Need some extra eyeballs..

[Zilla]

It has been a miserable day, but now that it's almost over, I can sit here and ponder. I keep having ammonia spikes in my 55 gallon and I for the life of me cannot figure out the cause.

55 gallon- planted- Vals, Swords, Crypts. Added today- Java Moss, Melon Sword, Rotala

Fishless cycle - It will be 5 weeks into the cycle this coming Sunday

pH- 7.4
Temp- 75
Nitrites-0
Nitrates- 15ppm
Phosphates-0
Iron-0
Calcium- 20 ppm
Ammonia- .20 <---- This is a spike. Before I went to bed last night it was 0.

Filters- 2 AC 70s

Filter one- Sponge, noodles, polishing pad
Filter two- Sponge, noodles
*Note- I did have a bag of Purigen and CupriSorb in filter two. I took them out this afternoon as a means of trying to figure out the source of the ammonia spikes*

Substrate- Eco-Complete & Black Sand

I stopped adding pure ammonia to the tank early last week as nitrites were climbing so high they would not register properly, while Nitrates have remained consistant for most of this cycle. I was told to add emergency doses of Prime to get Nitrites back under control along with partial water changes. This worked to get things back in line to where they should have been, but then I added filter number 2 and added the Purigen and CupriSorb to it.

All was fine until I noticed a haze developing in the tank a few days later which usually either means a ammonia spike or algae bloom. Knowing it wasn't a algae bloom, I checked filter number one and it was plugged up with dust and crap from the Eco-Complete as I had been playing with plants the day before. Rinsed everything out in a bucket with tank water. The haze cleared over night.

Cycle seemed to be back on track, so I left the tank alone, but continued to test it every morning. Now we're headed into the later part of last week/ start of this week. The ammonia levels are back to being all over the place and the haze is starting to reappear again.

I bought some biological / water conditioner ( AquaSafe w/ BioExtract) the other night. If nothing else I was hoping it would get the nitrites to tolerable levels and it did. But, now I have to wonder if it's messing with my ammonia tests. I've been using 2 different kits all day ( Red Sea and SeaChem) and both of them are telling me the same thing. Then I read the Purigen box and it said that water conditioners with stuff for slime coats can muck up the beads inside the bag.

This morning I did a partial water change, tested and the ammonia dropped to zero. After being gone for a couple of hours I checked it again when I got home and it spiked back up to the .15-.25 range. There has been no change with the Nitrites or Nitrate levels, so something is tripping the ammonia.

I don't leave dead leaves and such from plants in the tank. They are removed as soon as I notice them and I haven't been feeding "invisible fish" so there is no gunk to contend with.

For the record, I have a Q/T 20 gallon that I'm using to treat water in as I don't have any fish that require Q/T at the present time. In that filter I have noodles, CupriSorb and SeaGel. The ammonia levels in that tank have been spiking as well. That tank has a bare bottom, a HOB and a powerhead with a pre-filter. I've also used AquaSafe in that tank. Nitrites and Nitrates are stable, ammonia not so much.

Does anybody want to take a stab at this? Is it the AquaSafe? CupriSorb? Purigen? Although I only used the Purigen in the 55, so that doesn't help with 20 gallon mystery. The 20 gallon is clear and the 55 gallon is murky with a thick ammonia haze. The said haze doesn't have any real color, it's like fog in the fish tank. Neither tank smells, they smell like a fish tank should if that makes sense. LOL

[tetra_danio_girl]

You know, I don't use as many chemicals as you're using when I set up my tanks, so I don't know if any of them have any effect on what's going on.

I just treat the water with aquasafe, put it in the tank, let it run for a few days, then start the cycling process. For fish treatments during the process, I do water changes every few days and treat with stresszyme.

It doesn't make sense to me that you'd have AMMONIA spikes with no fish and not adding any ammonia.

I just got a bad test kit, though. So, you might want to take some water into the store to have them test it. I just took my test kit back and got a different one, and the readings are normal now.

[Zilla]

I no longer bring water samples in to be tested. The last time I did that they told me my copper levels were .25 ppm ( which is highly toxic) when actually it's 0.6 ppm.

I'm also aware of what a bad kit can do as PetCo sold me a bad Red Sea Master then called me a liar via telephone when I demanded a refund or exchange. Two weeks ago I was given Mardel Testing strips by the only LFS we now go to and those are showing everything that my liquid kits are, so they are not bad kits.

I don't know what is going on either, but the tank is still murky this morning and I'm about ready to drain it and start over. Before I do that, I'm going to call the LFS I go to, explain what is going on and see what they say. No more chemicals are going in the tank, and I suspect they are going to tell me to beef up the water changes and watch what happens.

