Im doin it,,,,setting up a brack tank .

[smaug]

Ok folks I have thought about it enough.I have the tank [58 gal oceanic show],I have a light [78 watt t-5ho],I have the research time in,I have a place to set the tank and most importantly I have permission from the wife!
I need a stand an in-line external 300 watt hydor eth heater,a rena xp-2 or 3 canister filter.Ill be getting this stuff together in a month or less.
My preliminary stock list is
2 archer fish
1 dragon goby
2-3 green spotted puffers
later,,,,, freshwater lionfish
because there will be a bit of land I want to try some crabs as well.
I will keep it loaded with ghost shrimp for food items,the archers will have low hanging branches to shoot crickets and such from.It will have root like driftwood for the goby and the lionfish to hide out in.I will be keeping it lightly stocked as I know the archers ideally need more room but I believe myself to be up to the task of keeping this tank healthy.I will do this thread as I have done my pond building thread by keeping you all up to date and maybe this could be informative for others to find and learn from my mistakes and successes.

[mommy1]

sounds really cool! looking forward to seeing reading all about it and seeing the pictures as you progress.thumbs2:

[Northernguy]

Thats a great plan smaug!:22:
It is in need around here!
Lotsa pics eh!thumbs2:

[smaug]

I realize there are other forums out there [gasp] where I could get more info on the subject but I have become to happy here to start in on another forum.I have become intersted in brack over the cource of a year and although the fish arent as pretty as sw stuff what they lack in beauty they make up for in cool.Archers are a very neat fish,I love the idea of my fish being into the same thing I am.Although I have never killed a cricket with a bow then ate it:18: I wish treerat was more active here ,there was a good bit of experiance there on the subject.

[splitadams]

that tank isnt big enough for 3 green spotted puffers they need 30 gallon alone, maybe 2, with no tank mates, plus gsp's will kill almost anything in the tank with it, very agressive, even sometimes to each other. also eventually some gsp's need full marine just incase you want to avoid that corner

figure 8's are more likely to leave tank mates alone and only require 15gallon each, so you could possibly stock the tank the same but figure 8's instead of gsp's

[troy]

What is the width of your tank? The archer fish can get a foot long and the dragon goby can get over a foot long. They need to be able to turn around and also that's a lot of bioload.

[Oscar_freak12321]

Good luck smaug! Let's see some pics after you get it set up, k? Again, good luck!

[Gayle]

I realize there are other forums out there [gasp]

There are? Hum, well they must not be as cool as this one since I have never heard of them! :hmm3grin2orange: :hmm3grin2orange:

I think it sounds like a really great plan Smaug! I can not wait until you get it started and we can see how it progresses!! Good luck! thumbs2:

[Dragon cqzzzzz<]

I just kind of skimmed this thread so far, so please forgive me if you already know this. A 58 gal isn't going to be enough for even a single violet (dragon) goby in the long run. They are known to exceed 24" in length when kept well.
If you want the goby, get a bigger tank, or know for sure that you will be able to upgrade to something nearly twice the size in the future. Also make sure the substrate is sand. Violet gobies like to dig, and gravel tears up their fins. I've seen puffers have the same effect on their fins too, so keep that in mind.
The toadfish/lionfish would probably also benefit from having sand as the substrate.

[smaug]

Granted I haven't kept archers,but I have yet to see one bigger then 8" and everything I have read and researched said that is about as big as they get in a tank environment.Thanks for the puffer advice,I am not stuck on the idea of any particular puffer.
as for the dragon goby ,this in an exert from an article on this very site
The Dragon goby (Gobioides brousonnetti) belongs to the family Gobiidae. This family is one of the biggest fish families and contains more than 2000 species. Most gobies are quite small and seldom grow larger than 4 inches (10 centimeters), but the Dragon goby can reach a size of 24 inches in the wild. When kept in aquariums, the Dragon goby will however seldom grow beyond 15 inches.I do not think that exceeds the capability's of my tank or tank keeping ability.The stonefish is not set in stone either as I will be adding theses fish archers first then puffers then goby.If it appears to me to be pushing the limits it will stop right there.There is a display tank in a local fish shop with near this same stock list and size tank,it has been up for years and they all seem rather healthy.Keep the ideas coming and thanks.
Troy:The bio load of the above would be far less then the tank I have currently in operation even taking into consideration the max full size of
2 archers-24"
3 smaller puffer 9-10" total
1 dragon goby 24"'
that is 58" the 58 I currently am running exceeds that by more then a foot.
realistically I would have
2 archers 16"
3 puffers 10"
1 goby 15"
equaling 42",,,,piece of cake.
I will be using sand,thanks for that advice whoever gave it.

