I've searched and read, and read, and read...

[Variansyn]

Hi All,

First, I'm entirely brand new to the forum and for the better part of 4 days, caught up on as much via the search feature as possible. Most of my reading was finished up tonight and man, I've got a headache. I'm fairly smart, at least I like to believe so. We had tanks as kids growing up (fiance and I) and I figured with as much research as possible, patience, I'd get there. I eventually want to get into salt. But I've done about 2 months of research and more reading than I think I did as a Huskie for college.

I started up a freshwater tank I bought March 9th of this year, scrubbed it down, decorated, got the process on it's way. It's a TruVu 55 Gallon Aquasystem. I decided to Cycle with Fish, as I was having surgery in a few days and didn't want to miss those key situations in a fishless cycle. Flash forward a month plus later, it seems like I'm going through hell and back. Bare with me, I've been keeping a log and the problem goes better with dates for you higher ups I believe.

March 11th, I added a "cycle start" product I can't remember the name of, but is easily attainable. I also added 8 healthy feeders. Water was at 78 F.

March 16th , I saw my Ammonia go up to 1.0ppm, Nitrite and Nitrate were sitting at 0ppm. Water was also at 78F.


Now my next test, wasn't done until the 31st. Again, what I had tried to avoid I ended up doing even with this method of cycle. Sort of sucks, I was left feeling worse off than what most claimed an achilles repair to be...

March 31st - Ammonia : 2.0ppm Nitrite : 0ppm Nitrate : 0ppm PH 7.6 (LR), 7.8 (HR)

Here's the bonehead noob part (I've already been lovingly scolded by a few local shops that know my family), on April 8th, we did a 25% water change while cleaning debris from the gravel. I scrubbed the back wall due to what I believed to be Algae. Now after consulting my local friends, after the scolding of how I possibly axed my bacteria, I was referred to a bottle of SuperBac Nitrifying Bacteria. I poured this in on April 11th, made sure the UV was off and left things alone.

April 15th, I noticed the water was somehow crystal, like beautifully clear. However, I had also gotten my Pentair Scratch RemovalKit. The previous owner had told me minor scratches that couldn't be seen, until from the right side I noticed his issues with removing live rock from the tank. To say we were displeased, is a bit of an understatement. I had swirls all over, blocking the view area. I removed them successfully, however the water was cloudy for 1-2 days afterwards eventually clearing up.

Prior to the scratch fixing, my levels were :

Ammonia : 3 - 4.0ppm
pH : LR 7.6 HR 7.8
Nitrite : 0ppm
Nitrate : 0ppm

So here we are, the 22nd with no change. I haven't touched the water save a top off of some stresscoat treated water I leave to sit overnight. I've cleaned the acrylic occasionally with my magfloat, but nothing else.

I'm sort of at a crossroads. I want to get this tank up off the ground and I'm wondering (reading at various other forums)if I somehow killed off what bacteria growth I was starting to get ? Did I totally bork the cycle and now I'm in the first stage all over again ?

I've been pondering the complete tear down and doing a fishless cycle (to of course save time), also in the complete removal of scratches and some hardware adjustment (moving UV to overflow chamber with seperate pump), then just starting it up and watching it more carefully now that I'm at the end of my healing process from my surgery.

Ideas, thoughts, suggestions ? I welcome them all. My lady is going crazy, she wants our sons fish in the tank already - while she's gotten attached the feeders (she overfed them for a week). So yeah, thanks in advance. I'm seeking whatever input you may have :22:

Link to the tank (http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x34/variansyn/DSCF3812.jpg).

[fins_n_fur]

A couple of suggestions that require more reading:

1. Click on the ebook link in my signature. This will give you a good overview of understanding in more detail what a cycle is and how it develops as a refresher.
2. Read the three cycling related stickies in this part of the forum (you may start with those are they are easier reads). You cannot miss them as they are at the top of the list and titled in red.

Then, decide if you wish to cycle with or without fish. Most of us prefer fishless as it's easier on us and for sure no stressing/killing our fish. If you go with fish cycle and want to use bacteria booster type product, most folks would suggest to use Tetra's Safe Start cycling product as it seems to be the only that actually works well for most users. Having said that, if you stock your 55 slowly adding new fish every couple of weeks, and keep up with the needed testing of parameters and water changes, the bacteria colony will slowly grow to match the additional bio-load. In a large tank, it takes a while for the water to become toxic. In a smaller tank, toxins develop and build up quite quickly which cause unneeded stress on the fish and often leads to disease and/or death.

