It's official....I'm the worst fish keeper ever.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

Well I have to say until i get things figured out i'm through buying fish.

I figured the 5 cardinals i got died because they're just fragile, so i got 3 neon dwarf rainbows to go with my other 2.

1 stayed at the surface the second i put them in(after i had dripped accumulated them for 1 hour). By that morning it was a goner, but i saw a 2nd hovering right at the surface, few hours later it was a goner too. Don't know about the 3rd...

I still haven't gotten a nitrate tester after i realized I wasn't using my old one correctly. That's the only thing i can think of that would kill these fish. Except this is basically the same as the other dozens of fish i've killed so i don't think it's the problem that much.

What is something unusual that would kill a lot of fish other then the normal things? I just can't see these fish dying right away after drip accumulating them...so it's something else. I've got 2 rummynose that have been in the tank for months so it's not something killing all the fish, just the new ones.

[Red]

that really sucks. I think there is something in the tank or water like copper or something (just a example). Do you still have your 20 gallon? Do you have the same problem in there?

[PUNISHER VETTE]

that really sucks. I think there is something in the tank or water like copper or something (just a example). Do you still have your 20 gallon? Do you have the same problem in there?


When i saw the 2nd rainbow fish just hovering at the surface i quickly took it out and put it in my 30g shrimp tank. It still died within the next couple of hours.

But I haven't had fish in my shrimp tank since i made it a shrimp tank a few months ago...
BUT when it was my only tank i had trouble keeping neons in that tank too....

[PostalPenguin]

Could it just be the stress of the physical move from one tank to another? How long is the drive from the store to home? :-/

[Mith]

Pardon me if you already gave this info....but is it a new tank and if so, was it cycled yet?

[Northernguy]

Pardon me if you already gave this info....but is it a new tank and if so, was it cycled yet?
The tank has been set up for months now Mith,but good call.
PUNISHER VETTE are all the fish coming from the same store?
Is your water very different from theirs? ph for example?

[Wild Turkey]

I was leaning towards NG's explanation or something to that effect. I was gonna say " when in doubt, acclimate slower" it never hurts..unless somehow you are doing it so slowly that the temp is dropping considerably, but that would be hard to do i think. I have done it over several hours and never seen that

Mith, since its punn and we know him pretty well we were kind of ruling out cycling issues, but yes good call, the parameters werent listed and thats a key question otherwise.

[terrapin24h]

vette--
I've been around this board for a bit, and i can't ever remember you not having problems. Thing is, you do everything right. For lack of a better answer, i can only think there is something really different between your water and the lfs'. What's really wierd is that you have a SHRIMP TANK that is doing well. I would suspect that if you were going to have a hard time with something due to water quality, it would be shrimp--they aren't know for being hardy(course neither are cardinals and neons). I can only think of two ways you can isolate the locus of the problem to being your water:
--start doing water changes with bottled water or RO water(you can buy it at lfs at the big chain petstores)
--have your aquarium and tap water professionally tested(not cheap) and look for anomalies in your water that way. You might be able to get a local university biology dept to test it for you for free.

you've done everything else. Unless you do have a nitrate factory(i just had to cure my tank of that syndrome due to a little overfeeding) I don't see what it could be. If can't get a trate test kit, take some water to a good lfs and see what reading they get. Ill keep thinking on it(as im sure most of us will) and maybe ask a couple people i know that have been doing reefs for years and see what they think. GL

--chris

[Mith]

I was leaning towards NG's explanation or something to that effect. I was gonna say " when in doubt, acclimate slower" it never hurts..unless somehow you are doing it so slowly that the temp is dropping considerably, but that would be hard to do i think. I have done it over several hours and never seen that

Mith, since its punn and we know him pretty well we were kind of ruling out cycling issues, but yes good call, the parameters werent listed and thats a key question otherwise.

(Mith runs out of the thread sobbing like a little school girl)


LOL

[Mvjnz]

I'd say acclimatise slower. For some fish one hour isn't enough, and especially not if your pH and hardness are significantly different. Use at least two hours from now on, and see what that does.

If you get all the fish from the same store, try a different store. I've had fish from the same store bought at different times just go and die for no apparent reason, but when getting the same kind of fish from a different store they are fine.

[Tigerbarb]

Hmm...the fish could have been very sensetive and you didn't acclimate them long enough.
I'd definitly test all your water paremeters, or take a water sample to your lfs to get it tested, because if your water quality is not very good, new fish will probably not thrive in your tank.


Tigerbarb

[mac]

No you got that wrong. I am the worst fish keeper ever!!. Just a hint of sarcasm with a bit of a comforting. Sorry to hear about your loss. It is a real shame.:22: (blush)

I have found that from time to time the Dwarf Neon Rainbows just die for no reason. Normally I will get 4-6 and half will die. That is with some batches.