[troy]

The inch of fish rule isn't accurate especially for larger fish. An 8" archerfish has way more bioload than 8 1" neon tetras. What is the width of your tank because you need to keep in mind that the goby needs to be able to turn around. Also just because the fish at the lfs are look healthy in that setup doesn't mean they are. There growth has probably been stunted.

[smaug]

True,but it is a good rule of thumb and a way to put things in perspective.Quality filtration ,correct aquascaping and good water management will make this project very doable.

[troy]

True,but it is a good rule of thumb and a way to put things in perspective.Quality filtration ,correct aquascaping and good water management will make this project very doable.
None of the experienced members on this forum go by the 1" per gallon rule because they alll agree that it is inaccurate.

[smaug]

I guess Im an exception to none of the "experianced" then .As I said ,it IS a good rule of thumb for "perspective".
Just a note to keep this thread on track.I really am not looking for an argument or for this to get heated in any way.I am providing this thread to keep track of my experiances with setting this tank up and the care and keeping of my chosen tankmates.I truly do appreciate constructive input and a healthy debate,so by all means give your input,keep it happy.

[smaug]

The inch of fish rule isn't accurate especially for larger fish. An 8" archerfish has way more bioload than 8 1" neon tetras. What is the width of your tank because you need to keep in mind that the goby needs to be able to turn around. Also just because the fish at the lfs are look healthy in that setup doesn't mean they are. There growth has probably been stunted.
Just saw this edit was done.Yes the fish are quite healthy and no they are no more stunted then any usually wild fish gets in the aquaurium.The examples go on and on.My angel for instance,he is almost 4 years old,he is about 9" tip to tip.He has been very well treated,fed better then he would he eat in the wild but because he is kept in a tank, this is about as big as he will get.In the wild they get lots bigger then that.Is it wrong I have kept him?Does that mean he is stunted?For the archers Troy,Have you personally seen any that are bigger then 8"?Ive seen at least a half dozen well kept archers,none of them exceeded 8" while most were 6-8".I ask this question in earnest from all the readers of this thread,Im looking for some experianced input as well as the anecdotal.

[troy]

No I haven't but that doesn't mean they can get bigger than that. What setups were the well kept ones kept in?

[smaug]

No I haven't but that doesn't mean they can get bigger than that. What setups were the well kept ones kept in?
It is a 70 gal tall tank with the same footprint as my 58gal.It is of course a brack tank,there are 2 common archers a hand full of puffers [forgive my ignorance of type],they have a drago goby that I guess to be a bit over 15".They also keep some of those so called freshwater flounders in the mix.It is filtered the same way I intend to filter my set up,they have had it this way for at least 2 years.

[troy]

That really isn't a good example because it has the same footprint as yours so you don't know if they will grow bigger in a larger tank.

[Oscar_freak12321]

I don't know....I think a dragon goby could go ok in there...?

[Red]

no clue about any of the fish and there size, but good luck with the setup!

[robnepper]

That sounds like an amazing set up. I have done some research on Brack tanks and yours will prove to be a very cool set up. I trust that you have the common sense and experience to give the best possible husbandry to your fishes. Good luck and pics pics pics!

[smaug]

That really isn't a good example because it has the same footprint as yours so you don't know if they will grow bigger in a larger tank.
Of course they would grow bigger in a bigger tank,Im not debating that.I dont have a bigger tank then this.My point was that the fish can and will be perfectly healthy if not totally filled out to the max.Kind of like 99% of all the fish we keep.Like my angel I have already admitted to "stunting" at the tiny size of 9" instead of the 11" he should be in the wild or a 100 gal tank.It will be fine Troy,I will be around for quite some time so we can all be witness to there growth.Ill keep ya posted.

[bluebluecow]

Hi

I think it will work great, I have had brackish fish in the past and loved them, didnt know they where brackish when I brought them and (yes you can slap my wrist) kept them in freshwater, with loads of bogwood. I had a mono and a scat, also had an african leaf fish in there and a angel, with variaous bottom feeders inc a mistake comon plec that was over 12inch when I took him to the lfs.

When I took my mono and Scat back, both had grown loads from when I brought them, they where brought maybe less then an inch, scat and mono when they where taken to the lfs where prob about 5-6inchs, maybe bigger, the lfs said that the mono was one of the biggest and healthest they ahd seen, so must of done something right or been lucky.

The only reason I took them back was that I wanted smaller fish and the leaf would of eaten them, also wanted plants and the scat was a BIG plant eater.

