Please Help!

[Aznxluck]

Hello, I am a student working on a fish project using the Jack Dempsey are our subject. We've gotten 2 jack dempseys of this type http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/universal-viewid434.html (the very bottom picture) we have kept our fish for about 2-3 weeks in a 20 gallon tank with heater,filter,a centerpiece, and a few plastic plants. The fish didnt seem to mind each other when we first bought them. Although around 2.25.07, one of the fish hides behide the filter. its very odd and the scales are black like its trying to camouflage, it also has turquoise dots on the gils. the other one is bigger in size and its scales are tan,yellowish, with turquoise dots on the gils. it seems to be bullying the other but my team mates are sure. we did some research and we may think that the other fish may be trying to kill the smaller one, or they're ready to breed. BUT the petsmart person said they're all one gender. please help my team is getting really confused and we dont want our fish to die!:confused:

[cocoa_pleco]

2 males may fight. They may be breeding. The hiding is from stress or possibly disease.

Whats your nitrite/nitrate/ammonia?

[Severus]

Sounds like it could be stress or they are fighting for dominance. JD's can be very aggressive and should be watched closely in such a small tank. How big are your two guys? Please provide your water parameters and we will be glad to help you through this.

[ahnyoungs2]

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[Severus]

Ok so here it is. The tank you have for your fish is to small. This could be stressing them out in a couple of ways. They could be stressed because of the physical size of the tank, they may still be getting acquainted with the tank and the fact that they cant escape one another and establish a territory could be contributing. Another possibility is that they might be exerting too great a bioload for your tank and throwing your water parameters out of whack. Larger Cichlids are messy fish and a 20 gallon with two JD's is going to require some serious maintenance (even if they are only 4"). Also fading colors is usually attributed to stress and your little guy is either stressed from being picked on or your water parameters may be out of whack. I suggest you get a Freshwater Master Test kit (if you dont already have one) and test your PH, Ammonia, Nitrites, and Nitrates. You always want your Ammonia and Nitrites to be 0. Nitrates are generally ok below 20 ppm. Your PH for a JD should be between 6.5 - 8. Hope this helps and good luck!

[Aznxluck]

I see, well my group talked it over just a bit and we are going to find another hiding place for the other fish. For now we only have the ph tester and it's around 6.7-7ph in the water, on the scale. We'll also see if we can get the Freshwater Master Kit for a very cheap price becaues we're on a budget, and we practically spent most of it. By tomorrow we'll give the full length,width, and hieght measurements since my friend only gave an estiment of the size. We'll also estimate the size of the fish. We're thinking of buying a divider but we're also not sure. Also thanks for the tips and contributing your time to help us. We really appreciate it :luxlove:

[Severus]

Well your ph is good. Buying a hiding place would be good to reduce stress on your little guy. All the aggression might blow over in a few days. Just keep your eye on them and if things get too out of hand then you can put the divider up.

[ahnyoungs2]

we cant get a bigger tank.

[Lady Hobbs]

An adult Jack Dempsey cichlid can grow up to 10 inches.

Was your tank cycled before adding them? You need to have a test kit to check for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels or these fish will die. The ammonia and nitrite are lethal to fish.

Your tank is 24" x 12" by 14" high. Too small for even one JD.

I have to tell you I am disgusted with your little experiment. Fish are a living, breathing creature that deserves better treatment than be crammed in a tank that's too small for them. Keeping fish is not cheap. They require decent food (not just cheap flakes) medications when needed, test kits to test the water so they don't die and whatever else comes.

I find it less than amusing these fish are suffering!

[Chrona]

What exactly are you testing? It doesn't seem very scientific if you didn't even do any background research on the fish you are keeping....

Furthermore, as far as I know, almost all schools up to even some colleges forbid experimentation on animals by students as part of the curriculum for precisely that reason. To legally do so, you would have to get all kinds of paperwork, as well as appropriate supervision.

