Ok starting the cycling with fish, now the ?s

[katrinka772]

I picked up a bottle of test strips yesterday that tests for pH, Nitrite, Nitrate, Hardness, and Alkalinity, so I need to get him an ammonia test kit as well if I am understanding correctly, which I will do tomorrow.

We added 6 neon tetras today, I didn't know about the cycling without fish heck I didn't know about cycling a tank at all before tonight. We set the tank up about a week and a half ago and dechlorinated the water with the packet included in the fish tank and let the filter and therometer run after we set it up.

Now if we are to change the water using non-chlorinated water do we need to buy distilled water or get the stuff to add to the tap water proir to putting it in the tank?

Are we adjusting the pH each time we test if need be or are we only looking at ammonia and nitrites?

Oh we have a 10 gallon tank with silk plants not real ones. The guy at the pet store said we didn't want live plants because that meant special lighting and more testing and such so we got the fish, silk plants, and Tetra Starter for freshwater tanks (which we put in the tank when we put the fish in the tank). He did tell my son to wait a month before getting another species of fish because the neons would do better if they could get their territory established first.

I am hoping this process goes well since it has been started as a 4H project and my son wants to have more fish. He is actually reading about fish and tanks.

[bushwhacker]

get some dechlorinator like prime... and just use your tap water

[Northernguy]

Prime or Aqua plus will work and just use tap water.Follow the directions and don't worry if you use a little too much.
Also get a bottle of Tetra Safe Start to kick start your cycle.Its the better one out there.IMO

[bushwhacker]

NG are you gettin paid for those commercials for tetra safe start?? if not i'd be talkin to someone LOL

[katrinka772]

It was the Tetra Safe Start that we used, the guy at the fish store said it would help to 'protect' the fish. He never said a word about 'cycling the tank', when asked about more fish he just said wait about a month so the Neons have determined their territory.

I am so glad that I found this site, I only wish I would have found it sooner so the poor fish didn't have to go thru this. My son has named his 6 little neons (and he swears he can tell them apart).

We have the test strips and are planning a water change this morning. Should he test the water before or after (or both) we change it?

I got the test strips because of the ease, I want him to do most of this project and felt the mixing of solutions might be a bit much at first. His dad and I are guiding him and helping him trying to find the answers to his million and one questions.

I also picked up a bottle of AquaSafe to dechlorine, but it doesn't say how long I need to let new water set before adding to the tank. I am assuming that we treat the new water before adding it to the tank?

He is really excited about this project and is learning (reluctently) to have patience, he really wants to add a couple of Danios and a Cory Cat or two. The wait is killing him, he is 11 yrs old and ADHD so this is a good lesson for him. But he will sit and watch these fish for hours, he has always been that way with fish.

Thanks for all the help and sorry about all the questions.

[FishMom]

We have the test strips and are planning a water change this morning. Should he test the water before or after (or both) we change it?

I got the test strips because of the ease, I want him to do most of this project and felt the mixing of solutions might be a bit much at first. His dad and I are guiding him and helping him trying to find the answers to his million and one questions.

I also picked up a bottle of AquaSafe to dechlorine, but it doesn't say how long I need to let new water set before adding to the tank. I am assuming that we treat the new water before adding it to the tank?


The AquaSafe pretty much instantly dechlorinates the tap water. I've been taking care of my 3-yr-old's tank and have been doing water changes with it without any problems. I make sure the water is a little tepid to match the current tank temperature, give the water a good stir after adding in and put it in. The guppies rather enjoy the "waterfall" and always hang out where I usually pour it in.

On the test strips, I use 5-in-1 strips and a liquid ammonia test after the water change. I give the tank about 1/2 hr to an hour to settle before testing...just my thing, not an official rule.

[katrinka772]

Ok we tested before the water change and about 20 minutes after the change using the test strips.

Reading before:
Nitrate 0-20 (closer to the 0 mark, son called 'it like 5, Mom')
Nitrite 0
Hardness 300
Alkanlinity 300
pH 8.4
Ammonia .5- 3.0 (closer to the 3 color)

Readings after were the same other than Ammonia was closer to the .5 color.

