120 liter aquarium

[sid101]

hello all i am starting to make the list of what i want and/or need to make my first reef marine aquarium, i post this list in case i have forgotten anything maybe i can get some help over here.

>120 litle aquarium with 3 bulb lamp.
>600liter per hour hang on skimmer
>800liter per hour multi stage mecanical and biological canister filter
>300 or 500 liter per hour powerhead.

>1 or 2 damsels
>1 flame angelfish
>2 ocellaris or Clarkii with their own anemonae
>1 dwarf lionfish (not really a must since i want the normal one but its too big for the tank)
>1 coral beauty angelfish
>1 pajama cardinal fish (not really a must)
>2 cleaner shrimp (maybe just one?)
>1 mandarin gobie
>1 butterfly fish (i saw it on my locel shop its pretty small compared to the other butterfly fish the call it "niosh" or something like that but i havent been able to find it online)
about
>also i would like to add a couple of starfish and also a couple of sea urchin.

This list of fish as i see it its overpopulating for the size of the aquarium i`ve chosen maybe you can help me with it?

i`ve selected crushed corals and shells for my substrate and as much live rock to cover as much of the back part of the aquarium so the fish have many places to hide and as i call it "play pickaboo"

of course all the tests and chemicals.

Do you think i should have a couple of plants?

i was thinking of having a chiller and a ph controler (the one with co2) so temperature and ph are maintained stable with litle action from me?

what have i forgotten? what could i improve? what is your advice? 2 months of preparing the water and bacteria colonies before adding the fish?

[labnjab]

hello all i am starting to make the list of what i want and/or need to make my first reef marine aquarium, i post this list in case i have forgotten anything maybe i can get some help over here.

>120 litle aquarium with 3 bulb lamp.
>600liter per hour hang on skimmer
>800liter per hour multi stage mecanical and biological canister filter
>300 or 500 liter per hour powerhead.

>1 or 2 damsels
>1 flame angelfish
>2 ocellaris or Clarkii with their own anemonae
>1 dwarf lionfish (not really a must since i want the normal one but its too big for the tank)
>1 coral beauty angelfish
>1 pajama cardinal fish (not really a must)
>2 cleaner shrimp (maybe just one?)
>1 mandarin gobie
>1 butterfly fish (i saw it on my locel shop its pretty small compared to the other butterfly fish the call it "niosh" or something like that but i havent been able to find it online)
about
>also i would like to add a couple of starfish and also a couple of sea urchin.

This list of fish as i see it its overpopulating for the size of the aquarium i`ve chosen maybe you can help me with it?

i`ve selected crushed corals and shells for my substrate and as much live rock to cover as much of the back part of the aquarium so the fish have many places to hide and as i call it "play pickaboo"

of course all the tests and chemicals.

Do you think i should have a couple of plants?

i was thinking of having a chiller and a ph controler (the one with co2) so temperature and ph are maintained stable with litle action from me?

what have i forgotten? what could i improve? what is your advice? 2 months of preparing the water and bacteria colonies before adding the fish?
First thing I would start with is tons of research. Thats roughly 31 us gallons. I would get 30-50 lbs live rock, 50 lbs sand (live or dead) and that would be your filtration along with a skimmer and a couple of powerheads (1 or 2 korilia 2's is what I recomend). Man made filtration is not needed and start with the rock and sand that an let it cycle for a few weeks before even thinking about livestock and that's only after researching extensivly. After it cycles I would add a small clean up crew.

You also need to decide if you want it as a reef, just FOWLR or fish only(no recommended for novice)

Out of the stock you have listed the only things that would work is a pair of clowns, a cleaner shrimp, and a cardinal or 2 and possibly a damsal (but I would steer clear of them). Saltwater needs to be stocked lightly and the other fish listed need much bigger tanks

Star fish have a very low survival rate in captivity and a urchin needs a marture tank and a 31 gallon would be kinda small

Thats my 2 sense and others will chime in with their opinion.

[sid101]

Nice man thank you!!!, i really need this feedback, since most of my research is based in one book and talking to the fish guys in my local aquariums, i know the list of fish i got is really big and i really need advice on how to reduce it from people that knows very much from own experimentation, im not saying the fish guys i have talked to dont know much about saltwater aquariums but i think home aquarists often know much more about speciphic fished than tehy do.

