I am doing SO many things wrong!!

[catalina76]

I need help!

We bought a 20 gallons aquarium back in February. We put live plants in also. Rocks, one momument and a tree branch.

We bought 6 platy and 4 see thru fish (I dont know their names). We started having a snail problem in the tank along with an algae problem. So I went to the store, bought a clown loach for the snails and a big sucky guy to clean the windows (I dont remember his name).

Well the 4 see thru fish all died after I put a special product in to remove the particules in the water. All the other fish were fine. Two weeks ago the clown loach died, but it was stuck in one of the monuments (so we removed it thinking the loach had been an idiot and wasnt able to get out).

So I bought another clown loach along with two rainbow fish. The loach died again 3 days ago and today one of the rainbow fish died. Our motor also died on the aquarium... SNAILS fault, they had went inside it. So the snails are a HUGE problem!

Now I bought another motor, removed the snails I could see, cut one of the plants that was invading the aquarium.

But we must be doing something wrong because the fish keep on dying. Mind you the platys are doing WONDERFUL! We even had babies but unfortunatly they died.

So I need help so that the ecosystem of my tank becomes optiomal. If all the fish (except the platys and my sucking fish) die... there must be something wrong.

I can also take pictures if needed.

[kaimarkhirst]

Hi,

Ok couple of things.

Did you let the tank cycle?? And at what point from you putting water into the tank did you add the fish??

Tree Branch?? Please specify. Is it a branch out of your garden or similar or was it purchased??

Have you been monitoring the tank via testing kits, and if so, what are the readings??

The platys and the plec are pretty hardy fish, but can only take so much...

Snails. Where did they come from???

As much info as possible would be a great help on this, as there are loads of peeps here to help you.

Cheers

Kai

[catalina76]

Did you let the tank cycle?? I have no idea what cycling the tank means (I know, its pathetic eh?)
And at what point from you putting water into the tank did you add the fish?? We put in the water, added the plants and two weeks later added the fish.

Tree Branch?? Please specify.
Is it a branch out of your garden or similar or was it purchased?? Oh it was purchased where we bought the aquarium (see picture below)

Have you been monitoring the tank via testing kits, and if so, what are the readings??No I havent, perhaps I should go and buy a kits now!!

The platys and the plec are pretty hardy fish, but can only take so much...

Snails. Where did they come from??? Probably the plants (never buying plants there again). I dont mind having some... but ouf, they multiply in no time.

Here is the tank before the fish were introduced.
http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/13/14/87/86/dscn1010.jpg

This is the tank now:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/catalina76/DSCN1702.jpg

The snails:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/catalina76/DSCN1704.jpg

The tree branch:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/catalina76/DSCN1706.jpg

[catalina76]

And the fish:

The fish:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/catalina76/DSCN1708.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/catalina76/DSCN1703.jpg

[Jaster]

ok for starters... go read this

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=1602

This give some very helpful info on what to do, whats going on in your tank, what cycling is and how to do it. Just about everyone of us here have been where you are. Since you already have fish you'll need to read about "fish cycling".

We'll get you through it and help you out.

The snails most likely came from you plant.
Go get a test kit! I suggest the API master kit. runs about $25 at most local pet chain stores. If you can, also pick up a KH/GH test kit as well. Runs about $10.

You'll also find a lot of great info in the stickys at the top of the forum pages.

[terrapin24h]

ok, first things first:
Read the free ebook on the left to learn all about the nitrogen cycle and the proper way to cycle a tank with fish(hint: lots of water tests and lots of water changes). Also, read the stickies in the cycling forum to learn more yet. Then go out and buy a good liquid test kit to test the water params and post your results here(expect high ammonia and nitrite readings)

Short story: You put a bunch of fish into the tank and they started producing wastes. There are no bacteria in the tank to process the waste because it's a new tank, so waste is building up in the water(in the form of ammonia) and will continue killing your fish until the bacteria kick in(which they will) Your cloudy water is evidence of this. Expect no fry(baby fish) to survive this process.

Depending on where you are in the cycle process(need water tests to tell) this could take 4-6 more weeks to complete.

Your snails are common pond snails that hitchhiked into your tank on your plants.

