the "ammonia" (or ammonium, converted by water conditioners such as Prime), but not the chloramine. You don't want chloramine in your tank water, given its stable nature and toxicity to fish? What is the argument here?

[Sharon]

I've always dosed the whole tank, after a water change...

[Fraoch]

Would the ammonia/ammonium produced be enough to overwhelm the biological filter?

I guess not, I don't think there's a huge dose of chlorine/chloramine in the water system. A few ppm at most. Some quick googling indicates 2-3 ppm.

[angc84]

So dose the entire tank after the water change?
I will start doing that. =)

[NanoTankGuy]

Exactly. Beneficial bacteria would take care of the "ammonia" (or ammonium, converted by water conditioners such as Prime), but not the chloramine. You don't want chloramine in your tank water, given its stable nature and toxicity to fish? What is the argument here?
No argument - you definitely don't want chloramine. Ammonium just causes bacterial bloom, which looks nasty, but is harmless. Severity depends on how much chloramine you have in your tap water and how large is the w/c.
I get cloudy water after every w/c - thinking of getting a UV sterilizer because there is ammonium in my tap water (not chloramine).
Oh yeah, and 2-3 ppm (for 1 day) was enough to kill most of the fish of one of forum's members.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to argue, just saying that neither is better - no additional ammonium, no chloramine. And as far as I know only excessive water conditioner breaks chloramine into chlorine and ammonia (correct me if I'm wrong!).

[NanoTankGuy]

Just started reading this article, they even say it in there "Another important point about aquarium water conditioners is that many basic water conditioners such as API Tap Water Conditioner, Start Right, and even slime coat additive conditioners such as Novaqua and Stress Coat will remove chlorine and break the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloramines removing the chlorine, however leaving the ammonia ions behind. If your water company uses chloramines (which is common in the Southwestern USA), be aware of this perform only 20% or smaller water changes in established aquarium"

[terrapin24h]

Just started reading this article, they even say it in there "Another important point about aquarium water conditioners is that many basic water conditioners such as API Tap Water Conditioner, Start Right, and even slime coat additive conditioners such as Novaqua and Stress Coat will remove chlorine and break the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloramines removing the chlorine, however leaving the ammonia ions behind. If your water company uses chloramines (which is common in the Southwestern USA), be aware of this perform only 20% or smaller water changes in established aquarium"

If you keep reading he also suggests using a better conditioner that gets it all, and goes on to mention prime. I think that is a big reasin why prime is so popular here on the board. That, and it's concentration. I changed from api because i read a similar article. There was a poll thread here on what conditioner people use and i noted that prime got a majority of the votes from senior members. I tried it and haven't gone back. Stinky stuff though

--chris

ps: I actually didn't realize prime whacks nitrate too. But i went to the product page and they say it does. I wonder if there's some way those of us whose budgets can't accommodate a mass spectrometer could test it.

[NanoTankGuy]

ps: I actually didn't realize prime whacks nitrate too. But i went to the product page and they say it does. I wonder if there's some way those of us whose budgets can't accommodate a mass spectrometer could test it.
Lol. How about a nitrate test kit? Or that's not gonna work? Test before, test after kinda thing.
Oh yeah and what is this magic Prime you speak of? I shall try it if it's so good :)

[angc84]

I feel that you missed my point entirely. I am going to stop posting about this matter.

[NanoTankGuy]

I feel that you missed my point entirely. I am going to stop posting about this matter.
Can you try to explain then, plz? I mean I'm here to learn and if you know smth I don't I'd appreciate if you tried to explain it to me (in private if you want).

[Fraoch]

Oh yeah, and 2-3 ppm (for 1 day) was enough to kill most of the fish of one of forum's members.

What I meant was, is this enough to be handled by the biological filter if it was all converted to ammonia? Given that this is the exact level you should add while fishless cycling, and that at the end of the cycle it's broken down in 12-24 hours, it should be OK. And, of course, most water changes are 25-50% so it won't even be that concentrated.

I just looked - Prime is pretty pricey around here!:ssuprised: I see no one mentions AmQuel+ though. I have some on hand, it's supposed to remove chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I get the impression AmQuel+ isn't regarded too well around here, and I don't know why.

[terrapin24h]

I just looked - Prime is pretty pricey around here!:ssuprised: I see no one mentions AmQuel+ though. I have some on hand, it's supposed to remove chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I get the impression AmQuel+ isn't regarded too well around here, and I don't know why.

I dunno about that, I recall from the same thread i spoke of earlier that amquel+ was right up there in popularity. I wasn't able to find any when i looked, and i've kinda grown used to the smell of prime(sick, i know) so i stick with it.