They where in my downstairs 4ft tank

Liz

[Flowcus]

that tank isnt big enough for 3 green spotted puffers they need 30 gallon alone, maybe 2, with no tank mates, plus gsp's will kill almost anything in the tank with it, very agressive, even sometimes to each other. also eventually some gsp's need full marine just incase you want to avoid that corner

figure 8's are more likely to leave tank mates alone and only require 15gallon each, so you could possibly stock the tank the same but figure 8's instead of gsp's

30 gallons alone to a GSP seems quite off to me, 30 gallon tank size perhaps for 1 yes. But if the tanks a larger tank with a good sized footprint I wouldn't say 30gallons of water per GSP. They are messy eaters but with good filtration and weekly water changes they will be fine. 2 to the setup that Smaug proposed wouldn't be a problem. Yes they can top out at 6" but in the 3 years I kept 2 neither of them were over 4.5". And as far as the aggression goes thats another thing that isnt entirely true. Its based off the indevidual personality of the fish... I kept 2 GSPs with a grip of mollies, bumblebee gobies, and 3 Figure 8s for 3 years without a single nip on any of the fish. Your best bet to get GSPs that will be compatible is to introduce 2-3 of them as juveniles around 1 to 1.5" and keep a close eye on them. If they get along fine as juveniles they will not develope a bad attitude as they age, and will generally stay passive for the rest of their lives. ( at least this is in my personal experience. ) And if they pick on each other or the other fish just return them to your LFS. Trial and error... Otherwise getting one Juvenile GSP and introducing it to a tank with similarly sized fish in it will increase your chances of keeping him happy, and not nippy.

I have a friend that keeps 1 3" GSP, 1 1.5" Figure 8, 2 3" Red Scats, and 5 Bumblebee Gobies in his Brackish tank. Not a single problem with any of them beating on each other, and their all very healthy and very happy!

Good luck with the Brackish tank Smaug! Not a huge selection of fish to keep, and their a lot of maitenance and cleaning. But definately some very interesting fish to keep! And just as a lil tidbit I kept my brackish at a SG of 1.012 +or- .002 everyone was healthy and happy until I had to take it down due to moving :22:

[Dragon cqzzzzz<]

[QUOTE=smaug]
as for the dragon goby ,this in an exert from an article on this very site
The Dragon goby (Gobioides brousonnetti) belongs to the family Gobiidae. This family is one of the biggest fish families and contains more than 2000 species. Most gobies are quite small and seldom grow larger than 4 inches (10 centimeters), but the Dragon goby can reach a size of 24 inches in the wild. When kept in aquariums, the Dragon goby will however seldom grow beyond 15 inches.I do not think that exceeds the capability's of my tank or tank keeping ability. QUOTE]

I've been researching this species for over three years now. There's probably no article you could quote that I haven't already read twice. One thing to take into serious consideration is that almost every article on the internet about this fish is wrong about something. I don't care what site it's from.

http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Oddball,%20Dragon%20Goby.htm

Go to that page. Part of the way down, there are pictures of a violet goby kept in an aquarium that grew larger than 24". It's a few years old. Most (if kept healthy) reach 15" very quickly. They live for over 10 years. Either be prepared for a monster, or don't get one.

P.S. The 1 inch per gallon rule is a load of crap. 10 guppies in a 10 gal=OK. 1 10" oscar in a 10 gal=Not OK.
This is especially true when dealing with puffers. Puffers are very messy and have a large bioload for their size.

[smaug]

[QUOTE=smaug]
as for the dragon goby ,this in an exert from an article on this very site
The Dragon goby (Gobioides brousonnetti) belongs to the family Gobiidae. This family is one of the biggest fish families and contains more than 2000 species. Most gobies are quite small and seldom grow larger than 4 inches (10 centimeters), but the Dragon goby can reach a size of 24 inches in the wild. When kept in aquariums, the Dragon goby will however seldom grow beyond 15 inches.I do not think that exceeds the capability's of my tank or tank keeping ability. QUOTE]

I've been researching this species for over three years now. There's probably no article you could quote that I haven't already read twice. One thing to take into serious consideration is that almost every article on the internet about this fish is wrong about something. I don't care what site it's from.

http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Oddball,%20Dragon%20Goby.htm

Go to that page. Part of the way down, there are pictures of a violet goby kept in an aquarium that grew larger than 24". It's a few years old. Most (if kept healthy) reach 15" very quickly. They live for over 10 years. Either be prepared for a monster, or don't get one.

