Cycle with Fish... and plants?

[drudogg]

I have a new 30-gallon tank and I added two fish (Black Skirt Tetra). This is day three, and the ammonia level is at 0.2... still 0's for the others. So its just starting, but I was planning on adding some java fern or java moss to the tank anyway. Should I do this while the tank is cycling? I've done some research online already, and from what I've read is fish first to establish the aquarium, then plants. But plants can be benificial for water quality right? So wouldn't it seem logical to add some plants right away to help balance everything out? Especially if they are hardy plants like the java's? Anyone out there with some experience in this area? Thanks in a advance for any advice.

[bushwhacker]

go ahead and add your plants you may want to add a few mor fish also as two arent going to produce enough ammonia to really get it started.. just be sure you test every day and be ready to do 50% water changes as needed

[chipper]

water changes and more water changes when you cycle with fish. I did it with my 55gallon and it was a pain in the %$#. now cycling my 30 gallon without fish

[nwnittany]

I don't think adding the plants will hurt anything and will make the tank more interesting while you cycle.

From what I understand, the main way the plants help the tank biology is by consuming nitrates, which you won't see until the end of your cycle. So, I don't think they will be of great help in the early parts (the tough parts) of your cycle. I guess there are some potential residual benefits if some leaves die, etc and their decay produces some ammonia, but I don't think this will be significant.

I agree with the earlier post - test your water and do water changes if the ammonia or nitrates get too high. I've read that changing the water can slow the cycle some, but you'll need to do this to minimize the stress on the fish...

[Kaz]

It's fine to add them, personally I recommend adding some java moss while cycling. It helps reduce srtress in several ways.

(Btw, from the other thread the siamese algae eater is fine, at this point it's just which one you like more, I've seen some cool looking yellowish BN plecos)

[drudogg]

Thanks everyone for the advice. Think I'll be getting some Java Moss at the LFS this week sometime. The relatively empty tank is driving me crazy, and I know I shouldn't add any more fish yet! :)

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

From what I understand, the main way the plants help the tank biology is by consuming nitrates, which you won't see until the end of your cycle. So, I don't think they will be of great help in the early parts (the tough parts) of your cycle.

Actually, plants can be useful at the very beginning and once your cycle is established. Plants can use nitrogen from both ammonia and nitrate.

There is a technique that has been dubbed "Silent Cycling." In this technique, the tank is full planted and then fish are added. The plants end up using most of the ammonia that is produced, and the rest is used up by the bacteria that is being established. Using silent cycling, if you do it properly, you will never have any detectable levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.

[drudogg]

Ok, that's just cool! How would you keep the plants alive before the fish were added? I'm assuming to become fully planted, you'd have to wait a certain amount of time before adding the fish. Do you know where I could read more about this "Silent Cycling" thing? I'm curious - obviously too late for this tank as I already have the fish, but for future reference. Thanks.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

No, it's not too late at all. You put the fish and the plants in at the same time. You just need to add a good number of plants so that the ammonia uptake equals the ammonia output of your fish.

[bushwhacker]

yup you want very fast growing stem plants

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Not necessarily. You simply need a biomass sufficient to handle the bioload. If you only plan to use a few plants then they are the way to go, but if you want a well planted tank then you can use pretty much anything that will grow in your tank.

[drudogg]

The light I have currently is a bit on the low side wattage-wise, so I was going to go for some Java Moss and Java Fern to start with.. Are these good plants for this purpose?

[nwnittany]

Actually, plants can be useful at the very beginning and once your cycle is established. Plants can use nitrogen from both ammonia and nitrate.

There is a technique that has been dubbed "Silent Cycling." In this technique, the tank is full planted and then fish are added. The plants end up using most of the ammonia that is produced, and the rest is used up by the bacteria that is being established. Using silent cycling, if you do it properly, you will never have any detectable levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.

Thanks - this is good to know.....I've always heard/read that plants were mainly useful for helping keep nitrates in check.

[10lbBass]

There is a technique that has been dubbed "Silent Cycling." In this technique, the tank is full planted and then fish are added. The plants end up using most of the ammonia that is produced, and the rest is used up by the bacteria that is being established. Using silent cycling, if you do it properly, you will never have any detectable levels of ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate.


Wow. That is pretty cool. How long does said silent cycle take? How do you know when it is ok to add fish?

[CGY_Betta_Guy]

I am currently fishless cycling my very first tank right now and waiting for my nitrites to finally drop. My current cycle is with plants with no fish and I am currently starting into week 3. My nitrites spiked after only 5 days and the creation of the bacteria that eliminates the nitrites is apparently the longest of all the steps. I posted a pic of my tank on a forum local to me and someone suggested I try a silent cycle since I have so many plants in the tank. I probably wont since I am so close to having the cycle complete. Here is a link for a silent cycle (http://http://www.aquahobby.com/articles/e_silent_cycling.php) they posted for me. Had I known about it I probably would have just gone that route even though my cycle has been fairly quick.

If you decide to give it a try please let me know the results as I am quite interested.

