Tetras dying in fully cycled tank

[jessie]

Here's a little background info. on my situation: I setup a 29 gallon, cycled it fishless with pure ammonia. Then I did something either very brave or very stupid. I added all my fish at once. I wanted to see if the bio load could handle it. I added: 5 cardinal tetras, 6 rummy nosed tetras, 2 cory cats, and a blue ram. This was two weeks ago that I added these guys. Ok, so I have been checking ammonia and nitrites almost daily, and have had readings of 0 for each one. (So never had a spike since I added fish). Which supports my theory that fishless cycling does give you enough bio-load to handle a fully stocked tank. Tap water nitrates are around 10, and tank nitrates are usually about 20 when due for a water change. I am doing 30% water changes once a week. The pH stays around 7.4 (which I know is a bit high for the recommendation for these guys) However, the very next day after bringing fish home, I lost a cardinal tetra. Then another about a week later. Never noticed any ill behavior, weird spots, or physical signs of harassment. So everybody else seemed to be fine. I replaced my lost cardinal tetras with 2 emperor tetras and another blue ram for my male. (total of 15 fish in tank). About 3 days later, I noticed that my rummy nosed tetras seemed to be having a problem with ich. I went back to the petstore and low and behold-the entire tank of blue rams was infested with ich. However, none of my rams have any signs of it, just the rummy nosed tetras. So I decided to treat the whole tank. I used a product called "Super Ich Cure" by API. It states to only keep it in the water for 48 hours, then do a 25% water change and add activated carbon back to the tank. This was about 30 hours ago. I also increased the temp to 82. I can't add salt because of the cory cats. Today, I noticed a dead emperor tetra floating around. The bottle states to only to a half treatment for "scaleless fish." The cory cats seem to be doing fine, but did I kill my emperor tetra by doing a full dose? The active ingredient in the medication is "Benzaldehyde Green, and Povidine/Colloid mixture." The rummy nosed tetras still look spotty. Now I want to know what to do from here. SHould I do a water change to dilute the concentration of the medication in case the dose is too high for the tetras? Should I do the water change they recommend, then try another product? Also, do you guys think I am losing tetras because pH and nitrates are too high? I am kind of stumped. thanks for any advice.

Here's the thing that sucks: the petstore I bought them from only has a 48 hour return policy (Aquarium Adventure) That hardly seems like enough time to know if you have a diseased fish or not. The other one (Petsmart) I believe gives you 14 days. Perhaps I will start buying my fish at Petsmart again because so far this is 3 fish lost in 2 weeks that I could be getting replacements for.

[Chrona]

Well, I don't know about the medication, but cardinals are VERY sensitive to changes in water parameter, in particular pH, so you need to acclimate them very slowly. I lost my first two when I acclimated them using the standard 20 minute float, but from then on, I floated them for 20 minutes, added 1/2 cup water every 10 minutes for an hour, and the next group did great.

[jessie]

Thats what I have heard. We tested the store's water and the pH was only like 6.6, so I acclimated them over about an hour or more, adding about a cup of water each time, every 15 minutes. I almost think I lost the first one more to shock, because it just died overnight without any real explanation.

[Chrona]

Thats what I have heard. We tested the store's water and the pH was only like 6.6, so I acclimated them over about an hour or more, adding about a cup of water each time, every 15 minutes. I almost think I lost the first one more to shock, because it just died overnight without any real explanation.

It is also possible your LFS just got them in. Most cardinal tetras are wild-caught, and so are shipped from South America. They are already in a pretty weakened state when they arrive. The second time around, I waited for a week and a half after my LFS got their shipment in, since there was bound to be some die-off and I wanted to see which of the cardinals were healthy (ie regained their color)

[jessie]

All of them (when we went back to the petstore) looked really pale. I believe the second set though were a new shipment, so I am not sure about the ones that I bought. I am kind of ticked off though that the store only has a 48 hour guarantee. They also had nothing on the ich infested blue ram tank to indicate that those fish were being treated for ich and weren't for sale. I pointed out to them that their rams all had ich, and I had just bought one from them, and now had an outbreak in my tank.

[*Sarah*]

I had the same thing happen with my 2 Angelfish, just died, no sign of disease or anything. Got 3 for $20 and only 1 is stull alive. The store I got them from only has a 24hr guarantee, which I think is ridiculous.