What if i upsize it to 75 gallon? i may be able to clear enough space to do so...

[sid101]

anyone else? i would really love the feedback

[AABatteries]

If you get a 75g you could have the two angels you wanted. There are no "plants" for SW, unless you count cheato and other macro algaes.

[rageybug]

With the 75g tank your stocking list seems a little better but still a bit crowded. Just remember that your live rock (LR) will take up 50% or more of the tank. With the right amount of LR, maybe 75-90lbs you will have a 35-40g swimming area.

You may want to choose between the two angels. The flame angel can be a bit of a nasty guy towards other dwarf angels. I just picked up a coral beauty tonight, in fact the bag is still floating! Angels are known to nip at stoney and soft corals too. If you want these corals, maybe pass on the angels. Coral Beauty Angels are usually a bit better for a reef than a Flame Angel.

Have you thought about a cleaner crew for your tank yet? This is an essential "first step" towards stocking a SW tank. I order all of my inverts from [Only Registered Users Can See Links.]. They offer free shipping on orders over $99 and have great stuff. Their stock is a little low right now because they just moved to a new location but worth a look. [Only Registered Users Can See Links.] is good too.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Agreed. Your stocking list is way overstocked for a 120 liter tank.The Dwarf lion with those other choices would be a problem, they will eat any fish they can fit in their mouth. The mandarin for that size tank is also a poor choice because of dietary needs. Flame Angels and Coral Beauties are generally fine with corals, but as Rageybug mentioned, they can still be a problem sometimes, and also as he said, choose between one of the other, the 2 will fight. The Anemone is also not a necessity, and given the lighting that you indicated, you couldn't support one anyway. As for the Butterfly, there are no members of that family small enough for a 120 liter tank.

[rageybug]

You could do just the dwarf lionfish in the 120L tank... it would be a nice set-up for a FOWLR tank. You could put a Valentini Puffer in there too... but nothing else.

[sid101]

Hmm. i think i really need to start thinking in the 75 gal or more, its just a matter of space and clearance, i dont know why i forgot about a cleaning crew but i will now, so i should think about 4 bulbs if i want the anemone?

what do you think would be the aquarium size for all of my lists fishes?

btw: thank you so much for the feedback, i have a lot of experience with freshwater but marine aquariums i still find a litle intimidating so i need all the feedback from you guys since in here (Venezuela) fishkeeping specially marine is quite expensive for instance a small tomato clonfish is over 50$ i would actually love to be able to buy at those webstores but i dont think anything would survive such a long shipping and shouldnt be very legal.

[rageybug]

If you gave the means to do it, 100g or more would be best. Cances are you will get the itch to add more fish down the road. A bigger tank leaves you with options. It is a pain in the neck to move your reef to a bigger tank later so try to start with the tank you want to have long term.

[sid101]

Thank you all so much for your feedback!!! rageybug thank you so much for the links!

So lets see if this new set up is working better since i tried but cant clear the space for a 75 or 100 gal tank so i have to stay with my 30gal (120 liter) tank.

The problem with the cleaning crew is actually that not much of it is found easily here, so im finding as much as i can of it, i talked today with a guy who really made me feel he knows what hes doing in marine and here is what we were able to find in diferent stores:

>10 Nassarius Snails
>10 Nerite Snails
>10 white and 15 blue leg hermits.
>1 serpent starfish
>2 boxing crabs.
>The guy told me a small urchil could help a lot and here you can find them pretty easily.

Seems like a need a litle more snails right?

So for the tank equipment i have come to:

>2 powerheads 400gph each (would love to find the korilias but kinda hard here).
Would love to find a wavemaker in here.
>Berlin Air Lift 60 skimmer with an Optima Air Pump A807 pump.

For my live stock i think i would go well if i go for:

>2 ocellaris with their anemonae (with the 3 bulb seting the lamp has the guy told me the anemonae and some corals could be kept)
>1 butterfly (still cant find the exact species, its kinda hard to look for it in american books when you live in a city who has the caribean sea 20 miles north so there are some fishes that are common in here but nowhere else)
>1 cleaner shrimp
>also was told i could have the mandarin gobie.