After seeing him handle the test strips I will be getting him the liquid testing kit(s) soon, just hate to waste the money we spent on these. Hmm I wonder if Wal-Mart would give me issue taking these back to exchange for the other tests.

[Northernguy]

It Walmart they should take them back!lol
A liquid test kit is the best way to go.
Daily waterchanges wouldn't hurt your tank.Get those perameters down.
You can add the dechlorinator to your tank as you refill it .It doesnt make a big difference when you add it as long as you do.:22:


Bushwhacker I wish they would.I could use the dough!:hmm3grin2orange:

[katrinka772]

I forgot we did a 20% change is that enough or too much to do everyday?

[Lady Hobbs]

Read. And follow the steps given.

Links below.

[Fraoch]

Hardness 300
Alkanlinity 300
pH 8.4

Sounds like my water - "liquid rock".:ssmile:


Ammonia .5- 3.0 (closer to the 3 color)

Ouch, ouch, if it really is 3 that's very toxic, particularly at high pH. Anything above 1 can kill them. Two of my three fish were killed when levels were 0.5 - 1.0 for two weeks, so even at sublethal levels it's dangerous at a high pH.

If the levels get up above 1 again, do a larger water change than 20%.


Readings after were the same other than Ammonia was closer to the .5 color.

Better but still stressful.


After seeing him handle the test strips I will be getting him the liquid testing kit(s) soon, just hate to waste the money we spent on these.

The API ammonia liquid test is very accurate and he will be able to use it, it's fairly simple, just fill the vial up to the line, add 8 drops of solution 1 and 8 drops of solution 2, cap, shake for 5 seconds, let sit for 5 minutes and read the result.

Don't fill the vial by dipping it directly into the aquarium since the vial could contain traces of chemicals from previous tests that are dangerous to fish. Fill the vial with a syringe or bulb.

He will probably need supervision for these tests because although the chemicals aren't extremely dangerous you should still use precautions. Try not to get any on your hands, rinse the vial out thoroughly and wash your hands carefully after use.

[Northernguy]

I forgot we did a 20% change is that enough or too much to do everyday?

Read the link on cycling with fish in Hobbs Sig.
I think 20% is a good start but work your way up to about 30-40%.

[katrinka772]

After seeing the high pH and other high readings we decided to test our tap water (we did not dechlorinate it for this test).

Hardness 300
Alkaninity was between 180-300
pH was 7.8

I have been reading not to mess with the pH but it seems that we don't have a fighting chance to bring it down below 7.8 since that is where we start without some help of some sort.

He wants to try the liquid testing, he is into science so he is excited by the chance to try that. Are the 5-in-1 strips ok for the other things or do I need a different kit there as well?

This project is really getting him excited about different things, he is not looking forward to the notebook part but I think he is getting good information for it.

[Fraoch]

I have been reading not to mess with the pH but it seems that we don't have a fighting chance to bring it down below 7.8 since that is where we start without some help of some sort.

Don't mess with it. If it's that hard it contains a lot of buffers and will resist your changes. To lower pH, you're adding acid. You'd have to add enough acid to overcome the buffer and once you do the pH will suddenly crash! You'll have to add yet another product (a base) to get it back up to neutral. You then have to make sure that the water you're adding during a water change is the exact same pH...

Not worth it and the pH roller-coaster is very hard on fish.


He wants to try the liquid testing, he is into science so he is excited by the chance to try that. Are the 5-in-1 strips ok for the other things or do I need a different kit there as well?

Sure, you might as well keep those. They're good for quickie testing if you don't have the time or after your tank is cycled and things aren't changing much, just for a quick check.

The only other thing IMHO you may want to do with liquid tests is nitrite. This test is even simpler, it's one test bottle only and the chemical isn't dangerous. You can also do liquid tests for nitrate but nitrate is not very toxic, the test strips are probably sensitive enough to indicate if you have a nitrate problem and it will take a while to build up to dangerous levels.