P.S. The 1 inch per gallon rule is a load of crap. 10 guppies in a 10 gal=OK. 1 10" oscar in a 10 gal=Not OK.
This is especially true when dealing with puffers. Puffers are very messy and have a large bioload for their size.
As you say,you can go anywhere you want and find whatever info you want to see.Of course you cant keep an oscar in a 10gal tank,not only is that a ridiculous idea it is also an uncalled for and borderline insulting coment.This set up will work fine,I have yet to see any dragon goby or archerfish go to its full size in a normal aquarium environment.As for being prepared for the possibility of a monster,not a problem.I have the experiance to take care of this set up and the common sense to adjust as needed.Im sorry if I have missed it earlier in this thread,did you say you have kept this species [dragon goby}.If not ,I would like to clarify what I am looking for in this thread.I am looking for experinacedinfo regarding this type of set up.I know that earlier on I stated I was looking for all advice but I am getting way to much anecdotal and "I read somewhere" info.
Hi

I think it will work great, I have had brackish fish in the past and loved them, didnt know they where brackish when I brought them and (yes you can slap my wrist) kept them in freshwater, with loads of bogwood. I had a mono and a scat, also had an african leaf fish in there and a angel, with variaous bottom feeders inc a mistake comon plec that was over 12inch when I took him to the lfs.

When I took my mono and Scat back, both had grown loads from when I brought them, they where brought maybe less then an inch, scat and mono when they where taken to the lfs where prob about 5-6inchs, maybe bigger, the lfs said that the mono was one of the biggest and healthest they ahd seen, so must of done something right or been lucky.

The only reason I took them back was that I wanted smaller fish and the leaf would of eaten them, also wanted plants and the scat was a BIG plant eater.

They where in my downstairs 4ft tank

Liz
Thx Liz,that was very informative and is just the kind of experianced info I was looking for.It is very informative to have info like that.It lets people know that things do not have to be dot on perfect to have very good results.

[splitadams]

gsps get called pit bulls for a reason, at some point in theyre lives they WILL decide they no longer want tank mates, theyre aggressiveness grows with age, you may have been succesful for 3 years but it wasnt going to last a whole lot longer, try a couple more years and see how many tank mates he goes through, ive heard of people keeping them with figure 8s or ceylon puffers while the gsp was young but eventually had to seperate them. ive seen many questions in forums peoples asking why theyre gsp over night decided to kill every other fish in the tank after having tank mates for years,
and the response is always.... "because thats what gsps do".
basicaly gsps are predatory and you shouldnt ever really keep them with any other fish but theyre own species and even they can still decide to be aggressive to each other.


http://www.thepufferforum.com/forum/library/puffers-in-focus/an-introduction-to-green-spotted-puffers/

[Dragon cqzzzzz<]

As you say,you can go anywhere you want and find whatever info you want to see.Of course you cant keep an oscar in a 10gal tank,not only is that a ridiculous idea it is also an uncalled for and borderline insulting coment.This set up will work fine,I have yet to see any dragon goby or archerfish go to its full size in a normal aquarium environment.As for being prepared for the possibility of a monster,not a problem.I have the experiance to take care of this set up and the common sense to adjust as needed.Im sorry if I have missed it earlier in this thread,did you say you have kept this species [dragon goby}.If not ,I would like to clarify what I am looking for in this thread.I am looking for experinacedinfo regarding this type of set up.I know that earlier on I stated I was looking for all advice but I am getting way to much anecdotal and "I read somewhere" info.


My statement about the oscar and ten gal was hyperbole. The point is that the 1 inch per gallon rule is a load and can't really be applied to anything.

Yes, I do have a violet goby. The only reason it isn't over 15" long right now is that there were some problems with water params that caused it to stop growing. I'm hoping it recovers and starts growing again soon.
I haven't been giving you "I read somewhere" advice. "I read somewhere" is exactly how you came to the conclusion that the species only reaches 15" in captivity. I've given you actual evidence (with pictures) that they grow over 24".

If you "have yet to see any dragon goby or archerfish go to its full size in a normal aquarium environment," then you have obviously not followed the link I gave you in my last post.

[bluebluecow]

Not wanting to sound moany, but this is one of the reasons I get annoyed with this forum, OK everyone makes mistakes and yes we want the best for our fish, but some people are sojudgemental, and prechy. I thought that fish keeping was ment to be fun. BUT if I had followed this forum, from a kid, I would never of had the enjoyment of keeping some of the fish I have.

Yes I have changed how I keep fish now, and I have lots of small fish, but I am proberly overstocked, I never have followed the rule of inch, or done water testing, yet I seem to get few fatallities and happy healthy fish, maybe Im lucky. MY tank at the mo is the best ever, and the fish are happy, my mussels are still alive without target feeding them. I change the water every week, and now add dechlorinater (1st time ever as I never know about it)

Sorry to sound preachy myself.