This would be it for live stock.

34-40 pounds of live rock for my reef and about 10 to 15 pounds of crushed coral mixed with live sand.

What do you think guys? any improvements? :ssmile:

I think i have forgotten to pay my apologies in advance for my english since it is my second language, i live in venezuela wich is a spanish speaking country.

[sid101]

bad idea the berlin airlift skimmer, dont have enough clearance above water cuz of the lighting (jewel case aquarium) so i think ill have to use a prizm hang on skimmer or any other good hang on skimmer.

[rageybug]

You could probably stand to double the number of snails and hermits.

As for the mandarin goby... bad idea. They live almost solely on copepods. In a 30g tank, they will eat every single copepod in even the most established aquarium in about a week. You would need to constantly add store bought copepods to your tank, have a refugium and supplemet it's feeding with mysis shrimp. Chances are, you will even have a hard time getting it to eat the shrimp. It would simply starve to death in such a small tank.

As for the anemone, what kind are you considering? Not all anemone will host a clown. Some anemone will out grow your tank too. A carpet anemone is a great host but would be way too big for a 30g tank.

An urchin can be a great addition to a reef tank but they are kown to knock down live rock. You will want to make sure the reef is really stable before adding the urchin.

Sounds to me like you have some good ideas and some big plans but you are a long way from being ready to do this tank. Take some time to really consider how much time and money you are willing to sacrifice in this 30g tank. You are kind of heading towards a disaster unless you have a solid plan to follow before you start.

[AABatteries]

I would go against getting the prizm, they're good, but there are definitely better. You should look into getting a tunze or remora aquac.

You will probably want more substrate than that. 15lbs will only cover about 1/2".

I would also advise against the anemone, because a 30g is too small.

The two crabs is probably a bad idea, one will, more than likely, kill the other.

I would also add some turbo snails to the CUC(Clean-up crew). And what kind of lighting is it?

[rageybug]

I think the 2 boxing crabs will be okay in a 30g tank. Anything smaller and they might not get along but as long as there is plenty of hiding places in the rock they should be okay.

Better safe than sorry though. Maybe 1 boxing crab and an emerald or porcelain crab.

The turbo snails are a great idea. I meant to put that in my last post but forgot... you beat me to it!!

[AABatteries]

Yah. And wouldn't a 30g be a little small for any butterfly?

[rageybug]

Pretty sure they all need 50g+ but I could be wrong. Maybe a dwarf angel like a Flame angel or Coral Beauty would look good in the 30g. There are a number or nice wrasse and cardinals that would go well in a 30g with the clowns too.

[sid101]

its so amazing how different marine is from freshwater i have been doing freswater for over 15 years breeded over 10 species including green discus and some other pretty dificult stuff but marine really has me exited and scared at the same time.

Weird fact about venezuela: we breed and capture discus in here basically we produce them (they are from the orinoco river wich is ours), we also breed ocellaris, skunk and tomato clownfish, a 4 inch discus is cheaper than a 1 inch juvenile ocellaris (either bred or captured).

So let me see if i get it.

The goby goes out (i wont sacrifice my crabs and invertebrates for a fish no matter how beautyfull it is).

For the anemonae i was thinking about a pink tip that gets imported here and is a good host for the ocellaris clownfish but the size is something that has been concerning me too, anyone knows about a anemoneae that could fit in a 30 gal aquarium and host both (or at least one) clownfish?

I have to underline the stability of my liverock instalation for the urchil.

So upgrade my sand quantity to about 25-30 lbs?

The skimmer thing well.. my skimmer options in here are pretty limited but i guess i could order online the berlin hang-on, would that be a better choice?

I called my fish guy new friend and he told me turbo snails can be found but are rare and scarce, i told him as soon as the store gets some turbo snails to save about 20 for me for what i've read that could complete my crean up crew.

As for the crabs i forgot to tell you i plan on having a coral banded shrimp, so maybe only one boxer and one emerald or spoted crab would be a better choice.

I think regarding fish i should better just start with 2 ocellaris and get a grip on my aquarium with only them first, then think about new tenants (as sson as i get to know the name of the angelfish i am telling you guys about ill let you know its about 3 inches longs, very much alike the horned butterfly fish).