[Wild Turkey]

Yup! Gb has it right, you can add the plants right now and some people attempt and even accomplish a "silent cycle" with them. A few plants arent going to do much, but they could help keep the levels down for you a bit during the cycle process which means less hose and bucket work for you.

However to be clear we are talking about A LOT of plants for a true silent cycle and the slower growing the more you will need of course. You can plant the tank using any cycle method as long as you have the ability to grow plants so theres no reason not to do both IMO. Otherwise you can end up doing a fish cycle with plants instead of a silent cycle.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

However to be clear we are talking about A LOT of plants for a true silent cycle...Not necessarily. The biomass of the plants used simply needs to be able to handle the bioload of the fish in the tank. If you just start with 2-3 small fish in a 30gal tank then you would not need as many plants as you would for those same fish in a 10gal or 20gal. Silent Cycling is not a static method, it has to be adjusted for every tank situation. :)

[Wild Turkey]

Not necessarily. The biomass of the plants used simply needs to be able to handle the bioload of the fish in the tank. If you just start with 2-3 small fish in a 30gal tank then you would not need as many plants as you would for those same fish in a 10gal or 20gal. Silent Cycling is not a static method, it has to be adjusted for every tank situation. :)

I agree, however I dont want to give users the idea they can stock a tank normally with plants and never have to grow the bacteria. For example, how many plants would I need for 10 tetras in a ten gal? Probably more than would fit, but its quite a bit. And if I start with 2, and it works, when I add the next 8 I will be cycling.

If you start with 2-3 and their bio-load is taken care of by the plants, when you add more fish you will have to grow the bacteria and monitor the levels, just like in a fish cycle.

So a better way to put it would be
"never having to grow the bacteria (cycle the tank) is very rare and requires either very high plant stock, low fish stock, or both."
Because of that I never recommend silent cycle as an efficient means of cycling for new keepers, 99% of the time they are going to end up doing a cycle with fish anyway.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

So a better way to put it would be
"never having to grow the bacteria (cycle the tank) is very rare and requires either very high plant stock, low fish stock, or both."
Because of that I never recommend silent cycle as an efficient means of cycling for new keepers, 99% of the time they are going to end up doing a cycle with fish anyway.
No, that would be a wrong way to put it. You always grow the bacteria, even in silent cycling, and as such is a completely safe way for any aquarium keeper to start a tank, beginner or experienced. The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate simply do no reach detectable levels, but the bacteria still grows.

[Wild Turkey]

No, that would be a wrong way to put it. You always grow the bacteria, even in silent cycling, and as such is a completely safe way for any aquarium keeper to start a tank, beginner or experienced. The ammonia, nitrite and nitrate simply do no reach detectable levels, but the bacteria still grows.

I disagree that adding plants and fish is a safe way for an inexperienced keeper to start. Its a fish-cycle. Its foolish to gamble the safety of his fish on his luck/ability to keep his plants healthy as a beginner.

As for the growing bacteria, what i said was taken out of context. The bacteria always grows, but you do not have to grow it in the true silent cycle (where those levels never get high enough to notice) however, if your bio-load exceeds what the plants can use by any noticeable amount, its a fish cycle. In a fish cycle, you need to grow the bacteria to save your fish(thats what i mean, grow it.)

I still recommend choosing another cycling method for beginners. Considering someone who cultivates a tank full of plants long before adding any fish is no beginner imo. Nothing wrong with adding plants with any method.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

"never having to grow the bacteria (cycle the tank) is very rare and requires either very high plant stock, low fish stock, or both."


You were not taken out of context at all. You said it right there plain as can be. It's not just very rare, it is straight up non-existant. The bacteria will always grow weather there are few plants, lots of plants, or no plants.

The bacteria always grows, but you do not have to grow it in the true silent cycle See above statement for why this is wrong.


Its foolish to gamble the safety of his fish on his luck/ability to keep his plants healthy as a beginner.
That's not our call to make. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving the beginner the info they need so they can make the informed decision. We are their information providers, not their decision makers. If you don't want to give them the information then that's fine, that's your decision, but I will give it to them, and from there it is their call. It is a perfectly viable option for any beginner who is willing to put the time and work into it. It's obviously not for the lazy beginner.

[drudogg]

Saying I'm going to gamble the safety of my fish based on my ability to keep plants healthy is a bit much. I don't think putting plants in an aquarium would ever replace taking regular water readings. With or without fish, monitoring water levels continuously is a must in any cycle, silent or otherwise. Those readings would detect any suddent spikes and immediate water changes would result. I don't think beginners would be gambling anything trying this method.

I do consider myself a beginner, but don't think its a gamble to try something that may lessen the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate spikes while the tank cycles. From what I've learned so far, any cycle is hard on fish, and to lessen this impact, perhaps we all as fish-keepers should consider these methods FOR their safety.

[Wild Turkey]

You were not taken out of context at all. You said it right there plain as can be. It's not just very rare, it is straight up non-existant. The bacteria will always grow weather there are few plants, lots of plants, or no plants.
See above statement for why this is wrong.


