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chipper
03-23-2009, 03:08 PM
I started a new thread about water changes and ammonia. so the way i get it is do more that 25% water change to get the numbers down?

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 03:11 PM
Yes, use simple math to figure out how much you need to change.
If you have 8ppm you want to do 1 75%, followed by 1 50% and that will give you around 1ppm. (8/75%=2/50%=1ppm.)

Sharon
03-23-2009, 03:16 PM
If it were me, I'd do 40% now, and again tomorrow, and every day, until Ammonia and Nitrites read below 1ppm. Next, you need to read up on cycling a fish tank, as that will explain what is going on in your tank. I think the Ammonia reading of 8ppm may be inaccurate as the fish would be dead with those levels. What test kit are you using?

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 03:18 PM
Agreed, sorry i didnt say build up to large water changes since we just discussed it on the other thread. I was just using 8ppm as an example, i think his readings are considerably lower now

chipper
03-23-2009, 03:22 PM
I will do that

chipper
03-23-2009, 03:31 PM
If it were me, I'd do 40% now, and again tomorrow, and every day, until Ammonia and Nitrites read below 1ppm. Next, you need to read up on cycling a fish tank, as that will explain what is going on in your tank. I think the Ammonia reading of 8ppm may be inaccurate as the fish would be dead with those levels. What test kit are you using?
I am going to do a 40% water change today. The test kit i am using isAPI Freshwater master test kit.

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 03:36 PM
Test before you wc, and do a 50% to start. Then re test, if the ammonia is not cut in half and you havent used anything like ammo-lock in the past few weeks, you may need a new test kit.

chipper
03-23-2009, 03:41 PM
Test before you wc, and do a 50% to start. Then re test, if the ammonia is not cut in half and you havent used anything like ammo-lock in the past few weeks, you may need a new test kit.
I used ammo-lock saturday when i did the 25% water change.

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 03:54 PM
What are the parameters right now?




Ammo-lock is most likely giving you false readings for the ammonia. If thats the case i'm going to recommend just doing 50% waterchanges daily until your readings are good again. In the future dont use ammonia reducing products, just use water changes. But we'll see, it depends on what your readings are.

chipper
03-23-2009, 04:00 PM
What are the parameters right now?




Ammo-lock is most likely giving you false readings for the ammonia. If thats the case i'm going to recommend just doing 50% waterchanges daily until your readings are good again. In the future dont use ammonia reducing products, just use water changes. But we'll see, it depends on what your readings are.
What about anything like Aquasafe or Biozymen when i do the changes?

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 04:10 PM
Is exactly where it gets complicated. I carry two types for this reason exactly. Generic dechlor for when ammonia is up, and stress coat for when everything is nominal. In theory, if your ammonia test is new enough you should still be able to read the ammonium as well, and the ammonia converters in dechlor arent as well known for giving false readings as ammo lock is.. Its not a reason not to use dechlor, if thats what you mean. Still use it. I just have two types because of the question you just raised, its not needed.

I would look into seeding the filter via some media from an established tank, or get some bacteria supplement like

Teta Safe Start
Api Stress Zyme
Big Als Bio Support

and add it to the filter if seeding is not an option.

chipper
03-23-2009, 04:19 PM
Is exactly where it gets complicated. I carry two types for this reason exactly. Generic dechlor for when ammonia is up, and stress coat for when everything is nominal. In theory, if your ammonia test is new enough you should still be able to read the ammonium as well, and the ammonia converters in dechlor arent as well known for giving false readings as ammo lock is.. Its not a reason not to use dechlor, if thats what you mean. Still use it. I just have two types because of the question you just raised, its not needed.

I would look into seeding the filter via some media from an established tank, or get some bacteria supplement like

Teta Safe Start
Api Stress Zyme
Big Als Bio Support

and add it to the filter if seeding is not an option.
The aquasafe on the bottle says water conditioner on it. And it is made by Tetra. I am so bummed about this tank.

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 04:25 PM
The aquasafe on the bottle says water conditioner on it. And it is made by Tetra. I am so bummed about this tank.
If it doesnt say it removes ammonia, its fine. Really, either way its probably fine like i said above.
However, what are your readings currently?

chipper
03-23-2009, 04:39 PM
If it doesnt say it removes ammonia, its fine. Really, either way its probably fine like i said above.
However, what are your readings currently?
Ammonia is still high 8.0 and nitrite is 5.0. No it does not say removes ammonia. 40 % water change.

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 04:49 PM
Ammonia is still high 8.0 and nitrite is 5.0. No it does not say removes ammonia. 40 % water change.

Ok, do a 50% water change, add the dechlor and test the levels again.

If your ammonia is still at 8, we know ur readings are false for that.
nitrite should come down to about 2.5, otherwise, false again.