At the very least though, thank you for actually asking for help. Some people won't even bother with that.

[Severus]

I would really recommend a bigger tank (even if everyone has to chip in out of their own pocket) so that you can have two healthy fish. What are you going to do with the fish after this experiment? Hopefully someone will gather as much info on them as they can and make them pets in a tank 75 gallons or larger (for the two).

[Lady Hobbs]

They should be returned to the pet store and feeder goldfish purchased for experimenting.

[Severus]

They should be returned to the pet store and feeder goldfish purchased for experimenting.

That is a good idea. Unless proper conditions and care can come about very soon

[ahnyoungs2]

what are you [hobbs] talking about??
this tank is the biggest we can have! it fills up the room that we are givin. its one of the biggest tanks in the class!
we were given a smaller tank [10 gallons] and we went through the trouble of getting the biggest tank we were able to get!
we are NOT experimenting on it. not injecting it with drugs or feeding it crap!
were trying OUR best to keep them healthy and happy.
we have made the temperature and ph suitable for our fish.
we used our money, and we already know that the cost of having fish is a lot!
WERE ASKING FOR YOUR HELP! why do you think we're asking? to keep our fish alive!

we know how big our fish will get! we have researched it and youre being really rude. your comment was no help at all and just made me frustrated.

[ahnyoungs2]

We Are Not Experimenting!

[Chrona]

Well, no offense, but if you researched how big Jack Dempseys get, you would have realized that at full size, they would barely be able to turn around in a 10g tank, much less live in one. If 10g is the biggest tank you can get, then I would highly recommend you return the fish and try smaller ones, because I can more or less guarentee that, without:

1) A larger filter (ie something rated for 50+ gallons, will need even more when the fish get bigger)

or

2) Daily 50% water changes (at the same temperature as the tank)

that the massive waste buildup in your tank will kill your fish in a week or two.
Even with the said measures above, jack dempseys are aggressive fish, and without more space, one will kill the other. Hiding spots won't do much, since you can't expect the guy to stay in there for the rest of his life. Not to mention the ethical issue raised. That said, it is still HIGHLY recommended that you do not keep this fish.


And how were our comments rude? We told you you need a larger tank, as would anyone on any other forum, or your fish would suffer and probably die. Since you said you can't afford a larger tank, then we suggested getting smaller fish. Is this not logical? We are merely stating the facts. You asked for help, we gave it. Theres no magical information that will allow you to keep 2 jack dempseys in a 10g tank with 10g-rated filtration.

By the way....what does this fish project involve? I don't see why you absolutely need jack dempseys...

[ahnyoungs2]

its not 10 gallons.

[Chrona]

My mistake. 20 gallons. Everything I said above still holds true.

[ahnyoungs2]

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[Aznxluck]

It's true that we're not experimenting on it. It's not what you "assume" our experiment is about the scale colors and what we feed it and how it reacts, of course we're on the feeding limit like lettuce, tetracichlids pellets, and we're thinking about other food but since this "experimenting" just kinda started a week ago we're not sure about the food just yet. We're for sure about the lettuce. Our other experiment is to ring a bell before feeding them. So its kinda like training them. Although we haven't started on that experiment, just the scale coloring. After we found that our fish was getting "bullied", we assumed that it was getting ready to mate or it was getting bullied, that was when we came for help cause the petsmart specialist didn't know if it was a male or female, so we weren't sure if they were ready to breed or not. Our tank is about the size that hobbs noted. Plus, we have given lots of thought into this project, and yes we all have chipped in our own money. Also hobbs, that was kinda rude since you really dont know the "experiments" that we're doing. you really were just sterotyping the word "experimenting". Anyways, we are getting a divider just in case and we are also getting a new hiding place for the little guy.

[Chrona]

saying that your disgusted?
we cant get another fish. or return ours.
we kepted it for over 2 weeks.

Why do you get offended so easily? Did I say I was disgusted? I apologized for a mistake I made in my post....