That's not our call to make. There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving the beginner the info they need so they can make the informed decision. We are their information providers, not their decision makers. If you don't want to give them the information then that's fine, that's your decision, but I will give it to them, and from there it is their call. It is a perfectly viable option for any beginner who is willing to put the time and work into it. It's obviously not for the lazy beginner.

Again you took my statement out of context Gb, im not going to argue symantics with you, what i mean is easy enough for anyone who wants to see it. Im not here to argue with you every other post. I used the word recommend several times for a reason.

I agree drudog, you virtually agreed with my every point. Im saying, its not a good idea to give the people the idea they can just add a bunch of plants and fish and not expect cycling problems, i.e a cycle with fish. I wasnt referring to your situation directly.

[drudogg]

... We are their information providers, not their decision makers...

As a beginner, I certainly appretiate as much information as possible, so I can make informed, smart decisions about fish-keeping. Thank you, ILuvMyGoldBarb for helping to provide this to me.

[drudogg]

I agree drudog, you virtually agreed with my every point. Im saying, its not a good idea to give the people the idea they can just add a bunch of plants and fish and not expect cycling problems, i.e a cycle with fish. I wasnt referring to your situation directly.

It is extremely frustrating to me that several 'experts' in these types of forums assume that things have to be 'dumbed' down so people won't mis-interpret them. There may be a fraction of people on here that would interpret it that way, but honestly, I think they are by far the minority. I really think you need to give people more credit than that.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

what i mean is easy enough for anyone who wants to see it. Not true. Your statement, as it was worded, is plain wrong.

In the same sentence you say that "the bacteria always grows and that you don't have to grow it in the silent cycle." The only thing that is clear there is the self contradiction.

The only reason I'm keeping going is to clear things up. You want beginners to have accurate info, so let's make sure it's clear and that they are getting it.

You are acting like it's being suggested that the tank be fully stocked with fish at the same time, however that has never been stated. Again, that goes along with giving them the information they need to do things right.

[Wild Turkey]

It is extremely frustrating to me that several 'experts' in these types of forums assume that things have to be 'dumbed' down so people won't mis-interpret them. There may be a fraction of people on here that would interpret it that way, but honestly, I think they are by far the minority. I really think you need to give people more credit than that.
I didnt know that discussing them in detail was "dumbing it down".


GB, one more time. You growing bacteria is not the same as bacteria grows. Its symantics, and implies only a willingness to argue. Im not "acting" like anything, i said what i meant, you are putting words in my mouth. X amount of plants supports X amount of bio-load, once you increase that bioload, you have a fish cycle.

I simply expressed my opinion about silent cycling on this thread, nothing more.

[Kaz]

Given that the original question was about whether he could put some plants in the tank while it was still cycling I think that this extended discussion, While intresting, is getting more irrelevant with each post. By the way things look I don't think that Drudogg or anybody else for that matter are going to attempt silent cycling at least not without serious probing on the plant section.

whew, I feel kind of weird after telling 2 of the most well liked people on this forum what to do.

In fact I think I need to sit down.(and pray)

[Wild Turkey]

Given that the original question was about whether he could put some plants in the tank while it was still cycling I think that this extended discussion, While intresting, is getting more irrelevant with each post. By the way things look I don't think that Drudogg or anybody else for that matter are going to attempt silent cycling at least not without serious probing on the plant section.

whew, I feel kind of weird after telling 2 of the most well liked people on this forum what to do.

In fact I think I need to sit down.(and pray)

Well said and quite appropriate. A statement best said standing up, back straight ;)

Thanks for the compliment,
and I agree, and if anyone wants to discuss cycle methods via pm or another thread I invite anyone to do so, but I am going to take Kaz's advice and let this lie.

[drudogg]

Well, I think I will "gamble the safety of [my] fish..." and add some plants to my aquarium to try and achieve a "Silent Cycle". I'm not sure I will succeed entirely as there is already ammonia levels in the tank. A water change and the addition of the plants might just do the trick, I hope. I feel I owe it to my fish to try and lower their stress as the tank cycles. Thanks to everyone who helped me discover "Silent Cycling" as an option. Wish me luck. :)

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

After this statement
You growing bacteria is not the same as bacteria grows. nothing needs to be said, as people here are intelligent enough to see the problems with it.


Given that the original question was about whether he could put some plants in the tank while it was still cycling I think that this extended discussion, While intresting, is getting more irrelevant with each post.

I agree that some things started to get into the irrelevant, however the option of silent cycling was given, and it is quite relevant to the original question. The original poster actually inquired further about the process. The insuring discussion resulted because someone felt the need to "correct" my statement, and in doing so made the statement inaccurate. This discussion is about an option that was given, and making sure the information provided is accurate and clear.

However, for anyone who wants further information on the topic of silent cycling, feel free to drop me a PM. I'll be happy to give you the information you need to complete the process.

[Wild Turkey]

To the op: When i said "he" i was speaking hypothetically, i was not referring to you or your situation, merely to comments made about silent cycling. I should have said "he/she".

There are obviously some miscommunications on this thread, but the feelings of the OP are most important to me next to the health of their fish. Sorry for the offense if you took any, it was not intentional.