[rageybug]

I like the sounds of this... you are slowing it down!!

If you want to put the coral banded shrimp in you are okay to put the boxing crab. You can actually go with several porcelain crabs if you want. They are small and get along well in groups. The emerald will be fine too but I'm not sure that he will tolerate another emerald in that size tank.

[AABatteries]

Anemones are NOT needed for clown fish, especially tank raised. If you get a tank raised one it will be more likely to host a coral over the anemone.

[sid101]

Thank you guys, today i got my turbo snails!!!! i prepayed 40 of those litle fellas since they told me they are the best cleaning crew snails!!!

AA i know the anemones are not a must but the behaviour of marine fish is really what got me into marine aquariums, i would really love to see the clowns swimming and "playing" in the anemone please understand my effort to have one that the ocellaris clownfish will make their own and at the same time being able to use my 30 gal tank.

I have one question, how good biological filtration is? i mean in every book you read they tell you that biological is SOOOOO important but here i have read some people use only skimmers as my current plan is but at the same time most people i talk to tell me to put at leas a cascade filter on my tank for the biological filtration, i would also like to have some kind of place to put an "IceProbe Thermoelectric Aquarium Chiller" so i can make my inverts happier and also to put the heater in too (tropical country, cool at night hot at day). Would be advisable to have some kind of biological filtration i have heard the best is (besides a wet-dry filter) a biowheel... i mean it looks like: biological=old school - skimmer only= new school.

I have used biological filtration on freshwater all my life and never had anything bad to say about it but well things change and times change and since marine is new to me i better ask a full comunity instead of blindly trusting whatever i read.

i know my live rock and live sand would carry most of my biological filtration but if i put on biological filtration shouldnt it help me use less rock and sand and thus allowing my creatures to have more space for themselves? Altho the more filtration i have the best my water quality will be right?

What do you guys think about this? biological or not biological?

[labnjab]

The only biological filtration you need is the rock and sand (1-1.5 lbs per gallon of rock), and its 100 times better the any man made filter. Man made bio-filters in a reef aquarium can spell trouble. You end up getting nitrate spikes. Our tank is a 29 gallon with a 20 gallon sump and has been running since September of 2008. It has 50-55 lbs of live rock and 50lbs of live sand. We have not seen any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate since it finished cycling. Recently we had a yellow clown goby go missing (it didn't jump out so it had to die in the tank) We never found a body and never once had a parameter spike, so between the live rock and CUC they took care of it.

We also had a very large Mexican turbo snail go missing for about a week. I found its shell in the back of the tank, filled with black goo. In a fw tank with man-made filters it would have caused a huge ammonia or nitrate spike, but I never once saw any ammonia or nitrate.

So in my opinion, I would not go with a man made filter. The rock is going to be more then enough as long as you don't overstock and you get a sufficient amount. You can, but its going to add unessary weekly or bi-weekly maintainance. You would have to regulary clean the media to keep your nitrates down

[sid101]

I dont understand, you have a sump but not biological filter? or you put live rock and sand in it to filter with them and not balls or other man made biological filters? this really got me confused...

Please excuse me i have never used a sump or wet-dry filters in my life and i really dont knwo about them and how you can use them.

sorry

[labnjab]

In my sump I have a skimmer, some rock rubble, 2 types of marco algae (chaeto and one other type) and a mangrove as well as a phosphate remover (pura pad) This is an older pic before I started running phosphate remover

I do have a filter sock on the sumps intake and a sponge on the return pump (to protect the pump from sand and stray snails) and both get cleaned out weekly if not bi weekly so they don't build up any type of bacteria

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Sid, the biological filter is the bacteria that live in the live rock. You have 2 processes going on; nitrification and de-nitrification. The nitrification is the breaking down of the ammonia and nitrite into nitrate. The de-nitrification is the breaking down of the nitrate to just nitrogen which is then in turn gassed of at the surface of the water. There are different kinds of media that are condusive to the growth of your biological filter, the bio-wheel being one of them, but in a marine tank, the absolute best "media" for your biological filtration is Live Rock.

[sid101]

So it could be fair to say that is i fill up a sump or canister filter with live rock/sand or a combination of both i could improve that biological cicle even a big cascade filter filled with this media could improve water quality and stability of such conditions?
This is just a theoretical question.