If you ABSOLUTELY cannot get a bigger tank or return the fish, then perform ammonia/nitrite/nitrate tests often, and do large water changes twice a week. Make sure you don't touch the filter or the gravel. Again, I repeat that this is a last resort, and will probably not work in the long run. Furthermore, put up a small rock wall in the middle of the tank to serve as a territory divider.

If the store moved, most other fish stores will accept fish (especially larger, more expensive ones) in decent condition in exchange for store credit, with which you can purchase new fish.

[Aznxluck]

Well, no offense, but if you researched how big Jack Dempseys get, you would have realized that at full size, they would barely be able to turn around in a 10g tank, much less live in one. If 10g is the biggest tank you can get, then I would highly recommend you return the fish and try smaller ones, because I can more or less guarentee that, without:

1) A larger filter (ie something rated for 50+ gallons, will need even more when the fish get bigger)

or

2) Daily 50% water changes (at the same temperature as the tank)

that the massive waste buildup in your tank will kill your fish in a week or two.
Even with the said measures above, jack dempseys are aggressive fish, and without more space, one will kill the other. Hiding spots won't do much, since you can't expect the guy to stay in there for the rest of his life. Not to mention the ethical issue raised. That said, it is still HIGHLY recommended that you do not keep this fish.


And how were our comments rude? We told you you need a larger tank, as would anyone on any other forum, or your fish would suffer and probably die. Since you said you can't afford a larger tank, then we suggested getting smaller fish. Is this not logical? We are merely stating the facts. You asked for help, we gave it. Theres no magical information that will allow you to keep 2 jack dempseys in a 10g tank with 10g-rated filtration.

By the way....what does this fish project involve? I don't see why you absolutely need jack dempseys...


Well, we were given the fish at random, well we chose at random from the teacher. oh and we bought the youngest fish they had at petsmart. we are also only keeping the fishes for about the rest of this school year so only about a few more months. we understand that it grows up to about 7-10 inches and are awared of it. :)

[Chrona]

It's true that we're not experimenting on it. It's not what you "assume" our experiment is about the scale colors and what we feed it and how it reacts, of course we're on the feeding limit like lettuce, tetracichlids pellets, and we're thinking about other food but since this "experimenting" just kinda started a week ago we're not sure about the food just yet. We're for sure about the lettuce. Our other experiment is to ring a bell before feeding them. So its kinda like training them. Although we haven't started on that experiment, just the scale coloring. After we found that our fish was getting "bullied", we assumed that it was getting ready to mate or it was getting bullied, that was when we came for help cause the petsmart specialist didn't know if it was a male or female, so we weren't sure if they were ready to breed or not. Our tank is about the size that hobbs noted. Plus, we have given lots of thought into this project, and yes we all have chipped in our own money. Also hobbs, that was kinda rude since you really dont know the "experiments" that we're doing. you really were just sterotyping the word "experimenting". Anyways, we are getting a divider just in case and we are also getting a new hiding place for the little guy.

I see. Keep in mind though, that fish coloration is highly dependent on the surrounding environment. At this point, your fish are extremely stressed (particularly the smaller one that is picked on), and so food will not make much, if any difference in coloration. It is only when the basic needs are met that you can really tell.

What do you plan on doing with the fish when your experiment is done?

[Chrona]

Well, we were given the fish at random, well we chose at random from the teacher. oh and we bought the youngest fish they had at petsmart. we are also only keeping the fishes for about the rest of this school year so only about a few more months. we understand that it grows up to about 7-10 inches and are awared of it. :)

So....what happens after school is over?

[Aznxluck]

I see. Keep in mind though, that fish coloration is highly dependent on the surrounding environment. At this point, your fish are extremely stressed (particularly the smaller one that is picked on), and so food will not make much, if any difference in coloration. It is only when the basic needs are met that you can really tell.

What do you plan on doing with the fish when your experiment is done?