In all the previous years that I've had tanks, I've never had these types of issues. My tanks always cycled in roughly 3 weeks and if there was a ammonia spike, I could usually pin-point the cause within minutes. I'm also going to either call SeaChem or leave a note in their message board and see where that gets me. I'll use my original post of this thread and cross reference it.

[Sharon]

I'd stop any chemicals, except dechlorinator, and continue bringing the Ammonia to 3ppm. Unless you have a REALLY good LFS, the advice given is probably wrong. When you rinsed the filter media, did you use dechlorinated water....

[Zilla]

It was tank water, so whatever was in the tank is what the filter media got rinsed with.

If by good you mean nothing like Pet Co, Pet Smart, ect... yes I like to think so. They're a small mom & pop business dealing with fish and fish issues for over 40 years. Their tanks are always spotless, never smell like funk and they have a awesome reputation.

[gm72]

I'll echo that there are an awful lot of non-natural elements in this tank right now that I would imagine are not helping.

[PostalPenguin]

Have you checked your tap water for ammonia and nitrites? I would continue to use the QT tank method of stripping the copper but stop using additives on the main tank.

I would ask the LFS store if you can have some used filter media. Since there tanks appear to be well maintained I would think their media would be safe to use, especially since it will be going into a fishless tank. It only has to be a small chunk since the bacteria will grow.

What temperature do you keep the tank and are you using an airstone? I have heard that bumping the temps up to ~82F and heavily oxygenating the water will allow the bacteria to grow faster.

[Zilla]

Too soon to tell if my gut instinct was right, but here's what I've done so far.

70% water change- Upon taking water out of the tank, I found the water had a yellow tint, was thick for lack of a better word and slimy. The slime factor was bugging me until I got to thinking about it. Regular ammonia has a slimy feel to it when it's put on a surface, then I was adding the water conditioner which is also thick and slimy. I'm surprised my plants didn't suffocate with all the heavy stuff in the water that they were being forced to process and filter.

Filter two had it's sponge squeezed to get all the junk out it. The water from that had the same yellow tint that the tank water had. Post water change I added a fresh bag of Purigen as there was no way to regenerate the first one, then added a carbon insert to filter 1.

Water parameters were checked once I was done.

I ran a 1/2 hour cleated copper test which came up showing no copper.

Ammonia ( also tested for a half 1/2 hour for free ammonia) is still high but that's to be expected. My tap water also has ammonia in it naturally, so I have to keep that in mind. Carbon and the Purigen should filter that out. If not, I'll look for alternatives that are void of the slim factor.

Nitrites remain at 0

Nitrates remain stable. My tap water also has nitrates in it, so that may or may not be helping with the stability of that.

pH took a hit. It went from 7.4 to 6.8 but I'm not going to worry about it. Crushed coral in the filter will beef that up if it drops much lower.

Beyond all of that, the tank looks and smells better although it didn't smell bad yesterday. Now I just have to wait and see what tomorrow morning brings. If it's clear after all AM testing, I should stop seeing the crazy ammonia spikes.

[fishbum]

If you are doing a fishless cycle,other than adding the ammonia,there is no reason to be changing water,or adding anything else to it.Let things sit for a few days,doing nothing but checking to make sure there is enough ammonia to keep the cycle going.Check it in the morning or at night,and then see where it is 12 hours later.If it is at 0ppm for 12 hours add,some ammonia and get the level up to 2 or 3 ppm.

[jackson17]

I no longer bring water samples in to be tested. The last time I did that they told me my copper levels were .25 ppm ( which is highly toxic) when actually it's 0.6 ppm.



Isn't .6 higher then .25?...

[Zilla]

Have you checked your tap water for ammonia and nitrites? I would continue to use the QT tank method of stripping the copper but stop using additives on the main tank.

I would ask the LFS store if you can have some used filter media. Since there tanks appear to be well maintained I would think their media would be safe to use, especially since it will be going into a fishless tank. It only has to be a small chunk since the bacteria will grow.

What temperature do you keep the tank and are you using an airstone? I have heard that bumping the temps up to ~82F and heavily oxygenating the water will allow the bacteria to grow faster.

Sorry I didn't see you post before I posted.

Tap water naturally has ammonia and nitrates. No nitrites.

I need to test the Q/T tank. Odds are it's going to undergo a massive water change and cleaning as I did with the 55. I will continue to treat for copper though.