Also the liquid nitrate test is pretty involved:

- add solution 1
- cap, invert 5 times
- shake solution 2 for 30 seconds
- add solution 2
- cap, shake test vial for 1 minute
- wait 5 minutes

Whew!

[Wild Turkey]

You should test your water daily, water change ammonia and nitrite down to 1.0ppm to keep your fish alive.

Tetra Safe start is awesome, theres a reason Ng plugs it. thumbs2:

Liquid Test kits are the way to go, the cheapest way is to get them all at once in something like this:

http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCatalog/ctl3684/cp18538/si1380887/cl1/aquarium_pharmaceuticals_freshwater_master_test_ki t?&query=freshwater+master&queryType=0&offset=

Dont mess with the ph, stable ph is the most important thing, and messing with it is for more advanced fishkeeping. Get through the cycle before you worry about it in the least. A fluctuating ph is much worse than a ph thats stable but out of the fishes "preferred ph" range.

The only parameters you should be worried about (chemically) right now are Ammonia, nitrite, and later on, nitrate. Nitrate you want to water change down if it gets above around 20ppm.

HOW MUCH WATER TO CHANGE:
can be figured out very easily with simple math. If your ammonia is 3.0ppm, doing a 66% water change, or a 50%, and then a 33% would put you around 1.0ppm. Of course still test, but you can easily calculate how much water you are going to need to change. Doing large water changes isnt a huge issue unless the parameters for ur tap are way off of what ur tank's are, which most likely isnt the case unless you have something in the tank that changes ph, like coral, shells, co2 injection, decaying plant matter, etc

Dechlorinator is what you are after for treating the tap water, make sure you get a type that neutralizes chlorine and chloramines BOTH. You can do a water change and add the dechlor afterwards, as long as you dont wait.

Edit: forgot to add the link, doh!

[Northernguy]

I added a few peices of driftwood to my tanks and it dropped the ph by about .5.The driftwood is Canadian hardwood if that makes a difference.

[katrinka772]

Ok got the liquid Ammonia test kit, Austin likes doing that test thumbs2:
Our readings before water change were basically the same as before with the following exceptions:

Nitrite .5
Ammonia 1.0

After 30% water change and waiting about an hour to retest:

Ammonia was down to .25
We forgot to do another strip to check the Nitrite levels (blush).

So our journey continues, I just hope the poor Neons come thru this ok.

[Northernguy]

Well your a chemist now!thumbs2:

Keep an eye on your levels and do your water changes daily until you get to 0.Its getting there!

[katrinka772]

That is our plan, he is anxious to add a couple of Cory Cats. My last answer was a couple more weeks?

But he is so cute he has named all 6 of these fish and swears he can tell them apart:fish2:

But at least I feel like we are on the right path.

[Wild Turkey]

That is our plan, he is anxious to add a couple of Cory Cats. My last answer was a couple more weeks?

But he is so cute he has named all 6 of these fish and swears he can tell them apart:fish2:

But at least I feel like we are on the right path.

The answer is more like a few weeks AFTER you are getting 0/0/some without doing any water changes, but you got the right idea

[katrinka772]

We had our first loss this morning. We didn't get a water change done yesterday as we had a trip to the doctor and they decided that Austin has pnuemonia so I got preoccupied. I am not sure if missing one day of water change would cause a death.

The levels this morning were:

Nitrite .5
Ammonia 1.0

And as silly as it may sound the poor fish found its self some hollowed ground in my flower bed, but argue with a sick kid about what should happen to a fallen friend.

[Wild Turkey]

Yup 1.0 can do it

Agreed on the arguing. I still bury all my friends with fur in the yard when the time comes even though I think you arent supposed to.

[Fraoch]

I feel for ya, I lost two. Poor little guys...:scry:

Anyway this is pretty controversial but rather than lose a fish if you miss a water change you may want to try AmQuel+. It will (temporarily) detoxify both nitrite and ammonia, so if you know you'll miss a water change just put it in. Make sure the water is adequately oxygenated.

It's controversial, most of the time you don't want to use chemicals but if it saves you from losing a fish...