Oh well then we'll see what we can do. One of our member's family wants the fish so they'll be keeping it. If they dont near the end of the year, we'll try you idea of selling back to a store.

[Aznxluck]

So....what happens after school is over?

Umm what exactly do you mean? Like After school, the year ending? or after school as in go to school then leave in the afternoon?

Oh well nvm this post >.> this was answered.

[Chrona]

Umm what exactly do you mean? Like After school, the year ending? or after school as in go to school then leave in the afternoon?

I meant the school year. Why not try returning the fish now? As it is, it's not a very good experiment, since there are so many other factors effecting fish coloration that change on a daily basis (ie, stress from small tank, bullying, water parameters) that any results would be meaningless. You could try guppies or platies, which are much smaller, easier to take care of, and still have great coloration that varies. From a scientific standpoint, the fish should be isolated so that they do not influence each other. Coloration change occurs fairly slowly, so you would feed one group of guppies Hikari food, while feeding the other group a lower quality (but still good) food like Tetra.

[Aznxluck]

I meant the school year. Why not try returning the fish now? As it is, it's not a very good experiment, since there are so many other factors effecting fish coloration that change on a daily basis (ie, stress from small tank, bullying, water parameters) that any results would be meaningless. You could try guppies or platies, which are much smaller, easier to take care of, and still have great coloration that varies. From a scientific standpoint, the fish should be isolated so that they do not influence each other. Coloration change occurs fairly slowly, so you would feed one group of guppies Hikari food, while feeding the other group a lower quality (but still good) food like Tetra.

Apparently, our teacher wants "variety" >.> tetras and guppies are taken already. I dont think that platies are taken. but im also not sure if he'll let us change fishes since he did his "observation" last friday or so. Is selling back ONE fish alright? because if we are able to sell it, we can just keep a good eye on one of them. Jeez.. im hating this already :(

[Chrona]

Apparently, our teacher wants "variety" >.> tetras and guppies are taken already. I dont think that platies are taken. but im also not sure if he'll let us change fishes since he did his "observation" last friday or so. Is selling back ONE fish alright? because if we are able to sell it, we can just keep a good eye on one of them. Jeez.. im hating this already :(

Talk to your teacher. If he/she has any shred of ethics, she/he will let you return the fish and get platies. Make sure to tell the teacher that Chrona from Aquaticcommunity says she/he is an idiot for throwing Jack Dempseys in the same lot as tetras and guppies.

Argue from a scientific standpoint if that doesn't work. Tell her what I posted above, with the variables and whatnnot. Maybe the teacher is one of those nutjob scientists that don't give a $hit about animals.

If it's still a no-go on platy, then returning one fish is definetly a good idea. 20g still isn't enough for a JD, but it's better than 2 JD in there. At the very least, it will get rid of the aggression factor.

Also, and this is key, do NOT overfeed your fish. More feeding = more waste = worse water conditions.

[Aznxluck]

Talk to your teacher. If he/she has any shred of ethics, she/he will let you return the fish and get platies. Make sure to tell the teacher that Chrona from Aquaticcommunity says she/he is an idiot for throwing Jack Dempseys in the same lot as tetras and guppies.

Argue from a scientific standpoint if that doesn't work. Tell her what I posted above, with the variables and whatnnot. Maybe the teacher is one of those nutjob scientists that don't give a $hit about animals.

If it's still a no-go on platy, then returning one fish is definetly a good idea. 20g still isn't enough for a JD, but it's better than 2 JD in there. At the very least, it will get rid of the aggression factor.

Haha! ^^ well that was funny xD well yeah not many people like him. well, we'll try to argue from the scientic point, if he doesnt agree, we'll take back one of the fish

[ahnyoungs2]

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thank you chrona for your help.

[Chrona]

:flipa: :flipa: :flipa:





----- ---
thank you chrona for your help.