--chris

[catalina76]

I guess I dont have a choice, we LOVE our aquarium.... so I'll spend the 50$ to get a test kit tonight and I will test it and come back with the results!

[Sir Tristen]

Take heart! You've come to the right place and received great advice here. The only thing I'll add is don't get discouraged. It takes some time, but it is worth it. The snails shouldn't hurt much. Maybe you could put something over the intake to your filter to keep the snails from getting into the motor. Getting completely rid of them is nigh impossible.

Good luck!

[Lady Hobbs]

A test kit when buying online is $15 and online is the best place to shop anyway.

You can not fill a tank with water, add fish and all is well. Tanks need to be cycled or fish die from toxins in the water. Please read the links in my signature.

Snails probably didn't mess with your motor but a few may have gotten inside the filter so it will not "seat down" properly. Take it apart and clean the inside.

[catalina76]

Ok so here are the results

Amonia 0
Nitrite 0.3mg/L
PH 7.8-8.0 (DH and I dont agree... so I put both *laugh*)
GH 180mg/L
KH 110mg/L

And a platy died also *sigh*

Oh I bought a vacuum to clean the bottom too.... there is ALOT of residu down there. The water was taken after I passed the vacuum (the water was full of suspended residu).

[Lady Hobbs]

No cleaning when trying to cycle a tank.

Are you using dechlorinated water?

[catalina76]

No regular tap water.

I did notice one thing.... though my heater was on 23C.... the tank thermometer (sticker on the tank) shows 26-27C. Could that be it?

[KcEE]

Hmm...you should use a dechlorinater. Chlorine is bad for your fish.

[catalina76]

Oh another thing, I dont have an air pump in the aquarium.

Hmmmm.. what if I boiled the water before putting it in the tank?

Dechlorinator, is that the tap water conditionner?? If so I am using that when I add water to the tank.

[KcEE]

Hmm...since you mentioned that there was alot of waste at the bottom and in the gravel, I was wondering how much food and how often do you feed the fish? That might be causing the water to be cloudy and possibly killing the fish as well.

[catalina76]

I must say DH let my daughter feed the fish, and OH BOY.... after a week I told him to do it himself. But I still think he is putting in too much. So starting tomorrow I will be in charge of the feeding and I will be removing any extra food on top after 5 minutes.

[catalina76]

I am reading the guide and just read this:
If the fish seems to be hovering at the top of the aquarium
and "gasping" for breath, there is a lack of oxygen in its aquarium

I have noticed (you can see in the picture I took today) that the fish are on top of the aquarium. Could they be missing oxygen even though there are plants in the water??

[Lady Hobbs]

Gasping fish also means ammonia is in the water. Your tank being cloudy means you have what's called White Water Snydrome which is due to the tank trying to cycling. It will also happen when you do too much cleaning.

I could explain every bit of the cycling process to you here but it is already written in detail in the links below so no point in repeating this all again.

You must use the water conditioner each and every water change.

[catalina76]

I will cycle the tank and cross my fingers for a change within the next month or two. Hopefully some fish will survive.

[KcEE]

As for your question regarding the the air-pump, Maybe you should get one. I am assuming that the water outlet from the filter sits very close to the surface of the water in the tank right? If it is, then it might not be creating enough surface agitation to assist in the oxygenation in the water..

[catalina76]

Got another question.... the ebook talked about cycling a tank without fish... but since I have fish, I cant cycle it the same way can I?

[Lady Hobbs]

Cycling with fish? Click Me! (http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=36492)
The Fishless Cycle? Click Me! (http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=5640)

[KcEE]

Sorry but you cannot do that. Adding more ammonia to the tank will just kill of all the fish. For now, you need to keep up with the water changes and monitor the water parameters.

[catalina76]

Should I buy some Cycle (from Hagen) to put in the tank also?

I jsut realised I truly knew NOTHING!! I have been cleaning my filters every 2-3 weeks! :14:

No wonder I have been haVing problems! Poor fish!!

So I will change the water daily (about 10%), check the water every second day.

Should I buy a Danios to put in the tank?? Or will that stress my other fish too much?