The disadvantages:

- don't use any other ammonia test but the API test, it won't read properly

- once you've put in the proper dose of AmQuel+, it gets used up. Any NEW nitrite and ammonia will be just as toxic and your tests will register the total nitrite/ammonia, both the de-toxified and toxic parts - you won't be able to tell the difference. So you still have to do water changes, eventually it'll become toxic again. It's just that it will protect the fish for a little while, a day or two.

Oh and keep dosing with SafeStart!

[Glub]

Make sure you measure your liquids in the vials from the BOTTOM of the meniscus. View your test tube at eye level (this is why they put that little white mark ALL around the test tube, so you can line it up evenly). See the little "bubble" looking line at the water's surface? Take the measurement from the lowest point on that line (which will actually be in the middle of the test tube, and not at the sides around the glass).

Many people make the mistake of measuring from the top point at the side of the glass. This is incorrect and will produce a measurement that's too low.

Allow all air bubbles to pop before reading the measurement. Do not attempt to shake the tube to pop the bubbles, you will only make more.

Since water has adhesive and cohesive properties, it will 'climb' up the sides of any container (ie. test tubes) it's stored in. For this reasons, it's standard practice to take all measurements from the lowest point of the meniscus which will be in the center of the water's surface.

Our water tests probably aren't that significantly sensitive to allow some room for error, but it's proper lab practice and will produce the most accurate results possible from your tests.

There's enough to know about keeping fish to fill a library. This is a good hobby. One of the hardest challenges for researchers is being able to keep their specimens alive long enough to conduct their studies, and to provide adequate conditions to trigger natural behaviour necessary for their studies. There is a LOT your son can learn if he's willing to do his research and take an active interest in the learning behind it all.

Also, java moss will help give your fish some relief from the crummy water conditions while you go through your cycle. It wont compensate, but it's better than nothing. While it is a live plant, it pretty much has the same requirements as silk or plastic plants and should do fine in your aquarium with what you have. It's dirt cheap, and really easy to find.

[katrinka772]

We are still going strong with the cycling it has been just over 2 weeks and only the one loss thumbs2: The ammonia reading is holding steady at 0.5 before water changes and we have been doing 40% changes.

My husband keeps insisting we change the filter medium (because the package says so) this is one fight I have choosen to keep up. I have read not to change the medium or we start all over? Please tell me I have understood that part right :help: Although I question if we should pull the charcoal out of the filter he has now.

We have 'vaccummed' the top of the gravel to get some of the extra food out of the tank. We only did that once, last week.

Is there anything we should be doing? I was thinking about getting him an air tank. He wants a treasure chest in his tank, he thinks it would make his fishies happier to have a 'toy'.

[Fraoch]

My husband keeps insisting we change the filter medium (because the package says so) this is one fight I have choosen to keep up. I have read not to change the medium or we start all over? Please tell me I have understood that part right :help:

DO NOT change the filter! That's where almost all of your bacteria is growing. You WILL be sent back to square one. Want proof?

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=39608


Although I question if we should pull the charcoal out of the filter he has now.

Keep it until you're cycled, then jam in some floss or a sponge in the filter basket, let it accumulate bacteria for 2-3 weeks, then remove the carbon, replacing it with the "seasoned" floss/sponge.

Don't remove the carbon now, it's providing growing sites for the bacteria.


We have 'vaccummed' the top of the gravel to get some of the extra food out of the tank. We only did that once, last week.

That's fine, you should do that to eliminate rotting food, which is a major source of ammonia. Just don't jab the vacuum right into the gravel, vacuum the top only.


Is there anything we should be doing? I was thinking about getting him an air tank. He wants a treasure chest in his tank, he thinks it would make his fishies happier to have a 'toy'.

Sure, aeration will help the fishes and the cycle. You may want to get a multiple "gang valve" and crack an unconnected valve open to control the air flow, you'll find most air pumps put out a lot of air and if you just blow it in without any control it's very disruptive, like putting a blender in the tank! By opening an unconnected valve you relieve the backpressure on the air pump and you also control the flow to the air stone. Also many of these valves have an internal check valve, meaning that if your air pump shuts off it won't be destroyed by water siphoning into it. Otherwise you should buy a separate check valve.