If you go for a fish cycle, you have got to be prepared to test your water parameters often and do water changes often to keep ammonia and nitrites under 1 ppm. When you do a water change during a fish cycle, you do not clean anything in the tank nor do you clean any part of the filter. This, as you have seen, sets you back.

Let us know how we can help further.

[gabbyguppy]

<I haven't touched the water save a top off>

You have pretty high ammonia levels. When doing a fish cycle, ammonia should be at 1.0 or below....especially with a pH of 7.6.

I also did a cycle with fish, but it required daily water changes to keep the ammonia levels in check.

It took three months to cycle my 30 gallon tank.

Thankfully, I didn't lose any fish in the process.

Karen

[Glub]

I want to get this tank up off the ground and I'm wondering (reading at various other forums)if I somehow killed off what bacteria growth I was starting to get ? Did I totally bork the cycle and now I'm in the first stage all over again?

Well, you were registering ammonia before the cleaning, but weren't registering any nitrites, or nitrates... So the 'good' news is that you never really got anywhere in the first stage anyways...

So to answer your question about starting from the first stage again, no... Not really... :11: :hmm3grin2orange:

To put it in perspective... After a month of keeping fish, you made about as much progress as you would have made with a fishless cycle in just a few days.


My lady is going crazy, she wants our sons fish in the tank already - while she's gotten attached the feeders (she overfed them for a week)

The bacteria that eats the ammonia is the faster growing bacteria, so if you think it's taking a long time to see the ammonia going down, wait 'till you're watching the nitrites. Nitrite eating bacteria wont start establishing itself in your filter until you have ammonia eating bacteria established and producing those nitrites. I wont blindly guess at how long a cycle will take to complete using fish, but I've heard stories of it taking up to and over 6 months in some instances, and don't think I've ever heard of it completing within 1 month.

On the other hand, my fishless cycle only took about 3 weeks from start to finish, and I didn't use any air stones to encourage the nitrite eating bacteria.

As a side note, I feel I should mention that feeder fish make bad pets. Especially in community tanks. There's a reason they labeled goldfish as a feeder species. They get big, they eat a ton, and they make a huge mess and produce a lot of waste while they're at it. Not many people want, or should want them in their aquariums.

Mind you, I know there are goldfish keepers on these forums who are VERY pleased with their fish, so they have their niche as pets... But they really aren't for everyone, and they're often considered more appropriate for ponds than aquariums. Don't attempt to keep these fish under the idea that they're just ordinary low-maintenance community fish like guppies.

So... With all this taken into consideration, I think if I were in your shoes, and I didn't have my heart set on keeping gold fish, I would return the fish, set up your equipment as you want it, and start your cycle over without fish. Odds are pretty good that a fishless cycle would still happen faster than the cycle you've started would take to finish, and unless you planned for it the fish you have now will probably just end up limiting the number of fish you can keep with their large bioload, and causing headaches for you down the road. So that's my opinion, you don't have much to lose by emptying the tank and starting over, and it would probably be faster in the long run if you did.

But get as many opinions as you need, I don't want to be solely responsible for you taring everything down and then regretting it when you begin to view the administration of ammonia to a virtually empty aquarium for the jaw dropping adrenaline rush it really is.

[Fraoch]

How are the fish doing? At 4 ppm ammonia, and above 1 for so long, it's amazing that they're still alive. And your pH is fairly high, that makes ammonia even more toxic. What type of fish are they?

What's your temperature? Keep it as high as the fish will safely tolerate. Also oxygenate the water with an airstone.

Also use that "cycle start" product. Which product is it?

Most of your bacteria are in the filter. Cleaning the bottom and sides doesn't help, but it's not the end of the world.

[Northernguy]

Welcome to the Fabulous AC!
Reading is a great start.
There is a product that will help your situation and its called Tetra Safe Start. It will speed up your cycle but you still have to watch those perameters.
The first thing I suggest is a large water change! You have to keep those levels down.
Your ammonia should stay as close to 0 as possible.
Your nitrites will be rising after your ammonia drops.More water changes.Once daily is good.Cycling with fish takes longer and needs many water changes.
Good Luck!

[Variansyn]

A couple of suggestions that require more reading:

haha, I know you can never read enough. Thanks for the link, I'll go over it today. I've read both threads at the top of the page as well.


If you go for a fish cycle, you have got to be prepared to test your water parameters often and do water changes often to keep ammonia and nitrites under 1 ppm. When you do a water change during a fish cycle, you do not clean anything in the tank nor do you clean any part of the filter. This, as you have seen, sets you back.

Let us know how we can help further.