[KcEE]

You could try using Cycle. Although I've heard people say that it doesnt work. I have also not seen any difference. I don't think you should add more fish at the moment. The water isn't stable yet. More fish = More bioload

[Lady Hobbs]

Do not buy more fish. You already have enough fish to start cycling. Water changes are not done per a daily schedule but are done according to what your test kits tell you.

When you have low ammonia levels, the fish are probably fine for a day or two. When ammonia levels began to climb, you may need to do 30-40% water changes. Ammonia and nitrite levels dictate how much water needs to be changed.

Get some Tetra SafeStart instead of Cycle. It works better. If the Tetra is hard to find, then Seacheams Stability or Stress Zyme.

Using water NOT dechlorinated will kill bacteria you are trying to grow. You must always use the water conditioner. Changing the filter, cleaning the gravel, etc, also will set you back.

Fish do not need to eat constantly and can go a few days at a time without food. A tiny pinch of food is all that's needed and it should be eaten all within 2 minutes.

I will move this to the cycling forum since this is a cycling topic.

[catalina76]

Lady Hobbs thank you!

You have been very patient with my ignorant self *hehe*

Thanks to all the others also, I will keep you all informed on the progress!

And I will do tests daily to verify levels and only do water changes when the levels are on the rise. No cleaning the bottom either, nor the filter.

[Lady Hobbs]

Here ya go! :19:

Cycling is probably the most misunderstood thing there is about fishkeeping but once you get it, you get it. And you only have to learn it once.

Hang in there because you'll get it, too.

[KcEE]

Good luck with the cycling! Just be patient and you'll get the tank cycled soon enough.

[catalina76]

Thanks!

Lost another rainbow fish this morning.... I dont think I will have any fish left soon! :scry:

[brianyu]

Thanks!

Lost another rainbow fish this morning.... I dont think I will have any fish left soon! :scry:
sorry for your lost ... im from montreal too :19:
one question : when you change water , are you use only cold water ?

[catalina76]

No I use room temperature water when I change it.

[catalina76]

ARG... this is getting discouraging.... another fish died... one of the Tetra Neon.

Now I retested the water this morning and this is what I got:

KH: 120
GH: 180
PH: 8.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite: 0.1

So I dont get why I am getting dead fish.... all the tests are looking good no? I hate not completly understanding the logic of it all yet!

Also, should I be changing water daily even though the results are what they are?

Oh and I think the impending dead of the others are coming... they all stay at the bottom, not very active (unless I approch my hand from the glass) and when I gave them food none of them came!:scry:

[mommy1]

how much water are you taking out of your tank when you change it.
how often do you change it.
do you have an airstone going.
what is the temp. of the tank.
are you vacuuming the gravel when you change the water.
and did you get a new filter.

[catalina76]

Ok I jsut started the cycling cycle two days ago.

Last time I changed the water it was on Friday night.

I do not have an airstone, I do have live plants though (does that make a diffrence?)

I change about 3 gallons of water last time.

First time I changed the water yes I vacuumed the gravel (I was told not to though when cycling the tank so I wont this time).

No not a new filter, but I did wash it out 4 days ago (before I knew I shouldnt of done it).

[mommy1]

Ok I jsut started the cycling cycle two days ago.

Last time I changed the water it was on Friday night.

I do not have an airstone, I do have live plants though (does that make a diffrence?)

I change about 3 gallons of water last time.

First time I changed the water yes I vacuumed the gravel (I was told not to though when cycling the tank so I wont this time).

No not a new filter, but I did wash it out 4 days ago (before I knew I shouldnt of done it).plants will help, but i think an airstone is also necessary to help the cycle through.
check your ammonia if it is above .50ppm do a 50% water change.
since you started cycling two days ago i would check the water at least twice a day.
dont forget to put the dechlorinator in the new water. and make the new water as close to the same temp as the tank water as you can.
its correct to NOT clean anything. only water change.
your temperature should be around 78-80 degrees to speed up the cycle.

[Lady Hobbs]

I would pass on the plants. You have enough on your plate right now without worrying about plants...... the required light, what kind of plants, the substrate, ferts, etc. Learn one thing at a time and for now you need to get the nitrogen cycle figured out.

Altho your water may be fine this minute, your fish are still stressed due to what they have been going thru. Neons are very sensitive and not a good fish to try to cycle with at all.