Wonder if they are wild caught??

mac

[PUNISHER VETTE]

Checking the water is probably the easiest. But the LFS is only 1mile from me and when i brought my water in to them once they said it was exactly what theirs is. Although my water has probably changed by then...

I'd have to say that once the fish make it the first week they're usually fine. (except for my neons who have NTD i think but that's another issue) So it probably has to do with accumulating them. Either there's a huge difference in water quality or something hard for them to get used to in my water...

It's 110g so i really don't want to start using RO/store bought water as it'll take FOREVER to do changes.

Things to consider: my CO2 system was running at the time. The second i put the fish in and saw the one not doing so well i quickly turned the air stone on and left it on all night while it died and the other got sick. Could a higher level of CO2 for the new fish be that hard to get used to? Obviously not high enough that it kills the fish already in the tank but maybe high enough that 1hr of drip accumulation wasn't enough? Although this explanation doesn't really make up for my other fish i've lost but it may be a start

Also i need to look at the drip method some more. In that 1 hour i basically only doubled the water that they came in. I probably should have added more via drip.

But it just seems that being trapped in a small container they bang the walls when i walk up so i don't like to leave them in the container very long if i can help it.

[riot]

Checking the water is probably the easiest. But the LFS is only 1mile from me and when i brought my water in to them once they said it was exactly what theirs is. Although my water has probably changed by then...

I'd have to say that once the fish make it the first week they're usually fine. (except for my neons who have NTD i think but that's another issue) So it probably has to do with accumulating them. Either there's a huge difference in water quality or something hard for them to get used to in my water...

It's 110g so i really don't want to start using RO/store bought water as it'll take FOREVER to do changes.

Things to consider: my CO2 system was running at the time. The second i put the fish in and saw the one not doing so well i quickly turned the air stone on and left it on all night while it died and the other got sick. Could a higher level of CO2 for the new fish be that hard to get used to? Obviously not high enough that it kills the fish already in the tank but maybe high enough that 1hr of drip accumulation wasn't enough? Although this explanation doesn't really make up for my other fish i've lost but it may be a start

Also i need to look at the drip method some more. In that 1 hour i basically only doubled the water that they came in. I probably should have added more via drip.

But it just seems that being trapped in a small container they bang the walls when i walk up so i don't like to leave them in the container very long if i can help it.

I wish my LFS was only one mile from my house. I dont know what to say about the problem that hasnt already been said. Good luck pun.

[MCHRKiller]

If I remember correctly this tanks has an FX5 and is fairly well planted? If so CO2 injection should not be a problem. There are 2 possibilities that I see could be wrong with why your fish are dying. Even if your tank was less than desireable healthy fish wouldnt die instantly like that, they would linger on get sick and then die. So therefor my first possibility is that your LFS's water quality is poor, the fish are literally shocked by good water quality that its to much for their already strained system thus they die. I see this alot in my LFS when to many fish have been packed into bags and I have gotten lazy that day and didnt drip acclimate them over the course of half the day. Thus Ive started checking the water quality of the bags before releasing them. Have you ever checked your LFS's water quality? Secondly you could be purchasing fish soon after they have been in your LFS and your LFS doesnt have a holding time on fish that are newly arrived. The simple shock of being mad stocked at a distributer, packed up and shipped half the world away, arriving at the LFS with still heavy stocking and then packed up and moved yet again in the course of a few days would do any fish in, could just be all that moving around. Ask when your store gets in shipments and go the day before they get a new one so the fish your getting have been there atleast a few days to somewhat recover.

We wont even consider the neons, neons are so prone to disease and alot of times are just in really poor condition from the get go. I loose more neon tetras than any other fish at my LFS and that is one of the few species that gets a week long stay in the back before going out into the sell tanks due to the amount of losses Ive been getting off them after coming in.

[fishlover49]

That really stinks. :scry: Hope you get it figured out. There is nothing more frustrating Than losing fish. :scry:

AND, you are not the worst fish keeper. It sure doesn't sound like any of this is your fault at all! Just something messing up somewhere. That can happen to anyone.

[Lady Hobbs]

A lot depends on neons and they can be iffy. If they are purchased by you the day they were delivered at the store, they are still stressed from their journey. They have dealt with that stress, many to a bag, water foul and dumped into tank water totally different. Before they can recover, here we come and they are again chased around with a net, stuck in a big and going thru another journey.

I acclimate about 15 minutes (all my fish) but what I found with neons is they do much better in cooler temps.....like 68-74. Out of the last 40 I purchased, I lost only one. Prior to that, I would buy 10 and loose about 3.

I also found small water changes a couple times a week, working up to larger water changes works better than just big water changes right off. We are talking fish as long as an eyelash here. How much stress can they stand? I haven't lost a neon now in about 3 months and have a few in my breeder trying to get some fry.

