Endler's Livebearers vs Guppies

[SamandAnne]

I'm curious of something...

Does anyone know how to tell an Endler's livebearer from a guppy? If you bought one, would you be able to tell the difference?

I think the spots on both are very neat, and I'm just curious.

Thanks!

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Endlers are a guppy. There is no taxonomic distinction.

[Eileen]

Endlers are not a Guppy. The care is identical to a guppy. Endlers can interbreed with Guppies but you should keep the endlers pure. Alot of Guppies are mixed with wild endlers. They are smaller in size grows to about 1" when full grown. Here is a web site that has alot of wild and exotic hybrid endlers.
[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

I bought a Tiger/hybrid endlers from e-bay because I could not find them in my area. I started out with Black bar endlers but since rehomed them on craigslist to raise the Tiger endlers. Because the endlers are smaller in size you can get away with having more in a small tank. They also do well together with Red cherry shrimp as they are small. I have a 6 gal. Just with male endlers in it and red cherry shrimp. I have another 5 gal. with just female tiger endlers. Guppies are alot bigger. Do a google on endlers with more information. Take a look at my Guppy information thread I posted also under livebearers.:fish: :fish: :fish:

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Eileen, you need to do a bit more research. The Poeser article classified Endlers as a seperate species, however Poeser was proven to be in error for the second time. Dr. Felix Breden, who has done extensive work with Endlers at "both at the morphological and DNA levels" outlined the reasons for Poeser being wrong at the April 2007 meeting of the ALA (American Livebearer Association). The six main reasons that Poeser was in error were published in the September issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. Here they are.

1. No real gonopodial differences between Cumana Endler's and guppy populations exist. This is necessary for taxonomic speciation among livebearers.
2. No DNA differences exist when comparing Cumana Endlers to guppy populations and guppy populations to guppy populations to warrant a new species.
3. Melanophore patterns are not criteria for speciation.
4. Coloration differences are not criteria for speciation. Poecilia are polymorphic by nature.
5. Behavioral differences can only be classified if a companion group is compared and done so over many generations.
6. The Cumana guppy/Endler's livepearer hybridizes with other guppy populations frequently. Indeed there is little to no natural barrier to hybridization in the wild.

As Dr. Breden also pointed out, the Endler is a "unique race of guppy, perhaps 'on the edge' of speciation... but the criteria for speciation have not been met. Furthermore, he also stated "that taxonomic status is often used for conservation puposes. The polluted habitat of Endler's livebearer, including one site that may now be devoid of them, is well known." However, that said, they still have not been granted true species status.

I highly recommend you read the article in the September 2007 issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. It is in the Livebearers Unlimited column, authored by Dr. Ted Coletti, Director of the American Livebearer Association.

No matter how much hobbyists may want Endlers to be a seperate species, they simply are not, they are still just a guppy.

[DrNic]

That's great info! I had heard a little about this at one of the local aquarium meetings I went to a while ago but at the time I hadn't read all the info.

[Eileen]

Thanks for the information. You are right! You learn something new from this forum everyday.

[SamandAnne]

Thanks for all the information! I saw some "feeder guppies" that had some interesting spots at the pet store, that really caught my eye, and it made me wonder about the Endler's and guppies. Thanks! Too bad there isn't a straightforward way to conserve these guys...even if they are the same species!

[Taurus]

I didn't know that.

[Wild Turkey]

No matter how much hobbyists may want Endlers to be a seperate species, they simply are not, they are still just a guppy.

All true but i wanted to highlight that little bit in particular to agree withthumbs2: They are guppies. Ive been looking for a place to buy both males and females for a while, so if anyone knows..

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

I have 4 females if you want the WT. :)

[Wild Turkey]

I have 4 females if you want the WT. :)

I might just take you up on that. Let me finish moving stuff around and see what ive got to work with

[SamandAnne]

Hi...so, since they're guppies, I'm wondering also...

I heard sometimes that Endler's (let's call it a variety!) doesn't eat their young. Is that true? Are there any other differences that people see in Endler behavior? I'm wondering because I've had a bully male guppy that I've taken back to the store lately, and one that would go after our female platy and caused significant fin damage. I'm wondering if Endler males have this possibility, too? They look so interesting...how are they in community tanks?

Thanks everyone!

[Red]

I would just have some java moss for the babies or some live floating plants..