[ILuvMyGoldBarb]

Well, there are more benefits to putting the live rock in the tank. If you want the natural actions of reef fish then you need rock caves for them to hide in at night. Live rock also becomes the mounting space for corals. Some people do place large amounts of live rock in their sump as it is still beneficial. The great thing about placing it in the sump is that you still get the benefit of the live rock without taking up any more swimming space then necessary. In theory you could have a 55gal tank with a sump large enough to hold 75 pounds of live rock and you could put all your rock in the sump, but it would be a very boring tank with no place for the fish to hide.

[sid101]

Oh of course, but if i have my back wall of live rock with many places for the fish to use and besides that rock i have a sump or large external filter or any kind and add even more live rock or sand i woudl increase my water volume wich would be better, add even more of the best filtration i can get, and i could have a place to put in a heater and a thermoelectric chiller so i can ensure those conditions too, of course i cannto fly before spread wings so the sump would be a future thing but the information is great now so i can understand better the functioning of the micro ecosystem of the aquarium.

Actually sounds great, i could use the 3 stages of the sump, 1 for good algae, 1 for more biological filtration and the other one for heaters, skimmer, chiller, maybe a uv...

Thank you for the info i grealty apreciate it.

[sid101]

NICE!!! new change, i foudn this beauty in a local shop:

This is the same aquarium as the link but without the integrated filter is bigger and the lamp has 3 bulbs too.

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

what do you think? better?

[sid101]

Well i didnt "find it" one of the shop guys i have talked to sent me a sms teling me "loor for the AR-830 aquarium we are getting some next week" so i spent all night looking for the image so i could show you guys :)

I think is a great tank, and a nice size improvement that i can fit in the space i cleared for it.

[rageybug]

It would make a nice reef tank, the radius corners are a nice bonus. The light fixture on the tank, even though there are 3 bulbs, is still just a plain old floresent light. It will light the tank very well but will not provide much benefit towards corals, the anemone you want or help show off the beautiful colours on the marine fish you want. In my opinion, the best way to start a reef tank is to buy a plain tank, nothing with it. Buy lights seperatly that will meet your needs and get a power head of some type to create flow and a heater. Other than sand and LR, you've got a basic reef set-up. I know it can be cheaper to buy an all-in-one tank but often you will have equipment you don't need or is not good enough for your intended use.


As far as your filtration questions, I have to agree that LR is all you will need. Good quality LR will filter a tank way better than any hang-on or canister filter. Look for good pourus LR. The more holes, caves, indents there is on the rock, the greater the surface area. More surface area means more "good stuff" on the rocks to clean up the tank. 1lb - 1.5lb of rock per gallon is recomended. That means 30-45lbs in your tank. Yes, you could run a sump and put a portion of the LR in there to create more room in your main tank but you would be suprised how heavy LR can be. 30lbs of LR is not that much. The more LR you can use the better too. My 70g reef has way more than 100lbs of LR. I have no idea exactly how much as I've added to it after the original set-up. I am guessing it is close to 140-150lbs. This is more than I need but I run no sump or anything else. Just the LR and a Koralia pump. Here is a link to see what it is...

[Only Registered Users Can See Links.]

A proper clean up crew (CUC) is essential too but I think you already knew that!

[snorkel_kid87]

I agree with most of what has been said in here, especially what rageybug has already said about the lights and the mandarin goby. As pretty as they are, they are very difficult to keep in a small, new aquarium. Make sure the guys at the fish store aren't just trying get sales up.

In regards to the dwarf lionfish, I think you will be more then likely to house these with the angelfish/clownfish/damselfish you have mentioned. Just make sure he is not considerably larger then these when you first get him, and also keep him well fed. I have never had a problem.

Oh and another note, as I'm sure its been mentioned a few times, be careful with overstocking your tank. It is VERY easy to get carried away and do this (as many new SW aquarist will tell you).

GOOD LUCK and look forward to some pics :)

[sid101]

2 news!