[travie]

How do you transport them from the LFS to your home? Loud music, extreme temperatures, a lot of bumps, or a lot of stopping real fast and speeding up quickly? I know you said it is only a mile, but who knows.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

How do you transport them from the LFS to your home? Loud music, extreme temperatures, a lot of bumps, or a lot of stopping real fast and speeding up quickly? I know you said it is only a mile, but who knows.

lol i try not to drive like i normally do...which is to say the least not the safest.

But I do remember one turn when i wasn't holding onto the bad and it spilled onto it's side.

loud music....a little bit.
no quick temp changes

I find this interesting as it's one of the few constants over the last year...

[Wild Turkey]

lol i try not to drive like i normally do...which is to say the least not the safest.

But I do remember one turn when i wasn't holding onto the bad and it spilled onto it's side.

loud music....a little bit.
no quick temp changes

I find this interesting as it's one of the few constants over the last year...

Yea a little tip didnt kill them, nor did any loud music but hobbs brings up a great point, and a great reason to ask how long they have had the fish. Little things like that may come into play if the fish is already very stressed or weak, but i doubt the are ever the sole cause of death. I still play loud music around my fish all the time, they get used to it. Its kinda the whole "dont let the fishes quality of life get in the way of mine" to a point, of course

Im still on the acclimate slower side of this. If you try acclimation over 2-3 hours and you still loose a bunch, then its time to start scratching your head. We all know how sensitive neons are nowadays.

For an example, that ten gallon i have with neons has 12 now, did have 7. Didnt loose one either time, drip acclimated. The corys are getting moved though, dont worry:ssmile:

[Taurus]

I'm with Jenn on this one. The lfs still should test your water for free and verify all water parameters. They may learn a thing or two about the water quality in their own store. I would be testing or having the water tested once per day until you know that the parameters do not vary to a large extent.

Good Luck PV :22:

[PUNISHER VETTE]

Well i do know the neon dwarf rainbow fish that i got this last time had been in the store at least a few weeks if not longer.

I went once and they had a bunch then a few weeks later i came back and picked some up. Although they could have gotten more within that time i kinda doubt it.

This LFS is pretty well known as being a good one around my area for many miles around. And it's either them or petsmart or meijer...


I'll get the proper test kit, have the LFS test the water as well. Then i'll make sure i drip accumulate them for longer and see what happens.

When i left this morning the 3rd neon seemed fine. but 1/3 isn't going to cut it.

[wolf_eyes]

the only thing i can really think of is that the ph is really different,or the lfs is using RO water. I know when i bought some trilleanus corys from the lfs and dripped them for a few hours the ph shock was still too much. If they are usin ro water there are a lot fo different minerals,metals, etc for the fish to get used to so this may be stressing them out as well. Fish dying within 24 hours can be a sign of ph shock. I would drip acclimate them for longer, and see if that helps

[MCHRKiller]

lol, no I ment for *you* to test your LFS's water. Before any fish enters any of my home systems or even shipments coming into my LFS I like to know what its being housed in lately. Like say If I bring home a fish from Petsmart, Ill test the water in its bag before beginning to acclimate the fish. It gives me an idea of how long I need to take to acclimate them. I do believe that your LFS's stock is under more stress than they need be when you buy them and I am sure that the move is the final straw. I would try getting some livestock from Petsmart or somewhere just to see if it has a diffrence.

[ndntakeover]

Here's a pointer to avoid journey related stressed fish. Usually when the large pet stores like petsmart get their fish it's during one day. So to avoid stressed fish, ask the store when they receive the shipments and try to buy ur fish two days or the day before they get a new shipment. By this time any fish that was fatally stressed because of the journey will already have died and you can be almost certain that any deaths after can't be due to journey related stress .

Ps I believe petsmart receives it's shipments on Saturday? If that is true then buy ur fish on Thursday or friday. Hope this helps.

[PUNISHER VETTE]

would it be bad to only get 1 neon dwarf rainbow fish to see if our theory of longer drip accumulation works?
obviously after i do some testing...

or should i get 2 or 3 again so they can keep company while going through all this?

[mac]

Do you know how long your LFS quarentines his fish for?
Also I would test the water of the LFS like Jenn has stated. I do the same and find it very rewarding, less fish die.

mac

[PUNISHER VETTE]

Do you know how long your LFS quarentines his fish for?
Also I would test the water of the LFS like Jenn has stated. I do the same and find it very rewarding, less fish die.

mac

If i test it and it's as far off from mine as you can get then what?
Do i ask them for some water to test before i buy the fish?

[mac]

If i test it and it's as far off from mine as you can get then what?
Do i ask them for some water to test before i buy the fish?

Yup ask for water to test there water. As for what to do you drip feed the new fish for as long as you can. I have done up to a whole day for some of my fish.

mac