But maybe we all have to relise that in the past we have made mistakes but the fish have done well

Liz

[Fishalicious]

Let's play nice guys! A lot of experience is gained from making mistakes unfortunately but they are the best lessons in life and it applies to every aspect of life.

Nobody is right or wrong here but it would be nice if things could be discussed in a respectful manner rather than slinging mud at each other.

:22: :22: :22:

[smaug]

Well in any case,what I should have said was I have not personally seen any dragon gobys in real life in a tank in front of me get past 15".Thank you for your info Dragon,as I did read the link but found it to be less then an ideal source especially since it reminds you to "Dragon gobies get this crud unless you add salt. Start with one teaspoon per gallon."Of course you would add salt,it is a brackish fish. There are other examples of this article/site being less then an ideal place to find info but Ill leave it to this one as it seemed to be an avg example of the type info it gave.
The 1" to gal rule is not a perfect rule of thumb,true,but like I stated earlier I don't quote it as being dead nuts.I also stated earlier that this thread is sort of my running log of this project and is not necessarily an information gathering tool.
The facts of my future brackish water tank is this so far
58 gal tank with a footprint of 36"wide by 18"front to back with a depth of 20"
a rena xp-2 or 3 canister filter
rena 300 air pump
300 watt hydor eth heater
78 watt t5-ho lighting
sand for substrate.
flat rocks and driftwood aquascaping.
2 archer fish
1 dragon goby
2-3 figure 8 puffers
freshwater lionfish [possible but not set in stone]
I will reiterate the desires I have for this thread.Anyone with actual experience keeping these fish please feel free to provide info and pictures would be awesome.

[Dragon cqzzzzz<]

I apologize if anything I've said came across as disrespectful.
Fishalicious-You're right that a lot of things in life can be learned from mistakes. A lot of the things I've learned about my fish personally have been learned from mistakes. But, I do believe that it's best to not make a mistake if it can be avoided, and I do believe that keeping a violet goby in a tank that small would be a mistake unless there are plans for upgrading in the near future.

[Flowcus]

I still say go for it Smaug... The footprints large enough to allow the goby to turn around for well over a year. And if it does grow 15" or larger then I am sure you could find someone to take him, unless of course you get yourself a larger tank and establish it as brackish :19:

Good luck with it, and can't wait to see pics! Hopefully some of the archers picking off a cricket or two. :18:

[smaug]

I still say go for it Smaug... The footprints large enough to allow the goby to turn around for well over a year. And if it does grow 15" or larger then I am sure you could find someone to take him, unless of course you get yourself a larger tank and establish it as brackish :19:

Good luck with it, and can't wait to see pics! Hopefully some of the archers picking off a cricket or two. :18:
Ya know,a dragon goby is one thing that allows it to make up for things.Its is eel like so turning around will not be an issue.I will be going for it and even if it does hit 15" that is not too small for my tank.Thank you for the support Flowcus.My peacock eel is in a tank identicle to this one and he is about 8 " and you wouldnt even know he is in there.Ive watched the dragons in few tanks my size with the correct aquascaping and they are doing quite well evn at 15".

[smaug]

I found these,I think this would look cool as an ornament/cave for goby hiding.Put the right other decor around it and it would look very natural.Sorry I havnt done anything with this project yet but my brand of busy has 2 tails at the moment.

[Northernguy]

That should look great? lolthumbs2:

[smaug]

Ok then,the more I look around the more I dislike the dragon goby,not for its possible eveuntual size but more for its behaviours.It simply seems rather boring.How about knight gobys?Has anyone kept them here?I have only done very minor research on them so far.

[Oscar_freak12321]

Hmm...I also have only done minor research on Knight gobies...I've seen them before and they look very pleasing and interact with you.

[Red]

Have you ever thought about having anableps smaug? Just a suggestion..

[smaug]

They have caught my eye on occasion but do not seem as interesting as archers for a top water fish.The whole project is on hold for the moment.No sense setting up a tank during the summer,Im never inside to enjoy it.The pond has my full attention.Thanx for the suggestion,they are a cool fish.

[Red]

Yeah I agree, just thought I would throw that out there for you, glad you are enjoying the pond :)

[smaug]

Ok,new plan.Seeing as how I have a perfectly good 20 gal tall tank left over from giving up my frogs I am going to set it up as a figure 8 puffer tank.I think 2 of these little buggers could do ok in there and it will give me a start to my brackish adventure without all the expense of a bigger tank.I already have the lights,filter,canopy and heater for this all I need is the sand substrate some ornaments and the puffers.Now to do some research on cycling a brackish tank.