Lol. How about a nitrate test kit? Or that's not gonna work? Test before, test after kinda thing.
Oh yeah and what is this magic Prime you speak of? I shall try it if it's so good :)

I dunno if the nitrate test kit idea would work or not. It all depends i suppose on what exactly prime does to nitrate...Does it split it(if so then the test kit would show lower amts)? Or does it just bind to it(which may mislead a test kit) I'm currently checking my tank's nitrate build rate but when i'm done i'll do some playing.

angc--
Part of the good thing about this board is that the discussions can go in directions that you might not expect, especially when a good article like the one you linked to is posted. It gets people from different vantage points thinking and asking questions, which is what it's all about, so don't lose heart when something goes in a direction that makes you scratch your head a bit :) . To get to your original question, it *is* perfectly safe to dose your conditioner for the full tank volume when doing a water change, especially if you are using one of the higher end products(amquel, prime, etc). I used to be very precise with my water conditioner dosing until i had a tap water quality problem and the water company pounded the water chemicals. My tank ph plummeted, my cycle nearly died, and i lost 1/4 of my fish. Plus at the time, i was using a conditioner that broke the chlorine/ammonia bond but did not lock the ammonia, so my cycle related problems got worse. It was around that time i changed water conditioners and I believe prime helped me through that issue--At that point i knew what the water comapny was doing so I started dosing at a very high level doing water changes. Things returned to normal and to this day i dose for 50gal of water regardless of how much I change. While researching the prime/Nitrate relationship i came across this, and thought it was interesting. It would seem the higher end products aren't always assets:

http://www.fishlore.com/fishforum/aquarium-nitrogen-cycle-archive/17805-dont-use-prime-bio-spira.html

It's an old thread, but still gives us something to think about.

--chris

[Fraoch]

I dunno about that, I recall from the same thread i spoke of earlier that amquel+ was right up there in popularity. I wasn't able to find any when i looked, and i've kinda grown used to the smell of prime(sick, i know) so i stick with it.

AmQuel+ smells pretty bad as well, kind of like stale urine.:fish2:

I suspect it's some sort of sulphur compound that sequesters these chemicals...

[Alfcea]

So dose the entire tank after the water change?
I will start doing that. =)

Angc, what the article doesn't say is that reducing agents can be as toxic as oxidizing agents. Another thing that is not said is that when you add an excess of dechlorinator into a well oxygenated tank -oxygen being an oxidizing agent-, it is the oxygen that will react with the leftover dechlorinator (either sodium thiosulphate or others). This will have two immediate effects: 1, it will reduce the amount of available oxygen for your system (though not necessarily to dangerous levels), and 2, It will prove to be just a waste of dechlorinator and money. Personally, I have nothing against using a small excess of dechlorinator on every water change, but using enough to treat the whole tank every single time is a bit off the top, imho...

[NanoTankGuy]

Plus at the time, i was using a conditioner that broke the chlorine/ammonia bond but did not lock the ammonia, so my cycle related problems got worse.

That's what I think I'm doing right now (I guess this is why I got a bit too passionate about this thread) - I'm using Big Al's cheap water conditioner and I tried Aqua Safe as well, but!!! the more I add and the bigger the w/c is, the worse is the cloudiness :( So, I think I definitely need to change my conditioner so I can ante up my w/c... What am I gonna do with the old one? :)

Thx angc84, because had you not posted this article, I'd still be guessing what to do with the cloudy water following w/c. Btw, mine can hardly be called "normal", because it's supposed to clear up within a coupla hours --> takes mine a whole 24 hrs to clear up.

[Alfcea]

Thx angc84, because had you not posted this article, I'd still be guessing what to do with the cloudy water following w/c. Btw, mine can hardly be called "normal", because it's supposed to clear up within a coupla hours --> takes mine a whole 24 hrs to clear up.

One day of cloudiness is still normal... nothing to worry about. If you do your water changes at night, by the next morning, the water should be clear...

[Wild Turkey]

My suggestion would be to simply do smaller, more frequent water changes, which will reduce or eliminate the need for such ammonia to ammonium conversions, and give you the option of not using them, or at least not needing to in a pinch.
When dosing, I usually dose around 5-10ml extra (extra meaning in addition to what the directions call for) but i dont dose for the tank everytime on all my tanks, it gets expensive.

About the nitrates, Ive heard several people who use prime say they notice no difference. Its common from products to claim to do just a little beyond their abilities.

[Fraoch]

About the nitrates, Ive heard several people who use prime say they notice no difference. Its common from products to claim to do just a little beyond their abilities.

Like AmQuel+, it could be that the nitrate is still there and measurable but de-toxified.

[Alfcea]

which will reduce or eliminate the need for such ammonia to ammonium conversions,

The conversion from ammonia to ammonium is inevitable and happens all the time in any healthy tank. In fact, free ammonia can only exist at pH's higher than 9.2. Even at 9.2, half the ammonia will be present as ammonium. At lower pH's, it is much more so. At pH 7.2, the concentration of ammonium is 100 times higher than that of free ammonia and at a pH of 6.2 (such as black water) it is 1000 times higher....

... So, in a normal tank, there is always a conversion of ammonia to ammonium and the concentrations of the latter is higher (though dependent on the pH...)