[catalina76]

So I should get rid of all plants?

[mommy1]

since you already have plants no sense to waste them.

[brianyu]

:19: after 2 more weeks your fish may stop dieing :hmm3grin2orange: joke hehe

[catalina76]

Brian _ *heheeh* I only have 4 left... one platy, two neons (and they are dying) and one window sucker. Tomorrow I will only have two left, the neons are dying quickly.

I dont understand though, why are all the fish dying??? My 6 platys and 4 original neons were doing great for a whole month.... then I added this cleaner to wipe out the algae and bang, the 4 neons died. Bought a clown loach and a window cleaner and went to hell from there on end.

DH asked me tonight if my tests were fine WHY where the fish dying... and I didnt honestly know what to answer him :help:

[catalina76]

Ok so I decided on this ornament to add bubbles in the tank:
http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c200369/c200423/p17063551.html

But the air pump... which one is best??

They have
New tetra Whisper 40 (http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5943/p16739299.html)
Elite 803 air pump (http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5943/p21968.html)
Penn Plax (http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5943/p17162588.html)
Tom Stellar (http://www.petsandponds.com/en/aquarium-supplies/c5943/p17085135.html)

[brianyu]

:11: in my begin , i have 6 guppy and 12 platy , after the first moth 4 platy is dead and 5 guppy. if all yours fish passed by, stop bought new fish. and try to cycle your tank. i think everything you need is already write by other , so lets do it in the good ways. good luck
keep us update about how your tanks going :19:

[KcEE]

Maybe you can get the tetra whisper. Any air-pump will do actually.

[KcEE]

Hmm..I am starting to think that the fish are not dying due to ammonia or nitrite poisoning. Maybe your gH/kH and pH is the problem.

These are your current water params right?

KH: 120
GH: 180
PH: 8.0

I might be wrong here. What do you guys think?

[catalina76]

Yes those where the parameters this mornign when I did the test!

[Fraoch]

Ammonia 0
Nitrite: 0.1

You're right, these levels do not pose an imminent danger, although any reading of nitrite at all is stressful.

However there almost surely was an ammonia spike and a nitrite spike if you've read Lady Hobbs' stickies. In fact, since you changed your filter several times and you've vacuumed the gravel, you may have had several spikes but didn't know it since you weren't testing until recently.

Each spike injures the fish, even if it is below lethal levels. Their reactions may be delayed - one of my fish died when my ammonia levels were 0 and my nitrites were dropping (i.e. the cycle had almost completed). If fish survive these spikes, they will be weaker and more susceptible to disease, plus more easily stressed.

You indicate you added a "cleaner" to remove algae. The cure may have been worse than the disease, often you can remove algae by scraping. Adding anything to the water may stress the fish. What cleaner was it? Apparently adding the full dose as recommended may stress fish, some on this board advocate using half-doses.

Also you say the water you're adding is at room temperature, but your tank is much warmer. This causes a temperature shock during your water changes, it stresses fish out and can sometimes kill them instantly. It's probably better to use warm water from the tap, checking the temperature to make sure it's within a degree or two of the aquarium water. Oh and make sure to add dechlorinator - check to see that your dechlorinator/tap water conditioner handles both chlorine AND chloramine.

Finally, one other word of advice - your bucket is probably in Canadian gallons while the dechlorinator gives dosage data in U.S. gallons. A Canadian gallon is bigger than a U.S. gallon, this means if you follow the bottle advice you will underdose. Either add a bit extra or use the dosage guidelines in litres.

[Glub]

Finally, one other word of advice - your bucket is probably in Canadian gallons while the dechlorinator gives dosage data in U.S. gallons. A Canadian gallon is bigger than a U.S. gallon, this means if you follow the bottle advice you will underdose. Either add a bit extra or use the dosage guidelines in litres.

:ssuprised: you're joking, right?

Ummm... So I may have run my cycle with some chlorine/chloramine in the water still (I am Canadian, using tetra safestart)?

Why the hell can't we standardize this stuff? It's the 20th century for crying out loud! :help:

[KcEE]

Hmm...I've never heard of over-dosing dechlorinator. I'd rather put a bit more than worry about whether there's still chlorine/chloramine in the water.