If you are getting a lot of false readings you'll want to just do 50% wcs daily until you get true readings and go from there.

chipper
03-23-2009, 04:53 PM
Ok, do a 50% water change, add the dechlor and test the levels again.

If your ammonia is still at 8, we know ur readings are false for that.
nitrite should come down to about 2.5, otherwise, false again.

If you are getting a lot of false readings you'll want to just do 50% wcs daily until you get true readings and go from there.
should i do another water change today and add the dechlor and then test?

Sharon
03-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Hey Chipper....I'm thinking that your Ammonia can't be 8ppm, as the fish would be dead. Either the Ammolock is giving you false readings as Turk said, or you're not shaking the bottles for the required amount of time, when you're doing the tests. You're in good hands with Turk, so I'm going to go finish my water changes...I've been running back and forth to the computer and it's taking me FOREVER!!!:hmm3grin2orange:

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 05:05 PM
should i do another water change today and add the dechlor and then test?

Thanks gem, ur sweet ;)

yup, you can do 25% if you already did one today. We are just confirming 100% that you are getting false readings, and ur ammonia isnt over 8 which like gem said is very unlikely. Watch the nitrite carefully, that should drop as ammo lock usually doesnt give false nitrite readings, in which case you will need to take those down to 1ppm with more water changes.

If i had to guess Id say your ammonia is relatively low, and as long as you take the nitrites down to 1.0ppm your ammonia will probably be that low (until you can test it and actually get a read) because usually when you are seeing nitrite spikes as high as 5.0 the ammonia is already dropping (being turned into that nitrite)

chipper
03-23-2009, 05:09 PM
Hey Chipper....I'm thinking that your Ammonia can't be 8ppm, as the fish would be dead. Either the Ammolock is giving you false readings as Turk said, or you're not shaking the bottles for the required amount of time, when you're doing the tests. You're in good hands with Turk, so I'm going to go finish my water changes...I've been running back and forth to the computer and it's taking me FOREVER!!!:hmm3grin2orange:
Like i said before i am bumbed about this. I am looking at the directions on the bottle and it does not say to shake but i do anyway. then i wait the five minutes then read the test.

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 05:14 PM
Yes, always shake the test bottles vigorously, otherwise you will super-concentrated readings towards the end of the bottle and lesser readings otherwise.

The false readings are from the ammo-lock, its a very common mistake for beginners when they cycle, and it makes sense, you have ammonia, add something that removes it. Many a first timer has found themselves in your position. Do the 50% water changes daily (to remove the ammo lock and keep the levels down) and do any needed extra to keep that nitrite down to 1.0ppm and soon this headache will be gone.

Like i said before though, the bacteria supplement or seeded media will make this go away almost instantly. (not the false readings, but the cycling issues as a whole)

chipper
03-23-2009, 05:16 PM
Thanks gem, ur sweet ;)

yup, you can do 25% if you already did one today. We are just confirming 100% that you are getting false readings, and ur ammonia isnt over 8 which like gem said is very unlikely. Watch the nitrite carefully, that should drop as ammo lock usually doesnt give false nitrite readings, in which case you will need to take those down to 1ppm with more water changes.

If i had to guess Id say your ammonia is relatively low, and as long as you take the nitrites down to 1.0ppm your ammonia will probably be that low (until you can test it and actually get a read) because usually when you are seeing nitrite spikes as high as 5.0 the ammonia is already dropping (being turned into that nitrite)
Ok i will do another 25% water change and test all again to see what happens. wish me luck.

chipper
03-23-2009, 05:19 PM
Yes, always shake the test bottles vigorously, otherwise you will super-concentrated readings towards the end of the bottle and lesser readings otherwise.

The false readings are from the ammo-lock, its a very common mistake for beginners when they cycle, and it makes sense, you have ammonia, add something that removes it. Many a first timer has found themselves in your position. Do the 50% water changes daily (to remove the ammo lock and keep the levels down) and do any needed extra to keep that nitrite down to 1.0ppm and soon this headache will be gone.

Like i said before though, the bacteria supplement or seeded media will make this go away almost instantly. (not the false readings, but the cycling issues as a whole)
I have Biozyme should i add it to the tank after the water change?

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 05:24 PM
I have Biozyme should i add it to the tank after the water change?

Its worth a shot, im not familiar with it but some work some dont. Just make sure you report ur results to us so we know if this brand works in the future. Getting a piece of used filter media from a friend or a petstore would be a much better option.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
03-23-2009, 05:28 PM
Let's clear something up here. Ammo-lock does not remove ammonia. Ammo-lock changes Ammonia into Ammonium. Your reading is not "false" it is simply not being interpreted correctly. 2 things to help clear up what is wrong with the reading. First: API ammonia test kits are not accurate above 4ppm. Second: API test kits test Total Ammonia not just free ammonia. The only true ammonia you have in the tank is anything being produced by the fish. So, your total ammonia reading can be 8ppm with no harm to your fish because 95% of that reading is actually reading the non toxic Ammonium.

chipper
03-23-2009, 05:32 PM
Its worth a shot, im not familiar with it but some work some dont. Just make sure you report ur results to us so we know if this brand works in the future. Getting a piece of used filter media from a friend or a petstore would be a much better option.
I have the filter from were the fish came out of another tank but it has been off for a week but still has the water in it would that be good?