[NanoTankGuy]

One day of cloudiness is still normal... nothing to worry about. If you do your water changes at night, by the next morning, the water should be clear...
That's what I mean by abnormal - if I do water changes at night then by next morning I have a huge bloom and it last for over all (w/c to clear) for about 24 hrs.
Now, I tested my tap water (as was suggested by smart ppl here) and I found ammonia!!! in it - that is in untreated tap water. So, I needed something to neutralize ammonia in water.

Went out and bought Prime today. See how it goes.

[Wild Turkey]

The conversion from ammonia to ammonium is inevitable and happens all the time in any healthy tank. In fact, free ammonia can only exist at pH's higher than 9.2. Even at 9.2, half the ammonia will be present as ammonium. At lower pH's, it is much more so. At pH 7.2, the concentration of ammonium is 100 times higher than that of free ammonia and at a pH of 6.2 (such as black water) it is 1000 times higher....

... So, in a normal tank, there is always a conversion of ammonia to ammonium and the concentrations of the latter is higher (though dependent on the pH...)

Im saying, you do not need to use a dechlor that converts ammonia to ammonia in most cases, just do smaller water changes, I stand by that statement. It seems like you may have misunderstood what I meant.

However, free ammonia not existing unless the ph is above 9.2 is incorrect, according to the calculators out there..

If my ph is 8.0, my temp 78, and my A 2.0, about 1.1 of that A is free ammonia.

[Alfcea]

What is A? At pH's lower than 9.2, the concentration of free ammonia is very low. In fact, at pH's lower than 7.2, it is so low that it is almost non-existant... though you are right. It is never zero

[angc84]

Im saying, you do not need to use a dechlor that converts ammonia to ammonia in most cases, just do smaller water changes, I stand by that statement. It seems like you may have misunderstood what I meant.

However, free ammonia not existing unless the ph is above 9.2 is incorrect, according to the calculators out there..

If my ph is 8.0, my temp 78, and my A 2.0, about 1.1 of that A is free ammonia.


Wow. So the Prime water conditioner's ammonia converting function is actually not essential? Tap water in my area is quite hard and is usually sitting at a stable pH8.5. Should free ammonia be a threat to my fish? I am very glad to hear that, since I've always been wondering if I should start using Prime to reduce ammonia's toxic effect on fish when a tank is first being set up, when a major water change is conducted, or when I replace old filter media with a new one (sometimes you cannot leave the biological filter and replace only the mechanical one).

Additionally, I do have access to a mass spectrometer (for determining DNA integrity, actually). I'd like to find out how to (or what wavelength to look at) when I test for ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate concentration. I was planning on doing a little research on that, but I've been overwhelmed with work. Has anyone attempted that?

[Fraoch]

Additionally, I do have access to a mass spectrometer

:surprised: Wow, the ultimate aquarium water testing instrument!!

Aquarium costs: $150
Testing and analytical equipment: $35 000
Blowing API liquid tests out of the water: priceless

:hmm3grin2orange:

[Wild Turkey]

A is an abbreviation for ammonia, most people use NH3, however i use "A" because the newer users will know what i'm talking about

Ang, Yes its not something you need even if you have chloramines. As long as you do small water changes, the ammonia in the tank should not be very high at all, and will be used up by the converting bacteria just like ammonia introduced naturally would be.

Sorry cant help with your toy though, not a clue

[Alfcea]

Additionally, I do have access to a mass spectrometer (for determining DNA integrity, actually). I'd like to find out how to (or what wavelength to look at) when I test for ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate concentration. I was planning on doing a little research on that, but I've been overwhelmed with work. Has anyone attempted that?

Angc, a mass spectrometer does not use wavelengths! It is not a spectrophotometer! Mass spec would actually be tricky to use in identifying nitrites and nitrates since these two are negative ions and mass spec is usually used to find positive ones. I'm not saying it is impossible, but tricky. The different fragments are separatedd by m/z and the magnets are aligned to separate positive ions (positive z...)

Now, if what you have is a spectrophotometer or colorimetre, (those ones do use light and you need to set up a wavelength) then it could be different, though I should say that as the inert ions they are, they are not easily observable either in UV or in visible light...

It sounds that, for the purposes you are using it, it is mass spectrometry (no light), and so the question about wavelength is irrelevant...

With a colorimeter, it is possible to meassure ammonia by transforming it into a complex with Cu. The complex [Cu(NH3)2]2+ is deep blue and very useful in analytical applications... I don't know the wavelength of maximum absorption, but it is not hard to find...

[angc84]

Oh I AM such a dumbass. I do have a spectrophotometer, and not a mass spectrometer. I totally got the names mixed up, since I needed to use the mass spectrometer in a chem lab. I am using my spectrophotometer mostly for checking DNA/RNA integrity. I haven't used it for any other things. Hehe. Thanks for the correction!

I've been wondering, though, if I can use my spectrophotometer to test my tank water. In this case, wavelength is relevant! =) It feels good to have someone as knowledgeable as yourself to seek advice from!

I am getting off work now. I will post in a little later.