[Fraoch]

:ssuprised: you're joking, right?

Afraid not.(blush)


Ummm... So I may have run my cycle with some chlorine/chloramine in the water still (I am Canadian, using tetra safestart)?

It's probably not that MUCH of a residual, you're probably OK...but you are underdosing a bit! I'd rather be safe than sorry and overdose slightly rather than underdosing. That said, some dechlorinators require tiny amounts - the Top Fin one I'm using requires "2 drops per gallon" so a little means a lot...


Why the hell can't we standardize this stuff? It's the 20th century for crying out loud!

Actually it's the 21st century.thumbs2:

I hear ya, but old habits die hard and old units seem to die even harder.

All this would be avoided if everyone went metric.:hmm3grin2orange:

BTW 1 gal U.S = 3.785411784 litres, 1 gal Canadian = 4.54609 litres (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallon) so 1 gal Canadian = a little more than 1.2 gallons U.S. So if you're using a 2 Canadian gallon Rubbermaid bucket like I am, that 2 gallons Canadian is more than 2.4 gallons U.S. Meaning you're underdosing by 20%.

[geowashlaw]

Something I didn't see anyone suggest ... If you know anyone with an established tank, ask them for a big chunk of their filter media ... it is like getting an instant cycle, or at least a huge jump start on it ... that plus you plants should really help out ... also, with the plants you may not see as high of ammonia and nitrite numbers as they tend to help keep that stuff down.

[kurly]

Catalina76,
I can't really offer any advice but I do want to give you some encouragement to hang in there. Everything will work out and just think of all the knowledge will you have gained from this experience!

As you can see, there are many people on here that will continue to walk you through this until it is all figured out. :l12:

[catalina76]

Oh its been a while since my last time here.... but here is what happened:

So I tested my water every day, changed some water every day for two weeks. Lost all my fish except my "vidangeur" (the one that eats all the trash at the bottom). So he has been alone for the past month and a half.

My tested never showed a surge of ammonia. After 3 weeks I decided to stop testing, I was just getting too frustrated.

That one fish is still there and surviving. I have hard water, so I need to go and buy something to soften it a little (my KH and GH tests are always WAY too high). My Ph is about 7.8-8.2 The rest looks wonderful.

Think I can reintroduce more fish now? If so what kind would be best and how many for a 20 gallons tank?

[Fraoch]

So I tested my water every day, changed some water every day for two weeks. Lost all my fish except my "vidangeur" (the one that eats all the trash at the bottom). So he has been alone for the past month and a half.

My tested never showed a surge of ammonia. After 3 weeks I decided to stop testing, I was just getting too frustrated.

I would strongly suspect that the series of ammonia and nitrite spikes that occurred earlier just wore them down.


That one fish is still there and surviving. I have hard water, so I need to go and buy something to soften it a little (my KH and GH tests are always WAY too high). My Ph is about 7.8-8.2 The rest looks wonderful.

You won't find too many people here recommending anything that will change your water parameters for several reasons:

- should you change your water parameters too quickly, the shock may kill fish

- the water you introduce during a water change must be the same as that in the aquarium. If you make a mistake, the resulting sudden change can also kill fish.

- often you can "overshoot" your target, which will then cause you to add another chemical to correct it, which can also overshoot, resulting in a roller-coaster that will kill fish

The recommendation is to accept it and leave it alone. There are a number of fish that do just fine in water like this and most others can adapt to it provided the change is gradual.


Think I can reintroduce more fish now? If so what kind would be best and how many for a 20 gallons tank?

Your bio-load with only one fish is very low now. Your beneficial bacteria colonies are very small and if you introduce too many fish, you will overwhelm the bacteria and get back into cycling. Introduce more fish very slowly, maybe two at first, then another two or so a month later.

Test the water daily and do water changes should parameters get dangerous.

You should probably add hardy fish because even introducing only one will double your bio-load which may cause a cycle. Zebra Danios maybe? Don't introduce too many or you will have a severe cycle, but if you introduce too few, the bacteria won't grow very much. I'm thinking 2-3, then more later.

While this is going on, do not change the filter or do deep gravel cleaning.