ILuvMyGoldBarb
03-23-2009, 05:52 PM
No. There's no source of ammonia and thus the bacteria in that filter would all be dead.

chipper
03-23-2009, 05:54 PM
No. There's no source of ammonia and thus the bacteria in that filter would all be dead.
ok thank you

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 06:12 PM
To be clear, yes the current api ammonia tests test for both ammonia and ammonium, the by product of using ammo-lock. However, I still do not recommend using ammo-lock, and still recommend large water changes to get positive readings again.

What I mean by positive readings, is when you test you get a number that tells you whether or not your fish are in danger. When testing both ammonia and ammonium with one test theres no way to tell how much is which, and thus how much is harmful. So, if you say "my ammonia is 8ppm", thats a false reading. All my recommendations still stand, and yes the ammo-lock is the cause of your "confusing" readings, and the way to get rid of them is lots of water changes.

I agree, all the bacteria will die without an ammonia source in less than a day, so you would need to get a piece from a tank that is running to seed your filter.

ILuvMyGoldBarb
03-23-2009, 06:18 PM
Chipper, what is the pH in your tank?

chipper
03-23-2009, 06:20 PM
To be clear, yes the current api ammonia tests test for both ammonia and ammonium, the by product of using ammo-lock. However, I still do not recommend using ammo-lock, and still recommend large water changes to get positive readings again.

What I mean by positive readings, is when you test you get a number that tells you whether or not your fish are in danger. When testing both ammonia and ammonium with one test theres no way to tell how much is which, and thus how much is harmful. So, if you say "my ammonia is 8ppm", thats a false reading. All my recommendations still stand, and yes the ammo-lock is the cause of your "confusing" readings, and the way to get rid of them is lots of water changes.

I agree, all the bacteria will die without an ammonia source in less than a day, so you would need to get a piece from a tank that is running to seed your filter.
Ok i will go to pet store and ask him for some. I just did a another water change 25% and now the ammonia is 4.0 from 8.0. Nitrite is now 1.0 from 5.0 and nitrate is 0.0 to 5.0

chipper
03-23-2009, 06:21 PM
Chipper, what is the pH in your tank?
the ph is 6.4

ILuvMyGoldBarb
03-23-2009, 06:22 PM
Then the answer to the ammonia question is simple. THere is no free ammonia in the tank.

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 06:24 PM
Sounds like you may not even need it. If your ammonia(maybe) and nitrite both went down that much from a 25% water change it means at least the nitrite is dropping on its own as well. Seems you are close to the end of your cycling process. It also means you should have clear ammonia readings soon.

Of course, picking some up just in case, and for future use wouldnt be a bad idea.

My point and only point here being: ammonia reducers dont do anything for the tank that waterchanges wont do more accurately and effectively, without running the risk of messing with test results.

chipper
03-23-2009, 06:29 PM
Sounds like you may not even need it. If your ammonia(maybe) and nitrite both went down that much from a 25% water change it means at least the nitrite is dropping on its own as well. Seems you are close to the end of your cycling process. It also means you should have clear ammonia readings soon.

Of course, picking some up just in case, and for future use wouldnt be a bad idea.

My point and only point here being: ammonia reducers dont do anything for the tank that waterchanges wont do more accurately and effectively, without running the risk of messing with test results.
If i pick someup from the pet store how could i keep it if i need it?

Wild Turkey
03-23-2009, 06:30 PM
If i pick someup from the pet store how could i keep it if i need it?

They are supposed to be good at room temperature for 1 year but will llast longer if refrigerated.

chipper
03-23-2009, 06:39 PM
They are supposed to be good at room temperature for 1 year but will llast longer if refrigerated.
Ok I will do a water change again on Tuesday and test the water. I will keep in touch on how things turn out.

chip

Sharon
03-23-2009, 07:49 PM
Like i said before i am bumbed about this. I am looking at the directions on the bottle and it does not say to shake but i do anyway. then i wait the five minutes then read the test.


Hang on!!!...the directions do not say to shake???:ssuprised: ...API test kit?:ssuprised: There is definite instructions to shake bottle 2 for 30sec before using...and shake one minute when everything's added...

chipper
03-23-2009, 07:57 PM
Hang on!!!...the directions do not say to shake???:ssuprised: ...API test kit?:ssuprised: There is definite instructions to shake bottle 2 for 30sec before using...and shake one minute when everything's added...
that is what i was saying. On the back of the cards say shake so that is when i shake it.