[Eileen]

I have 5 wk. old Tiger/Hybrid endlers and yesterday I put 12 of the 25 born in with the male. He did not even bother them. He just does his little mating dance in front of the babies. I plan on keeping just males in one tank after the endlers develop their colors in 6-8 wks. I bought mine on E-bay from a guy in San Francisco and he said that they were in the same tank with the parents and they did not bother them. I like endlers because they are smaller in size then then reg. Guppies and they come in a wide range of colors. You should check out [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] for a wide range of endlers and Exotic Hybrids. They are also sold at a good price from [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]:fish: :fish: :fish:

[SamandAnne]

Great, thanks for the info. Any ideas if they would bully other males or cause damage to fins of other female livebearers?

Thanks for the links on where to purchase them, too!

[Eileen]

I started out with Black bar endlers all male. They are smaller then the Hybrid types. The males would do that mating dance in front of each other but that was it. So you can house them together all male if you want. They are better looking then the female anyways. I had a problem with just the pair as I only had 1 female. I had to seperate the female and put her in her own tank and she had her babies in a tank by herself. If you want pairs you will need a trio. 2 females to 1 male but that will mean alot of babies. If you go that way you will need to have bigger fish that gets along with the endlers .
Maybe something like a Honey Gouarmi that will eat some of the babies, some of those babies will survive. The ones that you do not want rehome on Craigslist. I like keeping all the males together like a little school. They may chase the other fishes that you might have but I do not think it will do any damage. I have 3 male Mollies in a big 55 gal. tank and I do not see any problems in my tank. Remember they do have their own personalitys. So you might get a rare occasion when you might have to get rid of that bully fish or rehome it. The pet stores have all one gender in the tanks and I do not see a real problem in those tanks when I look and those are over crowded to begin with. I like keeping the females all together in their own tank. If you want them to mate put one prized male in your female tank and remove him in a day or two into a male only tank. :goldfish: :goldfish: :goldfish:

[SamandAnne]

Thanks....we had to return 2 fancy guppy males, but the one spotted feeder guppy we have seems to be fine with our platies. I'm interested in the Endlers, but didn't want to go through injured fish again if I could help it! I would probably just go with males since we couldn't really raise the fry. It sounds like that might work, then. Thanks for sharing your experience with them. :)

[DeeDeeK]

Eileen, you need to do a bit more research. The Poeser article classified Endlers as a seperate species, however Poeser was proven to be in error for the second time. Dr. Felix Breden, who has done extensive work with Endlers at "both at the morphological and DNA levels" outlined the reasons for Poeser being wrong at the April 2007 meeting of the ALA (American Livebearer Association). The six main reasons that Poeser was in error were published in the September issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. Here they are.

1. No real gonopodial differences between Cumana Endler's and guppy populations exist. This is necessary for taxonomic speciation among livebearers.
2. No DNA differences exist when comparing Cumana Endlers to guppy populations and guppy populations to guppy populations to warrant a new species.
3. Melanophore patterns are not criteria for speciation.
4. Coloration differences are not criteria for speciation. Poecilia are polymorphic by nature.
5. Behavioral differences can only be classified if a companion group is compared and done so over many generations.
6. The Cumana guppy/Endler's livepearer hybridizes with other guppy populations frequently. Indeed there is little to no natural barrier to hybridization in the wild.

As Dr. Breden also pointed out, the Endler is a "unique race of guppy, perhaps 'on the edge' of speciation... but the criteria for speciation have not been met. Furthermore, he also stated "that taxonomic status is often used for conservation puposes. The polluted habitat of Endler's livebearer, including one site that may now be devoid of them, is well known." However, that said, they still have not been granted true species status.

I highly recommend you read the article in the September 2007 issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist. It is in the Livebearers Unlimited column, authored by Dr. Ted Coletti, Director of the American Livebearer Association.

No matter how much hobbyists may want Endlers to be a seperate species, they simply are not, they are still just a guppy.

About point #6, I had read that in the wild guppies and endler's didn't cross. If that anecdote were to prove true, wouldn't that barrier serve to define the species? And I mean this as a question, not an argument. And I'll admit that I'm biased because I love the idea of endlers being seperate from guppies.

Oh, has there been any more recent publications re. endlers as a species vs "race?"

[robnepper]

Really good thread you guys.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

About point #6, I had read that in the wild guppies and endler's didn't cross. If that anecdote were to prove true, wouldn't that barrier serve to define the species? And I mean this as a question, not an argument. And I'll admit that I'm biased because I love the idea of endlers being seperate from guppies. I can understand the bias, I share it. LOL The key is actually "no natural barrier." Endlers and Guppies do coexist in nature however it has been shown that Endler females prefer Endler males.



Oh, has there been any more recent publications re. endlers as a species vs "race?"None that I am aware of.