No airstone and the plants don't like temps that high. They tend to droop and look like they are wilting. From what I can tell, the water gets plenty of movement as my plants are always swaying from the filter current. It's not extreme, but there is movement.

I did ask my LFS for filter media which they would have happily given me, but was coated with snails as they have snails in their 30 gallon display tank. They also have cherry shrimp in that tank so I would have had another mess to deal with.

[fishbum]

I did ask my LFS for filter media which they would have happily given me, but was coated with snails as they have snails in their 30 gallon display tank. They also have cherry shrimp in that tank so I would have had another mess to deal with.
Pest snails can be removed with traps,by hand,fish,or assassin snails.I wouldn't let that detour you from getting some media to speed things up.

[Fraoch]

I stopped adding pure ammonia to the tank early last week as nitrites were climbing so high they would not register properly

I'm very confused here. You say you're doing a fishless cycle, yet you stopped adding ammonia? Won't that kill off the ammonia->nitrite bacteria?

Your ammonia levels are too low for a fishless cycle, they should be at 2-3 ppm.


My tap water also has ammonia in it naturally, so I have to keep that in mind. Carbon and the Purigen should filter that out.

What does this Purigen do? Hopefully it doesn't remove ammonia, as that's the point of fishless cycling.

[Zilla]

I'm very confused here. You say you're doing a fishless cycle, yet you stopped adding ammonia? Won't that kill off the ammonia->nitrite bacteria?

Your ammonia levels are too low for a fishless cycle, they should be at 2-3 ppm.



What does this Purigen do? Hopefully it doesn't remove ammonia, as that's the point of fishless cycling.

Maybe this will help to make the picture alittle clearer. I was warned about this from my LFS and I ignored the warning, stupidly. I owe the guy we see all the time a Diet Coke and will buy him one next time I see him.

It's been several hours since I did my big water change.

Nitrites- 0
Nitrates- .15
Free Ammonia- 1/2 hour test- .15 It's coming down slowly like I wanted
Total Ammonia- 1/2 hour test- 5.0 which is down from earlier this morning

The Red Sea Ammonia test only tests for Free Ammonia and doesn't include a test for Total ammonia. If I understand these test results correctly, I should have stopped adding straight ammonia to the tank once nitrates showed up which was atleast 2 weeks ago.

The nitrites shouldn't spike as the tank is loaded with ammonia. There is no reason for me to add anymore or force what is there to cycle up or down. Purigen does remove ammonia and I want it to. There is no way I can add fish with a Total Ammonia level of 5.0.

I keep making the same typo for the copper test. It should be .06 and not .6.

[Fraoch]

Nitrites- 0
Nitrates- .15
Free Ammonia- 1/2 hour test- .15 It's coming down slowly like I wanted
Total Ammonia- 1/2 hour test- 5.0 which is down from earlier this morning

The Red Sea Ammonia test only tests for Free Ammonia and doesn't include a test for Total ammonia. If I understand these test results correctly, I should have stopped adding straight ammonia to the tank once nitrates showed up which was atleast 2 weeks ago.

This makes more sense, thanks. Yeah, 5 ppm is high during the second phase of the fishless cycle.

So you stopped adding ammonia, waiting for the level to drop. Got it.


Purigen does remove ammonia and I want it to. There is no way I can add fish with a Total Ammonia level of 5.0.

I presume you're using it temporarily to drop the total ammonia down to 2-3 ppm in order to establish the beneficial bacteria? Otherwise you're adding ammonia and removing it at the same time...which would make me confused again.:hmm3grin2orange:

[Zilla]

I presume you're using it temporarily to drop the total ammonia down to 2-3 ppm in order to establish the beneficial bacteria? Otherwise you're adding ammonia and removing it at the same time...which would make me confused again.:hmm3grin2orange:

Purigen controls nitrites, ammonia, nitrates. The difference between Purigen (other than it's cheaper and can be easily regenerated for repeated use) and other water conditioners is that is doesn't make things like ammonia levels flatline like the AquaSafe stuff was doing. Sure the AquaSafe was knocking the ammonia levels down, but it didn't fix the problem as the tank has ammonia overload. The only way to "fix" the problem was to ( and continue) to do water changes and get all the junk out of the tank that I was adding. This is why I kept having unexplainable ammonia spikes. I kept adding junk to the tank and didn't deal with the real problem.

The beneficial bacteria is already there and will continue to be readily fed until the Total Ammonia level drops to zero. Knowing what I know now, I probably killed my cycle to begin with because there was too much ammonia. If I had been testing for Free and Total ammonia all along, my tank should have been ready and completely cycled within 3 weeks.