Thanks, I've figured as much. I wasn't told to add more rock or take anything out, at the time I figured it wouldn't be a problem. Ah, this is looking like a more costly one. Thank you btw. :)


As a side note, I feel I should mention that feeder fish make bad pets. Especially in community tanks. There's a reason they labeled goldfish as a feeder species. They get big, they eat a ton, and they make a huge mess and produce a lot of waste while they're at it. Not many people want, or should want them in their aquariums.

Mind you, I know there are goldfish keepers on these forums who are VERY pleased with their fish, so they have their niche as pets... But they really aren't for everyone, and they're often considered more appropriate for ponds than aquariums. Don't attempt to keep these fish under the idea that they're just ordinary low-maintenance community fish like guppies.

So... With all this taken into consideration, I think if I were in your shoes, and I didn't have my heart set on keeping gold fish, I would return the fish, set up your equipment as you want it, and start your cycle over without fish. Odds are pretty good that a fishless cycle would still happen faster than the cycle you've started would take to finish, and unless you planned for it the fish you have now will probably just end up limiting the number of fish you can keep with their large bioload, and causing headaches for you down the road. So that's my opinion, you don't have much to lose by emptying the tank and starting over, and it would probably be faster in the long run if you did.

But get as many opinions as you need, I don't want to be solely responsible for you taring everything down and then regretting it when you begin to view the administration of ammonia to a virtually empty aquarium for the jaw dropping adrenaline rush it really is.

Glub, when we picked up the feeders they weren't picked up as pets but to start the cycle. I was also told by quite a few people (local stores as well) with the amount of waste goldfish feeders could produce, they'd be an ok fish to start the cycle off with. Definitely not a fish I want to continue having in my tank past that and most definitely not the type of fish I want in my tank for the long run.

Trust, my undying need for scratches inside outweighs anything in my possible teardown of the tank.


How are the fish doing? At 4 ppm ammonia, and above 1 for so long, it's amazing that they're still alive. And your pH is fairly high, that makes ammonia even more toxic. What type of fish are they?

What's your temperature? Keep it as high as the fish will safely tolerate. Also oxygenate the water with an airstone.

Also use that "cycle start" product. Which product is it?

Most of your bacteria are in the filter. Cleaning the bottom and sides doesn't help, but it's not the end of the world.

The fish (goldfish feeders) are actually doing great, early on at lower levels of ammonia mind you, 2-3 fish died. We replaced them and continued on. As we speak, they're surfing the current and just asking for a bite to eat.

The temperature is at 78 F currently. We were looking towards keeping a tropical tank, advised of a 77-78F as most tank bred would do just fine. Even with the pH, but by all means - if there's something different of I'm being told something wrong I'm all ears. I've also been oxygenating with an air stone in the overflow chamber / accessory side for awhile. it's currently on a low setting, recommend anything higher ?

[Fraoch]

The fish (goldfish feeders) are actually doing great, early on at lower levels of ammonia mind you, 2-3 fish died. We replaced them and continued on. As we speak, they're surfing the current and just asking for a bite to eat.

Those are TOUGH fish!:ssuprised:


The temperature is at 78 F currently. We were looking towards keeping a tropical tank, advised of a 77-78F as most tank bred would do just fine. Even with the pH, but by all means - if there's something different of I'm being told something wrong I'm all ears. I've also been oxygenating with an air stone in the overflow chamber / accessory side for awhile. it's currently on a low setting, recommend anything higher ?

78 is good. And more oxygenation is better, put it as high as you can. The only thing holding you back is excessive current/turbulence, but that's when you have it in the tank. You have it outside the tank, maximizing it won't hurt.

[Variansyn]

Those are TOUGH fish!:ssuprised:

Also why I questioned my test kit : API Freshwater Master Test


78 is good. And more oxygenation is better, put it as high as you can. The only thing holding you back is excessive current/turbulence, but that's when you have it in the tank. You have it outside the tank, maximizing it won't hurt.

I just turned it up to full, so we'll see where it goes. I just have to mention as well, I'm not opposed to going forth with the tank and seeing if it actually does come to face, instead of tearing it down. I know it takes patience, but like I stated previously, I feel I borked the cycle completely.

[Fraoch]

Also why I questioned my test kit : API Freshwater Master Test

That's generally considered the gold standard - they're very accurate. You have to follow the directions though, make sure to add to the line, add exactly the amount of reagent listed (8 drops for the ammonia test, from each bottle), shake and wait exactly 5 minutes. You should also shake the reagent bottles a bit before you use them too.


I know it takes patience, but like I stated previously, I feel I borked the cycle completely.

Just don't clean your filter. Cleaning your tank walls and gravel did set you back a bit but cleaning your filter would have been a lot worse.