Saltwater FO Tank. Question

[JaredCBell]

Currently, I have a brackish tank. The puffers in it are going to be moving to a new home soon so I was wondering, if I just happen to make it full salt, why couldnt I get ONE salt water fish to have in there? No live rock, no live sand, the tank has been set up for about 8 months now. I hear plenty of people on here saying you cant do this but I want to know why? thanks

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

It's not that you can't do it, but it is much more labor intensive and not the best way to start in the SW hobby. SW fish are a bit more sensitive to nitrates then most freshwater fish, Live Rock contains anaerobic bacteria which process the nitrate and keeps it to a minimum. Without the Live Rock, you will be doing more frequent water changes.

[rageybug]

You can do this tank but you will want to have VERY good filtration. A good choice for your tank (I don't know what size it is) might be a moray eel. Something like a snowflake can be a great choice. You will need to provide it with lots of hiding spots thoght so some rocks (dead or alive) is a good idea.

I'm not sure why you would want to go without LR unless it is a cost issue. You can buy base rock for cheap and add a few pieces of LR to seed it. Also, check out sites like craigslist for people selling LR for cheap.

[rageybug]

You can do this tank but you will want to have VERY good filtration. A good choice for your tank (I don't know what size it is) might be a moray eel. Something like a snowflake can be a great choice. You will need to provide it with lots of hiding spots thoght so some rocks (dead or alive) is a good idea.

I'm not sure why you would want to go without LR unless it is a cost issue. You can buy base rock for cheap and add a few pieces of LR to seed it. Also, check out sites like craigslist for people selling LR for cheap.


I think you have a 29g right? Too small for the eel... sorry...

[JaredCBell]

I think you have a 29g right? Too small for the eel... sorry...

ya too small. so if I add a little bit or live rock over time, wont that mess up my cycle and restart it back to basically...the beginning? My filter size for the size aquarium I have is good, VERY good circulation and filtration in there, along with the benefit of the 3 media filtration (Bio, Mech and chem).

So lets say I turn this to salt water. I get one fish of my choice in there. I can then add rock slowly, whenever I want? For some reason I was under the impression that you need to add the rock and then let it cycle through?

Also, is a protein skimmer completely necessary?

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

The protein skimmer is not an absolute necessity, especially in a FO system.

As for the live rock, well, there are a couple ways to go about this. First thing is understanding what it means to seed rock. Live Rock is "live" for a couple of reasons. First, it is live because it contains both aerobic and anaerobic bacteria for biofiltration. Second, it is live because it contains other higher forms of life such as copapods, feather dusters, bristleworms, and other such inverts. Both of these things play an important role in the marine ecosystem, but the bacteria is obvioulsly the most important, and really the only completely necessary element. Here's the problem, when exposed to air for a short period of time, those things begin to die off, and when you add that to your tank, you introduce ammonia. This leaves you with 2 choices. First, you can start with a couple pounds of live rock only, and then slowly add dry base rock. The key here is that it really needs to be dry to ensure there is nothing there to die off. At that point, there is no danger or messing with the cycle at all, it is really no different then adding new biomedia to a filter. The other way you can do it, is to add fully cured live rock, and add it in such a way as to completely avoid die off. This is a bit more tricky as you have to keep the rock completely submerged all the way from the store to your tank and you need to have your water parameters (salinity, pH, temp) either spot on to the store or at least very close. The inverts living in the rock are more sensitive to sudden changes then fish would be and will die off much easier. Personally, when I started my tank, I started it with live rock, and added the remainder of my base rock later. My tank was actually fully cycled when I added my base rock and there were no issues at all. Think of it like this, in a FW tank we have an external filter that contains the bulk of our bio and mechanical filtration, in a marine tank with live rock, the entire tank becomes the filter.

[rageybug]

if I add a little bit or live rock over time, wont that mess up my cycle and restart it back to basically...the beginning?