[robflanker]

DO NOT change the filter! That's where almost all of your bacteria is growing. You WILL be sent back to square one. Want proof?

http://www.aquaticcommunity.com/aquariumforum/showthread.php?t=39608


Thanks for throwing me under the bus Fraoch! haha

But yes, do not ever ever ever change the filter media unless you wish to have a never-ending cycle like I have going on right now.

[Fraoch]

Thanks for throwing me under the bus Fraoch! haha

(blush) Sorry Rob, I had hoped that you wouldn't be sent right back to the beginning, but it's starting to look like you have.

And no, it's not your fault, you were following instructions on the filter package. I almost did the same thing. But hopefully someone can learn from the experience.

[katrinka772]

But hopefully someone can learn from the experience.

Somebody has learned from your experience....... ME!!!!!!:19:

[katrinka772]

Well finally it looks like we have a cycled tank, we have to test the nitrites/nitrates but the ammonia finally is zero!! We got the bubble stone going about two weeks ago although everyone seems to be out of gang values so he unplugs it when he feeds since we haven't been able to control the airflow.

We did the last water change Wednesday, he has been doing daily ammonia tests. He was so confused over the weekend because the levels were decreasing and he couldn't understand why. This is an interesting journey that we have been on and I am so glad that we have been taking it with our son.

[Fraoch]

Well finally it looks like we have a cycled tank, we have to test the nitrites/nitrates but the ammonia finally is zero!! We got the bubble stone going about two weeks ago although everyone seems to be out of gang values so he unplugs it when he feeds since we haven't been able to control the airflow.

We did the last water change Wednesday, he has been doing daily ammonia tests. He was so confused over the weekend because the levels were decreasing and he couldn't understand why. This is an interesting journey that we have been on and I am so glad that we have been taking it with our son.

Sorry to say - this is only half the cycle. You should now be seeing nitrites. Nitrites are more toxic to fish than ammonia.

The good news is you have built up a colony of bacteria that are converting ammonia to nitrites. Now you need to build up bacteria that will convert nitrites into nitrates.

Stick with it!:ssmile:

[katrinka772]

Thanks Fraoch! I just did a test strip and we have 3.0 Nitrite and 20 Nitrate, so off to do a 40% (?) water change.

[Fraoch]

Thanks Fraoch! I just did a test strip and we have 3.0 Nitrite and 20 Nitrate, so off to do a 40% (?) water change.

The rule of thumb is to keep nitrites below 1, so if you can, try a 50% water change at least...

Now that you need to be testing nitrites, you may want to look into a liquid test for this as well. At least on test strips I've used, nitrite and nitrate are very hard to read, subtle changes in intensities of pink. In the case of nitrates, the reading was also wildly inaccurate.

The API nitrite liquid test is easier than the ammonia, just 5 drops from one bottle and wait 5 minutes. The nitrate test is a lot harder, involving shaking one of the test bottles for 30 seconds and the test tube for 1 minute.

And it doesn't really matter what your nitrates are when you have nitrites - they'll stay fairly low anyway until nitrites start to get converted. Plus the water changes you're doing to handle nitrites will take care of any nitrates. You should monitor nitrates once you're cycled as a general indication of your bio-load. High nitrates are a sign it's overloaded - too many fish, overfeeding or too much organic debris in the gravel. So you may want to hold off on the nitrate liquid tests and use the strips to measure nitrate, at least until you're cycled. As I said, I found the strips to be inaccurate for nitrates but it's not critical at this point.

[mommy1]

this is a good place to get the liquid tests online. its much cheaper than at the lfs, www.petsolutions.com (http://www.petsolutions.com).

[robflanker]

this is a good place to get the liquid tests online. its much cheaper than at the lfs, www.petsolutions.com (http://www.petsolutions.com).

One can get it at Dr. Foster for $15 as well. Search for CK-110706

I think the link should work;
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4454&prodid=8311&catid=113