First, i went to yet another shop today the biggest one i have gone so far, so i start talking to the fishguy about a tank and he tells me "i can get you something much better for much less" so the deal he offers to me is:

>105gal aquarium.
>2 lamps with 2 SmartPaq Power Compact Lamp - 10,000k Day & 460nm Actinic - 130W each.
>sump with overflow.
>a used 200gal tank rated skimmer.
>the furniture to hold the aquarium and host everything.
>400 pounds of live rock and sand and some mangles and "good" algae (for the sump).
>all my cleaning crew once the tank is cycled plus 1 cleaning shrimp and 4 assorted crabs (i get to choose them).
>1 adjustable 2000gal per hour pump (for the sump)
>2 850gal powerheads.
>4 timers for the lights and powerheads.

all this for 6000 Bolivars (my country`s currency) about 1200 dollars (4 months pay for me)

So i think that is a pretty sweet deal just a litle expensive for me right now but i can pay him in parts so its not big deal BUT the big deal is i have only been able to clear 1 meter of wall space in my room clearing 1.6 meters (what i would need for this aquarium) its kinda unlikelly, besides my room is only 4.5 meters long by about 3.2 wide.

BUT IT WOULD BE SO FREAKING AWESOME!!!!!

In the other side of the spectrum i got a litle taste of nanoreefing today in the same store they had a 15 gal aquarium with an ocellaris with its anemone (beautyfull thing to see), a yellow tang, all the cleaning crew and one shrimp and i have to say the simplicity but beauty of just the right fish (i would change the yellow tang for a Purble tang) its amazing... 30 gallons is already small but my god what a beautyfull thing to see, and i could have 4!!!!!

[rageybug]

A yellow tang in a 15g tank... yikes!

[sid101]

Ill take a picture of the tank tomorow and post it =).

[sid101]

Hmm, im really liking the idea of a nano reef with just 2 clowns and one anemone, (cleaning crew too off course).

[rageybug]

Some of the nicest reefs I've seen were in nano tanks. Many of them don't even have fish, it is just a coral tank. Just remember that if you have a problem in a small nano, it is probably not going to go well.

For example, if you have a fish die in a 50g tank, the water quality will not be effected too much, but if a fish dies in a 10g, it will effect the water 5 times as much. You really have to keep up with your water quality.

[sid101]

Yeah i have been thinking about really focusing on my water quality no matter what tank size i do, so i came up with the idea that i dont get to buy the sump (equipment here is incredibly overpriced just the overflow is ten times more expensive that in the north american states) i would like to mod a BIG cascade filter to host some mangles with live sand to at least have a litle more biological power besides i could put a small chiller there (thermoelectric one), the koralis powerheads are a no no i just cant find them but i have some good options regarding powerheads in here.

It's funny that when you were writing to me i was also writing to you lol!.

Today was a hard day at work, its really hard to work in excel when you are trying to figure out fish options and everything i need to buy lol.

[sid101]

So i have been doing some equipment research (doesn't mean i'm not reading like crazy about S/W aquaria but at the same time i wanted to check out some equipment so i saw these two things:

First it's this ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) amazing thing i think it's awesome because i can put some L/S or L/R in the filter part, some mangles and a litle lamp to go lighting counter cycle, besides the integrated UV would help me keeping an even better water quality!!!!.

Also i could mod it to hold a small 150 watt heater ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.])and this
([Only Registered Users Can See Links.])

What do you guy's think?

[AABatteries]

The skimmer combo thingy can't be much good for that price, plus it only has a 2/5 star rating.

[sid101]

Seems like it's some kind of gamble this thing, some peopel praise it and some detest it, i guess quality control it's not too good for ViaAqua and i have a problem with that because i would have to order it from overseas so if it comes broken getting another would be very hard...

I need to start reading reviews before i get into something...

What about this ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.])?

[AABatteries]

That is a great skimmer! [:

Here's ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) a good skimmer for a great price, but it would almost be overkill for your tank.

[sid101]

i spent 15 minutes drooling over my keyboard looking at that skimmer lol.

I found this ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) today, maybe could combine it with this ([Only Registered Users Can See Links.]) and maybe add a sump with good algae and manges just to improve biofiltering and water volume??

[labnjab]

With t-5's you shouldn't need a chiller. The t-5's in my 29 only change the temp a degree or so. I was looking at that too, lol. I may get one of those when I upgrade and just get better lights