I did not mean to give you the impression that adding LR later is a good idea. You need to get your tank ready to go before adding fish, not after adding fish. Many people who start a SW tank for the first time don't understand how it works. ILMGB gave a good description of the LR curing. Many new SW people assume that adding a piece of LR is like adding a new decoration to a FW tank... just put in in and go. Not the case.... get the tank fully cycled and set up before adding fish or they will most likely die.

[JaredCBell]

ok so since this aquarium has been established as a brackish tank (with a SG of around 1.012) for about 6+ months now, and I have already swapped out the substrate for CC and upped the SG to 1.022, how long should it be before I start adding live rock? And should I get cured, seeded, uncured, etc.

I was reading about it last night, A LOT, and im kind of confused on what to do and what rock to get. I am waiting to put any fish in it but nothing I read really pertained to what you do if you have a matured brackish tank and you are just moving it up to saltwater.

My LFS has rock just sitting in aquariums ready to be sold, so should I just buy a couple pounds of that to start out with? And im wondering, since die off happens pretty much once you take it out till you put it back in your aquarium, would a good way to avoid that be to get the rock transferred like a fish? In a bag of water?

thanks for the help!


p.s. Can you collect ocean rock from like tidal pools and stuff or is this not advised

p.s.s. i see ILMGB addressed the transport question. thanks.

[rageybug]

You need to treat this tank as if it is a brand new SW tank. Having it set up as a brackish tank is the same as having it sitting empty.

It is best to add all of your LR at one time. I know this is often difficult due to the cost involved but you have a small tank and won't need too much LR. In your 29g, you are looking at 30lbs - 50lbs of LR... depending on how much you decide to use. If cost is an issue, I would get some LR and some base rock and throw it in the tank. You will need to give the tank a few weeks to cycle and then you are all set. The LR will seed the base rock for you and in about a year or so you won't be able to tell the difference between the two.

As far as the rock at your LFS, fully cured or uncured won't matter other than the time it will take for the tank to cycle. In a hurry? Get fully cured. On a budget? Get uncured. Just take a look at the prices and compare that to how the rock looks. If it has lots of critters and coraline algae on it, chances are it is good LR. Take a good long look at it before you buy. Look for aiptasia (glass anemone) and other bad guys. If they have bad things on their rock, you may want to pass on it because it is tough to get rid of a lot of bad things on the rock.

Take a look at online classified ads like craigslist. Many people will sell LR on there and you may get a great deal.

[JaredCBell]

You need to treat this tank as if it is a brand new SW tank. Having it set up as a brackish tank is the same as having it sitting empty.

It is best to add all of your LR at one time. I know this is often difficult due to the cost involved but you have a small tank and won't need too much LR. In your 29g, you are looking at 30lbs - 50lbs of LR... depending on how much you decide to use. If cost is an issue, I would get some LR and some base rock and throw it in the tank. You will need to give the tank a few weeks to cycle and then you are all set. The LR will seed the base rock for you and in about a year or so you won't be able to tell the difference between the two.

As far as the rock at your LFS, fully cured or uncured won't matter other than the time it will take for the tank to cycle. In a hurry? Get fully cured. On a budget? Get uncured. Just take a look at the prices and compare that to how the rock looks. If it has lots of critters and coraline algae on it, chances are it is good LR. Take a good long look at it before you buy. Look for aiptasia (glass anemone) and other bad guys. If they have bad things on their rock, you may want to pass on it because it is tough to get rid of a lot of bad things on the rock.

Take a look at online classified ads like craigslist. Many people will sell LR on there and you may get a great deal.

so what exactly is BASE rock? And how much live rock to base rock would you suggest?

Oh and quick question about powerheads. I was thinking about getting this one: [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] is this decent for a 29 gallon? And where would you suggest positioning it?

[coachfraley]

Base rock and live rock are the same type of porous rock. Base rock just doesn't have the live organisms that you will find on/in live rock. Base rock will often look white, when good live rock will have a foundation of corraline algae, which will make it purple/green/burgundy. Sometimes, base rock is sold dry, which can be a very good deal, because you don't pay for the water weight.