That's not necessary. From what you posted, it seemed to me that you were performing "experiments" on fish as well. Next time, clarifying exactly what you are trying to do will prevent misunderstandings. And while I agree that the experiment you have planned is perfectly ethical, the setup is not, so don't be too full of glee.

[ahnyoungs2]

oh geez
is that how it came out?
its not to you. im serioulsy thankful for your help

[Chrona]

I know it's not for me. Hobbs is a very well respected member of our forum and we don't tolerate posts like that.

[Lady Hobbs]

Thanks Chrona. :)

Ahnyoungs.....sorry if I offended but I have pretty strong convictions when it comes to fish that are not cared for correctly. I blame this on your teacher who apparently knows nothing about fish and is leaving it up to the class to figure it out. She should have done her own research and come up with a list of fish that equal the size tanks that you have to work with.

Perhaps her plan is to only have the fish for a short while and that may explain why she would recommend such large fish for a 20 gallon?

Anyone can learn about fish if they take the time to sit at the computer and are willing to give several hours of reading time. Did your teacher instruct any of her class about cycling a tank the fishless method prior to adding them or did you just fill the tank up and drop the fish in?

I'm glad your "experiment" is with fish and not dogs or she probably would have recommend at Boxer for a poodle cage.

I am not upset with you. You are a kid and are learning this stuff. But you should have gotten better advice from your teacher. Am I to understand here that it's up to you kids to buy the tanks, the food, the test kits and all this stuff yourself?

[Aznxluck]

Thanks Chrona. :)

Ahnyoungs.....sorry if I offended but I have pretty strong convictions when it comes to fish that are not cared for correctly. I blame this on your teacher who apparently knows nothing about fish and is leaving it up to the class to figure it out. She should have done her own research and come up with a list of fish that equal the size tanks that you have to work with.

Perhaps her plan is to only have the fish for a short while and that may explain why she would recommend such large fish for a 20 gallon?

Anyone can learn about fish if they take the time to sit at the computer and are willing to give several hours of reading time. Did your teacher instruct any of her class about cycling a tank the fishless method prior to adding them or did you just fill the tank up and drop the fish in?

I'm glad your "experiment" is with fish and not dogs or she probably would have recommend at Boxer for a poodle cage.

I am not upset with you. You are a kid and are learning this stuff. But you should have gotten better advice from your teacher. Am I to understand here that it's up to you kids to buy the tanks, the food, the test kits and all this stuff yourself?

well, the only thing that he told us is that Before we just dump in the fish, leave it in the bag and then put the bag with the fish in the water so the temperature stablizes for about 20 mins or so and also to not buy the fish then leave it in the bag with its original water. He does have a somewhat knowledge of what to do. he also did this project with the past years before us. well thats the only thing he really told us :P nothing about cycling and such. Oh and also dont mind ahnyoungs XD she was in a bad mood that today at school >.>

[Lady Hobbs]

What you should do is print out an article about cycling a tank and showing it to the teacher. He'll figure out you probably know more he does already. LOL

Here's a good post written by one of our members about the whole process.
http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=2678

This is a very common error but since this is a teacher and been doing this for a while, he should know better by now.

Good luck with your fishies.

[NWMountainTroll]

Considering that they are only keeping the fish for a few months in 20 gallon tanks, I don't see why size has any relativity to the situation? Sure they will get 10 inches eventually, but for the time period they are keeping it in the tank I'd think it would be fine. ?? Anyone want to correct me on this one?

The issue is with aggression, which seems to be the case here as the tank is not big enough for them to set up territory. And if I read that first post correctly, the poster realized this and wanted to confirm it with us and then take corrective action.

So why is everyone getting so mad about this?

[Chrona]

It was just a misunderstanding about what the "experimentation" was about.

[NWMountainTroll]

Oh I see. Funny though, keeping a tank is pretty much a big long experiment.

[Chrona]

Yes, but "experimentation" has that negative sound to it. Also, if someone came on the forums and said that they were keeping a 20g fish tank for themselves with 2 JD, we'd probably yell at them too :)