[freshwaterfishlover]

I had 6 Cardinals and 4 died in 2 weeks.

[jessie]

It really ticks me off. My emperor tetras were 7 dollars each. If i lose any of the rams, thats a 12 dollar fish! Maybe if this tank turns disastrous, I will just stock it with a bunch of zebra danios and call it a day.

[Chrona]

To play the devil's advocate here, keep in mind that for every guy that walks out the fish store knowing what to do, there are like 4-5 that walk out that don't. Unlike bigger animals, like guinea pigs, etc (where the average guarentee is like a month) fish can't really change their environment or even complain. In general, if something was seriously wrong with the fish at the store, then the ride home + 24-48 hours of a new environment will probably mean the end of it. On the other hand, past a few days/a week or more, the general cause of death is a poorly maintained aquarium. So from a business standpoint, stores can't offer much more. Most fish stores already make little to no money on the actual livestock, and having a week-long guarentee would mean they would lose serious amounts of money. Again, this is IN GENERAL. There are obvious exceptions to this (ie ick, internal parasites, etc), but this is my theory on why the guarentee for fish is usually 24-48 hours (My LFS has a 48hr rule, but is pretty lenient)

[Chrona]

It really ticks me off. My emperor tetras were 7 dollars each. If i lose any of the rams, thats a 12 dollar fish! Maybe if this tank turns disastrous, I will just stock it with a bunch of zebra danios and call it a day.

Rams are considered difficult to keep no?

[sergo]

what is the hardness of your water? tetras are sensitive to hard water especially rummy nose. i accidentally off'd a few once due to my hard water and the LFS ph crash (from 7.0 to 6.0 and mine is 7.8) that i didn't find out about until after a few died and some went belly up while tring to bag them. in the end they all died and i went with some bloodfins and serpaes. i really wanted some rummies but i just can't keep them.

edit: you should also acclimate them for longer than 1 hour. i did 4+ with all of my tetras and they all are still around. :)

[jessie]

They are listed as intermediate care. I believe all of the fish I stocked is listed as moderatley difficult to keep. In all fairness though, what is wrong with my water quality that would make my fish die or be diseased? My ammonia and nitrates have been zero from the beginning since I did fishless cycling, so there was never a spike to increase their risk of death. I am running a fluval 304 canister filter with a hang on back. I have a decent sized powerhead, and I am feeing a good and varied diet. Is it the higher nitrates, the higher pH, or just the fact that the fish are already stressed from the transition to my house? I really want to know why they are dying. If stores are selling fish that are weaker or possibly diseased, do you really think that all of those fish will die within 24-48 hours?

[jessie]

We do have hard water. I believe our taph gH runs around >150? I haven't tested this for awhile since we got a different test kit, I dont think this kit has hardness. It works well for my cichlid tank. I was running peat in canister, and I have several large pieces of driftwood. Isn't that supposed to help with pH and hardness? I thought that I would take my shot at doing South American, but this may not work for the region I live in. And I really am not interested in buying reverse osmosis. So Serpae tetras do better in hard water?

[Chrona]

If stores are selling fish that are weaker or possibly diseased, do you really think that all of those fish will die within 24-48 hours?

Your water may be fine, but if it's different from the LFS water, or if the fish were on their way out from the stress of shipping anyways, then they'll die. Whether they die in 24 hours or 72 hours depends on the species and the particular fish. I had a guppy survive for like 2 days after starting to go belly up before I finally decided to euthanize.

And all almost all tetras will do fine in hard water, as long as you acclimate them slowly. The only exception I've heard about is Cardinal Tetras, which will develop these internal calcium deposits if they are kept in hard water for a long time. I think, in the end it really boils down to the particular shipment and the particular LFS. When I first started tropical fish, my Buenos Aires Tetra did fine in 7.8 pH 20+dGH water, and I only floated the bag to even the temperature.

[sergo]

So Serpae tetras do better in hard water?they are more tolerant of harder water where as rummies pretty much have to have soft water (0-4)

[henkychif]

Cardinals and Rummies are definitely more delicate than most. Ironic, since those are the ones I like the most out of all the Tetras.