Live rock has the advantage of having a lot of hitchhikers, and base rock has the advantage of having no hitchhikers (this statement makes sense to SW people:hmm3grin2orange:)

I would go with as much LR as you can afford, but a 50/50 split would be fine.

Ragey said it all ready, but look at pictures of aiptasia, and get a good idea of what it looks like. If you see any of it in the store's LR tank, it is probably all over the place, and you might be advised to find rock someplace else.

I would rather have two koralia 2's, but one k3 would be quite a bit of flow for your tank. Your desired flow will depend on what you are going to keep.

[tim k]

Please don't take this the wrong way but if you do not know what base rock is then you have not done enough research to start this project.

It will save you a lot of money and a ton of grief.
The internet is an awesome source for info and its free.


Tim

[JaredCBell]

the saltwater pros at the LFS told me starting with a little matured cured rock and then adding over time is perfectly fine.

So for now I just got 5lbs of Fiji and 2 lbs of Tonga for 26 bucks.


next question: I will be moving in a few months. What is the best way to move a 29 gallon saltwater tank with, probably like 15 lbs of live rock, 15 lbs on Crushed coral. Should I just drain it, save the water, move the entire aquarium or take out everything and re assemble it all?

[rageybug]

the saltwater pros at the LFS told me starting with a little matured cured rock and then adding over time is perfectly fine.

So for now I just got 5lbs of Fiji and 2 lbs of Tonga for 26 bucks.





Sounds like the SW pros at your LFS have you covered... I'm out...

[JaredCBell]

Sounds like the SW pros at your LFS have you covered... I'm out...


lol dont be so sensitive. sheesh

[kaybee]

If the system was fully cycled at 1.012 SG for 6+ months and thereafter increased 0.002 SG weekly to 1.022 and maintained at that salinity for a month or so that system should be have a fully intact biological filtration cycle (especially if the puffers have been in the tank the whole time).

Incrementally adding cured live rock should be fine.

[JaredCBell]

If the system was fully cycled at 1.012 SG for 6+ months and thereafter increased 0.002 SG weekly to 1.022 and maintained at that salinity for a month or so that system should be have a fully intact biological filtration cycle (especially if the puffers have been in the tank the whole time).

Incrementally adding cured live rock should be fine.


puffers have been in there the whole time. SG was around 1.012-16 then just two days ago i bumped it up to 1.020 and then yesterday to 1.023. puffers are still in there and are doing wonderful despite what people would expect. then again... its only been a couple days...

is it safe to assume i killed the bacteria colonies with a sudden jump to full salt?

[kaybee]

puffers have been in there the whole time. SG was around 1.012-16 then just two days ago i bumped it up to 1.020 and then yesterday to 1.023...its only been a couple days...is it safe to assume i killed the bacteria colonies with a sudden jump to full salt?

I would think that in the 1.012-1.016 range there is concurrent SW/FW biological filtration going on (definately at the 1.016 SG in regards to the presence of SW beneficial bacteria).

Ammonia and nitrite readings would be your key indicator that the SW benefiicial bacteria aren't in sufficient numbers to pick up the entire biological load. I'd test those parameters daily for perhaps 7-10 days.

...puffers are still in there and are doing wonderful despite what people would expect...

Brackish puffers, specifically the GSP's are adapted to dwelling in water environments of varying salinity. If you purchased a GSP from a FW LFS tank you could drip acclimate it to natural salt water levels.

[JaredCBell]

I would think that in the 1.012-1.016 range there is concurrent SW/FW biological filtration going on (definately at the 1.016 SG).

Ammonia and nitrite readings would be your key indicator that the SW benefiicial bacteria aren't in sufficient numbers to pick up the entire biological load.



Brackish puffers, specifically the GSP's are adapted to dwelling in water environments of varying salinity. If you purchased a GSP from a FW LFS tank you could drip acclimate it to natural salt water levels.


ya they are hardy. the figure8's are what i am surprised are doing well in full marine conditions. especially a significant jump in the SG over two days